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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26560853 - 03/27/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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So to be clear, you cannot find any other comparable examples of State security forces concocting an anarchist terrorist conspiracy and forcing their targets to confirm its existence by means of torture, despite previously claiming that "it happens everywhere".
If Russia is the only State using this method of repression, calling it the Russian model seems appropriate.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26560974 - 03/27/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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To be clear, I'm saying there are examples of confessions by torture in a great many countries. If it's important to you to claim that in other countries it's for reasons other than anarchist terrorism, fine.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26561294 - 03/27/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Egypt is currently ruled by a military dictatorship - is this really the type of country you consider comparable to Russia? I was thinking more along the lines of other European nations - you know, open and democratic like the way you talk about Russia.
I'm sure North Korea has used torture to manufacture political conspiracy before too, but if your list of "a great many countries" using methods similar to Russia is populated solely by totalitarian States, well I don't think that's a good way to argue that Putin isn't the Supreme Leader of Russia.
You can drop the anarchist label if you prefer - has any other European nation used torture manufactured terrorist conspiracy to validate State repression of political dissent?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26561409 - 03/27/20 03:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Did you forget about the torture techniques used by the US after 9/11 to extract confessions, which is believed to have killed somewhere around 100 people?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seriously_trippin
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26561445 - 03/27/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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So you're saying Putin the KGB figurehead doesn't have any kind of secret special forces that conduct Espionage and silence people through various means? There's mountains of evidence to support torture,chemical assassinations and the like not linking back directly to Putin but can you really expect that? Do you really think that Putin is just an innocent benevolent leader? If so what would make you believe that? Also I think it's pretty clear that you don't "not give a shit about Russia" Also with the Russian State television you say that you support them because they tell the truth but there's been Russian State television anchors that had to quit on air to get any kind of exposure to their lies
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Seriously_trippin]
#26561516 - 03/27/20 04:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: So you're saying Putin the KGB figurehead doesn't have any kind of secret special forces that conduct Espionage and silence people through various means? There's mountains of evidence to support torture,chemical assassinations and the like not linking back directly to Putin but can you really expect that? Do you really think that Putin is just an innocent benevolent leader? If so what would make you believe that?
No, I'm not saying that. You're just making things up.
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: Also with the Russian State television you say that you support them because they tell the truth but there's been Russian State television anchors that had to quit on air to get any kind of exposure to their lies
What lie?
That's already been discussed starting here with no answer to that, but maybe you're smarter?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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living_failure
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26562543 - 03/28/20 05:14 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: To be clear, I'm saying there are examples of confessions by torture in a great many countries. If it's important to you to claim that in other countries it's for reasons other than anarchist terrorism, fine.
In Spain it was clear during the Marta del Castillo case than one of the killers was tortured (even when he was a minor). Not investigated.
There are a lot of complaints made from Amnistia International about left and far left extremist being tortured by the police. Specially the terrorist groups GRAPO and ETA had said it multiple times.
I still believe that if you check it in lahaine you might find it, but the web changed years ago for a more "liberal-american" approach so i doubt it.
Here for example, people have gone to jail or faced fines for: insulting the king, burning flags or photos of the king, puppetmasters making subversive plays, or using tweet to express your opinion. We call it the "Ley Mordaza".
Just to make it worse, here a lot of people are claiming and most news journals see it too (even the ones that are married with political parties) that we have severe irregularities in our elections. Which is ultrafun because literally we had problems in our past Republics (we are a monarchy now) because of the "Pucherazo" this is, almost openly ridden elections.
I don't believe russian goverment to be more authoritarian than spanish. And probably french os german or whatever will be as authoritarian as spanish one. In general to be honest, europeans don't like freedom.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26563240 - 03/28/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Did you forget about the torture techniques used by the US after 9/11 to extract confessions, which is believed to have killed somewhere around 100 people?
No I didn't forget about this but I don't think it's a comparable example. Don't focus solely on use of torture by State forces - that is not the crux of my claim. The manufacturing of a false criminal conspiracy, summarily used to repress domestic political dissent, is equally relevant here. I've never made the claim that only Russian State forces engage in torture - the claim is that Russia is the only State to have used confessions-via-torture to successfully establish the existence of a criminal conspiracy.
Why is the manufacture of a criminal conspiracy significant? By establishing a fictional criminal anarchist organization with two tiers - the larger aboveground tier consisting of publications, presses, occupied centers and so on; and the clandestine portion, the armed gang - the State is able to charge numerous individuals active in the aboveground tier with "subversive association" by connecting them to the fictional construction of an underground organization. Given the tenuous legal nature of criminal conspiracy, often the only evidence for the “subversive association” and “armed gang” charges are the letters, periodicals, e-mails, conversations, and visits among those charged - things that, without being connected to a fabricated criminal conspiracy, would not be sufficient evidence. Because these charges are, in fact, not very defined, they give the State a sword to go on holding over anarchists’ heads - but only if the existence of a criminal conspiracy can be established.
Looking back as far as the 1990's, we can see numerous failed attempts at manufacturing a criminal conspiracy. Now this is where torture comes in - Russia is the only European State (I'll include N. America here too and really any non-authoritarian State) to have successfully manufactured such a criminal conspiracy and confessions-via-torture was the critical difference.
Remember that this discussion, which originally centred on the claim that Putin is the authoritarian leader of a Russia, was discussing the reality of State repression of domestic political dissent.
Perhaps you could further explain why you believe your submitted example is relevant: what criminal conspiracy was manufactured via this torture, and how was this criminal conspiracy used to suppress domestic political dissent?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26563707 - 03/28/20 05:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Remember that this discussion, which originally centred on the claim that Putin is the authoritarian leader of a Russia, was discussing the reality of State repression of domestic political dissent.
Actually, this discussion originally centered on the false claim that Russia was jailing people for liking things on Facebook, and you turned it into how Russia won't allow the anarchist movement grow by using torture to keep the movement down (which I didn't argue about - I simply stated torture was neither legal nor unique to Russia).
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Perhaps you could further explain why you believe your submitted example is relevant: what criminal conspiracy was manufactured via this torture, and how was this criminal conspiracy used to suppress domestic political dissent?
To show that we tortured people to hear what we wanted to hear.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26782932 - 06/25/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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So part of the constitutional changes in the upcoming vote is a ban on gay marriage. What a wonderful country Russia is. 😒
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: koods]
#26783041 - 06/25/20 07:30 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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That was proposed nearly 4 months ago.
It is scheduled for a vote by on 1 July (delayed from April 22 due to coronavirus), but we all know how much you hate democracy.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26783127 - 06/25/20 08:03 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Lol Russia isn’t a democracy 🤦♂️
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: koods] 1
#26783158 - 06/25/20 08:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Russia votes on things.
You always like to tell us how the guy the US declared leader of Venezuela should be in charge of that country instead of the guy the Venezuelan people voted for. To you THAT would be a democracy, amirite koods?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26783346 - 06/25/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Venezuela is not a democracy either
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: koods] 1
#26783409 - 06/25/20 10:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Venezuela is not a democracy either
Not if the US says "here's your new leader".
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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meltdowner
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26783473 - 06/26/20 12:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Russia is a democracy. I wish Trump could keep running until he's dead. Why stop a good thing?
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Brian Jones
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: meltdowner]
#26783745 - 06/26/20 05:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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He can keep running till he's dead. There's nothing stopping him; I mean nothing other than looking like a complete fool at home and abroad.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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meltdowner
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Brian Jones]
#26784545 - 06/26/20 12:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Fool? he's a genius. Why do ypu hate white people so much?
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Psilynut2
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: meltdowner] 1
#26784590 - 06/26/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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He’s a worthless cunt . Golf is one of the most feminine things a grown man can do to waste his time .
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Psilynut2]
#26784901 - 06/26/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said:

He’s a worthless cunt .
What should Trump do about the increased cases that Dr Fauci or Congress already isn't?
He'll get criticized for shutting the country down and he'll get criticized for opening the country up.
Again, what do you think he should be doing?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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