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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
    #26527610 - 03/10/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:

The answer to the OP is obvious - if it was possible, and someone was convinced, beyond a doubt, of the Bible stories being true, the only thing left to do would be good Christians.






It’s the only honest answer to OPs loaded question.

I’m with you. :popcorn: Lets see if he has anything reasonably convincing. My guess is, even if so, we will never be 100% convinced of everything the Bible says. Maybe on some points.

I would like to point out that you mentioned the original gospel writers not being alive during Jesus lifetime. How do you know? I mean, it isn’t a strong counterpoint. It’s well known that the first copies we currently have are not the originals. It is assumed the original texts can be dated earlier than whatever the earliest copy you would like to choose. If we want to show the idea that, the writers were not alive at the same time Christ was, or that they took popular myth and codified it into a new sect well after Jesus’ death, We must look elsewhere than document dating. All it will do is place the original text of the author closer to Jesus lifetime.

Not having original texts of ancient manuscripts isn’t a problem either. It’s normal.


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26527677 - 03/10/20 04:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Ah but it is.

The Torah hasn’t been changed (supposedly) ever. One from before Jesus’ birth is an exact replica of one written today.

And it makes sense why they claim it hasn’t changed for 5000+ years - how could people alter god’s word and get away with it? Surely god would make sure every soul hears HIS gospel, not some director’s cut that’s been edited for dramatic effect.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
    #26527726 - 03/10/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
It would be pretty hard to have identical accounts from people who lived during different time periods.




Are you under the impression that contemporaraneous eyewitness accounts are usually identical?  I think people who compile such witness accounts for a living, like police detectives, would tell you differently.  Eyewitness accounts of the same events often vary significantly, one witness mentioning all sorts of details that are omitted by others.... In fact... that is one of the signature markings of genuine eyewitness accounts.  (When a detective interviews different people and gets an identical story, it is often assumed that they are colluding to get their stories straight.)

Anyways, taking your argument about different gospel dates, why wouldn't the more recent authors just copy down the supposed mythical/fabricated accounts that came before them?

That makes the appearance of discrepancies and varied accounts even more puzzling.  If this is all a story somebody made up, then why aren't the later gospel authors like John sticking to it?

It grows even more enigmatic as we examine these differences between the gospels in detail, which I hope to do shortly.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
    #26527863 - 03/10/20 05:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Ah but it is.

The Torah hasn’t been changed (supposedly) ever. One from before Jesus’ birth is an exact replica of one written today.

And it makes sense why they claim it hasn’t changed for 5000+ years - how could people alter god’s word and get away with it? Surely god would make sure every soul hears HIS gospel, not some director’s cut that’s been edited for dramatic effect.




So, now you are arguing in favor of the Torah being the preserved word of God?
You also seem to be admitting that this “god” has a personal will and ability to directly influence the world. :grin:

I thought we were talking about the New Testament? :shrug:

LoL, I’m sorry man, I am not trying to be a butthole( too much ), I do like your personality. :sun:

It’s only that I have heard a lot of the debate over this stuff is hashed and rehashed. And I think it’s fun on both sides. :laugh:

I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything, just in case you thought so, I was just giving a heads up on a tough position for the critic of the gospels to maintain in a full on debate.

Also, in a god vs. no god debate, which this isn’t, don’t ever admit god has a personal will and ability to enact it. It’s like giving the game away. :thumbup:

Why don’t I listen to myself..... first post I said I knew shouldn’t be involved with a post like this. Wait until saved7 comes back, he is loading up now. Hopefully, he can steer this a little away from full on formal debate, and a bit more towards evangelism. LOL! :grin:


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
    #26527882 - 03/10/20 05:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

audiophoenix said:
Yes there's the fact that 4 people telling a story will never have all the same details, however this is a written history of events. I would expect some more scrutiny with regards to many important dates and facts that are different.

In the case of a holy text especially, this is God's word to all humanity and believed to be ordained. Why would he allow such mistakes to be made?




I think these are typically not mistakes at all but cases where someone is jumping to conclusions because they want there to be mistakes.  It usually involves only a superficial appearance of a contradiction between gospels, without examining the context more carefully.

For example, it is claimed there is a contradiction between the number of women that find Jesus' empty tomb. 
Matthew 28:1 ,Mark 16:1 ,and Luke 24:1 have multiple women at the tomb, while John 20:1 seems to only have one woman, Mary Magdalene, at the tomb.

This only appears to be a contradiction until you see Mary using the term "we" in John 20:2, indicating that she had been with others at the tomb.
(And really even without that 'we' qualifier, it wouldn't necessarily be a contradiction, only an omission of details contained in the other gospels)

I'd be happy to delve into more detail later on.

Quote:

audiophoenix said:
Many christians I talk to believe that the bible is the literal word of god. Maybe that's not your take, and if that's the case I give a bit more lenience to the facts, but then you have to consider that the bible is a canonized document.
The canonization of the books in the bible left out lots of other gospels that have even more massive inconsistencies.





Because the other 'gospels' were recognized to be frauds by the early church who studied them, as early as the 2nd century AD. 

It's not like the early church just randomly selected certain books to stick with.  The false writings were obvious and recognizable to them. 

That should tell you something about the 4 canonical gospels.

Do you find it a stange coincidence that the early church fathers always vouched for the 4 canonical gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John as genuine accounts... while rejecting others (like the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Peter, etc.) as being false writings?


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26527933 - 03/10/20 06:24 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

It would make zero difference to me. Even if it was 100% fiction (and I do think he was a real historical person), I think the character is still a good role model.

Assuming the stuff about eternal salvation and all that was true (which I strongly suspect it is not), I'm not sure trying to be a good person really "counts" in the same way if you're doing it out of self-interest. IMO you should try to be a decent person to others anyway, even if there is no bonus round after you die (which, again, I really doubt.)


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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26527970 - 03/10/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Why is there a wait to prove skeptics wrong. Why wouldn't you delve right into the facts? You continue to ask what ifs....kinda like the show ancient aliens.

You said in one of your posts that christianity spread really fast....would the holy crusades or the like of the spanish inquisition have anything to do with that? I feel a lot of people would say they believe in something for the sake of not being slaughtered or burned at the stake....etc.

I would love to have a benevolent god, but i dont think there is and you have demonstrated no proof of such.


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26528006 - 03/10/20 07:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Quote:

feldman114 said:
Ah but it is.

The Torah hasn’t been changed (supposedly) ever. One from before Jesus’ birth is an exact replica of one written today.

And it makes sense why they claim it hasn’t changed for 5000+ years - how could people alter god’s word and get away with it? Surely god would make sure every soul hears HIS gospel, not some director’s cut that’s been edited for dramatic effect.




So, now you are arguing in favor of the Torah being the preserved word of God?
You also seem to be admitting that this “god” has a personal will and ability to directly influence the world. :grin:

I thought we were talking about the New Testament? :shrug:

LoL, I’m sorry man, I am not trying to be a butthole( too much ), I do like your personality. :sun:

It’s only that I have heard a lot of the debate over this stuff is hashed and rehashed. And I think it’s fun on both sides. :laugh:

I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything, just in case you thought so, I was just giving a heads up on a tough position for the critic of the gospels to maintain in a full on debate.

Also, in a god vs. no god debate, which this isn’t, don’t ever admit god has a personal will and ability to enact it. It’s like giving the game away. :thumbup:

Why don’t I listen to myself..... first post I said I knew shouldn’t be involved with a post like this. Wait until saved7 comes back, he is loading up now. Hopefully, he can steer this a little away from full on formal debate, and a bit more towards evangelism. LOL! :grin:




I knew all that:shrug:
And no lol I’m not trying to convert you to Jewdeism, I’m not religious in any way, shape or form


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114] * 1
    #26528019 - 03/10/20 07:09 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Quote:

feldman114 said:
It would be pretty hard to have identical accounts from people who lived during different time periods.




Are you under the impression that contemporaraneous eyewitness accounts are usually identical?  I think people who compile such witness accounts for a living, like police detectives, would tell you differently.  Eyewitness accounts of the same events often vary significantly, one witness mentioning all sorts of details that are omitted by others.... In fact... that is one of the signature markings of genuine eyewitness accounts.  (When a detective interviews different people and gets an identical story, it is often assumed that they are colluding to get their stories straight.)

Anyways, taking your argument about different gospel dates, why wouldn't the more recent authors just copy down the supposed mythical/fabricated accounts that came before them?

That makes the appearance of discrepancies and varied accounts even more puzzling.  If this is all a story somebody made up, then why aren't the later gospel authors like John sticking to it?

It grows even more enigmatic as we examine these differences between the gospels in detail, which I hope to do shortly.



Quote:

feldman114 said:
It would be pretty hard to have identical accounts from people who lived during different time periods.

The answer to the OP is obvious - if it was possible, and someone was convinced, beyond a doubt, of the Bible stories being true, the only thing left to do would be good Christians.

But it is NOT possible. Idk what proof you’re cooking up, but most religious scholars agree that it’s impossible to KNOW. Their argument is that god does this on purpose, so people rely on faith. If you know something for a fact, there’s no faith involved.
I say that’s a weak ass argument. But I’m also staying tuned for the alleged evidence.:popcorn:




You’re twisting my words, I never said that

Still waiting for the evidence
:popcorn:


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
    #26528044 - 03/10/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Influence said:
Why is there a wait to prove skeptics wrong. Why wouldn't you delve right into the facts? You continue to ask what ifs....kinda like the show ancient aliens.

You said in one of your posts that christianity spread really fast....would the holy crusades or the like of the spanish inquisition have anything to do with that? I feel a lot of people would say they believe in something for the sake of not being slaughtered or burned at the stake....etc.

I would love to have a benevolent god, but i dont think there is and you have demonstrated no proof of such.




I think he is casting doubt on common opposing arguments. And asking his audience to remain as open to his proposed evidence as they would with other common subjects. Such as the examples of detective investigating something. Or, ordinary historical facts, like canonization.

Pretty much all the apostles, early fathers and a good number of normal Christians were killed and tortured because of their belief, prior to Constantine. I wonder why they didn’t renounce and accept the state religion? I say this to show the problem with the claim that of course people would convert to Christianity under threats of violence. It seems as if the early Christians were able to resist conversion, I can imagine that the pagans and romans could have resisted too. And undoubtedly many Christians did renounce, and many pagans did convert as well. I don’t think we can pin it’s rapid spread on forced conversions alone.

It’s kind of amazing that Christianity made it out of Jerusalem at all.

And, I must add, that any Christian of the Protestant version, who was worth their salt, would denounce the atrocities carried out in Gods name during the Spanish Inquisition and probably half the crusades right along with you. They hate Catholics. Lol

Anyway, have you read saved7 other posts???? Guy can write a book. He is just warming up.


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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26528115 - 03/10/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I really mean no offense when I say this, but when I address someone and something they stated I am aiming to hear their response. My literary comprehension is above average so I know what he was trying to say. In addition I have read every post in this thread. I have no doubt he could write a book, so can a lot of people. He, in all his book writing has only skirted around any kind of evidence or demonstrations he claims to have.

If you have any evidence please show it or allow the op to speak for himself. As I said I am addressing his claims. If someone could provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt I would become a Christian (as I once was).

And maybe you should look how long christianity was around before they were attacked for their beliefs. Another point would be that if there was a benevolent god that had looked out for his people before,  why would he allow people to slaughter millions in his name? He must've gotten tired after helping the hebrews out of Egypt.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
    #26528180 - 03/10/20 08:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

And I really mean no offense as well.

Clearly, this is a public forum and I can respond to who ever I please. As, apparently, can you.

Beyond that, no where in this thread does OP or anyone else claim they are going to convert you. Don’t get nervous.

You seem concerned that there is not enough evidence for the gospels being accurate, but then you bring red herrings like the inquisition along, and now you are changing subjects to wether a god would or would not will the death of millions, a god you claim you don’t believe in, in the first place. I don’t suppose you notice a problem there?

Anyway, you are obviously prickly enough, that we won’t be able to have productive dialogue, so, I will avoid responding to you, unless you directly address me. I was honestly trying to help, but, that’s the way it goes... I refer to my original post on this thread. Peace.

To keep it balanced, let me point to an objection I have to the same claim you raised.

saved7, what makes you think that the rapid spread of Christianity is any kind of evidence for the claims within Christianity or the Bible itself? Islam is one of the fastest growing religions right now, should we take that as an evidence for the validity of Islam as well? Not wanting to bring Islam into it, just as an example where we might think differently about a subject based on our preferences. Lots of ideas and beliefs spread quickly, I don’t think the quickness or slowness of adoption rate for new ideas relates to the accuracy of said ideas and beliefs.

And further, you make a claim that the early councils acceptance of the 4 gospels is interesting. I am curious why you think it’s so interesting. Just because the councils rejected other books that were in circulation at the time is no kind of evidence for the credibility of the events portrayed within the accepted texts.

If we try and say that a religious councils approvals and disapproval’s of its own texts were evidence for the contents of the text, shouldn’t we also say that any religious body who approves of their own texts could claim that same type of “evidence”?


Edited by Shr00mEater (03/10/20 10:02 PM)


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Invisibledbreeze
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26528633 - 03/11/20 07:21 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Ok so like the OP said WHAT IF....Ok what if it was proven true. I guess everyone take on it would be different. Even if it was proven to be true there is always more to seek. IT wouldn't be the end of the story or even the beginning of the story for me. There is always more that i dont know people that admit that are seekers. So what would it mean to you? would that mean you would think all other religions dont have truth to them? Would you just dismiss things like Hinduism? Me no i wouldnt. maybe things happen and things are reveled at different times to further our evolution. Is there one god or many? There used to be many gods now most believe in 1 god. So how could both be true The hindu idea of many gods being different faces of the same god explains this. Just as we have a ego but there is a underlying truth that we are all connected as one. So yeh for me things wouldnt change much its just 1 story proven to be true but that doesnt eliminate other storys for me. There is SO MUCH mystery out there and some of it probilly wont ever be PR0VEN one way or another. But i think its ment to be like that so each individual has to figure out what they believe and have faith on some things and come to their own truths. But the bottom line for me is that there are MANY things i do not know. I dont KNOW what happends when we die. I have my beliefs and have faith on some things but i am smart enough to know that i DONT KNOW. Sometimes when you have a belief and you take that as absolute truth you will dismiss others things that dont fall in line with that belief.....but as i said in my mind contradictory ideas can both be true. First off there is time and thing evolve and progress but even that things like the self ego AND the idea that we are all one (wich would be contradictory) can both be true


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
    #26529186 - 03/11/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Okay, here goes.  Thanks for being patient:

First a little bit of introduction to the topic of eyewitness reporting with an excerpt from Hidden in Plain View: Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels and Acts by Lydia McGrew
p.16

Casual comments, allusions, and omissions that fit together are not what one would find in different fictional or fictionalized works written by different people.  They are also not to be expected among different legendary stories that grew up gradually long after the events.  They are the sort of thing that one gets in real witness testimony from people close-up to real events.


quote from J. Warner Wallace, a homocide detective:

"Often, questions an eyewitness raises at the time of the crime are left unanswered until we locate an additional witness years later.  This is a common characteristic of true, reliable eyewitness accounts.
It's my job to assemble the complete picture of what happened at the scene.  No single witness is likely to have seen every detail, so I must piece together the accounts, allowing the observations of one eyewitness to fill in the gaps that may exist in the observations of another eyewitness... True, reliable eyewitness accounts are never completely parallel and identical.  Instead, they are different pieces of the same puzzle, unintentionally supporting and complementing each other to provide all the details related to what really happened.
"


Now for the first example (of many) of these types of eyewitness coincidences from the Gospels of the New Testament:

In the gospels of Matthew and Mark, Jesus is captured and brought before the Jewish high council where his accusers claim that he threatened to destroy the Temple in Jerusalem.
------------------------------------------------
And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying, "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands."
- Mark 14:57-58

At last two came forward and sad, "This man said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days."

- Matthew 26:60-61
---------------------------------------------

Yet none of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) contain any such statement by Jesus.  Nothing about destroying the Temple, or rebuilding it in three days.  Nothing at all to explain the origin of this accusation.

It is only in the Gospel of John that we find the explanation of the accusation, in a completely different passage concerning a completely different time period in Jesus' ministry:

------------------------------------------------
The passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.  In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there.  And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen.  And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables...  So the Jews said to him, "What sign do you show us for doing these things?"  Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."  The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"  But he was speaking about the temple of his body.
John 2:13-21
------------------------------------------

And while the gospel of John gives the explanation for the accusation, it does not mention the accusation itself before the Jewish council as the other Synoptic gospels do.

In other words, the variations between the gospel accounts fit together like puzzle pieces to form a complete picture.  Matthew and Mark have the accusation but not its explanation.  John has the explanation but no accusation.  They are unintentionally confirming the reality of actual events, the same way that different details of multiple eyewitness testimonies will confirm each other if truthful.


(don't read too much into this picture.. I just wanted something visual to look at capturing the "puzzle pieces" concept)

This is exactly the type of pattern we would expect from genuine eyewitness testimonies and totally contrary to an expected pattern of a made-up story, myth, or fabrication.  These unintentional or undesigned coincidences are the fingerprints of truthful memoirs.

Also, it's important to note that this is a cumulative argument.  If it were just one or two instances of this pattern occurring, it might be easy to dismiss it as a strange fluke... yet these types of coincidences in the gospel testimonies occur frequently across the entire span of Jesus' ministry...
(I will try and post many more)
...and more importantly the same forensic pattern holds whether referring to miraculous or non-miraculous claims.  The gospels of the NT exhibit all the character of being the product of actual eyewitness testimony of the same basic events viewed from multiple angles.

This doesn't necessarily prove the accounts of Jesus to be true.. but it is powerful evidence that the four gospels of the New Testament, far from being made up stories or embellishments, are indeed eyewitness testimonies from people trying to truthfully recount their experience of the same basic events. 

The skeptic is left trying to explain how this pattern could exist, if not for the simple explanation that the gospel testimonies about Jesus are true.


So this is my first attempt to lay out a rather complex argument in a brief post.  Hope it wasn't confusing. I will be happy to expound further, add more examples of course, and try and answer questions to the best of my ability.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Offlineaudiophoenix
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26529274 - 03/11/20 02:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

:popcorn:

I bowed out, but look forward to the rebuttal.

This is a pretty classic apologist cherry picking argument.


--------------------


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
    #26529443 - 03/11/20 04:34 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I will quickly concede that the original gospel text was written by either an eyewitness, a ghostwriter, or someone close enough to the scene to provide details.

I do not believe it could be demonstrated that they are concocted fables or that the authors were more than a generation removed from the time of the events.

I am still not sure how you plan to deal with the obvious bias the authors share towards their own claims. I don’t doubt that they had a sincere belief in what is claimed. But, even truth telling first hand witnesses can be subject to their own preferred perspectives and interpretations of actual events.

And of course, could it be possible that the writers were simply mistaken, especially, once we get to the grander claims?

You don’t need to address this contention specifically if it isn’t within the scope of your presentation. I am content to see where other posters have problems with your argument. This first point seems solid enough for me. :thumbup:


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
    #26529458 - 03/11/20 04:42 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

audiophoenix said:
:popcorn:

I bowed out, but look forward to the rebuttal.

This is a pretty classic apologist cherry picking argument.




I didn't cherry-pick anything. I just chose one simple example to lead with and will gladly post a bunch more over the next few days.  There are lots of them.

These types of 'undesigned coincidences' (unintentional confirmations of each other) are prevalent throughout the four gospels. 
The Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) explain unanswered things in John.  John explains unanswered things in the Synoptic Gospels.  The Synoptic Gospels explain unanswered things in each other.

The pattern runs everywhere in all directions, and the resulting image is just like the forensic signature of truthful eyewitness testimony recorded from multiple individuals...  People witnessing the same major events, but from different angles, noticing different details, many of which only make sense when you compare them to the other witnesses points of view.

...all of which runs completely contrary to the popular notion that the gospels are just fanciful stories or legendary embellishments that grew up out of traditions or mythology.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
    #26529509 - 03/11/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

audiophoenix said:
:popcorn:

I bowed out, but look forward to the rebuttal.

This is a pretty classic apologist cherry picking argument.




Cherry picking is also a classic accusation from the other side. 😊

It’s not really a fair accusation. Of course he is picking his best evidence, and leaving out the points for the other side! It’s normal debate. It’s up to us to knock holes in his case. He is representing the positive case, we as the opposition get to call into question his claims, and posit claims of our own.

It is the same reason you won’t hear republicans make many arguments in favor of social services, or that democrats don’t talk about the validity of firearms in a self defense situation.

If we really think he is cherry picking, we should find something that would show how he ignoring certain data in favor of others. That’s a big problem with some of these kinds of debates..... the atheist side won’t take the time to try and understand the actual arguments that the Christian is making, they don’t seem to realize that Christian philosophers have been practicing this stuff for centuries.

So, at the end of the day, we all will talk past each other. The Christian side goes home thinking their guy won, the atheist side goes home thinking their side won. :shrug:

I think a lot of the god vs. no god comes down to a persons take on materialism, if someone is a strict by the book materialist... good luck Christian!

Luckily, most people only think they are materialists, usually they still behave, speak and think like a dualist.

Sorry, I am just ranting now. I’m excited for when we get to the good stuff. This first argument, I am not to keen on challenging. I don’t think it matters wether the authors were contemporary with Jesus, I also don’t find it problematic to consider that they are actual reports of, at least some, actual events.

I am most interested in his reasons for believing the messianic claims of the gospels. I can easily accept that a man named Jesus said he was the messiah, I can see a few reasons that the authors would believe him and write it down. I’m just not sure how this relates to wether or not he actually was the messiah.


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Offlinesaved7
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Registered: 06/10/19
Posts: 203
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26529564 - 03/11/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
I will quickly concede that the original gospel text was written by either an eyewitness, a ghostwriter, or someone close enough to the scene to provide details.

I do not believe it could be demonstrated that they are concocted fables or that the authors were more than a generation removed from the time of the events.

I am still not sure how you plan to deal with the obvious bias the authors share towards their own claims. I don’t doubt that they had a sincere belief in what is claimed. But, even truth telling first hand witnesses can be subject to their own preferred perspectives and interpretations of actual events.

And of course, could it be possible that the writers were simply mistaken, especially, once we get to the grander claims?

You don’t need to address this contention specifically if it isn’t within the scope of your presentation. I am content to see where other posters have problems with your argument. This first point seems solid enough for me. :thumbup:




I think the fact that there are 4 separate gospel authors (written at different times) all converging on the same basic telling of events (with the unintentional confirmations of each others' accounts that you find in patterns of multiple eywitness testimony of events today) makes it very challenging to claim this was either a fabricated story, or some kind of shared hallucination or trance.  In both those cases you would not expect to find the kind of interplay of details between the gospels.  It is a pattern that would almost certainly 'catch' a manufactured story or myth, regardless of the biases of the witnesses.

It's noteworthy that the Gospel of John is believed by everyone to have been written much later than the 3 Synoptic Gospels (Matthew,Mark,Luke)...  many years later when he was likely a very old man.  It is here especially that you'd expect such an eyewitness signature to break down, but instead of John merely copying information from the older Gospels, he has his own perspective of the events, and provides just the same multi-witness pattern of unintentionally answering subtle details left unexplained in the Synoptics, and likewise presenting other subtle questions that are only answered in the Synoptics.

And again, this pattern persists whether or not it is dealing with miraculous or non-miraculous claims.  I will present more examples ASAP.  (and btw, none of this is original research of mine! I'm just a lowly servant passing it along!)


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Offlinefeldman114
Stragler


Registered: 09/06/19
Posts: 3,365
Loc: Bravos
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26529589 - 03/11/20 06:03 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Still waiting for the proof (haven’t seen any yet):popcorn:


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