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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
    #26529897 - 03/11/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Still waiting for the proof (haven’t seen any yet):popcorn:





I dunno. So far, he has done a fair job of showing that the gospel writers were more likely attempting to relate real life events, rather than fabricating a myth, or simply copying each other.

That’s at least some kind of evidence.

What would you consider a suitable proof for the claims he has made so far? Or, is there an alternate explanation for the circumstances mentioned? I don’t have much, except wanting to invoke bias, which I don’t really find problematic, until we get to the more extraordinary claims. Specifically, Jesus divinity and resurrection.

At that point, I see it similarly as I do reports of UFO, Ghosts, Bigfoot, flat earth, etc etc etc. I think the personal bias of the witness to these unusual events is going to seem much more problematic, than when we are simply talking about wether Jesus existed, or was in Jerusalem at all, or if Joseph was his father. In the same way I could accept that a person did see what they describe as bigfoot, but once they tell me this bigfoot was also and alien who rides a UFO around, I have to wonder how much their preconceived beliefs play a part in their testimonies.

The burden of proof must rise with the greater claims. The specific bias for a risen savior-god can’t be written off so easily once we get to the punchline. The authors did not write these books as witnesses for a police report, there is a clear agenda for detailing Jesus divinity.

Anyway, let’s not get stuck on that yet. I don’t suppose anyone has any fresh atheist counterpoints against the major premise that the authors were actual contemporary witnesses?


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26530334 - 03/12/20 06:14 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

More likely =\= proof

He hasn’t proved anything except the possibility that they weren’t lying. He hasn’t even addressed the fact that, if they lived when he claims, they obv knew each other so corroborated accounts don’t mean much.

The main issue isn’t with the writers though, obv. It’s not the part where Jesus tells people to leave a temple that sounds like a fairy tale. Eyewitness accounts from 5 minutes ago wouldn’t convince someone Jesus came back from the dead, much less ones from 2000 years ago.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
    #26530388 - 03/12/20 07:18 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

What does = proof tho? If every point brought to bear isn’t “proof” to you, what would be?

You might be raising the term to mean some kind of Ultimate Truth that would be incontestable by anyone. The problem is, everything is always contestable. As an example. Go ahead and convince me the earth is round instead of flat. You would be surprised by my ability to not recognize your proofs for a round earth. 😊

If he is saying something that isn’t following logical rules, or if he is making false claims. We should be able to illustrate it.

I do think he addressed collaboration. If they were collaborated, why wouldn’t they all say the same things? Or refer to each other’s books? Or what accounts for where the stories diverge?  etc etc,

No one has objected reasonably yet. :shrug:


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26530396 - 03/12/20 07:26 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You seem like a smart dude, but you just asked me to define proof for you. Sorry, but that’s what you did there.

proof
/pro͞of/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

Like I said, he only proved the POSSIBILITY of the writers being witnesses. There was 0 proof that the Bible story is true.
He said he can provide indisputable evidence. Why are you attacking people who want to hold him to that?


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
    #26530400 - 03/12/20 07:29 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

From the OP
Quote:

what if it could be demonstrated to you, beyond reasonable doubt, that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were the records of actual eyewitness accounts of Jesus?




Why does the subject matter change the definition of “beyond reasonable doubt”?


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26530406 - 03/12/20 07:33 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think a standard of “more reasonable” or “less reasonable” is as close as we can get in philosophy.

Even within scientific research, there are thousands of “unprovens”, probably multi thousands of questions left unanswered if we extend our demands of proof to “beyond all possible doubt”.

Unless someone comes along with a good challenge. I think he won this point.

It is safer to say that the gospel writers were contemporaries and wanted to relay those events accurately. Than it is to say, well, pretty much every early objection in this thread. I mean we started out with everyone assuming the Gospels were written well after the fact..... yet, no actual case has been made for that assumption. And, I am sure saved7 has more examples that exclude this line of thinking.

Don’t worry tho, so far, he hasn’t proven any mystical claims within the text. Only refuted the common objections. And, going by the original post, I’m not sure that is the intent.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26530407 - 03/12/20 07:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

“Helping to establish a fact”

Ok?

And not attacking. If you notice I keep pointing to the bias issue. I’ve cast doubt on several of his claims, and plan to even more once he goes beyond the common.

The reason I keep pushing back on you, or others is... well, no one is actually challenging his case.

And, he did say “beyond reasonable doubt”, not “every and all doubt”

I was hoping we had a solid atheist who knew the weaker points of these early points. But, I think his logical/reasoning problems will become more obvious once he extends these points to divine claims.




Edited by Shr00mEater (03/12/20 07:41 AM)


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26530477 - 03/12/20 08:26 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
I think a standard of “more reasonable” or “less reasonable” is as close as we can get in philosophy.

Even within scientific research, there are thousands of “unprovens”, probably multi thousands of questions left unanswered if we extend our demands of proof to “beyond all possible doubt”.

Unless someone comes along with a good challenge. I think he won this point.

It is safer to say that the gospel writers were contemporaries and wanted to relay those events accurately. Than it is to say, well, pretty much every early objection in this thread. I mean we started out with everyone assuming the Gospels were written well after the fact..... yet, no actual case has been made for that assumption. And, I am sure saved7 has more examples that exclude this line of thinking.

Don’t worry tho, so far, he hasn’t proven any mystical claims within the text. Only refuted the common objections. And, going by the original post, I’m not sure that is the intent.




No, not “all doubt”. Just beyond reasonable doubt, a term the OP used willingly.

If “more reasonable” is the best he can do, he’s simply mistaken about his initial assertion. And that’s ok, but it should be acknowledged. Otherwise, wtf are we even doing here?


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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 1
    #26530479 - 03/12/20 08:27 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think it might be helpful to use a mundane example of this kind of undesigned testimonial convergence... it's pretty crude example but hopefully makes the basic idea more understandable...

Suppose there are three people, Alex, Bill, and Chad that each recall their independent experiences inside X-Town on a certain night of the year.  Let's say Alex and Bill are strangers to X-Town, while Chad is a local resident.

------------------------------
Alex: I was staying in X-Town overnight for work, so I stopped at a restaurant to get something to eat but it was so crowded, and the waiting lines were so long, that I finally gave up and drove back to my hotel.

Bill: I was driving through X-Town late at night on my way home from visiting relatives and was upset when I had to stop behind a big line of cars at a police checkpoint.  The police said they were looking for drunk drivers.

Chad:  I stayed home all night because I read on social media that it was a big anniversary of the founding of X-Town, and I knew there would be tons of people out on the streets drinking and partying and I didn't want to deal with the huge crowds and loud noise.
-------------------------------

In each case, the 'eyewitnesses' of this particular time and place are providing independent accounts that confirm each other in only casual and unintentional ways.  Alex and Bill, being strangers, are totally unaware that the town they're passing through that particular night is holding a big 200th year celebration.  As far as Alex knows, the town just had a really active night-life...
and since Bill is just driving through to get somewhere else, he doesn't even see or mention the crowds downtown but he does get stopped at a DUI-checkpoint, though he doesn't know why.  This is a small detail that confirms he really was in that area, because those kinds of police checkpoints are unusual unless the town knows there's going to be lots of drunk people out on the streets that particular night.
and Chad of course, being the only local of the three witnesses, offers the explanation in his testimony, that the town is having a big anniversary party.

All three individuals end up confirming each others testimony in unintentional ways.  Again, it's a crude example that probably doesn't do justice to the complexities of events in the New Testament... but anyways...


So here is the next coincidence in the gospels, (trying to pick out the easiest ones to explain)

Herod and his servants:

----------------------------
At that time Herod the tetrarch heard about the fame of Jesus, and he said to his servants, "This is John the Baptist.  He has been raised from the dead;  that is why these miraculous powers are at work in him."
- Matthew 14:1-2
-----------------------------

Here the author of the Gospel of Matthew is mentioning a seemingly private conversation between the provincial ruler Herod and his servants, regarding Herod's discomfort surrounding the rise of Jesus' ministry. 
Next we turn to the Gospel of Luke:

--------------------------------------
Soon afterward he went on through the cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God.  And the twelve were with him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities:  Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.
- Luke 8:1-3
-------------------------------------------

Notice that the above passage in Luke is not even about Herod.  It's talking about completely different events in the timeline, and yet this casual bit of information confirms how the author of Matthew was able to have an account of Herod's private discussion with his servants... because one of Jesus' followers was the wife of one of Herod's servants... Now we can understand how the author of the Gospel of Matthew could have been privy to a private conversation of the ruler Herod.

Again, this is simply not the kind of pattern you find in embellished storytelling or mythmaking, yet it is exactly the type of pattern you find surrounding real events experienced by actual eyewitnesses.  One witness may uninentionally leave behind unanswered questions (details that aren't essential to the events they are recounting)... while another witness answers that question with a casual detail mentioned in a completely unrelated context.  This is a forensic signature usually only found when dealing with real witnesses to real events.

from p.88-89 from Lydia McGrew's "Hidden in Plain View"
...The indirectness of this coincidence is particularly lovely.  Only one part of the puzzle is found in each Gospel, and the connection cannot possibly be the result of design.  It is beyond belief that Luke would have inserted this casual reference to Chuza in a list unconnected in any other way with Herod or with the beheading of John, in order to provide a convenient explanation for the detail about Herod's servants mentioned only in Matthew.  This coincidence provides clear evidence of the independence of Matthew and Luke and confirms both.


I want to repeat that accepting this evidence does not mean automatically accepting the miracles and resurrection of Jesus.  But the evidence does show that the Gospels were written by actual independent eyewitnesses of Jesus during the time of his ministry who were recounting things truthfully to the best of their ability and recollection..  (again, signs of mythmaking or fraud-i.e. "getting their stories straight", would be obvious and contrary to the pattern of subtle and unintentional coincidences that we do find)

So the skeptic, upon accepting the evidence before him, is stuck with the challenge of offering an explanation other than the simplest one that the evidence points to...
(That the Gospels of Jesus Christ are true)


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
    #26530493 - 03/12/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The reason I asked what you consider proof, isn’t because I don’t know the definition.

It’s a mental test. If you are able to say “this isn’t proof” , then you should be able to tell us what -would- work for you as a proof.

Someone mentioned photographs not being available....... this would be a ridiculous ask for proof, considering the context. It indicates that this person may be unwilling to accept ANY evidence at all. That is not keeping with the attitude of a truth seeker. It does seem quite consistent with a desperate clinging to preconceived ideas, again, rather than honest inquiry into the validity of things.

Yes, many times, debate is futile. No one actually changes their minds much, but for the sake of the argument, and desire to know the truth of things,  it is beneficial for both sides to try an handle the claims fairly.

I’m not sure he can prove his whole case beyond a “reasonable doubt”, but I also don’t think anyone is laying out any real challenge to his premises or conclusions. Even my bias angle kinda sucks, and im not boned up on enough current arguments to want to raise a real challenge here.

I don’t want to read the Bible to try and make up some ground. And I don’t want to google search for rebuttals yet... I am still waiting for his argument to move from mundane to divine. :smile:


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 1
    #26530538 - 03/12/20 09:11 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Even within scientific research, there are thousands of “unprovens”, probably multi thousands of questions left unanswered if we extend our demands of proof to “beyond all possible doubt”.




Indeed, depending on how hyper-skeptical one chooses to be... technically you cannot "prove" that you aren't a brain in a vat somewhere experiencing the illusion of a physical body in a Matrix-like simulation.

If you want to doubt, no amount of proof will ever be enough.  Even the disciple Thomas, upon feeling the nailprints in the living resurrected Jesus' hands and spear-wound in his side, could have walked away doubting and reassuring himself it was all a crazy hallucination.  Instead he accepted the truth and bowed before his Lord and his God.

Even when Jesus was performing miracles in broad daylight, the scribes and Pharisees explained it away as "demonic" power, and not power from God.  We can easily see that no amount of supernatural miracles would have been enough "proof" for the Jews who didn't want Jesus to be the Messiah Christ.

I think this may be why Jesus was so mysterious about who he was.  He didn't march down the streets of Judea trumpeting that he was God in the flesh.  Instead he posed riddles and parables.  It was a way of casting off doubters, but those with "ears to hear" were invited into the mystery of his divinity. 

Instead of Jesus proclaiming to his disciples "I'm the Son of God, you better follow me!" ... instead he posed the question: "Who do you say that I am?"


Quote:

Shr00mEater said:It is safer to say that the gospel writers were contemporaries and wanted to relay those events accurately. Than it is to say, well, pretty much every early objection in this thread. I mean we started out with everyone assuming the Gospels were written well after the fact..... yet, no actual case has been made for that assumption.





Indeed there has been a desperate rush to portray the Gospels as anonymous mythologies written long after the contemporaries of Jesus. (built on weak, flimsy cases at best)
Just the idea that these were actual accounts of people following Jesus around Judea spooks the scholarly world because they know how difficult it is to explain away.  Jesus... a total enigma with no parallel in history.

We always just fall back on philosophical or ideological commitments to materialism (there's no evidence for supernatural miracles, so the gospels can't possibly be true!) ....  even though the textual evidence itself strongly points towards the Gospels being actual independent eyewitness testimonies...  the truth is right there inviting us in if we really want it, but at the same time it is so easy to deny if we'd rather cover our eyes and not see it.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: psi]
    #26530590 - 03/12/20 09:50 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
It would make zero difference to me. Even if it was 100% fiction (and I do think he was a real historical person), I think the character is still a good role model.

Assuming the stuff about eternal salvation and all that was true (which I strongly suspect it is not), I'm not sure trying to be a good person really "counts" in the same way if you're doing it out of self-interest. IMO you should try to be a decent person to others anyway, even if there is no bonus round after you die (which, again, I really doubt.)





OP, any thoughts on my answer to your "what if"? Apologies if you responded and I didn't see it.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: psi]
    #26530658 - 03/12/20 10:18 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Self interest isn’t a proper justification for behaving ethically?

Why not? Assuming a person is aware and able to choose between actions, Isn’t self interest at the root of most choices people make? Good, bad or indifferent?

If a house was on fire, and you saw an exit sign... would you avoid taking the exit, simply because it is in your self interest to escape the building? Or, if a friend asked for a favor, and you were aware that his request would work out to also benefit you along with him, would you avoid doing the favor because of the problem of self interest negating a positive action?

You also said you can accept that Jesus is a good role model, the problem with that is, he claimed to be more than just a good example for others. So, on at least a few of the gospel claims, it would seem that our good role model, or his biographers are delusional, lying or mistaken.

Not trying to be combative, please don’t take it this way. I am willing to be corrected, especially if I am not understanding the reason you think self interest matters here.

I won’t so easily let go of the concept of Jesus being a good role model, and a lying heretic at the same time. :cool:


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 2
    #26530673 - 03/12/20 10:26 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I'm reminded of this C.S. Lewis quote about Jesus....

Lunatic, Liar, or Lord:

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God."
That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.


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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26530959 - 03/12/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Self interest isn’t a proper justification for behaving ethically?

Why not? Assuming a person is aware and able to choose between actions, Isn’t self interest at the root of most choices people make? Good, bad or indifferent?

If a house was on fire, and you saw an exit sign... would you avoid taking the exit, simply because it is in your self interest to escape the building? Or, if a friend asked for a favor, and you were aware that his request would work out to also benefit you along with him, would you avoid doing the favor because of the problem of self interest negating a positive action?




In the context of doing things in order to go to heaven and not hell, yeah I tend to think your motivations would matter, assuming those places do exist. I feel like your burning house example goes beyond anything I was talking about and doesn't really apply. I never suggested that people should never do anything out of self interest. But if self interest is the deciding factor for a given person between doing good acts or bad ones, I'd say it's questionable whether they really did good in the purest sense, especially if some deity really is keeping count.

If someone's only reason for not stealing or killing was the law, and all of a sudden society collapsed and the law was no longer a concern, or circumstances arose in which they thought they could get away with those acts, does it really speak to their moral character that they didn't do them when they thought they would be punished?

Quote:

You also said you can accept that Jesus is a good role model, the problem with that is, he claimed to be more than just a good example for others. So, on at least a few of the gospel claims, it would seem that our good role model, or his biographers are delusional, lying or mistaken.

Not trying to be combative, please don’t take it this way. I am willing to be corrected, especially if I am not understanding the reason you think self interest matters here.

I won’t so easily let go of the concept of Jesus being a good role model, and a lying heretic at the same time. :cool:



I have no problem picking and choosing the aspects that I believe ring true for me and the ones that don't. Jesus in particular is a figure I can relate to for cultural reasons. Could just as easily have been someone else in that role if I grew up somewhere else. If some of his advice was good and some bad, the bad really has no bearing on whether or not the good advice is good on its own. I don't believe the "good" stuff (to me) is good based on confidence in his authority.

Additionally, I feel like the heaven and hell stuff may be good motivation for some people even if it's not true. Just as it's good that we have laws to keep people in check who would otherwise be doing a lot more evil (though the untruth part of the analogy doesn't carry over there).

In the case that no deity is real, it's probably preferable that some people who would otherwise do evil do good believing a lie, even just for everyone else's safety. And in that situation I don't think the heresy criticism really applies.

In the case that some other deity is real, Jesus's comments on the supernatural were heretical, and we will be punished for not guessing the correct religion, I feel like that deity is evil and we had little chance of pleasing them to begin with. So I default to trying to do what I think is good. On the off chance that some deity is real and there will be some accounting session after I die, I hopefully will have done my best to be a good person, and hopefully that will be good enough.


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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: psi] * 1
    #26531031 - 03/12/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

There’s a lot there. I had some stuff written, I deleted it, it was mostly agreeing with your view on accepting some of what Jesus said and rejecting others. I think that is sensible for evaluating any claims. Even Trump does or says good things now and again. but, if we assume everything he says/does is good based on a few examples..... we will be wearing MAGA hats soon enough.

The rest was minutia and hair splitting over “pure intent”.

I am curious how saved7 responds, you are bringing up “being good to get into heaven”, I think that’s a misunderstanding of the generally held Christian view of salvation.  Not by works, but by faith, etc etc etc. Meaning, I think we might be about to get an actual sermon. Lol


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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: psi] * 2
    #26531074 - 03/12/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

psi said:
It would make zero difference to me. Even if it was 100% fiction (and I do think he was a real historical person), I think the character is still a good role model.

Assuming the stuff about eternal salvation and all that was true (which I strongly suspect it is not), I'm not sure trying to be a good person really "counts" in the same way if you're doing it out of self-interest. IMO you should try to be a decent person to others anyway, even if there is no bonus round after you die (which, again, I really doubt.)





OP, any thoughts on my answer to your "what if"? Apologies if you responded and I didn't see it.




I am hesitant to get into a theological debate here as it's off-topic, but since you asked...

What exactly is this mysterious quality of "goodness" ?

It makes me think of these words from Jesus:

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

- Mark 10:17-18

Some people claim the above verse as evidence against Jesus' divinity, and it appears that way at first glance, until you realize there is no actual denial in his response.  Jesus is challenging the questioner, almost 'trolling' him in a sense, daring him to make the logical connection. (see Mark 10:21)

But anyways to your point... Sort of reframing the premise of your question... I don't believe there is any real distinction between 'Goodness' and God Himself.  The very act of wanting to do good things originates from our loving Creator.  Goodness is of God.  It is not any kind of separate human quality or attribute that can be located as a purely human act or expression.

A person who really loves God, wants to do good to others.  That is the great commandment from Jesus... Love God and each other, to be servants for each other, just as the Creator of the universe became a suffering servant for us.

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

- 1 John 4:7-11


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26531123 - 03/12/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah if there is anything I have faith in it's a sense of "goodness" like you describe. So to the degree that the gospels line up with my sense of that, they ring true for me. The heaven and hell stuff and the question of Jesus' divinity (or that of any other purported deity) don't resonate with me as important considerations.


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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26531173 - 03/12/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Here is an example of an undesigned coincidence dealing with a miracle.  Again the same signature of truthful eyewitness testimony holds whether or not the events are miraculous or non-miraculous.


What happened to Malchus's ear?

In the Gospel of John chapter 18, we're given an account of the servants of the Jewish high priests coming to arrest Jesus in the garden, whereby his disciple Peter pulls out a sword and cuts off one of the servant's ears. (The Gospel of John alone gives the name of the servant: Malchus)

----------------------------
Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”
- John 18:10-11
--------------------------

After Jesus is arrested, he is taken by the Jews to be judged by the Roman governor Pontius Pilate. At this time, only the Roman empire had the authority to execute people, and the Jews were demanding that Jesus be found guilty.

In a brief exchange, Jesus says this to Pilate:
-------------------------
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
- John 18:36
--------------------------

But think about this.  Just recently, one of Jesus' closest disciples slashed someone in the head with a sword with Jesus standing by.... yet now Jesus is claiming that his servants do not fight?

The Jews could simply have produced Malchus and the bloody stump where his ear was sliced off by Peter.  Yet the Jews don't offer Malchus as any kind of evidence of violence in Jesus' movement.  This seems to be a glaring 'plot-hole' in the Gospel of John.

It is only in the Gospel of Luke that we find the answer to this problem:

------------------------
And when those who were around him saw what would follow, they said, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”  And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus said, “No more of this!” And he touched his ear and healed him.
- Luke 22:49-51
-------------------------

Again, with these patterns of unintentional confirmations between different gospels, they defy claims of being embellished myths or frauds.  The author of the Gospel of John (probably John himself), while recounting the violent attack on Malchus, does not mention Jesus' miraculous healing of Malchus' ear because John may simply not have directly witnessed it in all the chaos and confusion.... yet the same author's account of Jesus' trial presents a situation where Malchus should have been produced as evidence that Jesus was leading a violent movement.

Again, one witness is unintentionally resolving the puzzle pieces left open by another witness, the pattern we expect to find with real witnesses to real events, and opposite the pattern we expect from a fabricated story or embellished myth.

from p.56-57 of Lydia McGrew's "Hidden in Plain View"

Only Luke says that Jesus healed the servant's ear, though the Gospels of Matthew and Mark also recount that the ear was cut off.  Here again, the Gospel of Luke supplies a unique detail within a passage that is in some respects similar to the other Synoptic Gospels.  And here, too, this detail is confirmed by an undesigned coincidence.  If it is true that Jesus healed the servant's ear, it explains Jesus' words to Pilate, though those words are given only in the Gospel of John.  Jesus could confidently declare that his kingdom is not of this world and even say that his servants would be fighting if his kingdom were not peaceful.  If anyone tried to say that Peter cut off a servan't ear, the wounded servant himself could not be produced to show this, and an admission that Jesus healed the ear would be further evidence of Jesus' non-violent intentions, not to mention evidence of his miraculous abilities.  This undesigned coincidence thus confirms John's and Luke's separate accounts of the events of Jesus' passion and trial.
I note here that the way in which Luke explains John involves a miracle... The Gospels tell of miracles in the same way in which they tell of other events.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


Edited by saved7 (03/12/20 04:22 PM)


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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26531498 - 03/12/20 06:23 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

So your just going to quote scripture and fill in the blanks as to why you think there are discrepancies?

Remember your preaching to those that do not believe the scriptures are factual. I understand your trying to use them to convince someone (possibly yourself) that they are true; but mind you there are some hardcore skeptics out here.

I have to ask why is the torah included in the bible if the gospels are against what god originally told his people? For example and eye for an eye? Jesus says to turn the other cheek. Did the almighty change his mind?


Edited by The Influence (03/13/20 06:22 AM)


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