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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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the scientific soul * 4
    #26529099 - 03/11/20 12:44 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

As Dr. Henry Stapp has demonstrated, the only reasonable way to conceive of mind is to posit that there is a top-level wavefunction, distributed over the whole brain via entanglement, governing all of an individual’s activity. If we look at another branch of physics, we see that information is conserved – it can never be destroyed anywhere in nature. So we have Stapp’s quantum state of the self, which we must say constitutes pure information. And we also know information does not vanish. So we can say that this information never dies, and there is all sorts of room in there to suppose that the very core of our being does not perish when we expire. We already today have the tools in physics to support and, realistically, assert this.

So we may say that the consciousness of Earthly, and by extension, universal living beings cannot be destroyed, and this brings to bear a deep validity with respect to the mystical traditions. One must admit that soul transmigration is explicitly allowed by modern science, and even suggested. This is not pop-science, or sloppy mystical thinking. As Dr. Stapp and other have pointed out (among them are Dr. Penrose and Dr. Hameroff), the soul can be real, free will can be real, and death simply must be some sort of biological illusion.

Once again, science doesn’t discount this, and as these truly eminent and respected thinkers have stated, it is a direct and logical conclusion in an unbiased interpretation of its formalism.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26529145 - 03/11/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Great post :thumbup: This is really interesting. Makes sense that it's only a matter of time before science catches up.


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Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: PocketLady] * 4
    #26529241 - 03/11/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, if the human race can manage not to destroy itself, we can make some meaningful progress over the next few decades. Of course, we all know that the East has superior spiritual and psychological knowledge than the West, which is rather pathetic in those areas, mostly. But of course, the Eastern philosophies had basically no science at all. If there is a combination of the two, I don't care about technological or economic applications, what I care about is the knowledge it will give us.

As you point out, science has some catching up to do, but the Eastern knowledge, armed with scientific sophistication, could possibly be very freeing for our species and this planet. To get too far into that is off-topic, but I think these ideas are very relevant for our mental and spiritual lives.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: DividedQuantum] * 3
    #26530783 - 03/12/20 11:16 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

It's nice to read about models that close the gap between the metaphysical and the physical. The 'missing link' is still there, that hiatus between the Kantian noumena and phenomena. I simply use the word Mystery because it includes a transcendental horizon which will always exceed the grasp of the intellect. The transcendental (spiritual) is mercurial which is why in alchemy Philosophical Mercury is the term for Spirit. Quicksilver cannot be 'grasped' (siphoned, vacuumed yes, but not grasped. The metaphor has its limitations).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinebanquet
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26539842 - 03/17/20 02:11 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:Once again, science doesn’t discount this, and as these truly eminent and respected thinkers have stated, it is a direct and logical conclusion in an unbiased interpretation of its formalism.




Sri Aurobindo

Quote:


Discoveries of Science

Our science is an abstract cold and brief
That cuts in formulas the living whole.
It has a brain and head but not a soul:
It sees all things in outward carved relief.

But how without its depths can the world be known?
The visible has its roots in the unseen
And each invisible hides what it can mean
In a yet deeper invisible, unshown.

The objects that you probe are not their form.
Each is a mass of forces thrown in shape.
The forces caught, their inner lines escape
In a fathomless consciousness beyond mind’s norm.

Probe it and you shall meet a Being still
Infinite, nameless, mute, unknowable.




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Offlinebanquet
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26539855 - 03/17/20 02:31 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
there is a top-level wavefunction, distributed over the whole brain via entanglement, governing all of an individual’s activity.




science is trying to explain something but how will it explain nothingness, or infinity, infinity gradations and infinite interpentrating planes all affecting each other in some ether, this is beyond words and language it is a vision or even beyond vision to Being, which is All at once.

what i found science is to be a force of Nature, Nature-made, but Soul is said to be involved in Nature, must evolve and master Nature, so Soul Realisation is the easiest way to the Knowledge.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: banquet] * 2
    #26543780 - 03/19/20 01:11 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Infinity is close to the soul.. they are both the color yellow (gold) same as enlightenment and light it self in the physical sense.

Emptiness and nothing is black..

Hence black and yellow is emptiness which allows light to travel within it.. always in the grips of dark matter and dark energy.. vacuuming up the photons.. conservation of light for the purposes of life!

Nothing as an idea is an abstract idea.. so it can be said to exist in any form..

The brow is in sorting nothing.. squares? Maybe and yes it's possible!
Hallelujah!

The practice is in the art of crafting..?

Straight and perfectly narrow is the light of all time and life. I know this now.. The sphere is a symbol for all culpability. The holy sepheroth in their numerable meanings.

Light is a gradient for consciousness. The Egyptian life and death initiation is like this.. As a side Marijuana brings light to the soul.. if you do not realize this the ki, turns to kai.. or otherwise strain. DXM is like ice.. or the void of everythimg which is objective.

Consciousness vibrates on a wave length... and every wave form is made of light.. The light you see outside of you is responsible for the vacuum. Or should I say that light is transmitted through a vacuum.

So nothing in an ex nihilo kind of way or one of infinite depth is between and covering all things infinitely..

Ain is nothing.. The highest high.

Ain sof is unending infinity..

Ain sof aur is the never ending light.. which comes from the soul!


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26560019 - 03/26/20 08:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
As Dr. Henry Stapp has demonstrated, the only reasonable way to conceive of mind is to posit that there is a top-level wavefunction, distributed over the whole brain via entanglement, governing all of an individual’s activity.




He didn't demonstrate it, he postulated it. Big difference.
Because he can't concieve of an alternative, doesn't mean there isn't one.

Quote:


If we look at another branch of physics, we see that information is conserved – it can never be destroyed anywhere in nature.




No, energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Information is not energy. If I smash a hard drive, the information has been destroyed. The energy has been conserved.

Quote:


So we have Stapp’s quantum state of the self, which we must say constitutes pure information. And we also know information does not vanish. So we can say that this information never dies, and there is all sorts of room in there to suppose that the very core of our being does not perish when we expire.




These are assertions, not facts; because we can't yet comprehend what exactly the information is attached to, doesn't mean it's not attached to anything. Again, information =/= energy.

Quote:


We already today have the tools in physics to support and, realistically, assert this.





Assert yes. Support? No. You're missing that thing called evidence. This boils down to an argument from ignorance.

Quote:


So we may say that the consciousness of Earthly, and by extension, universal living beings cannot be destroyed, and this brings to bear a deep validity with respect to the mystical traditions. One must admit that soul transmigration is explicitly allowed by modern science, and even suggested. This is not pop-science, or sloppy mystical thinking. As Dr. Stapp and other have pointed out (among them are Dr. Penrose and Dr. Hameroff), the soul can be real, free will can be real, and death simply must be some sort of biological illusion.




A whole bunch of assertions based on faulty logic. Theories of transmigration persist because we are afraid to die.

Quote:


Once again, science doesn’t discount this, and as these truly eminent and respected thinkers have stated, it is a direct and logical conclusion in an unbiased interpretation of its formalism.




I disagree. Attempting to mash consciousness and quantum mechanics seems to me, to be a clear case of using a new and misunderstood area of science to try to shield one's self from the fear of non-existence.

The majority of the scientific community does not accept any of this, because it lacks evidence. Assertions on top of assertions don't add up to proof.


--------------------
LAGM2020
LAGM2021


Edited by Svetaketu (03/26/20 08:55 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: Svetaketu]
    #26560073 - 03/26/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

This is not a debate forum. If you need to vent, try PS&P.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26560088 - 03/26/20 09:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I don't mean to vent, I just felt that you presented this as being very scientific. I don't believe it is.

Apologies for sharing my opinion :shrug:


--------------------
LAGM2020
LAGM2021


Edited by Svetaketu (03/26/20 09:27 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: Svetaketu] * 2
    #26560095 - 03/26/20 09:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

No, I don't mean to stifle opinions. I would say that to some people, modern scientific principles support certain conclusions, and to others they don't. Nobody has proof either way. So we can all hold whatever opinions we wish. :smile:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26560136 - 03/26/20 09:50 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I suppose that's fair.

You are certainly entitled to you own interpretation and opinion :thumbup:


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LAGM2020
LAGM2021


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: Svetaketu]
    #26560340 - 03/27/20 01:29 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think it's best not to be too obsessed with all this reincarnation stuff though. Your job is basically the same either way. As a human being you gotta rid yourself of the ego and all it's traps, loops, and sticky wickets. Trouble is most people don't take this seriously at all. They just happy where they are, and this has been one of the problems of Hindu thought, they all thought well eventually I'll get there so fuck it. Then in the west you have the opposite problem, if you are certain you are going to be dead soon then nothing much really matters any more does it? Just do whatever you want and don't take the problem of life seriously.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Edited by Grapefruit (03/27/20 01:36 AM)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26562331 - 03/28/20 12:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

So is energy the communication or otherwise the inbetweeness of information?

How does information grow without energy?

Does energy carry a form of information?

What is information that is not being carried in our heads?


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26562995 - 03/28/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
This is not a debate forum. If you need to vent, try PS&P.




I'm not trying to call you out here, but why don't I see you invoking that rule anywhere else around here?

Seems like about half the threads I read I this forum devolve into pointless arguing but they're allowed to continue on.

Just trying to make sure I understand what the rule even is :confused:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: Forrester]
    #26563096 - 03/28/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I actually say it somewhat frequently, but perhaps not as often as I should. It's like herding cats, you see. The fact remains it is in the forum rules.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: the scientific so [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26563419 - 03/28/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

in all fairness to QD, he justly warned me the other day in SnM.  So, there’s that.

Also, this threads ops topic is :manofapproval:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26563670 - 03/28/20 04:50 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I actually say it somewhat frequently, but perhaps not as often as I should. It's like herding cats, you see. The fact remains it is in the forum rules.




Understandable, it seems like it would be a hard rule to enforce


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26563931 - 03/28/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
So is energy the communication or otherwise the inbetweeness of information?

How does information grow without energy?

Does energy carry a form of information?

What is information that is not being carried in our heads?





I think energy is more a manifestation of a substrate that could be called "information," or could be described as a fundamental process that our concepts of information refer to. Information, then, if it is not constrained by energy, is effectively infinite. So yes, I think energy carries information, but that information does not necessarily carry energy.

Everything in our heads, from pure consciousness to our thoughts to blinking an eye, is a form of information. Or you could say it is governed by a principle that our concepts of information refer to.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: the scientific soul [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26564009 - 03/28/20 07:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Energy, from the human perspective, we generally refer to as, work, as in, the animating principal which must be behind known phenomena to which we can observe through the senses naturally or with the help of various artificial apertures which can expand/enhance their inherent range.
If we apply what we know of dna and rna replication, transcription, and translation, It seems, at least within my mind- bring about a foretaste of the nature of energy, which I find an interesting approximation of the mechanics involved with the phenomena of information, and its relation with energy.  The physical body, or world as we take it, being the effulgence - or manifestation of a different order or seemingly more concretized version, of the energy behind the body’s appearance, also contains the potential to also present or display the hologram or dream like soul-self-mind or whatever word you choose to describe the nature of ones “absent yet apparent to the conscious sentient being” dimension of experience.

Ie. structure/function + complexity of the patterns of such things when compounded, give rise to the emergent nature we know as a soul/mind/self- which in itself is able to replicate, transcript, and translate, and communicate and dissemble and discern information from itself and surroundings both inner and outer, in a way only a very specialized organ  could perform.

Hence why religion posits this non organ like organ which is interdependent with the brain and other supporting organs as the crown jewel of perfection- from which the whole of experience of the world becomes possible to be known in a way that is ordinary in that all sentient beings have this , yet  mystical in that it is in a sense, the godhead, with each individual in essence being a fractal like spark of it. Illusory in that it cannot be directly pointed to by any direct means, yet known directly with prescience by each- whether ones aware of it or not- as one of two dimensions to our experience as being absent yet apparent, like a thought, or feeling, or dream, or optical illusion, or apparition, or hologram or magical illusion.

We love psychedelics because they give form to this mystery side of us for a moment, like a dream, via our private karmic propensities and conditioned predilections, and the bodies systems, as meaningfully catered hallucination through which information and energy and soul become seemingly sensorial, apparent and salient-tangible.


Guarded like an escarpment 10,000 spans high.  To whom was the information transmitted?


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (03/29/20 01:41 AM)


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