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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529233 - 03/11/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Like I said...twice...don’t listen to the “anarchists”. Listen to Russia’s own human rights groups and the Russian physicians who concluded that the kids had wounds consistent with electrocution.
But ask your buddies too. This is one topic that most Putin-leaning Russians can’t justify either. These laws, the restriction of free speech, punishment of young kids, false imprisonments...it’s all very familiar to the Russian people.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26529236 - 03/11/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Dude, it’s not “asking” if it’s good enough. It’s asking if it’s real and saying the best case scenario is a “light” 15-day sentence...for likes and memes. Here’s the actual tag line of the MOSCOW TIMES article
Quote:
After Putin proposes softening an extremism law, skeptics say the liberalization is a facade.
Right. And you're a skeptic.
Quote:
feldman114 said: Here’s another MOSCOW TIMES article detailing the jailing AND imprisonment of an 18-year-old girl , among 5 other young Russians for posting to a chat room. (she’s on house arrest now, but before the media attention she did spend time in prison). https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/08/15/a-russian-teenagers-chat-group-became-fsb-snare-a62529
I can literally do this all day, that’s how many times this happened
Another case of people being arrested for plotting terrorist acts, not for chatting in a chat room. Again, you should at least be honest about what the arrest was for.
Should the Government wait until after a crime before stepping in? That's a question that varies by country.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529244 - 03/11/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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By the way, we arrest suspected terrorists as well.
Women In NYC Arrested As Part Of Alleged Terror Plot
And did you hear about how we treated Maria Butina to get a confession?
Now it's time for Enlil to come in and say who cares what happens in the US, this is about Russia bashing!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26529251 - 03/11/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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It has absolutely zero bearing on the discussion. If you want to discuss protection of speech in the U.S., I'll be glad to engage in that discussion. That isn't this discussion, however.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil]
#26529263 - 03/11/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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That woman was contacted by undercover agents before the bust, no? She wasn’t picked up based on a meme or a like, right? Sorry, can’t watch videos RN. Work
And Butina was tortured? Ha! Cause tight handcuffs are the equivalent of electroshocking? You gotta be kidding me....
Quote:
Russia’s U.S. embassy said in a statement on Sunday that Butina had been transferred from a prison in Washington to one in Virginia on Friday without notice or explanation and that her personal belongings had also been confiscated.
She had been subjected to a strip search and shackled during the transfer, it alleged, before being held in a cell for 12 hours without food and with the lights on. She now faced a solitary confinement regime, it said.
“Her situation is getting worse. It’s obvious that attempts are being made to ‘break’ Maria using additional humiliation and psychological pressure,” the embassy said.
From your article. Oh no, she was moved from one prison to another.  Lights on for 12 hours - oh the humanity.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26529415 - 03/11/20 04:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: The entire case is based on confessions the defendants were forced to agree to via intense torture as well as weapons planted by police and an extremely tenuous accusation that they were “planning to plan terrorist actions to overthrow the government of Russia.”
...according to the convicted themselves.
I'll see if I can get a Russian friend of mine to find something in Russian on this. I'm fairly certain there's more than what the anarchists claim.
The claim is they are fraudulently convicted political prisoners. Using the conviction to discount this is circular reasoning - why don't you engage with the actual evidence?
There's hard evidence of torture that was documented by civil rights groups. The Public Monitoring Commission in St. Petersburg visited them while still in prison and confirmed that they had marks from several kinds of torture. Human Rights organizations like Memorial and Amnesty International are speaking out.
 Wounds inflicted on Ilya Kapustin by torture with electrical shock.
 Visual survey report on the torture that the FSB inflicted on arrestee Igor Shishkin, from the Public Monitoring Commission findings.
What evidence did the FSB present to implicate these people as terrorists?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26529580 - 03/11/20 06:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think we need to step back and rehash what each of us is arguing, because I don't think we're being very clear.
- I'm arguing that people in Russia don't get jail time just for liking something on Facebook - I'm arguing that people in Russia don't get jail time for social media posts unless they intentionally incite hatred or terrorism - I'm arguing that it is very uncommon for Russian police to use torture or to falsify evidence (and if they do it's against Russian law) - I'm arguing that Putin's involvement in these cases was little more than to soften existing laws
- I'm NOT arguing that no one was ever detained for liking something on Facebook - I'm NOT arguing that no one was ever jailed for inciting hatred or extremist activity - I'm NOT arguing that torture has never been used and evidence has never been falsified
To answer your question about evidence, the prosection had two documents outlining the Network’s goals and org structure, and the minutes of an interregional meeting.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26529836 - 03/11/20 08:12 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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The issue is very clear: when it comes to any criticism of the Russian State, you are there to misdirect, deny, and obscure. Right now you're being hit from all angles by people tired of this. Probably initially spurred on by your refusal to acknowledge Putins refusal to relinquish power.
I picked up on the anarchist political prisoners example when I saw you denounce them as terrorists - uncritically taking the State line - because we've discussed this issue and it's one that I take a personal interest in, since it's political repression of an ideology I openly hold.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: To answer your question about evidence, the prosection had two documents outlining the Network’s goals and org structure, and the minutes of an interregional meeting.
Don't forget that the FSB is the successor of the KGB - an organization not above torture, false confessions, fabricated trials - and definitely not one who's claims we should accept at face value. Here, let's take a more in-depth look at the State evidence:
Quote:
‘Participants’ in this organisation were not charged with the commission of any actions, nor with having developed specific plans, but only with indefinite intentions, with having ‘planned’ something criminal ‘in a place and at a time that have not been established, in circumstances that have not been established by the investigation, jointly with persons who have not been identified, guided by the ideology of anarchism,’
It is claimed that Network had a charter and held congresses. The investigators gave the title ‘congresses’ to various open meetings, including ordinary social gatherings at which one or other of those convicted was present or accidentally met with another (after all, most of the members of Network did not even know each other). As experts have shown, the ‘charter’ of the group of anarchists (a thing which would in itself be amusing!) appeared on a computer after it had been seized, when the owner was already held on remand, and was then edited by unidentified persons.
No fingerprints or other biological samples of the defendants were found anywhere on a meagre store of arms, including on the weapons and ammunition, that allegedly were discovered. Investigators, for their part, did not even try to establish the circumstances in which the weapons had been acquired. Pressure was applied not only to the defendants, but also to witnesses, many of whom complained about this and rejected testimony they had at first given. This weak ‘evidential base’ was strengthened by the testimony of ‘secret witnesses.’
Source
Why we believe the charges related to the banned Network organisation to be fabricated and politically motivated
- There is much testimony that all the defendants and at least four witnesses in the Penza case were subjected to torture. The use of torture in the work of the investigators was a general rule and one of the main instruments used during the investigation in the criminal case. The torture of the St. Petersburg defendants Viktor Filinkov, Yuly Boyarshinov, and Igor Shishkin has also been documented by the Public Oversight Commission. The Network case, both in Penza and St. Petersburg, has been wholly built on the testimony obtained under torture. All the ‘self-incriminatory statements’ obtained by this means are inadmissible in court and cannot be used as evidence.
- This case is an example of reality being fitted to the conspiracy theories of operational and investigative officers from the Penza FSB. The description of training, division of responsibilities and the structure of Network, set out at the trials in Penza and St. Petersburg, was much more like information about a group of strike ball players. The version according to which a small group of young people with left-wing views, living in Penza, seriously decided to violently overthrow the current political regime in Russia is extremely unrealistic.
- Evidence gathered by the investigation, presented at the trial that began on 14 May 2019 in the Volga District Military Court, is extremely unconvincing and consists of classified testimonies of witnesses who are either hostile to the defendants or who wish to avoid prison, two planted pistols, one improvised explosive device, doctored recordings of telephone conversations and documents of the ‘terrorist group,’ very crudely fabricated from the correspondence of young women of anarchist persuasion.
- The defendants are in fact not accused of having committed any real actions or attempts to commit such actions. All the offences they allegedly were going to commit, even according to the investigators, are concerned with an indeterminate, distant future. Moreover, initially the FSB asserted that the participants in Network had prepared to carry out acts of terrorism during the FIFA World Cup in the summer of 2018. However, the final charges contained no mention of this. Even those defendants who pleaded guilty stated that the purpose of the training and joint activities in Network was nothing other than self-defence in case of attack by radical nationalists during possible disturbances, and not preparation to seize some buildings or other, or the commission of terrorist acts.
- Maksim Ivankin and Mikhail Kulkov have also been charged with drug trafficking. They pleaded guilty to these crimes in court. Yet, this cannot prevent them being recognised as political prisoners on groundless charges of terrorism. At the same time, we believe that these episodes must also be objectively investigated because of the violation of Ivankin’s and Kulkov’s rights during the preliminary investigation. There is a strong likelihood that the charges against Chernov under Article 228.1 of the Russian Criminal Code were fabricated given that he was charged almost a year after his detention and the investigatory authorities gained access to the smart phone found on him at the time of arrest. Neither his fingerprints nor other biological traces were found on the packets containing drugs.
- It is obvious that the prosecution of the antifascist activists in Penza, part of on-going repressive measures against anarchists and anti-fascists that sharply increased in 2017–2018, is politically motivated. The authorities cultivate the image of anarchists as people who are related to terrorism and seek to destabilise society and the political system. Detained anarchists are, moreover, routinely and blatantly tortured. At the same time, all extra-systemic, informal self-organisation in society, especially of young people, is closed down.
So are you still convinced that these people are terrorists?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26529886 - 03/11/20 08:44 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: The issue is very clear: when it comes to any criticism of the Russian State, you are there to misdirect, deny, and obscure.
No, I'm trying to prevent others from doing so. I just clarified my position because other are trying to misrepresent it.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Right now you're being hit from all angles by people tired of this. Probably initially spurred on by your refusal to acknowledge Putins refusal to relinquish power.
Putin doesn't have a choice but to relinquish power if he is voted out. Is it your belief that a majority of Russians don't like him? Because if so, I can point you to many public opinion polls showing you're very wrong. Can you point to any showing Putin is not popular among the general population?
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: we've discussed this issue and it's one that I take a personal interest in, since it's political repression of an ideology I openly hold.
(body deleted for brevity)
So are you still convinced that these people are terrorists?
I have no idea if they are terrorists, and I never said they were. What I said was a "judge found the men guilty of planning terrorist attacks to destabilize the country during the 2018 presidential election and the soccer World Cup" and that they were "convicted terrorists". I also said "I'm NOT arguing that torture has never been used and evidence has never been falsified".
My point wasn't to say if they are innocent or guilty (I don't know), my point was to say they weren't put in jail just for posting to social media, they were put in jail because they were found guilty of planning terrorist attacks (whether justified or not).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seriously_trippin
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26530140 - 03/12/20 12:31 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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How can the Russian people be so egotistical to vote for all the eligible voters from now until 2036? Or is it that Putin's a tyrant much like Castro?
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Seriously_trippin]
#26530337 - 03/12/20 06:17 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Name 1 dictator who wasn’t “popular with the general population”.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Seriously_trippin] 1
#26530558 - 03/12/20 09:36 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: How can the Russian people be so egotistical to vote for all the eligible voters from now until 2036? Or is it that Putin's a tyrant much like Castro?
You throw any legit competition in jail on trumped up charges
--------------------
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26530923 - 03/12/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: No, I'm trying to prevent others from doing so. I just clarified my position because other are trying to misrepresent it.
I have no idea if they are terrorists, and I never said they were. What I said was a "judge found the men guilty of planning terrorist attacks to destabilize the country during the 2018 presidential election and the soccer World Cup" and that they were "convicted terrorists". I also said "I'm NOT arguing that torture has never been used and evidence has never been falsified".
My point wasn't to say if they are innocent or guilty (I don't know), my point was to say they weren't put in jail just for posting to social media, they were put in jail because they were found guilty of planning terrorist attacks (whether justified or not).
See now this is an example of misdirection, denial, and obscuring.
Your argument here appears to be that since these people weren't specifically put in jail just for posting on social media in this case it's a big... nothing burger.
Except tracing back the thread of discussion, we went from 'Russian law once again being changed to allow Putin to stay in power' to a discussion on 'political repression in Russia', which finally arrived at the specific question 'if anyone was put in jail just for posting to social media'.
I don't know if feldman114 just framed the argument badly or if you directed the discussion there, but to latch onto that single point as if proving the specific claim wrong has any bearing on the general discussion is intellectually dishonest. By all means, correct the mistake - but that doesn't give you license to ignore the greater argument.
In the case of the anarchist political prisoners, it doesn't matter that posting on social media wasn't the sole justification for the case - the torture, false evidence, vague charges, political targeting, and draconian sentences spell out a strong argument for political repression in Russia. You don't get to shrug all of that off on some technicality.
The Network terrorism case is an excellent example of political repression in Russia. Anarchists, due to the very nature of the ideology, experience some levels of repression everywhere - Russian police aren't the only ones to torture arrested people, and the Russian State isn't the only one to fabricate a terrorism case - but Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression.
Can you acknowledge this?
For more background on repression throughout Europe during this period, read (pdf link) “On Repression Patterns in Europe,” which offers a critical overview of repression and solidarity in six countries.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26531147 - 03/12/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: No, I'm trying to prevent others from doing so. I just clarified my position because other are trying to misrepresent it.
I have no idea if they are terrorists, and I never said they were. What I said was a "judge found the men guilty of planning terrorist attacks to destabilize the country during the 2018 presidential election and the soccer World Cup" and that they were "convicted terrorists". I also said "I'm NOT arguing that torture has never been used and evidence has never been falsified".
My point wasn't to say if they are innocent or guilty (I don't know), my point was to say they weren't put in jail just for posting to social media, they were put in jail because they were found guilty of planning terrorist attacks (whether justified or not).
See now this is an example of misdirection, denial, and obscuring.
Your argument here appears to be that since these people weren't specifically put in jail just for posting on social media in this case it's a big... nothing burger.
No, that's not my argument. My argument is exactly what I said it was - people aren't being put in jail just for posting to social media.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Except tracing back the thread of discussion, we went from 'Russian law once again being changed to allow Putin to stay in power' to a discussion on 'political repression in Russia', which finally arrived at the specific question 'if anyone was put in jail just for posting to social media'.
I don't know if feldman114 just framed the argument badly or if you directed the discussion there, but to latch onto that single point as if proving the specific claim wrong has any bearing on the general discussion is intellectually dishonest.
Feldman said "Apparently people received jail time for 'Likes' as well". That was FACTUALLY dishonest. So I corrected him. If you think correcting factual mistakes is intellectual dishonesty, we'll have to disagree.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: By all means, correct the mistake - but that doesn't give you license to ignore the greater argument.
In the case of the anarchist political prisoners, it doesn't matter that posting on social media wasn't the sole justification for the case - the torture, false evidence, vague charges, political targeting, and draconian sentences spell out a strong argument for political repression in Russia. You don't get to shrug all of that off on some technicality.
The Network terrorism case is an excellent example of political repression in Russia. Anarchists, due to the very nature of the ideology, experience some levels of repression everywhere - Russian police aren't the only ones to torture arrested people
You're exactly right - you can find plenty of examples of torture by police in other countries such as the United States.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: ...and the Russian State isn't the only one to fabricate a terrorism case
You're exactly right - you can find plenty of examples of fabricating terrorism in other countries such as the United States.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: ...but Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression.
Can you acknowledge this?
I've already acknowledged that it happens everywhere, but torture and fabrication of evidence are illegal in Russia, just as they are here in the US and many other countries that use them anyway. Every country has a few bad actors.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: For more background on repression throughout Europe during this period, read (pdf link) “On Repression Patterns in Europe,” which offers a critical overview of repression and solidarity in six countries.
I won't disagree with you at all about this.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26531314 - 03/12/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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The American cops who torture people get caught. The Russian cops are doing their job, which is why they’re never held accountable.
@shiva I see what you mean, but you should also understand that this back-and-forth about Russia is an ongoing thing. If I had any hope left that logic or facts can change what Fal thinks (ON THIS TOPIC) I’d keep the original discussion going. Instead, I just pick the biggest fallacy in each of his responses and point it out, as succinctly as possible...See, I have this theory that Fal’s love for Russia is actually his hate for the U.S. in disguise. And I figure enough landed jabs can bring the mental wall down faster than an all-out combo assault. Fuck I’m high. Hope that made sense. Sorry.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26531368 - 03/12/20 04:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: The American cops who torture people get caught. The Russian cops are doing their job, which is why they’re never held accountable.
That's not true.
Russian Cops Jailed for Torturing Suspects "A court in St. Petersburg has sentenced two police officers to four years behind bars for torturing suspects"
Quote:
feldman114 said: @shiva I see what you mean, but you should also understand that this back-and-forth about Russia is an ongoing thing. If I had any hope left that logic or facts can change what Fal thinks (ON THIS TOPIC) I’d keep the original discussion going.
See above.
Quote:
feldman114 said: I have this theory that Fal’s love for Russia is actually his hate for the U.S. in disguise.
I have no love of Russia. I have a strong hate of make believe.
If you like, I'll play make believe with you in the Kindeegarten Forum. Political Discussion isn't the right place.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26531378 - 03/12/20 04:39 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Every country has a few bad actors.
Quote:
A shocking video of the torture of a prisoner forced the government to acknowledge the use of torture in Russian prisons.
Torture and Cruel and Degrading Treatment
In July, Novaya Gazeta published a leaked video of penitentiary staff in Yaroslavl viciously beating a prisoner. Responding to public indignation, Russia’s criminal investigation agency arrested 15 suspects by November. One suspect testified that staff recorded the video to demonstrate that they had carried out an order by senior officials to punish the prisoner.
The swift, effective investigation was unprecedented in Russia, where authorities typically dismiss prisoners’ complaints of ill-treatment.
In August, Meduza, an independent online media outlet, published data on more than 50 other publicly reported torture cases in 2018. The alleged perpetrators included police, investigators, security agents, and penitentiary officials. Authorities opened only a few criminal investigations into the allegations, and only one case advanced to trial.
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/russia
Some countries more have than a few .
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2] 1
#26531382 - 03/12/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Some countries more have than a few .
That's for sure:
Torture in US Prisons
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26531623 - 03/12/20 07:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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They don’t limit their torture to prisoners . I should be outraged by the fact that they torture Jehovas Witnesses , rather than slightly amused . I’m a terrible person .
Quote:
Russian law enforcement has been rocked by several torture scandals in recent years, with reported victims including LGBT people in Chechnya, Jehovah's Witnesses and prisoners. Recent polling has said that one in 10 Russians have been subjected to what they perceived to be torture by law enforcement officials.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/10/russias-torture-complaints-doubled-since-2018-rights-official-says-a66353
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2]
#26531907 - 03/12/20 11:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said: They don’t limit their torture to prisoners .
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/10/russias-torture-complaints-doubled-since-2018-rights-official-says-a66353
Your article starts out saying "Complaints of torture in Russia’s penal system have doubled over the past year, the country’s top human rights official has said."
Anyway, it's still not allowed. Chechnya has always been a problem area for Putin if you follow recent Russian history.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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