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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
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reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion?
#26531334 - 03/12/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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while experiencing a dream it may seem just as real as 'reality'
a dream can fell like an illusion, but so can reality
from a neurological perspective, the dream is processed in a way very similar to waking reality
how is it that you can tell when you are awake and when you are asleep?
if you are "awake" and recognize the fact that you are awake, how does this differ from being "asleep" and recognizing that you are sleeping?
is there any difference?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26531421 - 03/12/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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during my dreams I never feel like I have to figure out if this is a dream, I just deal, or have the adventure, and continue to witness. because of that I think I know I am dreaming. especially if I redream some edits into the scenario.
Similarly I never ask if my waking life is a dream, it is too well connected with consistent reality. I said consistent not sane or consensual; waking for me is about consistency. if I check, it is what it is, and it is so even if I don't check. I cannot edit it.
All the same, the practice of meditation is a lot like an attempt at being awake while dreaming that you already were awake.
--------------------
_ đź§ _
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26531445 - 03/12/20 05:29 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Similarly I never ask if my waking life is a dream, it is too well connected with consistent reality. I said consistent not sane or consensual; waking for me is about consistency. if I check, it is what it is, and it is so even if I don't check. I cannot edit it.
hey RGV,
i'm curious about consistency,
can you give me some examples of this consistency?
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26531448 - 03/12/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ordinary reality is the better illusion. I think due to the simple fact that it’s far more lucid than dream space. Sometimes dreams aren’t remembered upon awakening. I’ve never been a lucid dreamer. That’s probably what you’re looking for, some lucid cosmonaut that considers the dream to be just as “real”. I think it could be, but there’s a difference in the makeup of the dream compared to conventional reality regardless of how lucid one is.
On the other hand, it’s easy to consider ordinary reality to be more convincing as I am awake typing this. Dreams just run and are assumed valid unless one is a lucid dreamer. Seems ordinary reality is the same. Plus, we all die and know this a temporary experience so it’s not like we know life is absolute and untouchable.
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Shr00mEater
Strange

Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26531450 - 03/12/20 05:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Dreaming is more of an illusion. My evidence is that, when I dream, the dreams continuously change very dramatically and in unexpected ways from night to night, or even moment to moment. Whereas, reality seems to be much more consistent.
If while awake, I place a cup of water next to the bed. I have a sense of confidence that it will be there in the morning, even while I am not conscious of it. However, with a dream, almost as soon as I wake up, my consciousness and recollection of the dream is vanishing, and if I placed a cup of water on a desk inside a the dream state.... there is very little confidence that the exact same cup, or desk, or bed, or room will remain consistent night after night.
I think the consistency of our waking experience is evidence for the “reality” of it, and the inconsistency of a dream state is indicative of a lack of “reality”
And you can’t really say “what if dreaming and reality are not differentiated”, the fact that we are using different terms to define these different states, betrays that we have already recognized differences between them.
I suppose it would be helpful to define the word “reality” better, I’m not quite sure how you are using it here.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater] 1
#26531467 - 03/12/20 05:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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by reality i mean what the senses pick up on and are then interpreted
in that sense a dream is reality where the perceptual input to the senses is of "non-physical" origin as we understand it
and by illusion i mean being the difference between what we perceive and what we see
if reality and dreams are both jelly beans, then may be they are just two different flavors of jelly beans
in that sense both waking and dreaming can potentially give access to reality.
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BooShow
Spooky



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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26531492 - 03/12/20 06:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: by reality i mean what the senses pick up on and are then interpreted
in that sense a dream is reality where the perceptual input to the senses is of "non-physical" origin as we understand it
and by illusion i mean being the difference between what we perceive and what we see
if reality and dreams are both jelly beans, then may be they are just two different flavors of jelly beans
in that sense both waking and dreaming can potentially give access to reality.
This.
-------------------- You are what is. That's all.
  
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Shr00mEater
Strange

Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: BooShow] 1
#26531676 - 03/12/20 08:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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What if one is a jelly bean, and the other isn’t?
I don’t agree that the whole of reality is simply our personal sense impressions and experiences. I am of the opinion that there is an actual external world of form and structure that our senses are interacting with. This does not seem, to me, to be the case while dreaming.
In my view, you aren’t speaking of reality itself, instead, it seems to me you are referring to differing states of consciousness, and calling one of these states “reality” and the other “dreams”.
Or, another way to say it: dream and waking states are both available within reality, but reality is not equivalent to waking or dreaming states, or any other state of consciousness.
One is a jellybean, the other is a skittle.
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BooShow
Spooky



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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater] 1
#26531713 - 03/12/20 08:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shr00mEater said: Or, another way to say it: dream and waking states are both available within reality, but reality is not equivalent to waking or dreaming states, or any other state of consciousness.
I agree. I think both waking and dreaming are two aspects of the same reality. Two sides of the same coin. However, I don't think dreaming is separate from reality, or they're 'not as real'. I think mind and matter are two illusory aspects of reality and that reality isn't limited to either of the two.
-------------------- You are what is. That's all.
  
Edited by BooShow (03/12/20 08:40 PM)
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26532036 - 03/13/20 02:57 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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just taking a sip of water changes the state of consciousness
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Shr00mEater
Strange

Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26532158 - 03/13/20 06:04 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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A change of consciousness doesn’t constitute a change in reality itself. We might say our personal view of reality has shifted when we experience a change of consciousness. But I don’t think this means reality at large has shifted.
It does change the perspective on reality for the viewer. But, not for the scene itself.
Example: go watch someone sleep. Kinda creepy, but you might notice how your waking mind, and their sleeping mind, seem to be occupying the same relative physical space, namely, the bedroom. Your experience and his experience of reality are totally different. Your watching a guy lay there, he thinks he is flying.
Ok...... so now here’s where it gets fucked. Hold your hand over your friends mouth and nose.......
Notice how you are able to dramatically affect your friends experience of his reality. He won’t be able to affect your view of reality from his dream state at all. Even if you were both asleep, meaning you are sharing the “reality”, you will find it very difficult to cause such dramatic effect while only one was asleep. The woke person has the effective power to end the dream reality of a sleeper. < -this sounds wokeAF , not meaning it that way, but I might make some bumper stickers.
The sleeper is ineffectual in ending, or even altering the state of an awake person.
I think this type of “effectiveness” in changing the conscious experience of a third party is good evidence that the waking state is primary to the dream state.
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater] 1
#26532167 - 03/13/20 06:28 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Can you be sure that you killing that sleeping person whilst you're awake is not a dream?
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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Shr00mEater
Strange

Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: pineninja] 1
#26532218 - 03/13/20 07:29 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
pineninja said: Can you be sure that you killing that sleeping person whilst you're awake is not a dream?
Lol, no, don’t kill him! I said he was your friend. It will just make him gasp and freak out a bit, and definitely will be awake and alive.
I’m not saying I am SURE of anything.
Edits: sorry had a phone call and didn’t want you to think I was advocating murder. LoL
However, going with that, I can be relatively convinced I didn’t kill my friend, when upon waking I find that he is still alive and it was an illusion. I admit, during the dream, I may not be able to tell if I had really killed him.
The inverse is, if I did kill him in reality, well, that’s it. No waking up from the illusion during this lifetime.
Edited by Shr00mEater (03/13/20 07:57 AM)
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AZZI
Stranger

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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater] 1
#26532224 - 03/13/20 07:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I typed but didn't send, that is very deep. I also didn't point out the same you mentioned.
I like to consider these things. Waking up from this life, and so forth.
Ramana said things about it.
-------------------- 🌸🌸🌸
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26532289 - 03/13/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I believe that reality is reformulated with each change of perception,
and perceptions are shifting millions of times per second.
mostly unnoticed, unless the perceiver is reformulating from a bigger picture
not two moments can possibly be the same,
unless of course all moments are just the same one moment.
so the one witnessing reality thru the eyeballs sees it as the same,
but another witness seeing reality thru a different perspective (ie the ears) catches the change.
how many times do you think your perceptions shift every second?
but if your friend is sleeping in the same room, only his body occupies that space,
is your friend just a body?
your friend is in a world hidden from your eyes. are you the arbiter of his reality because you believe that you're awake and you witness him asleep?
if you can't detect every single perceptual shift, then how can you be so sure of what is illusion and not?
and I'm confused too, I thought you murdered your friend.
how many dreams have you had where you died in your dreams?
how many times can you remember dying in this waking one?
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AZZI
Stranger

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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26532314 - 03/13/20 08:52 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ok this time I will say something,
For a lot of reasons, ShroomE did not kill his friend.
a) it was a statement of a thought experiment.
b) it was hypothetical scenario to describe idea.
c) he wasn't talking about himself, or anything he had done
d)
(important)
He said nothing about harming anyone -
The point (of the hypothetical scenario) is obviously wake them up.
_____
Again there was no harm intended but,
All of this said,
He was not intending you wake up your friend this way.
Explaining a point, which is a really good one.
  
Pay attention to details,
Don't words or anything confuse you.
-------------------- 🌸🌸🌸
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: AZZI]
#26532359 - 03/13/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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thank you for clarity, AZZI.
but again, if the waker is not aware of evry single perceptual shift,
then they cannot know every illusion,
and in that case, may be the woke person didn't end the reality of the "sleeper"
because the sleeper is dreaming from the perspective of their friend, looking at their own body
and then, it cannot be said that the sleeper cannot effect the wakers reality.
so now when the sleeper "wakes up" the waker disappears, becuase from the perspective of the sleeper, the waker was an illusion in the first place.
’ΥΠΝΟΣ.
ala HP Lovecraft: http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/hy.aspx
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Shr00mEater
Strange

Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: AZZI]
#26532362 - 03/13/20 09:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hmmmmm. I believe I am, in this reality, the arbiter of his experience. That’s how I was able to wake him and cause his “reality” to disappear.
I don’t suppose any of you have done the hotdog trick with a sleeping person? Video tape it and show him later. He will probably agree with you that it really did happen, regardless of his perception, or lack of.
In his dream reality, he will never be arbiter of my waking experience. No matter how much he wishes he won’t be able, to affect my perception of reality from within that dream state.
Is the question being posed still “which is more illusory”?
I feel like we are moving towards the question of “what is reality”, and that’s probably my fault since I picked on the definition and wish to separate reality from perception of reality.
Later, when I get a bit more time, I will do my best to post something using your definition and attempt to understand the perspective better, and possibly the original question better.
I do feel like this sounds a lot like a “brain in a vat” idea. Not a big fan, but, I will definitely try, so at least we don’t talk past each other.
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Shr00mEater
Strange

Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26532391 - 03/13/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ah, so the question has changed! So because I cannot dispel every possible perceptual error anyone ever could experience...... therefore, a dream state is equal to the waking reality?
I think, this is a bad way to draw a conclusion. Then again, I tend to think reality is an actual thing and not reformulating itself because of personal perspective.
I’m not purposely trying to be difficult. I promise. I will be back after I get done with work.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26532404 - 03/13/20 09:58 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Similarly I never ask if my waking life is a dream, it is too well connected with consistent reality. I said consistent not sane or consensual; waking for me is about consistency. if I check, it is what it is, and it is so even if I don't check. I cannot edit it.
hey RGV,
i'm curious about consistency,
can you give me some examples of this consistency?
before I typed this, I located your post and hit quote button. before that I finished a response to another post, before that I sat down in my chair and got into my compu-posture, before that I was imagining if I might like to go rollerblading after the water is delivered. before that I was discussing the shelves in the kitchen which we could arrange better, before that I returned my coffee cup to the dishwasher and put some spoons into it from the sink before that I was drinking my coffee and comparing some online store menus to locate mazar sharif hash before that I was in the kitchen making aeropress coffee before that I was filling the dishwasher and before that I was empying the dishwasher and putting away dishes from last night before that I ... ... ...
consistency and continuity of the waking experience can be explored in reverse this way with a continuity of physical spaces. between each position and action, steps were taken on actual surfaces between actual walls or under an actual sky. the story goes back to yesterday with a solid spatial consistency and regular passage of time.
the backwards consistency check or exercise can be coarse or fine grained wrt time, but if it is too course (i.e. if the time slices are larger than 2 minutes) then the jumps can resemble the jumps in dreams which can flow like real life but are more commonly tableau style, where most of the action is unfolding of a scene and jumping to the next or previous position and more unfolding of the space and characters - a more fluid spatial consistency with less temporal validation.
--------------------
_ đź§ _
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Shr00mEater
Strange

Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26532782 - 03/13/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ok. I lied. I prob won’t be back to post, though I do like the topic and enjoyed it a lot.
But..... I haven’t been high in a week, and I’m about to go get up on a bag of buds, and will most likely lose interest, or find something more interesting.... like junk food and TV and video games. lol 
I will leave you with this to consider; not knowing for certain if a thing is true, isn’t good justification for assuming that another thing is true.
Or, Just because I don’t know if this reality is an illusion or not, it is no reason to assume the dream state is, in fact, a separate reality.
Meaning, I may not be able to conclusively prove that dreaming isn’t a separate reality from this one, but, that doesn’t constitute evidence for it either. Aka, the absence of evidence is no evidence at all.
Did you have any positive evidence for the dream state being another actual reality, comparable to the one we are currently experiencing while we are typing this out, or reading it and understanding it?
Again, I’m not sure if I will care enough to post back after I get high. Just the way it goes. Sryz.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26533117 - 03/13/20 05:06 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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contrarywise,
if you always assume that "the absence of evidence is no evidence at all", is to believe that everything must have an objective cause. if you believe everything in waking reality is objective within waking reality, then the cause can only be obtained from knowledge gained within that wake reality. any reality that is outside of the wake reality may violate the objective causality of wake reality.
it seems like a self-perpetuating belief to stay within the paradigm of "the absence of evidence is no evidence at all" if there is a collection of causes that can violate those of wake reality, but only can begin to be understood with the non-self-fulfilling perspective that a reality is only physical or non-physical relative to perspective of the observer.
what kind of evidence would you need?
as you expand your awareness of reality as you smoke your buds, can you feel the shift in your thinking processes that allow you to think outside of the logic of the reality that you inhabited before you smoke the bud?
is an individuals own experience enough?
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26533128 - 03/13/20 05:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
before I typed this, I located your post and hit quote button. before that I finished a response to another post, before that I sat down in my chair and got into my compu-posture, before that I was imagining if I might like to go rollerblading after the water is delivered. before that I was discussing the shelves in the kitchen which we could arrange better, before that I returned my coffee cup to the dishwasher and put some spoons into it from the sink before that I was drinking my coffee and comparing some online store menus to locate mazar sharif hash before that I was in the kitchen making aeropress coffee before that I was filling the dishwasher and before that I was empying the dishwasher and putting away dishes from last night before that I ... ... ...
consistency and continuity of the waking experience can be explored in reverse this way with a continuity of physical spaces. between each position and action, steps were taken on actual surfaces between actual walls or under an actual sky. the story goes back to yesterday with a solid spatial consistency and regular passage of time.
the backwards consistency check or exercise can be coarse or fine grained wrt time, but if it is too course (i.e. if the time slices are larger than 2 minutes) then the jumps can resemble the jumps in dreams which can flow like real life but are more commonly tableau style, where most of the action is unfolding of a scene and jumping to the next or previous position and more unfolding of the space and characters - a more fluid spatial consistency with less temporal validation.
did you get to go rollerblading? i love rollerblading.
how did you come up with the 2-minute interval for time slices - was this supposed to be an example, or did you pick that figure based on personal experience?
you located, and sat, and discussed, and returned, and drank, and filled, and emptied...these are all physical actions that you could be witness to observing. however you also said that you imagined, what happens to the time consistency then?
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Shr00mEater
Strange

Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26533267 - 03/13/20 06:23 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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You have intrigued me well, I think I will wait for rgv to respond first tho. I am very much in line with his thinking here. I think a good evidence would show a consistent pattern to this other world. Dream states change continually, meaning, we don’t return to the same “other reality” night after night. But, for the love of god, I seem to keep waking up in this one!
I will clarify a few things you said here.
Quote:
thealienthatategod said: contrarywise,
if you always assume that "the absence of evidence is no evidence at all", is to believe that everything must have an objective cause. if you believe everything in waking reality is objective within waking reality, then the cause can only be obtained from knowledge gained within that wake reality. any reality that is outside of the wake reality may violate the objective causality of wake reality.
I am not assuming everything in waking reality is objective, and am not saying the “absence of evidence” cannot possibly be a kind of evidence. But, I think there needs to be more to build a case, that’s why I was asking for positive evidence.
...reality is only physical or non-physical relative to perspective of the observer.
could you elaborate on this a bit more?
what kind of evidence would you need?
Already mentioned the consistency thing, but while typing I thought of another piece of the puzzle for me might be repeatable testability that can be communicated to others in this reality. maybe there is a test that could be done from within a dream state that, while in that dream state one could communicate to another person who is in their own dream state? But, I am not a dream expert, and maybe it would help to have a lucid dreamer weigh in.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26533410 - 03/13/20 07:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
before I typed this, I located your post and hit quote button. before that I finished a response to another post, before that I sat down in my chair and got into my compu-posture, before that I was imagining if I might like to go rollerblading after the water is delivered. before that I was discussing the shelves in the kitchen which we could arrange better, before that I returned my coffee cup to the dishwasher and put some spoons into it from the sink before that I was drinking my coffee and comparing some online store menus to locate mazar sharif hash before that I was in the kitchen making aeropress coffee before that I was filling the dishwasher and before that I was empying the dishwasher and putting away dishes from last night before that I ... ... ...
consistency and continuity of the waking experience can be explored in reverse this way with a continuity of physical spaces. between each position and action, steps were taken on actual surfaces between actual walls or under an actual sky. the story goes back to yesterday with a solid spatial consistency and regular passage of time.
the backwards consistency check or exercise can be coarse or fine grained wrt time, but if it is too course (i.e. if the time slices are larger than 2 minutes) then the jumps can resemble the jumps in dreams which can flow like real life but are more commonly tableau style, where most of the action is unfolding of a scene and jumping to the next or previous position and more unfolding of the space and characters - a more fluid spatial consistency with less temporal validation.
did you get to go rollerblading? i love rollerblading.
how did you come up with the 2-minute interval for time slices - was this supposed to be an example, or did you pick that figure based on personal experience?
you located, and sat, and discussed, and returned, and drank, and filled, and emptied...these are all physical actions that you could be witness to observing. however you also said that you imagined, what happens to the time consistency then?
it's an example, and 2 or 3 mins is a natural rhythm of back remembering for me.
--------------------
_ đź§ _
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Shr00mEater
Strange


Registered: 10/17/18
Posts: 985
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26533474 - 03/13/20 08:40 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Just had my wife try this test as well. She agrees. It seems to validate the waking reality as less of an illusion than the dreaming reality.
I suggested, that she might still be, in fact, dreaming and I am a part of that “reality”, and making up some elaborate hoax to keep her asleep.
We both laughed.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26535077 - 03/14/20 03:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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are you willing to interject yourself into the experiment?
if you give me a name and a place I will try to find you in Dreamworld - send it to me privately of course if you don't feel comfortable posting publicly, it doesn't have to be your 'real' name, but it should be a name that you use to go by, and a place that you have an emotional attachment to. if you are a daily cannabis smoker this is harder to accomplish.
reality is only physical or non-physical relative to perspective of the observer -
by this I mean, that an individual will interpret events within reality according to awareness and understanding of nature. what the body can touch, smells, sees, hears, tastes is less than one millionth of reality. for example, the mantis shrimp does not have binocular vision, but instead has trinocular vision, this allows them to see circularly polarized light. we know that circular polarized light exists, but cannot experience it with our bare binocular human vision. we are only conscious of the material surroundings that we are aware of. the mind input writes the mind output that is read.
a consistent experiment that I have tested time and time again involves sleeping in a room where I have a 6500k light turned on. when I do this I become blind in my dreams, I can feel my body and feel the dream world with my hands, but I don't have any vision. when I don't sleep with the 6500k light on my eyeballs function in Dreamworld. so my physical wake reality body is reading the input of the light, and this alters how the mind output is created in Dreamworld.
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
it's an example, and 2 or 3 mins is a natural rhythm of back remembering for me.
that makes me wonder, if the smaller the time slice, the more articulated the memory would be?
Edited by thealienthatategod (03/14/20 03:34 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26535138 - 03/14/20 04:18 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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yes but you need more time to look back through the day, sometimes i do that
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26535212 - 03/14/20 05:06 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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how do you make time?
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Shr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26535235 - 03/14/20 05:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I usually don’t. I am horrible at scheduling.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26536086 - 03/15/20 07:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: how do you make time?
I do not think that I do make it. I just use any traces of it that are lying around.
I am not really into making things up, unless they are really useful, and time is not my invention, I rely on it being there, and it is.
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kitten6
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26536172 - 03/15/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Maybe reality is just our primary reality and dreams are also realities but we are polarised towards this reality for the time being. Maybe like our bodies being vessels (magnets) which attract soul at certain times.
Soul is the immortal part of us, the part which connects us to the places that transcend time. Or rather the part of us which is unaffected by time.
When a soul is polarised, it doesn't mean that it sticks harder to this body, it just means that for the moment that's where the soul spends the majority of time for the vessels life time like a probability distribution. This is why most of the time your soul is here in reality but when you go off to dream, you will find yourself in all kinds of places, maybe even your past lives.
Kinda like electrons and atoms with their probability distributions. and shit like schrodingers equation and hamiltonians and that shit.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: kitten6] 1
#26536252 - 03/15/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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wow, that's an interesting perspective.
i had a dream two weeks ago where someone was throwing magnets at me in the dream, and these magnets kept sticking all over me, and i was exasperated and i screamed that i wish all these magnets would just stop sticking to me, and i asked the person throwing them to please stop. in a dream someone once told me that 'soul traps' are magnetic in nature.
after reading rgv's post i was thinking about how in this wake reality while the body appears to go through a linear time stream, as rgv pointed out in his other post - ie - from 9-9:30 i was in the living room, from 10-11 i was at the gym, but the mind doesn't follow along with you in that time stream, so even through your body was in the living room from 9-9:30 your mind could have been reliving a childhood experience, because the mind is not bound to this linear stream. this much is obvious, but in contrast-
what's interesting in dream time is how 2 minutes can go by in wake reality but in that 2 minutes you could live 200 years in Dreamworld, and feel the passage of those 200 years. sometimes i'll set a timer to go off on 2 minute intervals while i sleep, and see how much dream time i can get to pass in those 2 minute intervals - i am able to slip in and out of sleeping very quickly, so it does not disturb me. it seems the deeper the dream state the slower time can be made to pass in dreamworld so more eperience can take place.
i think it's clear that the state of consciousness can both slow down and speed up time in both wake reality and sleep reality. Time is clearly part of the illusion for both, but time is a different kind of illusion in dreamworld.
i obviously have a deep psychological fascination with time, so may be this is just my dreamtime experiences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rabbit_Project
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26536331 - 03/15/20 10:13 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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In dream space, I sometimes become interested in the timeless unfolding of what is (like a thicket expanding and breathing) and I notice nodes which appear and then open like elbows and knees or piano hinges, and then just are abundantly integral with the matrix of freely expanding sensation and vision, unencumbered by 3-d properties, i.e. sturctures can pass through and beyond others while in 3-d they would bang and crash or squish.
I like to enter this dream space time while awake as well. This way I can engage with more than 6 impossible things before breakfast.
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kitten6
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26536383 - 03/15/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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well one time not too long ago I had probably the most immersive and crazy dream in my life. I even got knocked out in that dream and eventually woke up again into the first dream. The dream I had when I was knocked out was pretty incomprehensible but still pretty immersive.
Probably the scariest thing that happened was when a massive shower of meteorites hit and destroyed everything, and there was a massive explosions everywhere. It was pretty trippy as well I think it was as if the meteorites where sentient and higher dimensional.
It's pretty mad that this shit just goes down in our sleep and still scientists are struggling to explain why the fuck we dreaming.
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Shr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: kitten6] 2
#26536389 - 03/15/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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There was a mention of dying in dreams earlier, what is that about?
What is the significance of that?
I’m curious, I know next to nothing about dreams.... I just enjoy having them, while I am having them.
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26536457 - 03/15/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's interesting that many dream experiences would be called symptoms of "mental illness" if one was awake.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: kitten6]
#26536467 - 03/15/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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if science could explain why we dream, would it give us any more understanding about what we're doing when we're not dreaming?
on death, i was just curious how often other people die in their dreams, or how often they die in a wake reality and wake up in a dream that is apparently a new wake reality, if that second one sounds too strange, then just stick with the first one.
i'm still posing the original question too, why are illusions recognized as illusions in dreams, but in wake reality these illusions are not seen as illusions. why is it so hard to believe in eyes? if you wear glasses in wake reality do you wear glasses in your dreams?
if dreams are the opposite of possible, what gives wake reality its potency? i've always thought it was peculiar that families don't wake up and share their dreams with each other - at least not in the culture i'm from - i wish more people would openly and freely talk about their dreams. are we supposed to keep them a secret?
i have a reoccurring dream where i'm trying to turn off a 'reincarnation machine' it looks like a space ship that's gold and gray. it's parked in a valley on a green grass field surrounded by mountains. there is no entrance, so I can't get in.
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26536479 - 03/15/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
. . . i've always thought it was peculiar that families don't wake up and share their dreams with each other - at least not in the culture i'm from - i wish more people would openly and freely talk about their dreams. are we supposed to keep them a secret?
wouldn't that be great - to share our dreams over breakfast and coffee! How intimate.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#26536689 - 03/15/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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i wonder if more people shared their dreams with one another, they might see the synchronicity within that sleep reality...and it would become more real to them.
could this cause the sleep reality to supersede this one in realness potency?
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DividedQuantum
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 2
#26536718 - 03/15/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: if science could explain why we dream, would it give us any more understanding about what we're doing when we're not dreaming?
on death, i was just curious how often other people die in their dreams, or how often they die in a wake reality and wake up in a dream that is apparently a new wake reality, if that second one sounds too strange, then just stick with the first one.
i'm still posing the original question too, why are illusions recognized as illusions in dreams, but in wake reality these illusions are not seen as illusions. why is it so hard to believe in eyes? if you wear glasses in wake reality do you wear glasses in your dreams?
if dreams are the opposite of possible, what gives wake reality its potency? i've always thought it was peculiar that families don't wake up and share their dreams with each other - at least not in the culture i'm from - i wish more people would openly and freely talk about their dreams. are we supposed to keep them a secret?
i have a reoccurring dream where i'm trying to turn off a 'reincarnation machine' it looks like a space ship that's gold and gray. it's parked in a valley on a green grass field surrounded by mountains. there is no entrance, so I can't get in.
I have died in my dreams a few times, but one instance sticks out very vividly. I was in some sort of Middle-Eastern market, just like in Raiders of the Lost Ark. I was in some sort of alley, and there were vendors everywhere with their stands and baskets, and the buildings were all of sandstone just like in the movie. Some guy walks up to me, gets out a Colt .45 semi-auto pistol -- the old, original kind that used to be a military sidearm in WWII and Vietnam, and it was black -- and he shoots me right in the chest. This was the most painful thing that ever happened to me, and it was in a dream. And I died and woke up, scared as hell. I'll never forget that.
The thing about dreams is that they're very close to consciousness with no real object, somewhat similar to the goal of all meditation. So the whole dogmatic insistence about consciousness being an epiphenomenal, deterministic phenomenon really leaves no room for dreams, if you think about it. It is without any sensory input at all. Dreams by definition happen with no sensory input. So consciousness must have a dimension and an actuality that is far beyond the needs of the organism. And of course, all animals dream. I see it in my sleeping dogs every day. So consciousness has some obvious independence.
Also, dreams are a huge part of indigenous cultures. Indians in North America have a huge cultural dimension based on dreams, and they are very important to most Indian tribes because they are perceived as offering lessons to employ in life, and can also bestow visions of future events, like the characteristics of particular hunts. I think actually that our culture is unique in minimizing dreams, because most cultures I have studied indeed emphasize them.
I would think dreams would be a very great topic for science to address, but until we get a better perspective on consciousness, it's probably useless. As I point out above, when you really think about the ramifications of dreams, they rather contradict materialist science. So I suppose it's a case of, well, yeah, pretty interesting but probably not important, let's just continue to sweep it under the rug. But neuroscience will have to deal with it sooner or later. Afaik, they don't know that much yet.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26538366 - 03/16/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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thanks for sharing your dream DQ, I have had a similar dream where i was shot in the chest with a shotgun. i couldn't get into my own house as someone was stalking me, so I went into a neighbors house, and explained to them what was going on. the person stalking me broke into the neighbors house, and killed them, as well as me. i remember knowing that I was dying as my neighbors body was lying over mine.
the dictionary definition of dream is: a series of images ideas emotions and sensations occurring involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep.
oneirology, the study of dreams, defines a dream as an activity in the brain that occurs during REM sleep and it's seen as a form of thinking that occurs under minimal brain direction. thoughts create dreams, because dreams are thoughts.
if dreams are a type of thought process, then the brain possibly provides the hardware and processing power needed to render this non verbal thought process into what is experienced as a dream. nature does not allocate resources trivially, so what could be the reason that we go into this state?
a lot of what science knows about sleep comes from studying disordered sleep patterns like sleep walking. in a sleepwalking state a person is stuck between full awake and NREM sleep and we do know in this state there is more hypersynchronous delta wave activity.
if you are reading this from wake reality right now, then you feel conscious, but we also know that thru a lucid dream we can have this same feeling of consciousness while in the dream reality. if we can be self-aware that we are dreaming in a dream, can we become self aware in wake reality that we are also dreaming? becoming conscious in a dream is like snapping out of a trance, because suddenly you can see the illusions all around you.
wake reality is constantly streaming data to the brain via perceptions, in sleep reality it seems the brain emulates these perceptions and creates whole vivid worlds for these perceptions to play in.
is there a Planck Constant in Dreamworld to measure the blocks of dream matter?
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26538372 - 03/16/20 11:02 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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the mostest awake that I feel in dreams is when I am having a flying dream. I can feel the air I am breathing and flying through, and I feel the body floating in a way that is not ordinary but very natural. It is exciting and infrequent but wonderful to experience or remember.
I do not suppose that "nature" has purpose or design especially wrt dreams; but when complex systems evolve, side effects naturally occur (without design), and if these are significantly beneficial or if significantly harmful, then the species survival is affected, otherwise it is just an emergent feature of life like a freckle or like an earlobe.
Dreams are the earlobes of consciousness.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 2
#26538394 - 03/16/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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but if dreams are just thoughts, then why use all this energy to render these thoughts into a virtual reality?
when in the dream reality the brain treats perceptions the same way it treats perceptions in wake reality. dream reality can have some pretty stunning 3d rendering.
we seem to have evidence that animals dream, but i've always wondered if trees dream, and if they did dream, what would they dream about? do trees dream about being a bird and flying in the sky?
if i sleep in the same room that i have fungus growing in, there is a greatly increased chance that there will be fungus growing all over everything in my dream, almost like we enter the same shared dream reality.
"For those who would dream, there is reality." -Robert A. Monroe
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26538917 - 03/16/20 03:52 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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thoughts are like v/r word based thoughts and conversations with one's self are low baud rate v/r.
there is an economy to linguistic thinking, but it is not the only way to think at all.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26538989 - 03/16/20 04:18 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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i wonder what reality thinks
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DividedQuantum
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26539189 - 03/16/20 06:39 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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According to David Bohm's thesis of the implicate and explicate orders, our waking reality takes place in the explicate order, and dreamscapes occur in the implicate order. The implicate order is essentially consciousness, but it's complex. Anyway, the wavefunction of quantum mechanics is at the level of the implicate order.
So the explicate order is that realm described by classical Newtonian mechanics, or classical physics. It is that part of reality detected by our senses. According to Bohm, the explicate order is a special sub-set of the implicate order, from which the explicate order is "projected." So, the implicate order projects our 3-D reality, and then re-absorbs it, over and over very rapidly. The "collapse of the wavefunction" in quantum mechanics describes the moment of projection from the implicate to the explicate order. Quantum mechanics gives no account of the continuation of this process, which is a sort of re-superposition, or an absorption of the explicate projection by the implicate order.
Anyway, by this hypothesis, our waking reality has the distinction of occurring in the explicate order. Our dreams do not enter the explicate order because we are not awake -- they remain in the implicate order, where there are no constraints, but still orderly perceptions. I think this would be the difference you have been wondering about in this thread.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26539427 - 03/16/20 08:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I do not suppose that "nature" has purpose or design especially wrt dreams; but when complex systems evolve, side effects naturally occur (without design), and if these are significantly beneficial or if significantly harmful, then the species survival is affected, otherwise it is just an emergent feature of life like a freckle or like an earlobe.
Dreams are the earlobes of consciousness.
The quantum state of the self would suggest that dreams may have “purpose”. There is a difference between Newtonian nature and the quantum psychic observer entity thing.
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AZZI
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26539659 - 03/16/20 11:11 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: but if dreams are just thoughts, then why use all this energy to render these thoughts into a virtual reality?
when in the dream reality the brain treats perceptions the same way it treats perceptions in wake reality. dream reality can have some pretty stunning 3d rendering.
we seem to have evidence that animals dream, but i've always wondered if trees dream, and if they did dream, what would they dream about? do trees dream about being a bird and flying in the sky?
if i sleep in the same room that i have fungus growing in, there is a greatly increased chance that there will be fungus growing all over everything in my dream, almost like we enter the same shared dream reality.
"For those who would dream, there is reality." -Robert A. Monroe
If not for you.
Sanity is hard to come by.
Love, Az
Love your posts full of color.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: DividedQuantum] 2
#26539931 - 03/17/20 04:45 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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thanks DQ! re-absorption sounds like a channel switch, receiving input at one frequency vs another. once we tune off of the consensus reality radio station we enter Dreamworld. i have noticed that during the channel switch is the easiest time to collect unfiltered information, to take back into wake reality, that i can then document. it's def higher order information.
it seems then dreams are part of some higher dimensional structure. with reality emerging from the slice upon which it is embedded, so it seems that wake reality has just an embedded slice of the code of sleep reality. i'm very curios about information flowing between these two states by staying tuned to both frequencies simultaneously. has anyone else tried to do this and written about their impressions of this state?
i like the analogy of a camera recording ripples on the water. modern neuroscience is like the camera only detecting the changes in the ripples on the waters surface, the camera cannot experience what it is to be the water itself - who sees the ripples from the perspective of the interaction between water molecules and the endlessly dynamic agitations. within literally means against the inside.
thank you for the piano music Az, i like that, sometimes i get so confused, piano music is so clear
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26540019 - 03/17/20 06:01 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I do not suppose that "nature" has purpose or design especially wrt dreams; but when complex systems evolve, side effects naturally occur (without design), and if these are significantly beneficial or if significantly harmful, then the species survival is affected, otherwise it is just an emergent feature of life like a freckle or like an earlobe.
Dreams are the earlobes of consciousness.
The quantum state of the self would suggest that dreams may have “purpose”. There is a difference between Newtonian nature and the quantum psychic observer entity thing.
that quantum stuff keeps trying to mean something significant but I find no consensus there at all. could be misdirection.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26540371 - 03/17/20 09:22 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: thanks DQ! re-absorption sounds like a channel switch, receiving input at one frequency vs another. once we tune off of the consensus reality radio station we enter Dreamworld. i have noticed that during the channel switch is the easiest time to collect unfiltered information, to take back into wake reality, that i can then document. it's def higher order information.
it seems then dreams are part of some higher dimensional structure. with reality emerging from the slice upon which it is embedded, so it seems that wake reality has just an embedded slice of the code of sleep reality. i'm very curios about information flowing between these two states by staying tuned to both frequencies simultaneously. has anyone else tried to do this and written about their impressions of this state?
i like the analogy of a camera recording ripples on the water. modern neuroscience is like the camera only detecting the changes in the ripples on the waters surface, the camera cannot experience what it is to be the water itself - who sees the ripples from the perspective of the interaction between water molecules and the endlessly dynamic agitations. within literally means against the inside.
thank you for the piano music Az, i like that, sometimes i get so confused, piano music is so clear
Right, that's well said. The explicate order, or consensus reality, is only a relatively autonomous sub-totality. The implicate order is enfolded everywhere in the universe -- this is known as the phenomenon of nonlocality -- and it unfolds in this universe into explicate structures and functions, those structures and functions undergo some subtle change, and then the explicate order re-folds into the implicate order. This interchange occurs, let's say, trillions of times a second, so that we see the Buddhists are right when they say all is impermanence. The stability we see is only relative and approximate.
Naturally, the implicate order, then, is a more fundamental level of reality than the explicate. And we have Newtonian mechanics morphing in the 20th century into quantum mechanics. These two branches of physics describe, respectively, these two orders. The implicate order is the source of consciousness, and one could think of the explicate order as the universal contents of that foundation of consciousness, that are constantly evolving.
The implicate order and explicate order are not sharply separated, however. The explicate order is just a sub-whole, whose source and essence is the implicate order. Once again, nonlocality, which has been confirmed completely scientifically, is the confusing manifestation of the implicate order in our 4D spacetime.
Indeed, the implicate order is a higher-dimensional structure, and dreams indeed are of this nature as well. So dreams, even though they do not occur in consensus reality, are no less real than waking reality. They are simply disconnected from the explicate order, which in the West receives all the emphasis. In many cultures, such as Native American culture, or even in large part India today, the implicate order is what is emphasized culturally. So we're all hopelessly biased. In any case, the atomistic, materialist, Cartesian, Newtonian framework is seen within this schema, and indeed even from the point of view of quantum theory itself, not to be in any way fundamental.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26540608 - 03/17/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I cannot say that I find any comfort in casting the impermanence referenced in Buddhism as supporting any modern theory using implicate and explicate dimensional non-locality, which are not at all part of Buddhist canon, even if some of Buddhism (notably Tibetan) include accounts of supramundane events (magic, telepresence, clairvoyance, etc.).
Does adding a tangential reference to Buddhism make this explanation stand more solidly? How does Quantum theory creep into it? Does the word "quantum" add authority?
Are you really suggesting that implicate reality is one joined space where all of our minds may overlap (in non-locality space)? I kind of agree with that as a potential explanation for remote viewing, and some other kinds of real but unpredictable psychic phenomena, but I do not claim to understand any of it.
Maybe it is a good place to look scientifically, but what kind of laboratory would be suitable?
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DividedQuantum
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26540731 - 03/17/20 12:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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The reference to impermanence is that, in the implicate order, literally nothing is permanent. That's all. I'm not trying to appeal to authority to sound cool.
By quantum mechanics, I mean literally the formalism and science of quantum mechanics. I solved the Schrodinger equation probably a thousand times in college, and have been reading about it and related matters for the last twenty years. Once again, I'm not trying to sound cool. The implicate order is, in an approximated but real sense, what manifests as the wavefunction, which is the statistical solution of the Schrodinger equation (or in relativistic field theory, the Dirac equation). In Bohmian mechanics, the probablistic nature of the wavefunction is interpreted as an averaging over the random fluctuations of the quantum potential, which is given by a field relation that does not depend on distance, only form. So ultimately, the whole notion of unreality in popular conceptions of quantum mechanics is merely an averaging over ignorance, especially since we cannot know the initial conditions of a quantum experiment.
Implicate reality is not a space, it is higher-dimensional. Our familiar dimension of space is an explicate projection from a ground of reality that is common to space, time, mass, and energy, but transcends all of them. Indeed, it may be supposed that an individual's consciousness may overlap another individual's in the implicate order, but I'm not as interested in that because it's so hard to understand. Naturally, the implicate order hypothesis could give a basis for paranormal and parapsychological activity. Ymmv.
Scientifically, the rub is that all of the different interpretations of quantum mechanics, and there are several, are as yet experimentally equivalent. Meaning, we cannot yet peer deeper beneath the quantum surface, so we do not know which of the ontological, or many-worlds, or Copenhagen, or decoherence, etc. is correct. Until our technology improves, we can all hold strong opinions either way.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26540865 - 03/17/20 02:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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when lucidity is gained in a dream, to me it feels like breaking through to a new presence. everything that was confusing before melts away.
why does it feel like dreams take place within physical reality before this lucid state is achieved? why is it so hard to see the illusion, but once you do, breaking thru into the new presence, the confusion about believing that you are in physical reality just melts away?
just as consciousness lies across a spectrum, so does lucidity - it's not strictly an on or off matter. in the fully lucid state the conditions of both realities are fully remembered simultaneously. it does seem that the more familiar you become with dreams, the easier it is to recognize a dream.
misdirection is about perspective, when insights are clear, orientation becomes corrected freed from cloudy disorientation. an observer may be self-reflective, but a detached observer is a witness - de-embedding themselves. as some high level unity, the concept of separately acting individuals seems to fall away.
we live our lives from behind our eyes, in our own personal worlds, the brain generating, perceiving, and processing information, and we experience this information as our subjective world - consensus reality or Dreamworld reality.
"If the outside world fell to ruins, one of us would be capable of building it up again, for mountain and stream, tree and leaf, root and blossom, all that is shaped by nature lies modeled in us."
--Herman Hesse
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26540874 - 03/17/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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why invoke anything Quantum related if you are trying to say something specific?
for a moment I believed that you were forming a theory of higher dimensional spaces where implicate overlaps become explicate.
but I see now you do not mean spaces when you talk of higher dimensions. It could be that my grasp of gravity and light is too weak to get your meaning. but I am glad you are not trying to use Buddhism to gain acceptance of the idea.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26540884 - 03/17/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I only bring up quantum mechanics because it is intimately tied to the idea of the implicate order. What is supposed by people who subscribe to the implicate order hypothesis is that the wavefunction literally describes part of the activity of the implicate order, and the solutions in field theory even more so. I'm sorry if that is something you do not like.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26541072 - 03/17/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It makes little sense to me as relates to reality versus dreaming.
I can see a wave function describing a defined system, even a complex ones with enough points being modeled, but I don't think about a wave function as satisfactory explanation for much that I am facing. Maybe in the future when I have a star trek transporter in my room, but at the moment it does not jive with life much. Are we not talking about subatomic particles when we get into the wave function work with which you have experience?
Some people think that consciousness is in the domain of Quantum physics, but this has not seemed to make sense to me. The issue of the observer and the double slit experiments is unfortunate, of course wave and particle combine in fields and play out according to the mechanics.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26541092 - 03/17/20 04:06 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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if space has an infinite number of dimensions, there is no somewhere to begin until a point is fixed by a will - direction introduced for its own convenience, as we know there is no way to detect absolute motion in empty space.
matter and energy distort space, but space also affects mass, distorting the motions of energy and matter. in this sense space and matter are continuous as they are just different aspects of a higher order.
dreaming or perceiving of doing something is equivalent to actually doing it.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 2
#26541186 - 03/17/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: It makes little sense to me as relates to reality versus dreaming.
I can see a wave function describing a defined system, even a complex ones with enough points being modeled, but I don't think about a wave function as satisfactory explanation for much that I am facing. Maybe in the future when I have a star trek transporter in my room, but at the moment it does not jive with life much. Are we not talking about subatomic particles when we get into the wave function work with which you have experience?
Some people think that consciousness is in the domain of Quantum physics, but this has not seemed to make sense to me. The issue of the observer and the double slit experiments is unfortunate, of course wave and particle combine in fields and play out according to the mechanics.
Oh you're right, my posts have gotten a bit tortured. Just sticking to the qualitative ideas of the implicate order was my original intention, but I brought in some of the more technical stuff. I'm not going to belabor it; you have a point. But I think anyone who wishes to investigate these ideas further could possibly go down a very deep rabbit hole, and there are at some point many intersections with some of the salient ideas in science. But this is not really the time or place for rabbit holes, I agree.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26541431 - 03/17/20 07:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: dreaming or perceiving of doing something is equivalent to actually doing it.
I’m just going to go ahead and catapult myself off this statement.
What is the standard for making an equivalence between what amounts to sense consciousness and non sense consciousness ?
I don’t see a fundamental difference between dream consciousness and the consciousness of imagination during ordinary waking reality. One tends to be more lucid and potent than the other but is it fair to say they operate on the same part of mind?
At any rate I’m going to assume they are the same part of mind. And I don’t see how not bringing technicalities of qm into this isn’t helpful. Anything else science is used to explain subjective experiences. Since the quantum state projects a relative reality collapsed where alternate non collapsed realities are shown to have substance through experiment I think it’s fair to call a given collapsed reality a “reality tunnel” in the sense that it’s a holographic projection from the grid of a space that transcends it. Each reality tunnel depends on the observer participating in its progressive collapse in a holographic reality. Since it’s projected and it’s Newtonian functions are only relative it doesn’t actually take up “space” as we are bound to understand it.
I’ll just toss this out there. I don’t really believe that we are without a connection with the psychic quantum state. Possibly we vibrate in and out from the collapsing Newtonian world back through into a hyperspace where consciousness is the vehicle. The body exists as a probabilistic superposition until the psyche bounces back from hyperspace collapsing the wave function. This carries the idea that the psyche is accumulating information in hyperspace where it comes back and informs the brain through a collapse while making material changes to the brain without being produced by it. It is the “soul” in the materialism.
So dreaming IMHO being most vivid is a soupy meandering through a body that is alive but not woke and the vibratory surge through a hyper dimensional medium that becomes more apparent.
Idk what to make out of this other than to say that ordinary experience, as in the hard stuff of materialism, is a holographic experience where parallel lives, worlds etc. are constantly operating on their own collapsed projections. The psyche being able to detach from Newtonian reality likely operates multiple lives and experiences simultaneously. It wouldn’t be perceived or understood that way because of the Newtonian stream of vibration but remembering it’s only a relative projection from a higher vibratory entanglement where parallel realities are able to operate in a transcendent simultaneous way.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26542097 - 03/18/20 06:39 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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on connections to physic quantum states...
in certain states (induced via meditation, drugs, sleep) the brain has access to higher order information. what I found difficult at first was copying down impressions of this higher order information, while staying in that non-physical state. just tying to successfully copy a piece of the this high-order information can be a challenge, because you can't use a piece of low-information in the copying of the higher information. the information does not adhere to logical thought, so how to return with the information to the place of logical thought? the higher order information is instantaneous and i was trying to also bring it into a time stream.
i would go forward in time, and write letters to my past self. disorienting, yes, because my past self was getting all these letters, and the information within those letters was arriving out of order. the high order information selects from the possible states of low order information, and thru this, rules out other states to generate information.
in this two way flow of information between states, a very powerful and finely-tuned feedback loop can be created - and information emerges. everything is a manifestation of this complexification of information.
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"'Tis the voice of the Lobster; I heard him declare, "You have baked me too brown, I must sugar my hair." As a duck with its eyelids, so he with his nose Trims his belt and his buttons, and turns out his toes.'
--Alice
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Yellow Pants


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 2
#26542824 - 03/18/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think you could even say that in this ordinary-psychic feedback loop what constitutes memory and it’s development over time is both of those orders. Which would mean that the psychic factor brings it back through vibration into a non local space before it slings back into ordinary reality gathering more data.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26542828 - 03/18/20 02:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: I think you could even say that in this ordinary-psychic feedback loop what constitutes memory and it’s development over time is both of those orders. Which would mean that the psychic factor brings it back through vibration into a non local space before it slings back into ordinary reality gathering more data.
Right, I think this is a very good observation.
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Yellow Pants


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26543420 - 03/18/20 08:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: I think you could even say that in this ordinary-psychic feedback loop what constitutes memory and it’s development over time is both of those orders. Which would mean that the psychic factor brings it back through vibration into a non local space before it slings back into ordinary reality gathering more data.
Right, I think this is a very good observation.
Thanks
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26544039 - 03/19/20 07:20 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said:
Quote:
thealienthatategod said: dreaming or perceiving of doing something is equivalent to actually doing it.
I’m just going to go ahead and catapult myself off this statement...
forget answers from quantum physics, pretty math, and contemporary science babble with respect to consciousness. That is science for energy, motive power, computing, and communications. Mind is not those things. a computer is not a mind.
if something is dreamed, or remembered, or experienced, then the neurons that represent that thingness *all* fire simultaneously just the same as when they did or do while initially experiencing. this is a de facto fundamental principle for associative memory to exist and to function in a living brain.
As to whether they *all* fire or not, the clarity and intensity of memory recollection, or of perception being one thing or another is relative to how much of the same constellation of simultaneous nerve firing is going on. The more of the same set, the more of the same mental actuality emerges, and the less disputable the memory or perception is. How much similarity is required for some perception or even mistaken perception is a moot issue, and will depend on more complete and accurate high speed brain activity scans - right now the nmr type heat maps are relevant for slow transitions, much slower than 15 clear perceptions per second which is something we need to resolve this.
While dreaming, a scene can be resolving from fog basically reconstructing from a multitude of partially matching associative arrangements - chimeras created from memories but blended dynamically to suit the mind's momentum of meanings (related to some central emotional or body feeling pattern) in electrical fields from related neuron patterns encoding fragments of memory (those being the same neurons that fired during waking experiences).
None of that work requires any reference to quantum states of sub atomic particles. If you believe that - you are dreaming.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26544057 - 03/19/20 07:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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the human brain in consensus reality seems like a logic filter trap, selectively extracting certain modulating frequencies from a field. in modes of operating not based in consensus reality the logic- trap-filters seems diminished. if we see the past as a non-material memory, then the past is also retained by our universes living present, and the future becomes the synergistic result.
consensus reality conscious states are coupled with large-scale coherence across the brain - this activity is highly synchronized in beta and gamma frequency bands. what's interesting is the integration and disintegration of the above assemblies is coupled to the theta cycle, and the shifts can happen abruptly and simultaneously.
on shifting from consensus reality to dreamworld reality, there's an inversion of the senses. it seems the more aware we are in a dream, the more aware we are of our perceptions within the dream, and this seems to be linked to memory. dream recall is linked to how memory is stored in the brain. why does the brain enter a state of amnesia, sedating the waking memory during sleep?
in oneirology, memory collapse is the term used to define the moment when the stream-of-consciousness of a dream phases outside of waking memory access, breaking concentration into incoherent rhythms. certainly, the brain can and will quickly adapt to how we focus our intentions. it is through intent that the interest in dreaming is facilitated. through this interest in Dreamworld reality, the brain can be facilitated into a channel shift that will allow for short and long-term memories to be more easily accessed. this may be best facilitated by forgetting what has been learned in deference to that which is deeply known.
well, then, so we are dreaming?
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wolfiewolfie
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26544135 - 03/19/20 08:09 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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In an attempt to answer your questions as I understand them, without straying too far into personal opinion, I will be using the Cambridge English Dictionary definitions of 'reality' and 'dreaming' when using such terms:
Reality - "The state of things as they are, rather than as they are imagined to be."
Dreaming - "A series of events or images that happen in your mind when you are sleeping."
Quote:
thealienthatategod said: while experiencing a dream it may seem just as real as 'reality'
a dream can fell like an illusion, but so can reality
from a neurological perspective, the dream is processed in a way very similar to waking reality
Neurologically speaking, dreaming actually involves a reversed sequence of perceptual events. Instead of bottom-up it is top-down (higher levels activating lower levels instead lower to higher). Activation of the motivational mechanisms in the brain would normally be directed toward goal-oriented actions. However, during sleep access to the motor system is blocked (by inactivation of the dorsolateral frontal convexity). As a result, activation moves backwards toward the perceptual areas. This is why the dreamer doesn't engage in motivated behaviours but imagines them. Furthermore, there is inactivation of the reflective system in the limbic brain which leads the dreamer to mistake the dream for reality.
It is true that reality can sometimes feel like a 'dream', however, being able to reflect upon such a notion should be evidence enough that it is not so. It is this reflection that allows you to carry out a backwards consistency check as redgreenvines explained earlier. You will often find when dreaming, you are unable to recall the steps leading up to your current situation or 'how you got here'.
Quote:
thealienthatategod said: how is it that you can tell when you are awake and when you are asleep?
To put it simply, if you can question whether or not you are currently awake or asleep, chances are you are awake as the brain functions allowing you to do so would not be presently active if you were asleep.
Quote:
thealienthatategod said: if you are "awake" and recognize the fact that you are awake, how does this differ from being "asleep" and recognizing that you are sleeping?
is there any difference?
With the exception of lucid dreaming, it is often the case when one is asleep and recognises they are asleep, they almost immediately wake up. It could be that the realisation of being asleep occures somewhere in the moments after the waking up process has started, yet before all processes/functions are back online, however this is pure speculation on my behalf.
As to there being a difference between the two, you could think of it like this;
Being awake and realising you are awake is akin to sitting in a movie theatre watching a movie and realising you are sitting in a movie theatre watching a movie.
Being asleep and realising you are asleep is like when you are so engaged in the movie that nothing around you exists, the movie is all there is. Then you realise and almost immediately 'wake up' back into the movie theatre, just like waking up immediately after realising you are asleep.
I feel as though your questions would be better answered by Leonardo DiCaprio
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: wolfiewolfie] 1
#26544625 - 03/19/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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yay Leonardo!
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Yellow Pants


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26544937 - 03/19/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Yellow Pants said:
Quote:
thealienthatategod said: dreaming or perceiving of doing something is equivalent to actually doing it.
I’m just going to go ahead and catapult myself off this statement...
if something is dreamed, or remembered, or experienced, then the neurons that represent that thingness *all* fire simultaneously just the same as when they did or do while initially experiencing. this is a de facto fundamental principle for associative memory to exist and to function in a living brain.
As to whether they *all* fire or not, the clarity and intensity of memory recollection, or of perception being one thing or another is relative to how much of the same constellation of simultaneous nerve firing is going on. The more of the same set, the more of the same mental actuality emerges, and the less disputable the memory or perception is. How much similarity is required for some perception or even mistaken perception is a moot issue, and will depend on more complete and accurate high speed brain activity scans - right now the nmr type heat maps are relevant for slow transitions, much slower than 15 clear perceptions per second which is something we need to resolve this.
But there is a superposition state.
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wolfiewolfie
Just wingin' it.


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26544959 - 03/19/20 03:01 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: But there is a superposition state.
But there is also not a superposition state. Assuming a superposition can be in a superposition.
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The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all. My Drawings
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Yellow Pants


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: wolfiewolfie] 1
#26544984 - 03/19/20 03:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wolfiewolfie said:
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: But there is a superposition state.
But there is also not a superposition state. Assuming a superposition can be in a superposition.
Not a superposition state is a collapsed state. It comes from a superposition state whether we can measure it or not.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26545046 - 03/19/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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what is the duration and physical size measurement for superposition?
I thought it was all related to sub-atomic localities
does the math indicate that the size and duration are only subatomic or can the effect be coordinated into our more macro level of experiencing?
is it likely?
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Yellow Pants


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26545060 - 03/19/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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You’re definitely barking up the wrong tree in terms of technicality. Idk, I assume it’s certainly sub atomic with limited duration being part of the difficulty of bringing it into macro realm with computers and stuff. I think I read that they were in the process of doing testing on more macro levels.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26545080 - 03/19/20 04:06 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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i wonder if I still am in Dreamworld, even when i think i have taken my thoughts with me to consensus reality? does our presence in dreamworld persist even when we think we are elsewhere? are some portion of my thoughts rendering themselves into Dreamworld when i recall a dream i had last night? can the wake-conscious mind render thoughts into dreamworld reality from consensus reality? if i build a castle in the sky right now, will I find it in Dreamworld?
a single drop of water contains the potential for every pattern of snowflake. however, the dynamic information is only realized when the snowflake actually manifests, as the info from the molecular level of the drop flows into the crystalline form. simple complexity manifesting everything.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26545103 - 03/19/20 04:23 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what is the duration and physical size measurement for superposition?
I thought it was all related to sub-atomic localities
does the math indicate that the size and duration are only subatomic or can the effect be coordinated into our more macro level of experiencing?
is it likely?
Possibility of High Performance Quantum Computation by Using Evanescent Photons in Living Systems
Quote:
Conclusion: On the basis of the theorem that the evanescent photon is a superluminal particle, the possibility of high-performance computation in living systems has been studied. From the theoretical analysis, it is shown that the biological brain has the possibility to achieve large Quantum bits computation compared with the conventional processors. Thus it is considered that the human brain has the possibility to attain high efficient computation process compared with silicon processors.
well, anything is possible.
Alice would say the impossible is possible.
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wolfiewolfie
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26545578 - 03/19/20 09:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Its weird to think that in order for us to fall asleep, we first have to pretend we are sleeping.
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The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all. My Drawings
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: wolfiewolfie]
#26545848 - 03/20/20 03:48 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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if you have a dream, and you don't remember it, does the dream exist?
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26545902 - 03/20/20 05:56 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: You’re definitely barking up the wrong tree in terms of technicality. Idk, I assume it’s certainly sub atomic with limited duration being part of the difficulty of bringing it into macro realm with computers and stuff. I think I read that they were in the process of doing testing on more macro levels.
consider the poser consumption of modulating subatomic events at a macro level and then look at a sleeping child. who is barking up the tree?
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Yellow Pants


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26546557 - 03/20/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: You’re definitely barking up the wrong tree in terms of technicality. Idk, I assume it’s certainly sub atomic with limited duration being part of the difficulty of bringing it into macro realm with computers and stuff. I think I read that they were in the process of doing testing on more macro levels.
consider the poser consumption of modulating subatomic events at a macro level and then look at a sleeping child. who is barking up the tree?
“Poser consumption” I like that. But I’m not a real scientist man. Not beholden to some rigorous set of principles restricting me from saying anything intuitive but without hard data. The macro sleeping baby is made of micro sub atomic processes. It’s reality is configured of that. I don’t know much hardly anything of qm but a few good idiots guides to qm has told me this. If you have a grasp of the sub atomic level I’d love to here so then arm chair interpretations can be made.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26546749 - 03/20/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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i think it's a spelling mistake on my part and can't remember, but it has to do with the kind of energy required to modulate or detect quantum events, and that energy consumption is completely in a different universe than a the energy consumption in a sleeping child
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26548209 - 03/21/20 06:48 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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do you think consciousness has energy?
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26548271 - 03/21/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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it is structured energy in flux connected to body and dependent upon body. the structure and flow is such that it has no meaning without a body connection
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Forrester
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26548542 - 03/21/20 10:09 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Very interesting thread 
To throw in my opinion on the original topic, they are both illusions, one appearing to happen inside the other one, neither any more real than the other.
I don't believe there is any objective reality outside of our experience of it. Dreams just show us that the mind is awake and still creating while the body sleeps, as it does while the body is awake. When we awaken from this reality dream, we will see that it was in fact a dream as our newfound existence is less restricted (or "more real").
I don't know how we can claim to know that what we experience in our waking life is real, if we were stuck in the same dream for a seeming eternity, we would think it was the only reality until we woke. What's to say this isn't the case now, while we are still awake?
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Forrester] 1
#26549012 - 03/21/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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illusion is an interesting way to cast this, but what do you really mean by that? in buddhism the word is usually used to highlight the illusory self, and yes both waking life and dreams can both be troubled by the self being taken too seriously. did you mean that?
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26549037 - 03/21/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: it is structured energy in flux connected to body and dependent upon body. the structure and flow is such that it has no meaning without a body connection
that sounds like consciousness is a slave to the body.
just because the body appears to be bound to space-time information, the mind has to be as well?
the relationship does not have to be linear as we know that not every law has a linear relationship in potential differences.
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Forrester
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26549041 - 03/21/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: illusion is an interesting way to cast this, but what do you really mean by that? in buddhism the word is usually used to highlight the illusory self, and yes both waking life and dreams can both be troubled by the self being taken too seriously. did you mean that?
Hmmm... not exactly, I don't think. But maybe. I'm not familiar enough with the depths of buddhist teachings to make many comparisons though. I just mean if you believe there is life after this, in whatever different form you believe, from most accounts it is generally less restrictive than our experience in this life. For lack of a better word, MORE than this. Maybe there's 5 dimensions instead of our 3 (or 4 if you count time, whatever it's irrelevant). Either way, once you're THERE, your experience HERE seems so much less, like it was... well, a dream. You know?
Many these days are saying there's a good chance we live in a simulation of some sort, and what is a simulation, for the perciever, but a dream?
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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laughingdog
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Forrester] 1
#26550020 - 03/22/20 12:21 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Of course the question "which is more of an illusion? " implies both are illusory, which means any answer given will also be illusory ! ! !
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: laughingdog]
#26550178 - 03/22/20 04:36 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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time for a reality check.
it's all too easy to go about the mundane aspect of our lives and believe that all our senses can perceive is all there is. in the absence of the known there remains conjectures and assumptions.
how can something be known without direct experience?
what kind of experience is needed to shatter the illusions?
competent lucid dreams have reality checks to break the illusion of the dream, what kind of reality check would be needed to break the illusion of wake reality?
consciousness tries so hard to generate consistent datastream information. without the memory of an experience it might as well have not happened. what's a good reality check to see if you are experiencing an illusion in wake reality? how profound does the experience need to be? if a reality check is the hack to check for dream illusion consistency, what is the equivalent kind of hack in wake reality?
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26550511 - 03/22/20 09:12 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: it is structured energy in flux connected to body and dependent upon body. the structure and flow is such that it has no meaning without a body connection
that sounds like consciousness is a slave to the body.
not quite slave, but influenced, i.e. by nutrition, drugs, heat and cold etc.
Quote:
thealienthatategod said:just because the body appears to be bound to space-time information, the mind has to be as well?
the mind works by association, and each association is very fast, so the experience of being in moments separated by miles and days could be instantaneous.
Quote:
thealienthatategod said:the relationship does not have to be linear as we know that not every law has a linear relationship in potential differences.
this general idea does not compute really, the mind exists if the body is there to enable it to exist.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Forrester] 1
#26550520 - 03/22/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: illusion is an interesting way to cast this, but what do you really mean by that? in buddhism the word is usually used to highlight the illusory self, and yes both waking life and dreams can both be troubled by the self being taken too seriously. did you mean that?
Hmmm... not exactly, I don't think. But maybe. I'm not familiar enough with the depths of buddhist teachings to make many comparisons though. I just mean if you believe there is life after this, in whatever different form you believe, from most accounts it is generally less restrictive than our experience in this life. For lack of a better word, MORE than this. Maybe there's 5 dimensions instead of our 3 (or 4 if you count time, whatever it's irrelevant). Either way, once you're THERE, your experience HERE seems so much less, like it was... well, a dream. You know?
Many these days are saying there's a good chance we live in a simulation of some sort, and what is a simulation, for the perciever, but a dream?
that's because we are just discovering what is possible by simulation and some people are playing with the reasonableness of a proposition that perhaps we are in a simulation. The truth is that we are in our own simulation which is built in our minds to attempt to model the world but it is pretty fallible/human, however we are 99% sure that the univers inw hich we live and breathe is real.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26550524 - 03/22/20 09:19 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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there may be no simple litmus test to determine if what you experience or what you think is true.
but if you keep paying attention to what is changing, eg breath, posture, contact, sounds... then you have a good chance of being connected to the moment.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26550711 - 03/22/20 10:56 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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consciousness is influenced by the body, but is it not locked inside the world of perceptions that are limited by the body. free your mind, and your ass will follow, unless you are ass backward.
but how can one tell if their perceptions correspond with the external objects of perception? it seems perception always needs to be contrasted to reality, otherwise we wouldn't even know what a perception was.
i perceive my perceptions of what i am perceiving, but to go beyond my own perceptions and have access to the perceived thing itself - i would need to step outside my own perceptions and look back at my self in relation to the thing i am perceiving (reality check) - to see if my perceptions correspond with the thing being perceived. to accomplish this, the mind accesses a datastream of information that is usually barred from the perceiver as spacetime is not an appropriate reference frame for this utility.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26550719 - 03/22/20 11:00 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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One reason why consciousness cannot be a deterministic, Newtonian process.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26550803 - 03/22/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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what difference does it make to you if you are perceiving an object external or imagined. I am sure you will find your particular answers in your own particular life.
find what it means to you and you will know the difference.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26551011 - 03/22/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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if both external objects and imaginary things are illusions, then there is no difference - except for the delineations that the perceiver creates.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26551076 - 03/22/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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they are not illusions except to say that your perceptions of any of this are in your brain, i.e. copies of forms in the external world. you can track these forms you can touch these forms, they have consistency, extension etc.
all the features of which you have awareness are models you make reflexively in your mind. even the barest undecipherable sensation is in your mind as a copy of some physical event or thing.
That they are copies does not make them less honest unless you have a habit of distortion. illusion, well like I say, only if you take yourself too seriously.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26552465 - 03/23/20 06:59 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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how then would you explain something like a precognitive dream?
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26553151 - 03/23/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quantum mechanics there is a hyper dimensional void where form comes out of. Perhaps consciousness is similar, forms originate out of a void that transcends the forms manifesting where a higher order can sometimes help perform extraordinary feats.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26553170 - 03/23/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: how then would you explain something like a precognitive dream?
honest copy of images that seem correct, and happen to be true.
errors and guesses can be right. dreams can include correct imaginings. not good for betting, but check out remote viewing experiments by thee CIA and KGB.
I do not have an explanation for that other than good human guesses that have a fair chance to be right.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26554287 - 03/24/20 01:16 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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to reduce a precognitive dream to guesswork is equivalent to saying that all of Shakespeare's works were in fact written by monkeys striking random keys.
dream states offer a great potential, w/ all of their contents able to be changed by our will in reflective consciousness. cultures that value the experience of multiple realities do not accept the notion that sleep is a passive state, and the information obtained in these states is not disassociated from waking consciousness.
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kitten6
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26554428 - 03/24/20 05:09 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes you could say that we have a will that we can reflect on afterwards while dreaming. But this will is different from your normal will. It's the will of something that has been rid of physical and mental desires.
It is the will of our enlightened self, the closest that most people get to experiencing the will of the soul. And the will of the soul is the immortal will, the will that will never fade no matter how many times you die.
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Shr00mEater
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26554492 - 03/24/20 06:14 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I believe that evolutionary theory is essentially the idea that, it is, in fact, exactly a monkey banging on a typewriter, or quill and parchment, that produced Shakespeares works.
So.... why couldn’t a dream state be both extraordinarily complex, even predictive, and also simply random occurrence without a directed purpose. Don’t our minds seem very good at prediction while awake? Is there some reason you think the predictive way our minds work should not be active while asleep as well?
I’ve been following but not commenting, I am enjoying your theories, it’s given me quite a bit to look into already.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26554600 - 03/24/20 07:46 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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i believe, that within dreams there are certain level/places/locations/areas - that are each only accessed by certain states of consciousness. that is to say, different consciousness states lead to different kinds of dreams, AND the dream state is facilitated by our intentions. our individuals states will vary many times within a single night. that's why the quality/content of dreams can vary so widely. in some of these dream places the content is random, and to me the dream quality feels 'fake'.
in other dreamworld locations, where as 6 said, the will is accessing another state of consciousness, and you are in a different area of dreamworld location, thru your intentions, - there is a more directed purpose in the content and correlation to wake states of consciousness.
i also i don't see why all of the above couldn't be turned on it's head and reflected thru the looking glass, so that we could say the exact same thing about wake states of consciousness. especially including the italicized bit above.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26554722 - 03/24/20 08:50 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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it's not about monkeys though they also probably have predictive experiences based upon the equipment we share with them, and it is not just about dreams so much as it is about our innate ability to 'project our minds' or 'direct our thinking towards' some matter of interest that is not here and now, and not just you and me.
I used the term "guess" above with a great deal of respect for what goes into an intuitive process, as opposed to a flippant guess in party talk, or a mere bet against a horse race while jonesing for a win.
to guess intuitively we bring together as much as we can know about something and fish around in that cognitive milieu until something of interest emerges. Amazingly often this type of cognition ends up right on the money, fair bit of the time, but not always, and it works not by some wiring or radio or other cosmic linkage other than 'it feels right' when considered in an embrace of totality kind of way - aka intuition.
I see no reason to conclude that material external to the brain and body is required for any of that.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 2
#26554786 - 03/24/20 09:34 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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the non-material intuition, being an aspect of a non-local consciousness (outside timespace) cannot be fully explained by local consciousness states that access the local timespace datastream information.
consciousness of both local and non-local natures may be continuous, but to fully explain their continuity, aspects of a higher order are needed.
Quote:
If a man could pass through Paradise in a dream, and have a flower presented to him as a pledge that his soul had really been there, and if he found that flower in his hand when he awoke — Aye! and what then?
-- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Anima Poetae
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26554966 - 03/24/20 11:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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why do you think intuition is non-material?
intuition is just ideation that seems to have no single thread of "if this, then that" logical sequencing.
most of our thought is actually by intuitive linkage - it is basic and organic, and it is very much materially natural: usually more than a single candidate memory or 'insight' or perception is inspired by experiencing our world in any moment. The most suitably matched inspiration prevails, and that will be the insight, perception or other 'intuitive' response to the momentary condition, it joins the mix and the process continues day in day out: organic consciousness.
I am often amazed that people actually think this process is non-material, as if there were a contrivance that shunts ideas back and forth between organic bodies and discorporeal souls. (and how may I ask do those souls do their thinking, I mean really, at some point, some thing is doing the thinking, we do not need to push it into the ether just because it seems more complicated than digital computing. )
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26555266 - 03/24/20 02:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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i don't think that souls/spirits think in the way that our minds or bodies think. it does not relay and process information in 'thought' in the sense of adhering to the logic of Cartesian reality. it's knowing is instantaneous, and meanings are conveyed through a instantaneous feeling.
thinking is for the parts of us that are participating in local consciousness physical reality. non-thinking, or un-thought thinking is not a thought in the way that the mind or body has a physical reality thought. these un-thinking thoughts are for participating in non-local, non physical reality. thanks to the contrast between these two states, a place is created where perception can occur.
if you've ever been fully lucid in a dream, controlling your actions of your Dreamworld body, yet maintained full awareness of the sensation of your entire body in contact with your mattress, in this state of realization you see there is no subject (you) at the center. at this elevated level of central nervous system activation, the self-referent perspective vanishes.
now, from this higher informational order state, thought and un-thought are both the same thing. from the perspective of this order there is no division in the distinction between physical and non-physical.
you would hardly see the moon if it were not for the light of the sun.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26555371 - 03/24/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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alrighty then
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