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feldman114
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Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036
#26527024 - 03/10/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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https://apple.news/AmDogBefuThiVhLVYp7I16g
Quote:
Vladimir Putin set the stage to stay on as Russia’s president for potentially another 16 years, reversing his past opposition to scrapping term limits so that he -- and only he -- can continue to rule the country.
Anyone surprised?
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VP123
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 4
#26527025 - 03/10/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Nope
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: VP123]
#26527096 - 03/10/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Allot of Trumps supporters want the same thing for him and his family .
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Brian Jones
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26527106 - 03/10/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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This is exactly what I thought the maneuver from a few months ago was about. I am surprised that the current statement is so soon and so blatant, but I'm not surprised at the level of legislative support it received.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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christopera
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Brian Jones]
#26527125 - 03/10/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Boy, what a bummer.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Brian Jones]
#26527137 - 03/10/20 11:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: This is exactly what I thought the maneuver from a few months ago was about. I am surprised that the current statement is so soon and so blatant, but I'm not surprised at the level of legislative support it received.
It’s ok, he’ll come out and say it openly in about a year, like he did with Russian troops in Crimea. Hiding lies is for dictators who don’t have a steel grip on their sheeple’s minds. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/vladimir-putin-admits-russian-military-presence-ukraine
Also... Where’s Mr. Falcon on this one? I even baited him with the “supreme leader” edit. What’s a troll gotta do to get a mostly sensible person to defend an authoritarian around here?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26527467 - 03/10/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Where’s Mr. Falcon on this one? I even baited him with the “supreme leader” edit. What’s a troll gotta do to get a mostly sensible person to defend an authoritarian around here?
The story is a bit different from how you portrayed it. I'll first summarize using a quote from your own article:
Quote:
Valentina Tereshkova, a respected United Russia lawmaker who was also the first woman in space, made the proposal to reset the term limit under the revised constitution, saying “Putin needs to be there -- in case something goes wrong.”
“This proposal will calm everyone down,” Valentina Matviyenko, speaker of the upper house of parliament, told state television. “All this discussion of who would be the successor, what would happen to national security, these are all alarming processes.”
Russians in general have FAR more respect for Putin than we have for our own president, and most Russians believe he's done an outstanding job for them. It's actually the people who don't want to let him go.
Putin said he wants to keep term limits in a proposed constitutional amendment, and said the legality of Tereshkova's proposal to reset the term limit clock after passing the term limit amendment would have to be evaluated by Russia's Constitutional Court.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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qman
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26527477 - 03/10/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Interfering in US elections for many years to come.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26527487 - 03/10/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Of course they have more respect , Putin actually spent time serving the govt he leads. Trump is just a real estate con artist . Why should we respect the lying draft dodging cunt ?
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26527509 - 03/10/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
feldman114 said: Where’s Mr. Falcon on this one? I even baited him with the “supreme leader” edit. What’s a troll gotta do to get a mostly sensible person to defend an authoritarian around here?
The story is a bit different from how you portrayed it. I'll first summarize using a quote from your own article:
Quote:
Valentina Tereshkova, a respected United Russia lawmaker who was also the first woman in space, made the proposal to reset the term limit under the revised constitution, saying “Putin needs to be there -- in case something goes wrong.”
“This proposal will calm everyone down,” Valentina Matviyenko, speaker of the upper house of parliament, told state television. “All this discussion of who would be the successor, what would happen to national security, these are all alarming processes.”
Russians in general have FAR more respect for Putin than we have for our own president, and most Russians believe he's done an outstanding job for them. It's actually the people who don't want to let him go.
Putin said he wants to keep term limits in a proposed constitutional amendment, and said the legality of Tereshkova's proposal to reset the term limit clock after passing the term limit amendment would have to be evaluated by Russia's Constitutional Court.
Phew, I was starting to get worried. Hope you’re not taking my stupid puns the wrong way. I only troll the poasters I like.
So you believe Russian lawmakers function independently of the central government? Like, do you think anything they say publicly is their actual opinion, even if it conflicts with Putin’s agenda?
I think it’s clear that no one can override Putin, regardless of the issue at hand. That considered, “her” initiative is very much Putin’s.
Quote:
Opposition to President Vladimir Putin in Russia can be divided between the parliamentary opposition parties in the State Duma and the various non-systemic opposition organizations. While the former are largely viewed as being more or less loyal to the government and Putin,[1][2] the latter oppose the government and are mostly unrepresented in government bodies.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_Vladimir_Putin_in_Russia
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 1
#26527549 - 03/10/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: So you believe Russian lawmakers function independently of the central government? Like, do you think anything they say publicly is their actual opinion, even if it conflicts with Putin’s agenda?
Yes, I do. People contradict Putin's position all the time.
Quote:
feldman114 said: I think it’s clear that no one can override Putin, regardless of the issue at hand. That considered, “her” initiative is very much Putin’s.
And I think it's clear you have a very bad case of Putin derangement syndrome. But if you have evidence to support your point of view, I'm all ears.
Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
Opposition to President Vladimir Putin in Russia can be divided between the parliamentary opposition parties in the State Duma and the various non-systemic opposition organizations. While the former are largely viewed as being more or less loyal to the government and Putin,[1][2] the latter oppose the government and are mostly unrepresented in government bodies.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_Vladimir_Putin_in_Russia
I don't know what you think you're showing here. Do people exist in Russia that hate Putin? Of course, just like in any other country. Are they a majority? Not even close.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26527562 - 03/10/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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People? Sure
Lawmakers? Nope
No member of the government opposes Putin. And that’s what my source demonstrates.
Here’s the Russian opposition’s statement on the latest news. Notice how none of the opposition leaders hold any government titles. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/28/russia-protests-constitution-boris-nemtsov-vladimir-putin/
Quote:
“The Kremlin is going to look at how many people attend the Nemtsov march,” Alexey Navalny, a leading opposition figure who has investigated high-level corruption for years, wrote on Twitter. “This will influence how brazenly they will pursue the operation to keep Putin in power. This will influence the future of political prisoners.”
The call was echoed by other opposition politicians, including Ilya Yashin, who referenced both Nemtsov and Putin’s attempted power grab in his tweet.
Nemtsov, who had been working on a report examining Russia’s role in the conflict in Ukraine, was gunned down on Feb. 27, 2015, as he strolled with his girlfriend along a bridge not far from the Kremlin. He was a liberal politician who served as a deputy prime minister during Boris Yeltsin’s presidency and became one of Putin’s most prominent opponents.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 1
#26527640 - 03/10/20 03:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Lawmakers vote against Putin all the time. The thing is that most (not all) Russians love Putin and many members of Parliament are elected accordingly. But they still have a communist party and other parties that oppose him.
As I've explained many times, Russian elections are FAR more transparent than American elections, and cheating is nearly impossible. If Russians don't want Putin beyone 2024, they simply vote him out! But public opinion polls (regardlesss of who conducts them) show that he's still very well liked. And my own travels to Russia confirm this to be the case as well.
Russia is no longer the old Communist Soviet Union, and many people around the world seem to not know this.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26527678 - 03/10/20 04:15 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
As of 2013 Russia ranked 148th out of 179 countries in the Press Freedom Index compiled by Reporters Without Borders. In the 2015 Freedom House Freedom of the Press report Russia scored 83 (100 being the worst), mostly because of new laws introduced in 2014 that further extended the state control over mass media
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Russia
Trump would have a much higher approval rating too, maybe as high as Putin’s if our media wasn’t protected by the constitution.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2] 2
#26527701 - 03/10/20 04:35 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Reporters Without Borders?
Reporters Without Borders seems to have a geopolitical agenda
Quote:
Voltaire Network has systematically exposed the financial ties between French-based NGO Reporters Without Borders and US Government/CIA front organizations. Officially devoted to "freedom of the press", RWB is best known for its smear campaigns against Washington’s political foes
Propaganda for a Price: Reporters Without Borders
Quote:
Reporters Without Borders is usually biased towards nations who Washington and Europe deem uncooperative.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26527710 - 03/10/20 04:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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That has fuck all to do with what I said . Perhaps you could explain to me all of the laws Russia has passed protecting freedom of the press in that country ? Like this one . I’m glad , so glad I don’t live in Russia . I would like Putin too .
Quote:
A new law criminalizing “disrespect” for Russian society and institutions might mark the end of the country’s few remaining legal forms of protests.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/585502/
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2] 1
#26527924 - 03/10/20 06:18 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said: Perhaps you could explain to me all of the laws Russia has passed protecting freedom of the press in that country ? Like this one . I’m glad , so glad I don’t live in Russia . I would like Putin too .
Quote:
A new law criminalizing “disrespect” for Russian society and institutions might mark the end of the country’s few remaining legal forms of protests.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/585502/
Sure, I'd be happy to explain to you. Russia is trying to protect itself from foreign interference.
One of the bills prohibits publication of “socially important” false information, which “endangers life and well-being of citizens,” incites mass disturbance of order, disruption of infrastructure, and so on. Minor infringements would be left unpunished.
The second bill prohibits publication of material, which “insults” the state and its symbols in an “obscene” fashion. The legislation shields the constitution, state symbols and all the branches of the state’s authority from insults. That does NOT mean that the citizens would be penalized for speaking out against these; such criticism could still be made in “virtually any manner, except for blatantly insulting.”
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2]
#26527935 - 03/10/20 06:25 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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The fact that Russian “opposition” parties are all Putin’s is so well known that it’s on Wikipedia lol
There’s hope though https://www.npr.org/2020/01/01/792832338/young-people-in-russia-are-rebelling-against-putins-rule
Quote:
But these days, a new generation of Russians who grew up under Putin is not so interested in how people lived before they were born. They measure themselves by their peers in Europe or the United States, and they don't like what they see. A recent poll shows more than half of these young Russians would like to leave their country. Young people are starting to rebel against Putin's rule even in Russia's conservative heartland. Here's NPR's Lucian Kim.
LUCIAN KIM, BYLINE: Dmitry Nikolayev didn't used to care about politics. He was just a normal 20-something from Tula, an arms-producing town south of Moscow. His dad was a factory worker, his mom a saleswoman in a store.
DMITRY NIKOLAYEV: (Speaking Russian).
KIM: Then out of the blue, he says, he was called in by the police. He'd posted on social media about a heavy metal band whose songs the government had labeled extremist.
Edit: the article actually touches well on the subject you’re discussing! Synchronicity braaah
Edited by feldman114 (03/10/20 06:26 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26528030 - 03/10/20 07:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: The fact that Russian “opposition” parties are all Putin’s is so well known that it’s on Wikipedia lol
Wikipedia referenced a Washington Post article for that. That Washington Post article didn't quite say that, but it did mention Putin's approval rating was about 82 percent.
Quote:
feldman114 said: There’s hope though https://www.npr.org/2020/01/01/792832338/young-people-in-russia-are-rebelling-against-putins-rule
Quote:
But these days, a new generation of Russians who grew up under Putin is not so interested in how people lived before they were born. They measure themselves by their peers in Europe or the United States, and they don't like what they see. A recent poll shows more than half of these young Russians would like to leave their country. Young people are starting to rebel against Putin's rule even in Russia's conservative heartland. Here's NPR's Lucian Kim.
LUCIAN KIM, BYLINE: Dmitry Nikolayev didn't used to care about politics. He was just a normal 20-something from Tula, an arms-producing town south of Moscow. His dad was a factory worker, his mom a saleswoman in a store.
DMITRY NIKOLAYEV: (Speaking Russian).
KIM: Then out of the blue, he says, he was called in by the police. He'd posted on social media about a heavy metal band whose songs the government had labeled extremist.
Edit: the article actually touches well on the subject you’re discussing! Synchronicity braaah
I'd be willing to bet there's a LOT more to this story than some guy posting about a heavy metal band. There always is. The only thing your article covers is the arrested guy's point of view.
It makes for a more interesting story to the West when you leave out the other side's point of view.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26528079 - 03/10/20 07:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Russian people have been getting arrested for posting on social media for years now...idk how you haven’t heard of it from all your Russian contacts.
First 2 I found https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/01/young-russians-posting-memes-face-jail-for-extremism
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-45247879 No one should face jail time for poasting
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26528081 - 03/10/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 1
#26528394 - 03/11/20 01:15 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Russian people have been getting arrested for posting on social media for years now...idk how you haven’t heard of it from all your Russian contacts.
First 2 I found https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/01/young-russians-posting-memes-face-jail-for-extremism
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-45247879 No one should face jail time for poasting
No one got jail time.
"Criminal cases against three Barnaul residents were discontinued in January (2019). Andrei Shasherin and Maria Motuznaya had been charged under Article 148 Part 1 of the Criminal Code (insulting the feelings of believers) and Article 282 Part 1 of the Criminal Code (incitement of hatred) for publishing atheistic and xenophobic images; Daniil Markin had been charged with abasement of dignity of Christians under Article 282 Part 1 for publishing anti-Christian memes... their posts did not give sufficient grounds for prosecution."
Quote:
feldman114 said: https://meduza.io/en/feature/2015/02/09/there-s-no-such-thing-as-an-accidental-repost
This is a good one. Apparently people received jail time for “Likes” as well
Same thing
"In 2012, Vitold Filippov faced a criminal charge for promoting “fascism or Nazism” after liking a photo from the film American History X. The photo depicted the film’s lead character, a skinhead played by Edward Norton, who has a swastika tattoo on his chest... the court dropped the criminal charge"
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: qman] 1
#26528517 - 03/11/20 05:12 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Interfering in US elections for many years to come. 
Monkey see monkey do. They learned from the best in the business
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Enlil
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26528588 - 03/11/20 06:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Your links show a pretty bleak picture over in Russia. That's some oppressive shit. That these particular cases were dismissed doesn't make the oppression any less pervasive.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil] 1
#26528706 - 03/11/20 08:16 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Falcon, are you saying that if I find a few cases where jail time was given, it’ll change your mind about Putin’s authoritarian tendencies? Cause that would be super easy...I literally used the first 2 links google gave me lol. This shit happens very often...
Plus, even without jail time, being arrested, held for days and tried in court for LIKING a Facebook poast is beyond ridiculous.
Can you imagine the commotion if someone got arrested for a Facebook post in the US? Wouldn’t you be among the first to decry American tyranny?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil] 1
#26528913 - 03/11/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Your links show a pretty bleak picture over in Russia. That's some oppressive shit.
You consider not getting in trouble "some oppressive shit"?

Quote:
Enlil said: That these particular cases were dismissed doesn't make the oppression any less pervasive.
What oppression?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26528919 - 03/11/20 10:38 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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You consider having charges dismissed "not getting in trouble?" What about not having the police come after people at all for speech? Novel concept, komrade, but some places actually have made freedom of speech work pretty well.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil]
#26528937 - 03/11/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Just so we all know people ARE going to jail for this...
Here. 7 kids sentenced to YEARS in prison for social media poasts. https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-sentencing-set-network-sparks-social-media-outrage/30429323.html
Quote:
terms ranging from six to 18 years, lengths normally given to violent criminals.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26528938 - 03/11/20 10:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1555700378
They started doing it in Crimea, apparently
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26528946 - 03/11/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Falcon, are you saying that if I find a few cases where jail time was given, it’ll change your mind about Putin’s authoritarian tendencies?
It depends on what jail time was given for. Incarceration rates are higher in the US than in Russia, and sentences in the US are longer.
Quote:
feldman114 said: Cause that would be super easy...I literally used the first 2 links google gave me lol. This shit happens very often...
Sure, I'll take a look at your second attempt when I'm done with this.
Quote:
feldman114 said: Plus, even without jail time, being arrested, held for days and tried in court for LIKING a Facebook poast is beyond ridiculous.
Russia has some religious fanatics, but fortunately the law is above religion.
Quote:
feldman114 said: Can you imagine the commotion if someone got arrested for a Facebook post in the US? Wouldn’t you be among the first to decry American tyranny?
I've already talked about American tyranny:
3 Ways Facebook Is Increasingly Becoming An Arm Of The US Government
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26528954 - 03/11/20 10:58 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Just so we all know people ARE going to jail for this...
Here. 7 kids sentenced to YEARS in prison for social media poasts. https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-sentencing-set-network-sparks-social-media-outrage/30429323.html
Quote:
terms ranging from six to 18 years, lengths normally given to violent criminals.
They didn't go to jail "for social media posts". 
According to your own article, "The judge found the men guilty of planning terrorist attacks to destabilize the country during the 2018 presidential election and the soccer World Cup"
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26528961 - 03/11/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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How is the incarceration rate of the U.S. relevant to this discussion?
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26528967 - 03/11/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why would you quote the GOVT statement as if it’s part of the article?
All these Facebook likes and SM poasts are considered “acts of terorism”.
Let me paste that bit WITH the context necessary to understand it. You know, so not to mislead people?
Quote:
The judge found the men guilty of planning terrorist attacks to destabilize the country during the 2018 presidential election and the soccer World Cup, which Russia hosted the same year.
Authorities say they belong to a group called the Network, but the men all contend that such a group does not exist and that, although they share antifascist views, they mainly play outdoor war games together.
Human rights organizations and activists say the case was fabricated by the state to send a signal to members of society who express political views that run counter to those of the government.
Several of the convicted men said members of the Federal Security Service (FSB), the successor to the Soviet KGB, and other officers tortured them to extract a confession. The men said they were beaten and subjected to electric shock.
Also, I mean cooooome oooon. Look at them. They’re kids, not terrorists.
They were playing competitive Nerf-type shooter games and posting the videos. That’s why they got arrested - a video of them casually shit-talking Russian govt. while playing a game.
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Enlil
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26528969 - 03/11/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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That article says the case was fabricated.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26528970 - 03/11/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sure, I'd be happy to explain to you. Russia is trying to protect itself from foreign interference.
One of the bills prohibits publication of “socially important” false information, which “endangers life and well-being of citizens,” incites mass disturbance of order, disruption of infrastructure, and so on. Minor infringements would be left unpunished.
The second bill prohibits publication of material, which “insults” the state and its symbols in an “obscene” fashion. The legislation shields the constitution, state symbols and all the branches of the state’s authority from insults. That does NOT mean that the citizens would be penalized for speaking out against these; such criticism could still be made in “virtually any manner, except for blatantly insulting.”
So basically , Putin is trying to protect Russia from the kind of election interference you and qman say isn’t happening to us huh ?
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26528978 - 03/11/20 11:09 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Look, it’s 7 “terrorists”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 1
#26528991 - 03/11/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Why would you quote the GOVT statement as if it’s part of the article?
I didn't quote a GOVT statement, I quoted part of the article.
Quote:
feldman114 said: All these Facebook likes and SM poasts are considered “acts of terorism”.
No they're not. Planning terrorist attacks are considered acts of terrorism.
Quote:
feldman114 said: Let me paste that bit WITH the context necessary to understand it. You know, so not to mislead people?
Quote:
The judge found the men guilty of planning terrorist attacks to destabilize the country during the 2018 presidential election and the soccer World Cup, which Russia hosted the same year.
Authorities say they belong to a group called the Network, but the men all contend that such a group does not exist and that, although they share antifascist views, they mainly play outdoor war games together.
Aw, I'm sorry. I didn't know I'm only supposed to trust convicted terrorists.
It's like you telling me that anyone in a US prison who says they didn't do anything wrong should be released.
Quote:
feldman114 said: I mean cooooome oooon. Look at them. They’re kids, not terrorists.
They were playing competitive Nerf-type shooter games and posting the videos. That’s why they got arrested - a video of them casually shit-talking Russian govt. while playing a game.
If you and Enlil want to believe anything bad you hear about Russia, that's up to you and Enlil, and I guess it's pointless to argue.
But just look at how many things you already posted that turned out to be fake news.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26528995 - 03/11/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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What fake news did I poast?
The instances where you said there was no jail time are still instances of people being arrested for posting on social media.
Don’t trust convicted terrorists. Trust the human rights groups who corroborated their accounts and the physicians who determined that these kids had wounds consistent with the types of torture used.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 1
#26528997 - 03/11/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: What fake news did I poast?
You said "people received jail time for 'Likes'. That's clearly fake news.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529006 - 03/11/20 11:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Lol ok if you wanna be a stickler for terminology.
People were arrested and held in jail for FB likes. Better?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26529010 - 03/11/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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"Received jail time" and getting detained are not the same thing.
I don't think I'm being a stickler here, I think you got duped.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26529020 - 03/11/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Both have a chilling effect on speech, though.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil] 1
#26529027 - 03/11/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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But one of them isn't happening.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529039 - 03/11/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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So being arrested and held in jail for a FB poast is a-ok in your book?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26529041 - 03/11/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, but were the detained people put in jail?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529058 - 03/11/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Does it matter? If they were detained in the basement of a burger joint, is that any better?
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529060 - 03/11/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes, even after Putin reverses his own draconian law.
Prison is horrible. Jail sucks too though.
https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-signs-law-softening-punishment-for-memes/29681058.html
Quote:
Under the legislation, first-time offenders will face administrative instead of criminal prosecution, meaning they would be fined, do community service, or be jailed for up to 15 days.
And you just said you don’t agree with people being arrested for SM poasts. Why do you keep defending the govt that does it?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil]
#26529076 - 03/11/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Does it matter? If they were detained in the basement of a burger joint, is that any better?
Does honesty matter? It does in my opinion.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529079 - 03/11/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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So I did that on purpose? Lol cmon now...I said “received jail time” instead of “were arrested and taken to jail”. Most readers won’t even notice the difference if I go back and edit it.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26529080 - 03/11/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Yes, even after Putin reverses his own draconian law.
Prison is horrible. Jail sucks too though.
https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-signs-law-softening-punishment-for-memes/29681058.html
Quote:
Under the legislation, first-time offenders will face administrative instead of criminal prosecution, meaning they would be fined, do community service, or be jailed for up to 15 days.
And you just said you don’t agree with people being arrested for SM poasts. Why do you keep defending the govt that does it?
Now you point me to a known US Governmet propaganda site for news?
You keep reading your propaganda sites for news, I'll keep talking to my Russian acquaintances.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26529091 - 03/11/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Does it matter? If they were detained in the basement of a burger joint, is that any better?
Does honesty matter? It does in my opinion.
Then try it. Russia has a terrible record of speech suppression. Your semantics do nothing to change that.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529093 - 03/11/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don’t read that site. I googled the story and it was the first link.
What a weak excuse man, I expected better.
Here’s the second link from the search results, and another one your sig says is from a non-establishment source  https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-11/putin-rethinks-russian-crackdown-on-social-media-memes https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/world/europe/russia-domestic-violence.html
Edit: whooops, the nyt one is unrelated. Google needs work.
Here’s a replacement. It’s from TheMoscowTimes FFS https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/10/04/will-russia-stop-arresting-citizens-for-memes-a63090
Edited by feldman114 (03/11/20 12:38 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil] 1
#26529115 - 03/11/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Does honesty matter? It does in my opinion.
Then try it. Russia has a terrible record of speech suppression. Your semantics do nothing to change that.
Russia's record on free speech wasn't the argument. The argument was whether people get jailed for 'likes'. They don't.
Perhaps it's you who needs to try a little honesty.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529133 - 03/11/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, that's what you tried to turn the argument into. Allow me to quote this thread:
Quote:
feldman114 said: Russian people have been getting arrested for posting on social media for years now...idk how you haven’t heard of it from all your Russian contacts.
That's what it's about. It's about the oppression of citizens for talking shit on the internet. Even you seem to admit now that this is happening, yet you're claiming some kind of moral victory based on some silly issue about "likes," whatever the fuck a "like" is.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 3
#26529170 - 03/11/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Look, it’s 7 “terrorists”

The entire case is based on confessions the defendants were forced to agree to via intense torture as well as weapons planted by police and an extremely tenuous accusation that they were “planning to plan terrorist actions to overthrow the government of Russia.”
This article has a lot of the details, including direct evidence of torture: https://crimethinc.com/2018/03/26/why-the-torture-cases-in-russia-matter-how-the-tactics-that-the-russian-state-uses-against-anarchists-could-spread
Considering that we are talking about a “crime” without victims that involved no action and no plan, the sentences decreed by the court are shockingly draconian. Dmitry Pchelintsev and Ilya Shakursky, the supposed organizers of this fabricated “Network,” were sentenced to 18 years and 16 years in prison, respectively. The others have been sentenced as follows: Arman Sagynbaev 6 years, Andrei Chernov 14 years, Vasily Kuksov 9 years, Mikhail Kulkov 10 years, and Maxim Ivankin 13 years of imprisonment.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/10/russian-anti-fascist-group-network-jail
Quote:
A Russian court has issued harsh sentences to seven antifascist and anarchist activists in a controversial domestic terrorism case marred by claims that investigators tortured the defendants to elicit confessions.
[...]
Influential human rights groups have called the case fabricated and said the men may have been targeted for their political activism. Four of the men on trial said they had been tortured with beatings and electrocution during the investigation. In December, Memorial human rights centre, one of Russia’s oldest civil rights organisations, had called for the charges to be dropped.
“It is obvious that the prosecution of the antifascist activists in Penza, part of ongoing repressive measures against anarchists and antifascists that sharply increased in 2017–2018, is politically motivated,” the organisation wrote.
[...]
Oleg Orlov of Memorial said: “This is a monstrously harsh verdict, but we didn’t expect anything else.”
The prosecution accused the men of allegedly planning attacks, but gave little concrete detail about when or where they would take place. Investigators originally claimed that the men planned to target the 2018 World Cup or the presidential elections, but those charges were not reflected in the final criminal case.
The men had played airsoft together, an activity which the prosecution said was training for attacks. In 2019, the Network was named an extremist organisation, alongside groups like Islamic State.
“Even if these guys really did discuss a future revolution … crime starts when people make a particular plan, and they were not accused of making any certain plan,” said Alexander Verkhovsky, the director of Moscow’s Sova centre, which monitors extremism and the government’s countermeasures in Russia.
Four of the defendants said that they had been tortured during the investigation, accusing members of the Federal Security Service (FSB) of resorting to beatings and the use of electrocution to garner confessions.
Dmitry Pchelintsev, 27, an antifascist activist from Penza, was sentenced to 18 years in prison for allegedly creating the Network. He and his co-defendants have denied the group ever existed.
In testimony to his lawyer, Pchelintsev said that he admitted to planning terrorist attacks after being detained and tortured with electricity by security officers. He described clenching his teeth from the pain and his mouth being “full of blood”.
“They started to take off my underwear, I was lying facedown, they tried to connect the wires to my genitals,” he said in remarks published by MediaZona. “I started to scream and beg them to stop torturing me. They started saying: ‘You are the leader.’ To stop the torture, I said: ‘I am the leader.’”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26529202 - 03/11/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: I don’t read that site. I googled the story and it was the first link.
What a weak excuse man, I expected better.
Propaganda is a weak excuse? It's now ok to use? 
Quote:
feldman114 said: Here’s the second link from the search results, and another one your sig says is from a non-establishment source  https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-11/putin-rethinks-russian-crackdown-on-social-media-memes https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/world/europe/russia-domestic-violence.html
Edit: whooops, the nyt one is unrelated. Google needs work.
Bloomberg is now a pay site. If you have a subscription, can you copy/paste the article?
Quote:
feldman114 said: Here’s a replacement. It’s from TheMoscowTimes FFS https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/10/04/will-russia-stop-arresting-citizens-for-memes-a63090
That was just an opinion piece asking whether Putin's softening the extremism law is good enough.
There's always a fine balance between how far you let people go once you realize they're plotting to overthrow the Government.
I guess you like how they did things in Ukraine, where people in Kiev overthrew the elected President with a President chosen by the United States and then called it 'democracy'?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil]
#26529212 - 03/11/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The argument was whether people get jailed for 'likes'. They don't.
Quote:
Enlil said: No, that's what you tried to turn the argument into. Allow me to quote this thread:
Quote:
feldman114 said: Russian people have been getting arrested for posting on social media for years now...idk how you haven’t heard of it from all your Russian contacts.
That's what it's about. It's about the oppression of citizens for talking shit on the internet. Even you seem to admit now that this is happening, yet you're claiming some kind of moral victory based on some silly issue about "likes," whatever the fuck a "like" is.
People are not getting jailed for "likes". That's a fact, not a moral victory.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529218 - 03/11/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Dude, it’s not “asking” if it’s good enough. It’s asking if it’s real and saying the best case scenario is a “light” 15-day sentence...for likes and memes. Here’s the actual tag line of the MOSCOW TIMES article
Quote:
After Putin proposes softening an extremism law, skeptics say the liberalization is a facade.
Here’s another MOSCOW TIMES article detailing the jailing AND imprisonment of an 18-year-old girl , among 5 other young Russians for posting to a chat room. (she’s on house arrest now, but before the media attention she did spend time in prison). https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/08/15/a-russian-teenagers-chat-group-became-fsb-snare-a62529
I can literally do this all day, that’s how many times this happened
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26529220 - 03/11/20 01:59 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Sure they were jailed. Like anyone who gets booked.
jail /jāl/ Learn to pronounce verb past tense: jailed; past participle: jailed put (someone) in jail.
If you’re gonna argue semantics, get it right. I was wrong to say “spent time in jail” cause that implies a prison sentence. But they were definitely jailed
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26529226 - 03/11/20 02:06 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: The entire case is based on confessions the defendants were forced to agree to via intense torture as well as weapons planted by police and an extremely tenuous accusation that they were “planning to plan terrorist actions to overthrow the government of Russia.”
...according to the convicted themselves.
I'll see if I can get a Russian friend of mine to find something in Russian on this. I'm fairly certain there's more than what the anarchists claim.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529233 - 03/11/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Like I said...twice...don’t listen to the “anarchists”. Listen to Russia’s own human rights groups and the Russian physicians who concluded that the kids had wounds consistent with electrocution.
But ask your buddies too. This is one topic that most Putin-leaning Russians can’t justify either. These laws, the restriction of free speech, punishment of young kids, false imprisonments...it’s all very familiar to the Russian people.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26529236 - 03/11/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Dude, it’s not “asking” if it’s good enough. It’s asking if it’s real and saying the best case scenario is a “light” 15-day sentence...for likes and memes. Here’s the actual tag line of the MOSCOW TIMES article
Quote:
After Putin proposes softening an extremism law, skeptics say the liberalization is a facade.
Right. And you're a skeptic.
Quote:
feldman114 said: Here’s another MOSCOW TIMES article detailing the jailing AND imprisonment of an 18-year-old girl , among 5 other young Russians for posting to a chat room. (she’s on house arrest now, but before the media attention she did spend time in prison). https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/08/15/a-russian-teenagers-chat-group-became-fsb-snare-a62529
I can literally do this all day, that’s how many times this happened
Another case of people being arrested for plotting terrorist acts, not for chatting in a chat room. Again, you should at least be honest about what the arrest was for.
Should the Government wait until after a crime before stepping in? That's a question that varies by country.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26529244 - 03/11/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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By the way, we arrest suspected terrorists as well.
Women In NYC Arrested As Part Of Alleged Terror Plot
And did you hear about how we treated Maria Butina to get a confession?
Now it's time for Enlil to come in and say who cares what happens in the US, this is about Russia bashing!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26529251 - 03/11/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It has absolutely zero bearing on the discussion. If you want to discuss protection of speech in the U.S., I'll be glad to engage in that discussion. That isn't this discussion, however.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Enlil]
#26529263 - 03/11/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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That woman was contacted by undercover agents before the bust, no? She wasn’t picked up based on a meme or a like, right? Sorry, can’t watch videos RN. Work
And Butina was tortured? Ha! Cause tight handcuffs are the equivalent of electroshocking? You gotta be kidding me....
Quote:
Russia’s U.S. embassy said in a statement on Sunday that Butina had been transferred from a prison in Washington to one in Virginia on Friday without notice or explanation and that her personal belongings had also been confiscated.
She had been subjected to a strip search and shackled during the transfer, it alleged, before being held in a cell for 12 hours without food and with the lights on. She now faced a solitary confinement regime, it said.
“Her situation is getting worse. It’s obvious that attempts are being made to ‘break’ Maria using additional humiliation and psychological pressure,” the embassy said.
From your article. Oh no, she was moved from one prison to another.  Lights on for 12 hours - oh the humanity.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26529415 - 03/11/20 04:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: The entire case is based on confessions the defendants were forced to agree to via intense torture as well as weapons planted by police and an extremely tenuous accusation that they were “planning to plan terrorist actions to overthrow the government of Russia.”
...according to the convicted themselves.
I'll see if I can get a Russian friend of mine to find something in Russian on this. I'm fairly certain there's more than what the anarchists claim.
The claim is they are fraudulently convicted political prisoners. Using the conviction to discount this is circular reasoning - why don't you engage with the actual evidence?
There's hard evidence of torture that was documented by civil rights groups. The Public Monitoring Commission in St. Petersburg visited them while still in prison and confirmed that they had marks from several kinds of torture. Human Rights organizations like Memorial and Amnesty International are speaking out.
 Wounds inflicted on Ilya Kapustin by torture with electrical shock.
 Visual survey report on the torture that the FSB inflicted on arrestee Igor Shishkin, from the Public Monitoring Commission findings.
What evidence did the FSB present to implicate these people as terrorists?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26529580 - 03/11/20 06:00 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think we need to step back and rehash what each of us is arguing, because I don't think we're being very clear.
- I'm arguing that people in Russia don't get jail time just for liking something on Facebook - I'm arguing that people in Russia don't get jail time for social media posts unless they intentionally incite hatred or terrorism - I'm arguing that it is very uncommon for Russian police to use torture or to falsify evidence (and if they do it's against Russian law) - I'm arguing that Putin's involvement in these cases was little more than to soften existing laws
- I'm NOT arguing that no one was ever detained for liking something on Facebook - I'm NOT arguing that no one was ever jailed for inciting hatred or extremist activity - I'm NOT arguing that torture has never been used and evidence has never been falsified
To answer your question about evidence, the prosection had two documents outlining the Network’s goals and org structure, and the minutes of an interregional meeting.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26529836 - 03/11/20 08:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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The issue is very clear: when it comes to any criticism of the Russian State, you are there to misdirect, deny, and obscure. Right now you're being hit from all angles by people tired of this. Probably initially spurred on by your refusal to acknowledge Putins refusal to relinquish power.
I picked up on the anarchist political prisoners example when I saw you denounce them as terrorists - uncritically taking the State line - because we've discussed this issue and it's one that I take a personal interest in, since it's political repression of an ideology I openly hold.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: To answer your question about evidence, the prosection had two documents outlining the Network’s goals and org structure, and the minutes of an interregional meeting.
Don't forget that the FSB is the successor of the KGB - an organization not above torture, false confessions, fabricated trials - and definitely not one who's claims we should accept at face value. Here, let's take a more in-depth look at the State evidence:
Quote:
‘Participants’ in this organisation were not charged with the commission of any actions, nor with having developed specific plans, but only with indefinite intentions, with having ‘planned’ something criminal ‘in a place and at a time that have not been established, in circumstances that have not been established by the investigation, jointly with persons who have not been identified, guided by the ideology of anarchism,’
It is claimed that Network had a charter and held congresses. The investigators gave the title ‘congresses’ to various open meetings, including ordinary social gatherings at which one or other of those convicted was present or accidentally met with another (after all, most of the members of Network did not even know each other). As experts have shown, the ‘charter’ of the group of anarchists (a thing which would in itself be amusing!) appeared on a computer after it had been seized, when the owner was already held on remand, and was then edited by unidentified persons.
No fingerprints or other biological samples of the defendants were found anywhere on a meagre store of arms, including on the weapons and ammunition, that allegedly were discovered. Investigators, for their part, did not even try to establish the circumstances in which the weapons had been acquired. Pressure was applied not only to the defendants, but also to witnesses, many of whom complained about this and rejected testimony they had at first given. This weak ‘evidential base’ was strengthened by the testimony of ‘secret witnesses.’
Source
Why we believe the charges related to the banned Network organisation to be fabricated and politically motivated
- There is much testimony that all the defendants and at least four witnesses in the Penza case were subjected to torture. The use of torture in the work of the investigators was a general rule and one of the main instruments used during the investigation in the criminal case. The torture of the St. Petersburg defendants Viktor Filinkov, Yuly Boyarshinov, and Igor Shishkin has also been documented by the Public Oversight Commission. The Network case, both in Penza and St. Petersburg, has been wholly built on the testimony obtained under torture. All the ‘self-incriminatory statements’ obtained by this means are inadmissible in court and cannot be used as evidence.
- This case is an example of reality being fitted to the conspiracy theories of operational and investigative officers from the Penza FSB. The description of training, division of responsibilities and the structure of Network, set out at the trials in Penza and St. Petersburg, was much more like information about a group of strike ball players. The version according to which a small group of young people with left-wing views, living in Penza, seriously decided to violently overthrow the current political regime in Russia is extremely unrealistic.
- Evidence gathered by the investigation, presented at the trial that began on 14 May 2019 in the Volga District Military Court, is extremely unconvincing and consists of classified testimonies of witnesses who are either hostile to the defendants or who wish to avoid prison, two planted pistols, one improvised explosive device, doctored recordings of telephone conversations and documents of the ‘terrorist group,’ very crudely fabricated from the correspondence of young women of anarchist persuasion.
- The defendants are in fact not accused of having committed any real actions or attempts to commit such actions. All the offences they allegedly were going to commit, even according to the investigators, are concerned with an indeterminate, distant future. Moreover, initially the FSB asserted that the participants in Network had prepared to carry out acts of terrorism during the FIFA World Cup in the summer of 2018. However, the final charges contained no mention of this. Even those defendants who pleaded guilty stated that the purpose of the training and joint activities in Network was nothing other than self-defence in case of attack by radical nationalists during possible disturbances, and not preparation to seize some buildings or other, or the commission of terrorist acts.
- Maksim Ivankin and Mikhail Kulkov have also been charged with drug trafficking. They pleaded guilty to these crimes in court. Yet, this cannot prevent them being recognised as political prisoners on groundless charges of terrorism. At the same time, we believe that these episodes must also be objectively investigated because of the violation of Ivankin’s and Kulkov’s rights during the preliminary investigation. There is a strong likelihood that the charges against Chernov under Article 228.1 of the Russian Criminal Code were fabricated given that he was charged almost a year after his detention and the investigatory authorities gained access to the smart phone found on him at the time of arrest. Neither his fingerprints nor other biological traces were found on the packets containing drugs.
- It is obvious that the prosecution of the antifascist activists in Penza, part of on-going repressive measures against anarchists and anti-fascists that sharply increased in 2017–2018, is politically motivated. The authorities cultivate the image of anarchists as people who are related to terrorism and seek to destabilise society and the political system. Detained anarchists are, moreover, routinely and blatantly tortured. At the same time, all extra-systemic, informal self-organisation in society, especially of young people, is closed down.
So are you still convinced that these people are terrorists?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26529886 - 03/11/20 08:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: The issue is very clear: when it comes to any criticism of the Russian State, you are there to misdirect, deny, and obscure.
No, I'm trying to prevent others from doing so. I just clarified my position because other are trying to misrepresent it.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Right now you're being hit from all angles by people tired of this. Probably initially spurred on by your refusal to acknowledge Putins refusal to relinquish power.
Putin doesn't have a choice but to relinquish power if he is voted out. Is it your belief that a majority of Russians don't like him? Because if so, I can point you to many public opinion polls showing you're very wrong. Can you point to any showing Putin is not popular among the general population?
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shivas.wisdom said: we've discussed this issue and it's one that I take a personal interest in, since it's political repression of an ideology I openly hold.
(body deleted for brevity)
So are you still convinced that these people are terrorists?
I have no idea if they are terrorists, and I never said they were. What I said was a "judge found the men guilty of planning terrorist attacks to destabilize the country during the 2018 presidential election and the soccer World Cup" and that they were "convicted terrorists". I also said "I'm NOT arguing that torture has never been used and evidence has never been falsified".
My point wasn't to say if they are innocent or guilty (I don't know), my point was to say they weren't put in jail just for posting to social media, they were put in jail because they were found guilty of planning terrorist attacks (whether justified or not).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seriously_trippin
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26530140 - 03/12/20 12:31 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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How can the Russian people be so egotistical to vote for all the eligible voters from now until 2036? Or is it that Putin's a tyrant much like Castro?
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Seriously_trippin]
#26530337 - 03/12/20 06:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Name 1 dictator who wasn’t “popular with the general population”.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Seriously_trippin] 1
#26530558 - 03/12/20 09:36 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: How can the Russian people be so egotistical to vote for all the eligible voters from now until 2036? Or is it that Putin's a tyrant much like Castro?
You throw any legit competition in jail on trumped up charges
--------------------
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26530923 - 03/12/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: No, I'm trying to prevent others from doing so. I just clarified my position because other are trying to misrepresent it.
I have no idea if they are terrorists, and I never said they were. What I said was a "judge found the men guilty of planning terrorist attacks to destabilize the country during the 2018 presidential election and the soccer World Cup" and that they were "convicted terrorists". I also said "I'm NOT arguing that torture has never been used and evidence has never been falsified".
My point wasn't to say if they are innocent or guilty (I don't know), my point was to say they weren't put in jail just for posting to social media, they were put in jail because they were found guilty of planning terrorist attacks (whether justified or not).
See now this is an example of misdirection, denial, and obscuring.
Your argument here appears to be that since these people weren't specifically put in jail just for posting on social media in this case it's a big... nothing burger.
Except tracing back the thread of discussion, we went from 'Russian law once again being changed to allow Putin to stay in power' to a discussion on 'political repression in Russia', which finally arrived at the specific question 'if anyone was put in jail just for posting to social media'.
I don't know if feldman114 just framed the argument badly or if you directed the discussion there, but to latch onto that single point as if proving the specific claim wrong has any bearing on the general discussion is intellectually dishonest. By all means, correct the mistake - but that doesn't give you license to ignore the greater argument.
In the case of the anarchist political prisoners, it doesn't matter that posting on social media wasn't the sole justification for the case - the torture, false evidence, vague charges, political targeting, and draconian sentences spell out a strong argument for political repression in Russia. You don't get to shrug all of that off on some technicality.
The Network terrorism case is an excellent example of political repression in Russia. Anarchists, due to the very nature of the ideology, experience some levels of repression everywhere - Russian police aren't the only ones to torture arrested people, and the Russian State isn't the only one to fabricate a terrorism case - but Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression.
Can you acknowledge this?
For more background on repression throughout Europe during this period, read (pdf link) “On Repression Patterns in Europe,” which offers a critical overview of repression and solidarity in six countries.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26531147 - 03/12/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: No, I'm trying to prevent others from doing so. I just clarified my position because other are trying to misrepresent it.
I have no idea if they are terrorists, and I never said they were. What I said was a "judge found the men guilty of planning terrorist attacks to destabilize the country during the 2018 presidential election and the soccer World Cup" and that they were "convicted terrorists". I also said "I'm NOT arguing that torture has never been used and evidence has never been falsified".
My point wasn't to say if they are innocent or guilty (I don't know), my point was to say they weren't put in jail just for posting to social media, they were put in jail because they were found guilty of planning terrorist attacks (whether justified or not).
See now this is an example of misdirection, denial, and obscuring.
Your argument here appears to be that since these people weren't specifically put in jail just for posting on social media in this case it's a big... nothing burger.
No, that's not my argument. My argument is exactly what I said it was - people aren't being put in jail just for posting to social media.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Except tracing back the thread of discussion, we went from 'Russian law once again being changed to allow Putin to stay in power' to a discussion on 'political repression in Russia', which finally arrived at the specific question 'if anyone was put in jail just for posting to social media'.
I don't know if feldman114 just framed the argument badly or if you directed the discussion there, but to latch onto that single point as if proving the specific claim wrong has any bearing on the general discussion is intellectually dishonest.
Feldman said "Apparently people received jail time for 'Likes' as well". That was FACTUALLY dishonest. So I corrected him. If you think correcting factual mistakes is intellectual dishonesty, we'll have to disagree.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: By all means, correct the mistake - but that doesn't give you license to ignore the greater argument.
In the case of the anarchist political prisoners, it doesn't matter that posting on social media wasn't the sole justification for the case - the torture, false evidence, vague charges, political targeting, and draconian sentences spell out a strong argument for political repression in Russia. You don't get to shrug all of that off on some technicality.
The Network terrorism case is an excellent example of political repression in Russia. Anarchists, due to the very nature of the ideology, experience some levels of repression everywhere - Russian police aren't the only ones to torture arrested people
You're exactly right - you can find plenty of examples of torture by police in other countries such as the United States.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: ...and the Russian State isn't the only one to fabricate a terrorism case
You're exactly right - you can find plenty of examples of fabricating terrorism in other countries such as the United States.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: ...but Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression.
Can you acknowledge this?
I've already acknowledged that it happens everywhere, but torture and fabrication of evidence are illegal in Russia, just as they are here in the US and many other countries that use them anyway. Every country has a few bad actors.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: For more background on repression throughout Europe during this period, read (pdf link) “On Repression Patterns in Europe,” which offers a critical overview of repression and solidarity in six countries.
I won't disagree with you at all about this.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26531314 - 03/12/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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The American cops who torture people get caught. The Russian cops are doing their job, which is why they’re never held accountable.
@shiva I see what you mean, but you should also understand that this back-and-forth about Russia is an ongoing thing. If I had any hope left that logic or facts can change what Fal thinks (ON THIS TOPIC) I’d keep the original discussion going. Instead, I just pick the biggest fallacy in each of his responses and point it out, as succinctly as possible...See, I have this theory that Fal’s love for Russia is actually his hate for the U.S. in disguise. And I figure enough landed jabs can bring the mental wall down faster than an all-out combo assault. Fuck I’m high. Hope that made sense. Sorry.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26531368 - 03/12/20 04:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: The American cops who torture people get caught. The Russian cops are doing their job, which is why they’re never held accountable.
That's not true.
Russian Cops Jailed for Torturing Suspects "A court in St. Petersburg has sentenced two police officers to four years behind bars for torturing suspects"
Quote:
feldman114 said: @shiva I see what you mean, but you should also understand that this back-and-forth about Russia is an ongoing thing. If I had any hope left that logic or facts can change what Fal thinks (ON THIS TOPIC) I’d keep the original discussion going.
See above.
Quote:
feldman114 said: I have this theory that Fal’s love for Russia is actually his hate for the U.S. in disguise.
I have no love of Russia. I have a strong hate of make believe.
If you like, I'll play make believe with you in the Kindeegarten Forum. Political Discussion isn't the right place.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26531378 - 03/12/20 04:39 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Every country has a few bad actors.
Quote:
A shocking video of the torture of a prisoner forced the government to acknowledge the use of torture in Russian prisons.
Torture and Cruel and Degrading Treatment
In July, Novaya Gazeta published a leaked video of penitentiary staff in Yaroslavl viciously beating a prisoner. Responding to public indignation, Russia’s criminal investigation agency arrested 15 suspects by November. One suspect testified that staff recorded the video to demonstrate that they had carried out an order by senior officials to punish the prisoner.
The swift, effective investigation was unprecedented in Russia, where authorities typically dismiss prisoners’ complaints of ill-treatment.
In August, Meduza, an independent online media outlet, published data on more than 50 other publicly reported torture cases in 2018. The alleged perpetrators included police, investigators, security agents, and penitentiary officials. Authorities opened only a few criminal investigations into the allegations, and only one case advanced to trial.
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/russia
Some countries more have than a few .
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2] 1
#26531382 - 03/12/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Some countries more have than a few .
That's for sure:
Torture in US Prisons
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26531623 - 03/12/20 07:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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They don’t limit their torture to prisoners . I should be outraged by the fact that they torture Jehovas Witnesses , rather than slightly amused . I’m a terrible person .
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Russian law enforcement has been rocked by several torture scandals in recent years, with reported victims including LGBT people in Chechnya, Jehovah's Witnesses and prisoners. Recent polling has said that one in 10 Russians have been subjected to what they perceived to be torture by law enforcement officials.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/10/russias-torture-complaints-doubled-since-2018-rights-official-says-a66353
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2]
#26531907 - 03/12/20 11:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Psilynut2 said: They don’t limit their torture to prisoners .
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/10/russias-torture-complaints-doubled-since-2018-rights-official-says-a66353
Your article starts out saying "Complaints of torture in Russia’s penal system have doubled over the past year, the country’s top human rights official has said."
Anyway, it's still not allowed. Chechnya has always been a problem area for Putin if you follow recent Russian history.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26532263 - 03/13/20 08:18 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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feldman114 said: The American cops who torture people get caught. The Russian cops are doing their job, which is why they’re never held accountable.
That's not true.
Russian Cops Jailed for Torturing Suspects "A court in St. Petersburg has sentenced two police officers to four years behind bars for torturing suspects"
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feldman114 said: @shiva I see what you mean, but you should also understand that this back-and-forth about Russia is an ongoing thing. If I had any hope left that logic or facts can change what Fal thinks (ON THIS TOPIC) I’d keep the original discussion going.
See above.
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feldman114 said: I have this theory that Fal’s love for Russia is actually his hate for the U.S. in disguise.
I have no love of Russia. I have a strong hate of make believe.
If you like, I'll play make believe with you in the Kindeegarten Forum. Political Discussion isn't the right place.
You’re the only one trying to mislead here, man.
For example, the article you posted seems to refer to ex-officers (prison guards) torturing prisoners.
Quote:
Russia’s penitentiary system was rocked by a scandal last year after bodycam footage showed guards violently beating prisoners in a notorious prison outside Moscow.
It’s a bit confusing and, for some reason, there are no well-known news sources reporting on this story. I read it twice, and it seems 6 guards were pouring boiling water on prisoners and putting cigarettes out in their nostrils, but only 2 weee jailed and they both received the min. sentence.
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A third ex-police officer was found guilty of stealing a bodycam but released after serving time in pre-trial detention. A fourth ex-officer received a 3.5-year suspended sentence for falsifying evidence.
Two others were acquitted.
But, hey, it’s not like there’s a shortage of these stories. One Russian human rights group estimates that 1/10 Russians will be subjected to some form of torture by police.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-police-torture-abuse-igor-kalyapin-ngo-interview-a8976346.html
Why don’t you believe Russian human rights groups?
Quote:
Kalyapin says the Committee for the Prevention of Torture was born out of a simple if terrifying fact: Russian authorities were turning a blind eye to torture. Not a single officer was being brought to justice, he tells The Independent. Hundreds of official complaints were dismissed by prosecutors in the same way.
See, I’m not the only one who knows that Russian cops get away with torture on a daily basis.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26532277 - 03/13/20 08:25 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Find one example of something like this happening anywhere else in the civilized world:
Quote:
Twenty-one-year-old Artyom Ponomarchuk had been arrested by police in the Black Sea resort town of Anapa. The charge he faced was serious enough – assault – but what came next was inexplicable. First, the young man was deprived of air using a gas mask. Then officers applied electroshocks to his rear. And then he was raped with a truncheon so deep that his intestines severed.
Despite a case of evidence compiled against them, the police officers responsible have not been charged, and continue to work. And in a grotesque parallel development, prosecutors continue to push charges against Ponomarchuk.
Kalyapin tells The Independent that law enforcement is, if anything, becoming more brazen in its behaviour. Before, he says, police tried not to leave obvious marks; now they aren’t as careful.
(All from the above article)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 2
#26532815 - 03/13/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: You’re the only one trying to mislead here, man.
For example, the article you posted seems to refer to ex-officers (prison guards) torturing prisoners.
Quote:
Russia’s penitentiary system was rocked by a scandal last year after bodycam footage showed guards violently beating prisoners in a notorious prison outside Moscow.
It’s a bit confusing and, for some reason, there are no well-known news sources reporting on this story. I read it twice, and it seems 6 guards were pouring boiling water on prisoners and putting cigarettes out in their nostrils, but only 2 weee jailed and they both received the min. sentence.
Quote:
A third ex-police officer was found guilty of stealing a bodycam but released after serving time in pre-trial detention. A fourth ex-officer received a 3.5-year suspended sentence for falsifying evidence.
Two others were acquitted.
What did I misleading about? 
Quote:
feldman114 said: But, hey, it’s not like there’s a shortage of these stories. One Russian human rights group estimates that 1/10 Russians will be subjected to some form of torture by police.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-police-torture-abuse-igor-kalyapin-ngo-interview-a8976346.html
Why don’t you believe Russian human rights groups?
Who said I don't believe them? What I said was this behavior is illegal, and police can (and do) get in trouble for this. Do they always get in trouble? Of course not, just like they don't always get in trouble in other countries.
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feldman114 said: See, I’m not the only one who knows that Russian cops get away with torture on a daily basis.
I'm not disagreeing, but this isn't unique to Russia. Have you never heard about Americans complaining of police abuse?
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feldman114 said: Find one example of something like this happening anywhere else in the civilized world:
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Twenty-one-year-old Artyom Ponomarchuk had been arrested by police in the Black Sea resort town of Anapa. The charge he faced was serious enough – assault – but what came next was inexplicable. First, the young man was deprived of air using a gas mask. Then officers applied electroshocks to his rear. And then he was raped with a truncheon so deep that his intestines severed.
Despite a case of evidence compiled against them, the police officers responsible have not been charged, and continue to work. And in a grotesque parallel development, prosecutors continue to push charges against Ponomarchuk.
Kalyapin tells The Independent that law enforcement is, if anything, becoming more brazen in its behaviour. Before, he says, police tried not to leave obvious marks; now they aren’t as careful.
(All from the above article)
The number of abuse cases in the US is ridiculously high, including people getting killed in detention/prison. I don't know why you think this is exclusive to Russia.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26532856 - 03/13/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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You’re misleading people who don’t have time to read your link. The article is about EX-cops (prison guards). Just read what I quoted mang...it’s from your article. Here it is again;
Quote:
Russia’s penitentiary system was rocked by a scandal last year after bodycam footage showed guards violently beating prisoners in a notorious prison outside Moscow.
And if you believe the Russian human right group, why are you saying the opposite of what they determined (in collaboration with other Russian human rights organizations BTW)?
Their research suggest 1 in 10 Russians have been subjected to torture by the police. Electrocution, boiling water, rape, etc. Are you actually suggesting anything of this scale happens in the US?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26533702 - 03/13/20 11:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: You’re misleading people who don’t have time to read your link. The article is about EX-cops (prison guards). Just read what I quoted mang...it’s from your article. Here it is again;
Quote:
Russia’s penitentiary system was rocked by a scandal last year after bodycam footage showed guards violently beating prisoners in a notorious prison outside Moscow.
I still don't know what I said that was misleading. In fact, your quote further proves what I've been saying - that this type of behavior is unacceptable, and that's why this was a 'scandal'.
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feldman114 said: And if you believe the Russian human right group, why are you saying the opposite of what they determined (in collaboration with other Russian human rights organizations BTW)?
I still don't understand. What did I say that is opposite of what they determined?
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feldman114 said: Their research suggest 1 in 10 Russians have been subjected to torture by the police. Electrocution, boiling water, rape, etc.
"Electrocution, boiling water, rape, etc."?
Have you read the report? Well over 1/2 of the respondents who said they were tortured considered the following torture:
Threats Psychological pressure Hunger Cold Night interrogations Rudeness Insults
And you laughed ("Ha!") when I said Maria Butina was tortured to get a confession, but that's the same kind of torture we're talking about here.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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relic
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26534586 - 03/14/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I have no idea if they are terrorists, and I never said they were.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I didn't know I'm only supposed to trust convicted terrorists.
?
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relic
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 1
#26534620 - 03/14/20 11:46 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Find one example of something like this happening anywhere else in the civilized world:
Quote:
Twenty-one-year-old Artyom Ponomarchuk had been arrested by police in the Black Sea resort town of Anapa. The charge he faced was serious enough – assault – but what came next was inexplicable. First, the young man was deprived of air using a gas mask. Then officers applied electroshocks to his rear. And then he was raped with a truncheon so deep that his intestines severed.
Despite a case of evidence compiled against them, the police officers responsible have not been charged, and continue to work. And in a grotesque parallel development, prosecutors continue to push charges against Ponomarchuk.
Kalyapin tells The Independent that law enforcement is, if anything, becoming more brazen in its behaviour. Before, he says, police tried not to leave obvious marks; now they aren’t as careful.
(All from the above article)
Careful with those absolutes, man. (Challenging someone to find even one similar case "anywhere else in the civilized world" as if even one example couldnt be found)
Off the top of my head I remember a case sometime in the late 90's (edit, 1997) where a NYC cop raped a detained man's asshole with a broken broomstick. The officer caught a pretty long prison term IIRC so it's not just a case of an inmate's accusation.
Edited by relic (03/14/20 11:50 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: relic] 1
#26534782 - 03/14/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
relic said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I have no idea if they are terrorists, and I never said they were.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I didn't know I'm only supposed to trust convicted terrorists.
?
Three things:
1. They are indeed convicted terrorists. 2. I didn't say I think they committed the terrorist acts. I made it very clear that I don't know. 3. I asked if I'm "only" supposed to look at their side, because I haven't seen the other side.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26547536 - 03/20/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said: The Network terrorism case is an excellent example of political repression in Russia. Anarchists, due to the very nature of the ideology, experience some levels of repression everywhere - Russian police aren't the only ones to torture arrested people
You're exactly right - you can find plenty of examples of torture by police in other countries such as the United States.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: ...and the Russian State isn't the only one to fabricate a terrorism case
You're exactly right - you can find plenty of examples of fabricating terrorism in other countries such as the United States.
Yes I know- that's why I state as much in the quoted post. I'm not sure why you felt a thirty year old story about police torture in the USA was pertinent to the discussion. Can you explain why?
Returning to the discussion...
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said: ...but Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression.
Can you acknowledge this?
I've already acknowledged that it happens everywhere, but torture and fabrication of evidence are illegal in Russia, just as they are here in the US and many other countries that use them anyway. Every country has a few bad actors.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: For more background on repression throughout Europe during this period, read (pdf link) “On Repression Patterns in Europe,” which offers a critical overview of repression and solidarity in six countries.
I won't disagree with you at all about this.
I think this it you claim to have acknowledged is different than what I asked, because "I've already acknowledged that [Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression] happens everywhere" doesn't really seem to make sense.
And then immediately softening that unnecessarily convoluted acknowledgment by pointing out that torture is technically illegal in Russia, so even if it did happen it's merely an aberration - as if legality has ever had an impact on the methods the FSB (the acronym formerly known as the KGB) uses in suppressing dissent.
Either provide a comparable case of political repression directed against anarchists by another country - preferably multiple countries to help establish your everywhere claim - or else directly acknowledge that Russia is the only country engaging in this method of political repression.
--------------------
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26547610 - 03/20/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I'm not sure why you felt a thirty year old story about police torture in the USA was pertinent to the discussion. Can you explain why?
To show that torture happens even in places where it's not allowed.
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shivas.wisdom said: Returning to the discussion...
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: ...but Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression.
Can you acknowledge this?
I've already acknowledged that it happens everywhere, but torture and fabrication of evidence are illegal in Russia, just as they are here in the US and many other countries that use them anyway. Every country has a few bad actors.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: For more background on repression throughout Europe during this period, read (pdf link) “On Repression Patterns in Europe,” which offers a critical overview of repression and solidarity in six countries.
I won't disagree with you at all about this.
I think this it you claim to have acknowledged is different than what I asked, because "I've already acknowledged that [Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression] happens everywhere" doesn't really seem to make sense.
And then immediately softening that unnecessarily convoluted acknowledgment by pointing out that torture is technically illegal in Russia, so even if it did happen it's merely an aberration - as if legality has ever had an impact on the methods the FSB (the acronym formerly known as the KGB) uses in suppressing dissent.
Either provide a comparable case of political repression directed against anarchists by another country - preferably multiple countries to help establish your everywhere claim - or else directly acknowledge that Russia is the only country engaging in this method of political repression.
Your own example talked about torture in Poland.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26547738 - 03/20/20 10:25 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It’s so telling that you care more about the reputation of whatever you are defending than making moral judgements, that you end up having to defend whatever behaviors they are being criticized for.
Russia tortures but so does everyone else. 🤦♂️
--------------------
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Seriously_trippin
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: koods]
#26547890 - 03/21/20 12:34 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It always brakes me wonder why he has an undying boner for russia.
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Seriously_trippin]
#26547903 - 03/21/20 12:43 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'll tell you for maybe the 50th time: I couldn't give two shits about Russia. I care about the facts and truth, unlike koods.
If other countries use torture, that doesn't mean I condone it. I don't know how you guys jumped to these conclusions, but I guess we all know koods is King of Make Believe.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26547912 - 03/21/20 12:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I'll tell you for maybe the 50th time: I couldn't give two shits about Russia.
This is a completely laughable claim and nobody reading this who has any familiarity with your posts will believe it. It’s gaslighting.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: koods]
#26547917 - 03/21/20 12:52 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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When have I ever made anything up about Russia?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26547922 - 03/21/20 12:55 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Never said you did.
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Seriously_trippin
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26549132 - 03/21/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I'll tell you for maybe the 50th time: I couldn't give two shits about Russia. I care about the facts and truth, unlike koods.
If other countries use torture, that doesn't mean I condone it. I don't know how you guys jumped to these conclusions, but I guess we all know koods is King of Make Believe.
Don't get me wrong I do love debating you and bouncing off ideas(you actually respond to questions most of the time and dont get super pissy often), even friends sort of but it's just always seemed odd to me that you were adamant that when you went on your trip you said everyone there loved Putin and there was no possibility of any of them saying they loved being annexed because people who speak out about it get destroyed by the Russian government. Also you were very pro Russia being in the G7.
You portray Russian state television as honest and reliable source of news. You often deny any Russian involment in the 2016 elections by the 20 indicted Russians saying they had nothing on him and then it comes to Putin essentially becoming a life long dictator(even if he is popular) and you seem very on board with that.
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Seriously_trippin] 2
#26549209 - 03/21/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: Don't get me wrong I do love debating you and bouncing off ideas(you actually respond to questions most of the time and dont get super pissy often), even friends sort of...
Thanks, and I apologize when I do come off as pissy, which I'm sure happens from time to time. 
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: ...but it's just always seemed odd to me that you were adamant that when you went on your trip you said everyone there loved Putin...
To be clear, I said about 95% supported Russia (not necessarily Putin), and I went out of my way to talk to the 5% who didn't.
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Seriously_trippin said: ...and there was no possibility of any of them saying they loved being annexed because people who speak out about it get destroyed by the Russian government.
Not true. The Tatars, who were anti-Russia, freely spoke with me with absolutely no fear. And many pro-Russia people I spoke with had no problem sharing their anti-Putin viewpoints with me.
This "people are scared to talk" nonsense that koods keeps spreading is leftover communist era propaganda.
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Seriously_trippin said: Also you were very pro Russia being in the G7.
I remember providing logic for why it made sense for Russia and China to be in the G7/8/9, and others agreed.
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Seriously_trippin said: You portray Russian state television as honest and reliable source of news.
And I will continue doing so until you or anyone else finds fake news. Feldman114 thought it was fair to bash RT because the title of an article didn't contain all the details of the article, but the first sentence of the article cleared everything up.
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: You often deny any Russian involment in the 2016 elections by the 20 indicted Russians saying they had nothing on him and then it comes to Putin essentially becoming a life long dictator(even if he is popular) and you seem very on board with that.
Have they finally found evidence of election interference, or was I correct in that the case would have to be dropped for a lack of evidence that I very clearly discussed?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26559976 - 03/26/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I think this it you claim to have acknowledged is different than what I asked, because "I've already acknowledged that [Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression] happens everywhere" doesn't really seem to make sense.
And then immediately softening that unnecessarily convoluted acknowledgment by pointing out that torture is technically illegal in Russia, so even if it did happen it's merely an aberration - as if legality has ever had an impact on the methods the FSB (the acronym formerly known as the KGB) uses in suppressing dissent.
Either provide a comparable case of political repression directed against anarchists by another country - preferably multiple countries to help establish your everywhere claim - or else directly acknowledge that Russia is the only country engaging in this method of political repression.
Your own example talked about torture in Poland. 
Yes but the Russian model isn't just torture. The Warsaw Three were certainly tortured by the police but the torture wasn't used to force false confessions - in all likelihood it was simply pain caused out of spite by the arresting officers. There's even a Nobel Prize winning play about the tendency for the anarchists in police clutches to be accidentally hurt, it's unfortunately so common.
I specifically refer to the Russian model for concocting a terrorist conspiracy and forcing their targets to confirm its existence by means of torture. The Warsaw Three, although initially charged with terrorism-related crimes, had these charges significantly reduced once the physical evidence was examined in the courts. The existence of an anarchist terrorist organization was not established.
The Marini trial (Italy), Tarnac 9 trial (France), Operation Pandora (Spain), Operation Piñata (Catalunya), Operation Fenix (Czech Republic), and a whole slew from North America all failed to establish the existence of a anarchist terrorist organization.
Russia added confessions gained via torture to the mix, succeeded in establishing the existence of "The Network", and now a group of young Russians are serving decades long sentences.
Can you find any comparable example(s) to this?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26560361 - 03/27/20 01:57 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Once again, I'm not denying these people were tortured for a confession, but that's not "the Russian model". Torture is illegal in Russia and people can get in trouble for it. As noted above Russians even complain about torture simply because of threats, psychological pressure, hunger, cold, night interrogations, rudeness, and insults because it's not supposed to happen.
The US often works with other countries like Venezuela to try and overthrow governments, and I suspect some overly defensive Russians were trying to ensure that never happens in Russia by sending a message to anyone that talks about it. My guess is these guys will be released well before their term is up, unless there is evidence that we haven't seen. That happens often in Russia.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26560853 - 03/27/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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So to be clear, you cannot find any other comparable examples of State security forces concocting an anarchist terrorist conspiracy and forcing their targets to confirm its existence by means of torture, despite previously claiming that "it happens everywhere".
If Russia is the only State using this method of repression, calling it the Russian model seems appropriate.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26560974 - 03/27/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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To be clear, I'm saying there are examples of confessions by torture in a great many countries. If it's important to you to claim that in other countries it's for reasons other than anarchist terrorism, fine.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26561294 - 03/27/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Egypt is currently ruled by a military dictatorship - is this really the type of country you consider comparable to Russia? I was thinking more along the lines of other European nations - you know, open and democratic like the way you talk about Russia.
I'm sure North Korea has used torture to manufacture political conspiracy before too, but if your list of "a great many countries" using methods similar to Russia is populated solely by totalitarian States, well I don't think that's a good way to argue that Putin isn't the Supreme Leader of Russia.
You can drop the anarchist label if you prefer - has any other European nation used torture manufactured terrorist conspiracy to validate State repression of political dissent?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26561409 - 03/27/20 03:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Did you forget about the torture techniques used by the US after 9/11 to extract confessions, which is believed to have killed somewhere around 100 people?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seriously_trippin
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26561445 - 03/27/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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So you're saying Putin the KGB figurehead doesn't have any kind of secret special forces that conduct Espionage and silence people through various means? There's mountains of evidence to support torture,chemical assassinations and the like not linking back directly to Putin but can you really expect that? Do you really think that Putin is just an innocent benevolent leader? If so what would make you believe that? Also I think it's pretty clear that you don't "not give a shit about Russia" Also with the Russian State television you say that you support them because they tell the truth but there's been Russian State television anchors that had to quit on air to get any kind of exposure to their lies
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Seriously_trippin]
#26561516 - 03/27/20 04:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: So you're saying Putin the KGB figurehead doesn't have any kind of secret special forces that conduct Espionage and silence people through various means? There's mountains of evidence to support torture,chemical assassinations and the like not linking back directly to Putin but can you really expect that? Do you really think that Putin is just an innocent benevolent leader? If so what would make you believe that?
No, I'm not saying that. You're just making things up.
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: Also with the Russian State television you say that you support them because they tell the truth but there's been Russian State television anchors that had to quit on air to get any kind of exposure to their lies
What lie?
That's already been discussed starting here with no answer to that, but maybe you're smarter?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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living_failure
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26562543 - 03/28/20 05:14 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: To be clear, I'm saying there are examples of confessions by torture in a great many countries. If it's important to you to claim that in other countries it's for reasons other than anarchist terrorism, fine.
In Spain it was clear during the Marta del Castillo case than one of the killers was tortured (even when he was a minor). Not investigated.
There are a lot of complaints made from Amnistia International about left and far left extremist being tortured by the police. Specially the terrorist groups GRAPO and ETA had said it multiple times.
I still believe that if you check it in lahaine you might find it, but the web changed years ago for a more "liberal-american" approach so i doubt it.
Here for example, people have gone to jail or faced fines for: insulting the king, burning flags or photos of the king, puppetmasters making subversive plays, or using tweet to express your opinion. We call it the "Ley Mordaza".
Just to make it worse, here a lot of people are claiming and most news journals see it too (even the ones that are married with political parties) that we have severe irregularities in our elections. Which is ultrafun because literally we had problems in our past Republics (we are a monarchy now) because of the "Pucherazo" this is, almost openly ridden elections.
I don't believe russian goverment to be more authoritarian than spanish. And probably french os german or whatever will be as authoritarian as spanish one. In general to be honest, europeans don't like freedom.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26563240 - 03/28/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Did you forget about the torture techniques used by the US after 9/11 to extract confessions, which is believed to have killed somewhere around 100 people?
No I didn't forget about this but I don't think it's a comparable example. Don't focus solely on use of torture by State forces - that is not the crux of my claim. The manufacturing of a false criminal conspiracy, summarily used to repress domestic political dissent, is equally relevant here. I've never made the claim that only Russian State forces engage in torture - the claim is that Russia is the only State to have used confessions-via-torture to successfully establish the existence of a criminal conspiracy.
Why is the manufacture of a criminal conspiracy significant? By establishing a fictional criminal anarchist organization with two tiers - the larger aboveground tier consisting of publications, presses, occupied centers and so on; and the clandestine portion, the armed gang - the State is able to charge numerous individuals active in the aboveground tier with "subversive association" by connecting them to the fictional construction of an underground organization. Given the tenuous legal nature of criminal conspiracy, often the only evidence for the “subversive association” and “armed gang” charges are the letters, periodicals, e-mails, conversations, and visits among those charged - things that, without being connected to a fabricated criminal conspiracy, would not be sufficient evidence. Because these charges are, in fact, not very defined, they give the State a sword to go on holding over anarchists’ heads - but only if the existence of a criminal conspiracy can be established.
Looking back as far as the 1990's, we can see numerous failed attempts at manufacturing a criminal conspiracy. Now this is where torture comes in - Russia is the only European State (I'll include N. America here too and really any non-authoritarian State) to have successfully manufactured such a criminal conspiracy and confessions-via-torture was the critical difference.
Remember that this discussion, which originally centred on the claim that Putin is the authoritarian leader of a Russia, was discussing the reality of State repression of domestic political dissent.
Perhaps you could further explain why you believe your submitted example is relevant: what criminal conspiracy was manufactured via this torture, and how was this criminal conspiracy used to suppress domestic political dissent?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26563707 - 03/28/20 05:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Remember that this discussion, which originally centred on the claim that Putin is the authoritarian leader of a Russia, was discussing the reality of State repression of domestic political dissent.
Actually, this discussion originally centered on the false claim that Russia was jailing people for liking things on Facebook, and you turned it into how Russia won't allow the anarchist movement grow by using torture to keep the movement down (which I didn't argue about - I simply stated torture was neither legal nor unique to Russia).
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Perhaps you could further explain why you believe your submitted example is relevant: what criminal conspiracy was manufactured via this torture, and how was this criminal conspiracy used to suppress domestic political dissent?
To show that we tortured people to hear what we wanted to hear.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26782932 - 06/25/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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So part of the constitutional changes in the upcoming vote is a ban on gay marriage. What a wonderful country Russia is. 😒
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: koods]
#26783041 - 06/25/20 07:30 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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That was proposed nearly 4 months ago.
It is scheduled for a vote by on 1 July (delayed from April 22 due to coronavirus), but we all know how much you hate democracy.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26783127 - 06/25/20 08:03 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Lol Russia isn’t a democracy 🤦♂️
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: koods] 1
#26783158 - 06/25/20 08:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Russia votes on things.
You always like to tell us how the guy the US declared leader of Venezuela should be in charge of that country instead of the guy the Venezuelan people voted for. To you THAT would be a democracy, amirite koods?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26783346 - 06/25/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Venezuela is not a democracy either
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: koods] 1
#26783409 - 06/25/20 10:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Venezuela is not a democracy either
Not if the US says "here's your new leader".
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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meltdowner
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26783473 - 06/26/20 12:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Russia is a democracy. I wish Trump could keep running until he's dead. Why stop a good thing?
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Brian Jones
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: meltdowner]
#26783745 - 06/26/20 05:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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He can keep running till he's dead. There's nothing stopping him; I mean nothing other than looking like a complete fool at home and abroad.
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meltdowner
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Brian Jones]
#26784545 - 06/26/20 12:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Fool? he's a genius. Why do ypu hate white people so much?
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: meltdowner] 1
#26784590 - 06/26/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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He’s a worthless cunt . Golf is one of the most feminine things a grown man can do to waste his time .
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2]
#26784901 - 06/26/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said:

He’s a worthless cunt .
What should Trump do about the increased cases that Dr Fauci or Congress already isn't?
He'll get criticized for shutting the country down and he'll get criticized for opening the country up.
Again, what do you think he should be doing?
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natedawgnow
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26785048 - 06/26/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well trump himself said he would be too busy running the nation to golf.
How much has the american tax payer spent on his golfing trips so far?
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2] 1
#26785062 - 06/26/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
What should Trump do about the increased cases that Dr Fauci or Congress already isn't?
He'll get criticized for shutting the country down and he'll get criticized for opening the country up.
Again, what do you think he should be doing?
Working on being prepared for the second wave , working on his vision for the next four years, anything that involves the word work . People say mean things I’m just going to play golf fuckit . Are you even an adult how can that be acceptable to you ?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2]
#26785121 - 06/26/20 03:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: What should Trump do about the increased cases that Dr Fauci or Congress already isn't?
Working on being prepared for the second wave...
You'd rather Trump do that than the experts?!? Ok...
Quote:
Psilynut2 said: ...working on his vision for the next four years...
You think he's going to be reelected then? Ok...
Quote:
Psilynut2 said: ...anything that involves the word work .
People say mean things I’m just going to play golf fuckit . Are you even an adult how can that be acceptable to you ?
You don't think business ever gets discussed on the golf course? Ok...
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26785418 - 06/26/20 06:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
You'd rather Trump do that than the experts?!? Ok
I would prefer the experts weren’t completely repulsed and insulted by Trump so they could all work together coherently like serious professionals .
Quote:
You think he's going to be reelected then? Ok...
I sure hope not but if he is I would like to think he wore out a few sharpies coming up with a plan for the next 4 years . Just the most basic thing I would expect an average person to do .
Quote:
You don't think business ever gets discussed on the golf course? Ok...
Our govt is not a business , we need a leader with relatable experience .
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