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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Yellow Pants] 1
#26546749 - 03/20/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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i think it's a spelling mistake on my part and can't remember, but it has to do with the kind of energy required to modulate or detect quantum events, and that energy consumption is completely in a different universe than a the energy consumption in a sleeping child
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26548209 - 03/21/20 06:48 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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do you think consciousness has energy?
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26548271 - 03/21/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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it is structured energy in flux connected to body and dependent upon body. the structure and flow is such that it has no meaning without a body connection
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Forrester
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26548542 - 03/21/20 10:09 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Very interesting thread 
To throw in my opinion on the original topic, they are both illusions, one appearing to happen inside the other one, neither any more real than the other.
I don't believe there is any objective reality outside of our experience of it. Dreams just show us that the mind is awake and still creating while the body sleeps, as it does while the body is awake. When we awaken from this reality dream, we will see that it was in fact a dream as our newfound existence is less restricted (or "more real").
I don't know how we can claim to know that what we experience in our waking life is real, if we were stuck in the same dream for a seeming eternity, we would think it was the only reality until we woke. What's to say this isn't the case now, while we are still awake?
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Forrester] 1
#26549012 - 03/21/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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illusion is an interesting way to cast this, but what do you really mean by that? in buddhism the word is usually used to highlight the illusory self, and yes both waking life and dreams can both be troubled by the self being taken too seriously. did you mean that?
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26549037 - 03/21/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: it is structured energy in flux connected to body and dependent upon body. the structure and flow is such that it has no meaning without a body connection
that sounds like consciousness is a slave to the body.
just because the body appears to be bound to space-time information, the mind has to be as well?
the relationship does not have to be linear as we know that not every law has a linear relationship in potential differences.
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Forrester
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26549041 - 03/21/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: illusion is an interesting way to cast this, but what do you really mean by that? in buddhism the word is usually used to highlight the illusory self, and yes both waking life and dreams can both be troubled by the self being taken too seriously. did you mean that?
Hmmm... not exactly, I don't think. But maybe. I'm not familiar enough with the depths of buddhist teachings to make many comparisons though. I just mean if you believe there is life after this, in whatever different form you believe, from most accounts it is generally less restrictive than our experience in this life. For lack of a better word, MORE than this. Maybe there's 5 dimensions instead of our 3 (or 4 if you count time, whatever it's irrelevant). Either way, once you're THERE, your experience HERE seems so much less, like it was... well, a dream. You know?
Many these days are saying there's a good chance we live in a simulation of some sort, and what is a simulation, for the perciever, but a dream?
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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laughingdog
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Forrester] 1
#26550020 - 03/22/20 12:21 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Of course the question "which is more of an illusion? " implies both are illusory, which means any answer given will also be illusory ! ! !
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: laughingdog]
#26550178 - 03/22/20 04:36 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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time for a reality check.
it's all too easy to go about the mundane aspect of our lives and believe that all our senses can perceive is all there is. in the absence of the known there remains conjectures and assumptions.
how can something be known without direct experience?
what kind of experience is needed to shatter the illusions?
competent lucid dreams have reality checks to break the illusion of the dream, what kind of reality check would be needed to break the illusion of wake reality?
consciousness tries so hard to generate consistent datastream information. without the memory of an experience it might as well have not happened. what's a good reality check to see if you are experiencing an illusion in wake reality? how profound does the experience need to be? if a reality check is the hack to check for dream illusion consistency, what is the equivalent kind of hack in wake reality?
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26550511 - 03/22/20 09:12 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: it is structured energy in flux connected to body and dependent upon body. the structure and flow is such that it has no meaning without a body connection
that sounds like consciousness is a slave to the body.
not quite slave, but influenced, i.e. by nutrition, drugs, heat and cold etc.
Quote:
thealienthatategod said:just because the body appears to be bound to space-time information, the mind has to be as well?
the mind works by association, and each association is very fast, so the experience of being in moments separated by miles and days could be instantaneous.
Quote:
thealienthatategod said:the relationship does not have to be linear as we know that not every law has a linear relationship in potential differences.
this general idea does not compute really, the mind exists if the body is there to enable it to exist.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: Forrester] 1
#26550520 - 03/22/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: illusion is an interesting way to cast this, but what do you really mean by that? in buddhism the word is usually used to highlight the illusory self, and yes both waking life and dreams can both be troubled by the self being taken too seriously. did you mean that?
Hmmm... not exactly, I don't think. But maybe. I'm not familiar enough with the depths of buddhist teachings to make many comparisons though. I just mean if you believe there is life after this, in whatever different form you believe, from most accounts it is generally less restrictive than our experience in this life. For lack of a better word, MORE than this. Maybe there's 5 dimensions instead of our 3 (or 4 if you count time, whatever it's irrelevant). Either way, once you're THERE, your experience HERE seems so much less, like it was... well, a dream. You know?
Many these days are saying there's a good chance we live in a simulation of some sort, and what is a simulation, for the perciever, but a dream?
that's because we are just discovering what is possible by simulation and some people are playing with the reasonableness of a proposition that perhaps we are in a simulation. The truth is that we are in our own simulation which is built in our minds to attempt to model the world but it is pretty fallible/human, however we are 99% sure that the univers inw hich we live and breathe is real.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26550524 - 03/22/20 09:19 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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there may be no simple litmus test to determine if what you experience or what you think is true.
but if you keep paying attention to what is changing, eg breath, posture, contact, sounds... then you have a good chance of being connected to the moment.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26550711 - 03/22/20 10:56 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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consciousness is influenced by the body, but is it not locked inside the world of perceptions that are limited by the body. free your mind, and your ass will follow, unless you are ass backward.
but how can one tell if their perceptions correspond with the external objects of perception? it seems perception always needs to be contrasted to reality, otherwise we wouldn't even know what a perception was.
i perceive my perceptions of what i am perceiving, but to go beyond my own perceptions and have access to the perceived thing itself - i would need to step outside my own perceptions and look back at my self in relation to the thing i am perceiving (reality check) - to see if my perceptions correspond with the thing being perceived. to accomplish this, the mind accesses a datastream of information that is usually barred from the perceiver as spacetime is not an appropriate reference frame for this utility.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26550719 - 03/22/20 11:00 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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One reason why consciousness cannot be a deterministic, Newtonian process.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26550803 - 03/22/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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what difference does it make to you if you are perceiving an object external or imagined. I am sure you will find your particular answers in your own particular life.
find what it means to you and you will know the difference.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26551011 - 03/22/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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if both external objects and imaginary things are illusions, then there is no difference - except for the delineations that the perceiver creates.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26551076 - 03/22/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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they are not illusions except to say that your perceptions of any of this are in your brain, i.e. copies of forms in the external world. you can track these forms you can touch these forms, they have consistency, extension etc.
all the features of which you have awareness are models you make reflexively in your mind. even the barest undecipherable sensation is in your mind as a copy of some physical event or thing.
That they are copies does not make them less honest unless you have a habit of distortion. illusion, well like I say, only if you take yourself too seriously.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26552465 - 03/23/20 06:59 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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how then would you explain something like a precognitive dream?
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Yellow Pants


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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26553151 - 03/23/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quantum mechanics there is a hyper dimensional void where form comes out of. Perhaps consciousness is similar, forms originate out of a void that transcends the forms manifesting where a higher order can sometimes help perform extraordinary feats.
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redgreenvines
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Re: reality vs. dreaming - which is more of an illusion? [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#26553170 - 03/23/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: how then would you explain something like a precognitive dream?
honest copy of images that seem correct, and happen to be true.
errors and guesses can be right. dreams can include correct imaginings. not good for betting, but check out remote viewing experiments by thee CIA and KGB.
I do not have an explanation for that other than good human guesses that have a fair chance to be right.
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