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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
    #26529010 - 03/11/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

"Received jail time" and getting detained are not the same thing.

I don't think I'm being a stickler here, I think you got duped.  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26529020 - 03/11/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Both have a chilling effect on speech, though.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26529027 - 03/11/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

But one of them isn't happening.  :cookiemonster:


--------------------
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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26529039 - 03/11/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So being arrested and held in jail for a FB poast is a-ok in your book?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
    #26529041 - 03/11/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No, but were the detained people put in jail?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26529058 - 03/11/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Does it matter?  If they were detained in the basement of a burger joint, is that any better?


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26529060 - 03/11/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, even after Putin reverses his own draconian law.

Prison is horrible. Jail sucks too though.

https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-signs-law-softening-punishment-for-memes/29681058.html
Quote:

Under the legislation, first-time offenders will face administrative instead of criminal prosecution, meaning they would be fined, do community service, or be jailed for up to 15 days.




And you just said you don’t agree with people being arrested for SM poasts. Why do you keep defending the govt that does it?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil]
    #26529076 - 03/11/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Does it matter?  If they were detained in the basement of a burger joint, is that any better?



Does honesty matter?  It does in my opinion.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26529079 - 03/11/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So I did that on purpose? Lol cmon now...I said “received jail time” instead of “were arrested and taken to jail”.
Most readers won’t even notice the difference if I go back and edit it.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
    #26529080 - 03/11/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Yes, even after Putin reverses his own draconian law.

Prison is horrible. Jail sucks too though.

https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-signs-law-softening-punishment-for-memes/29681058.html
Quote:

Under the legislation, first-time offenders will face administrative instead of criminal prosecution, meaning they would be fined, do community service, or be jailed for up to 15 days.




And you just said you don’t agree with people being arrested for SM poasts. Why do you keep defending the govt that does it?



Now you point me to a known US Governmet propaganda site for news?

You keep reading your propaganda sites for news, I'll keep talking to my Russian acquaintances.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26529091 - 03/11/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Does it matter?  If they were detained in the basement of a burger joint, is that any better?



Does honesty matter?  It does in my opinion.



Then try it.  Russia has a terrible record of speech suppression. Your semantics do nothing to change that.


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26529093 - 03/11/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I don’t read that site. I googled the story and it was the first link.

What a weak excuse man, I expected better.

Here’s the second link from the search results, and another one your sig says is from a non-establishment source :tongue:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-11/putin-rethinks-russian-crackdown-on-social-media-memes
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/world/europe/russia-domestic-violence.html

Edit: whooops, the nyt one is unrelated. Google needs work.

Here’s a replacement. It’s from TheMoscowTimes FFS
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/10/04/will-russia-stop-arresting-citizens-for-memes-a63090


Edited by feldman114 (03/11/20 12:38 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26529115 - 03/11/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Does honesty matter?  It does in my opinion.



Then try it.  Russia has a terrible record of speech suppression. Your semantics do nothing to change that.



Russia's record on free speech wasn't the argument.  The argument was whether people get jailed for 'likes'.  They don't.

Perhaps it's you who needs to try a little honesty.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26529133 - 03/11/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No, that's what you tried to turn the argument into.  Allow me to quote this thread:

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Russian people have been getting arrested for posting on social media for years now...idk how you haven’t heard of it from all your Russian contacts.





That's what it's about.  It's about the oppression of citizens for talking shit on the internet.  Even you seem to admit now that this is happening, yet you're claiming some kind of moral victory based on some silly issue about "likes," whatever the fuck a "like" is.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] * 3
    #26529170 - 03/11/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Look, it’s 7 “terrorists”:rofl2:





The entire case is based on confessions the defendants were forced to agree to via intense torture as well as weapons planted by police and an extremely tenuous accusation that they were “planning to plan terrorist actions to overthrow the government of Russia.”

This article has a lot of the details, including direct evidence of torture: https://crimethinc.com/2018/03/26/why-the-torture-cases-in-russia-matter-how-the-tactics-that-the-russian-state-uses-against-anarchists-could-spread

Considering that we are talking about a “crime” without victims that involved no action and no plan, the sentences decreed by the court are shockingly draconian. Dmitry Pchelintsev and Ilya Shakursky, the supposed organizers of this fabricated “Network,” were sentenced to 18 years and 16 years in prison, respectively. The others have been sentenced as follows: Arman Sagynbaev 6 years, Andrei Chernov 14 years, Vasily Kuksov 9 years, Mikhail Kulkov 10 years, and Maxim Ivankin 13 years of imprisonment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/10/russian-anti-fascist-group-network-jail
Quote:

A Russian court has issued harsh sentences to seven antifascist and anarchist activists in a controversial domestic terrorism case marred by claims that investigators tortured the defendants to elicit confessions.

[...]

Influential human rights groups have called the case fabricated and said the men may have been targeted for their political activism. Four of the men on trial said they had been tortured with beatings and electrocution during the investigation. In December, Memorial human rights centre, one of Russia’s oldest civil rights organisations, had called for the charges to be dropped.

“It is obvious that the prosecution of the antifascist activists in Penza, part of ongoing repressive measures against anarchists and antifascists that sharply increased in 2017–2018, is politically motivated,” the organisation wrote.

[...]

Oleg Orlov of Memorial said: “This is a monstrously harsh verdict, but we didn’t expect anything else.”

The prosecution accused the men of allegedly planning attacks, but gave little concrete detail about when or where they would take place. Investigators originally claimed that the men planned to target the 2018 World Cup or the presidential elections, but those charges were not reflected in the final criminal case.

The men had played airsoft together, an activity which the prosecution said was training for attacks. In 2019, the Network was named an extremist organisation, alongside groups like Islamic State.

“Even if these guys really did discuss a future revolution … crime starts when people make a particular plan, and they were not accused of making any certain plan,” said Alexander Verkhovsky, the director of Moscow’s Sova centre, which monitors extremism and the government’s countermeasures in Russia.

Four of the defendants said that they had been tortured during the investigation, accusing members of the Federal Security Service (FSB) of resorting to beatings and the use of electrocution to garner confessions.

Dmitry Pchelintsev, 27, an antifascist activist from Penza, was sentenced to 18 years in prison for allegedly creating the Network. He and his co-defendants have denied the group ever existed.

In testimony to his lawyer, Pchelintsev said that he admitted to planning terrorist attacks after being detained and tortured with electricity by security officers. He described clenching his teeth from the pain and his mouth being “full of blood”.

“They started to take off my underwear, I was lying facedown, they tried to connect the wires to my genitals,” he said in remarks published by MediaZona. “I started to scream and beg them to stop torturing me. They started saying: ‘You are the leader.’ To stop the torture, I said: ‘I am the leader.’”




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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
    #26529202 - 03/11/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
I don’t read that site. I googled the story and it was the first link.

What a weak excuse man, I expected better.



Propaganda is a weak excuse?  It's now ok to use?  :flowstone:

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Here’s the second link from the search results, and another one your sig says is from a non-establishment source :tongue:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-11/putin-rethinks-russian-crackdown-on-social-media-memes
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/world/europe/russia-domestic-violence.html

Edit: whooops, the nyt one is unrelated. Google needs work.



Bloomberg is now a pay site.  If you have a subscription, can you copy/paste the article?

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Here’s a replacement. It’s from TheMoscowTimes FFS
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/10/04/will-russia-stop-arresting-citizens-for-memes-a63090



That was just an opinion piece asking whether Putin's softening the extremism law is good enough.

There's always a fine balance between how far you let people go once you realize they're plotting to overthrow the Government.

I guess you like how they did things in Ukraine, where people in Kiev overthrew the elected President with a President chosen by the United States and then called it 'democracy'?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil]
    #26529212 - 03/11/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The argument was whether people get jailed for 'likes'.  They don't.




Quote:

Enlil said:
No, that's what you tried to turn the argument into.  Allow me to quote this thread:

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Russian people have been getting arrested for posting on social media for years now...idk how you haven’t heard of it from all your Russian contacts.





That's what it's about.  It's about the oppression of citizens for talking shit on the internet.  Even you seem to admit now that this is happening, yet you're claiming some kind of moral victory based on some silly issue about "likes," whatever the fuck a "like" is.



People are not getting jailed for "likes".  That's a fact, not a moral victory.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26529218 - 03/11/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Dude, it’s not “asking” if it’s good enough. It’s asking if it’s real and saying the best case scenario is a “light” 15-day sentence...for likes and memes.
Here’s the actual tag line of the MOSCOW TIMES article
Quote:

After Putin proposes softening an extremism law, skeptics say the liberalization is a facade.




Here’s another MOSCOW TIMES article detailing the jailing AND imprisonment of an 18-year-old girl , among 5 other young Russians for posting to a chat room. (she’s on house arrest now, but before the media attention she did spend time in prison).
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/08/15/a-russian-teenagers-chat-group-became-fsb-snare-a62529

I can literally do this all day, that’s how many times this happened


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
    #26529220 - 03/11/20 01:59 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Sure they were jailed. Like anyone who gets booked.

jail
/jāl/
Learn to pronounce
verb
past tense: jailed; past participle: jailed
put (someone) in jail.

If you’re gonna argue semantics, get it right. I was wrong to say “spent time in jail” cause that implies a prison sentence. But they were definitely jailed


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26529226 - 03/11/20 02:06 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The entire case is based on confessions the defendants were forced to agree to via intense torture as well as weapons planted by police and an extremely tenuous accusation that they were “planning to plan terrorist actions to overthrow the government of Russia.”



...according to the convicted themselves.

I'll see if I can get a Russian friend of mine to find something in Russian on this.  I'm fairly certain there's more than what the anarchists claim.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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