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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26532263 - 03/13/20 08:18 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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feldman114 said: The American cops who torture people get caught. The Russian cops are doing their job, which is why they’re never held accountable.
That's not true.
Russian Cops Jailed for Torturing Suspects "A court in St. Petersburg has sentenced two police officers to four years behind bars for torturing suspects"
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feldman114 said: @shiva I see what you mean, but you should also understand that this back-and-forth about Russia is an ongoing thing. If I had any hope left that logic or facts can change what Fal thinks (ON THIS TOPIC) I’d keep the original discussion going.
See above.
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feldman114 said: I have this theory that Fal’s love for Russia is actually his hate for the U.S. in disguise.
I have no love of Russia. I have a strong hate of make believe.
If you like, I'll play make believe with you in the Kindeegarten Forum. Political Discussion isn't the right place.
You’re the only one trying to mislead here, man.
For example, the article you posted seems to refer to ex-officers (prison guards) torturing prisoners.
Quote:
Russia’s penitentiary system was rocked by a scandal last year after bodycam footage showed guards violently beating prisoners in a notorious prison outside Moscow.
It’s a bit confusing and, for some reason, there are no well-known news sources reporting on this story. I read it twice, and it seems 6 guards were pouring boiling water on prisoners and putting cigarettes out in their nostrils, but only 2 weee jailed and they both received the min. sentence.
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A third ex-police officer was found guilty of stealing a bodycam but released after serving time in pre-trial detention. A fourth ex-officer received a 3.5-year suspended sentence for falsifying evidence.
Two others were acquitted.
But, hey, it’s not like there’s a shortage of these stories. One Russian human rights group estimates that 1/10 Russians will be subjected to some form of torture by police.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-police-torture-abuse-igor-kalyapin-ngo-interview-a8976346.html
Why don’t you believe Russian human rights groups?
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Kalyapin says the Committee for the Prevention of Torture was born out of a simple if terrifying fact: Russian authorities were turning a blind eye to torture. Not a single officer was being brought to justice, he tells The Independent. Hundreds of official complaints were dismissed by prosecutors in the same way.
See, I’m not the only one who knows that Russian cops get away with torture on a daily basis.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26532277 - 03/13/20 08:25 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Find one example of something like this happening anywhere else in the civilized world:
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Twenty-one-year-old Artyom Ponomarchuk had been arrested by police in the Black Sea resort town of Anapa. The charge he faced was serious enough – assault – but what came next was inexplicable. First, the young man was deprived of air using a gas mask. Then officers applied electroshocks to his rear. And then he was raped with a truncheon so deep that his intestines severed.
Despite a case of evidence compiled against them, the police officers responsible have not been charged, and continue to work. And in a grotesque parallel development, prosecutors continue to push charges against Ponomarchuk.
Kalyapin tells The Independent that law enforcement is, if anything, becoming more brazen in its behaviour. Before, he says, police tried not to leave obvious marks; now they aren’t as careful.
(All from the above article)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 2
#26532815 - 03/13/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: You’re the only one trying to mislead here, man.
For example, the article you posted seems to refer to ex-officers (prison guards) torturing prisoners.
Quote:
Russia’s penitentiary system was rocked by a scandal last year after bodycam footage showed guards violently beating prisoners in a notorious prison outside Moscow.
It’s a bit confusing and, for some reason, there are no well-known news sources reporting on this story. I read it twice, and it seems 6 guards were pouring boiling water on prisoners and putting cigarettes out in their nostrils, but only 2 weee jailed and they both received the min. sentence.
Quote:
A third ex-police officer was found guilty of stealing a bodycam but released after serving time in pre-trial detention. A fourth ex-officer received a 3.5-year suspended sentence for falsifying evidence.
Two others were acquitted.
What did I misleading about? 
Quote:
feldman114 said: But, hey, it’s not like there’s a shortage of these stories. One Russian human rights group estimates that 1/10 Russians will be subjected to some form of torture by police.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-police-torture-abuse-igor-kalyapin-ngo-interview-a8976346.html
Why don’t you believe Russian human rights groups?
Who said I don't believe them? What I said was this behavior is illegal, and police can (and do) get in trouble for this. Do they always get in trouble? Of course not, just like they don't always get in trouble in other countries.
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feldman114 said: See, I’m not the only one who knows that Russian cops get away with torture on a daily basis.
I'm not disagreeing, but this isn't unique to Russia. Have you never heard about Americans complaining of police abuse?
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feldman114 said: Find one example of something like this happening anywhere else in the civilized world:
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Twenty-one-year-old Artyom Ponomarchuk had been arrested by police in the Black Sea resort town of Anapa. The charge he faced was serious enough – assault – but what came next was inexplicable. First, the young man was deprived of air using a gas mask. Then officers applied electroshocks to his rear. And then he was raped with a truncheon so deep that his intestines severed.
Despite a case of evidence compiled against them, the police officers responsible have not been charged, and continue to work. And in a grotesque parallel development, prosecutors continue to push charges against Ponomarchuk.
Kalyapin tells The Independent that law enforcement is, if anything, becoming more brazen in its behaviour. Before, he says, police tried not to leave obvious marks; now they aren’t as careful.
(All from the above article)
The number of abuse cases in the US is ridiculously high, including people getting killed in detention/prison. I don't know why you think this is exclusive to Russia.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feldman114
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26532856 - 03/13/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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You’re misleading people who don’t have time to read your link. The article is about EX-cops (prison guards). Just read what I quoted mang...it’s from your article. Here it is again;
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Russia’s penitentiary system was rocked by a scandal last year after bodycam footage showed guards violently beating prisoners in a notorious prison outside Moscow.
And if you believe the Russian human right group, why are you saying the opposite of what they determined (in collaboration with other Russian human rights organizations BTW)?
Their research suggest 1 in 10 Russians have been subjected to torture by the police. Electrocution, boiling water, rape, etc. Are you actually suggesting anything of this scale happens in the US?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114]
#26533702 - 03/13/20 11:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: You’re misleading people who don’t have time to read your link. The article is about EX-cops (prison guards). Just read what I quoted mang...it’s from your article. Here it is again;
Quote:
Russia’s penitentiary system was rocked by a scandal last year after bodycam footage showed guards violently beating prisoners in a notorious prison outside Moscow.
I still don't know what I said that was misleading. In fact, your quote further proves what I've been saying - that this type of behavior is unacceptable, and that's why this was a 'scandal'.
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feldman114 said: And if you believe the Russian human right group, why are you saying the opposite of what they determined (in collaboration with other Russian human rights organizations BTW)?
I still don't understand. What did I say that is opposite of what they determined?
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feldman114 said: Their research suggest 1 in 10 Russians have been subjected to torture by the police. Electrocution, boiling water, rape, etc.
"Electrocution, boiling water, rape, etc."?
Have you read the report? Well over 1/2 of the respondents who said they were tortured considered the following torture:
Threats Psychological pressure Hunger Cold Night interrogations Rudeness Insults
And you laughed ("Ha!") when I said Maria Butina was tortured to get a confession, but that's the same kind of torture we're talking about here.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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relic
of a bygone era


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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26534586 - 03/14/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I have no idea if they are terrorists, and I never said they were.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I didn't know I'm only supposed to trust convicted terrorists.
?
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relic
of a bygone era


Registered: 10/14/14
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: feldman114] 1
#26534620 - 03/14/20 11:46 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Find one example of something like this happening anywhere else in the civilized world:
Quote:
Twenty-one-year-old Artyom Ponomarchuk had been arrested by police in the Black Sea resort town of Anapa. The charge he faced was serious enough – assault – but what came next was inexplicable. First, the young man was deprived of air using a gas mask. Then officers applied electroshocks to his rear. And then he was raped with a truncheon so deep that his intestines severed.
Despite a case of evidence compiled against them, the police officers responsible have not been charged, and continue to work. And in a grotesque parallel development, prosecutors continue to push charges against Ponomarchuk.
Kalyapin tells The Independent that law enforcement is, if anything, becoming more brazen in its behaviour. Before, he says, police tried not to leave obvious marks; now they aren’t as careful.
(All from the above article)
Careful with those absolutes, man. (Challenging someone to find even one similar case "anywhere else in the civilized world" as if even one example couldnt be found)
Off the top of my head I remember a case sometime in the late 90's (edit, 1997) where a NYC cop raped a detained man's asshole with a broken broomstick. The officer caught a pretty long prison term IIRC so it's not just a case of an inmate's accusation.
Edited by relic (03/14/20 11:50 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: relic] 1
#26534782 - 03/14/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
relic said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I have no idea if they are terrorists, and I never said they were.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I didn't know I'm only supposed to trust convicted terrorists.
?
Three things:
1. They are indeed convicted terrorists. 2. I didn't say I think they committed the terrorist acts. I made it very clear that I don't know. 3. I asked if I'm "only" supposed to look at their side, because I haven't seen the other side.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26547536 - 03/20/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said: The Network terrorism case is an excellent example of political repression in Russia. Anarchists, due to the very nature of the ideology, experience some levels of repression everywhere - Russian police aren't the only ones to torture arrested people
You're exactly right - you can find plenty of examples of torture by police in other countries such as the United States.
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shivas.wisdom said: ...and the Russian State isn't the only one to fabricate a terrorism case
You're exactly right - you can find plenty of examples of fabricating terrorism in other countries such as the United States.
Yes I know- that's why I state as much in the quoted post. I'm not sure why you felt a thirty year old story about police torture in the USA was pertinent to the discussion. Can you explain why?
Returning to the discussion...
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said: ...but Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression.
Can you acknowledge this?
I've already acknowledged that it happens everywhere, but torture and fabrication of evidence are illegal in Russia, just as they are here in the US and many other countries that use them anyway. Every country has a few bad actors.
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shivas.wisdom said: For more background on repression throughout Europe during this period, read (pdf link) “On Repression Patterns in Europe,” which offers a critical overview of repression and solidarity in six countries.
I won't disagree with you at all about this.
I think this it you claim to have acknowledged is different than what I asked, because "I've already acknowledged that [Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression] happens everywhere" doesn't really seem to make sense.
And then immediately softening that unnecessarily convoluted acknowledgment by pointing out that torture is technically illegal in Russia, so even if it did happen it's merely an aberration - as if legality has ever had an impact on the methods the FSB (the acronym formerly known as the KGB) uses in suppressing dissent.
Either provide a comparable case of political repression directed against anarchists by another country - preferably multiple countries to help establish your everywhere claim - or else directly acknowledge that Russia is the only country engaging in this method of political repression.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26547610 - 03/20/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I'm not sure why you felt a thirty year old story about police torture in the USA was pertinent to the discussion. Can you explain why?
To show that torture happens even in places where it's not allowed.
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shivas.wisdom said: Returning to the discussion...
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said: ...but Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression.
Can you acknowledge this?
I've already acknowledged that it happens everywhere, but torture and fabrication of evidence are illegal in Russia, just as they are here in the US and many other countries that use them anyway. Every country has a few bad actors.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: For more background on repression throughout Europe during this period, read (pdf link) “On Repression Patterns in Europe,” which offers a critical overview of repression and solidarity in six countries.
I won't disagree with you at all about this.
I think this it you claim to have acknowledged is different than what I asked, because "I've already acknowledged that [Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression] happens everywhere" doesn't really seem to make sense.
And then immediately softening that unnecessarily convoluted acknowledgment by pointing out that torture is technically illegal in Russia, so even if it did happen it's merely an aberration - as if legality has ever had an impact on the methods the FSB (the acronym formerly known as the KGB) uses in suppressing dissent.
Either provide a comparable case of political repression directed against anarchists by another country - preferably multiple countries to help establish your everywhere claim - or else directly acknowledge that Russia is the only country engaging in this method of political repression.
Your own example talked about torture in Poland.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26547738 - 03/20/20 10:25 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It’s so telling that you care more about the reputation of whatever you are defending than making moral judgements, that you end up having to defend whatever behaviors they are being criticized for.
Russia tortures but so does everyone else. 🤦♂️
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Seriously_trippin
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: koods]
#26547890 - 03/21/20 12:34 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It always brakes me wonder why he has an undying boner for russia.
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Seriously_trippin]
#26547903 - 03/21/20 12:43 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'll tell you for maybe the 50th time: I couldn't give two shits about Russia. I care about the facts and truth, unlike koods.
If other countries use torture, that doesn't mean I condone it. I don't know how you guys jumped to these conclusions, but I guess we all know koods is King of Make Believe.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26547912 - 03/21/20 12:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I'll tell you for maybe the 50th time: I couldn't give two shits about Russia.
This is a completely laughable claim and nobody reading this who has any familiarity with your posts will believe it. It’s gaslighting.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: koods]
#26547917 - 03/21/20 12:52 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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When have I ever made anything up about Russia?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26547922 - 03/21/20 12:55 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Never said you did.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26549132 - 03/21/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I'll tell you for maybe the 50th time: I couldn't give two shits about Russia. I care about the facts and truth, unlike koods.
If other countries use torture, that doesn't mean I condone it. I don't know how you guys jumped to these conclusions, but I guess we all know koods is King of Make Believe.
Don't get me wrong I do love debating you and bouncing off ideas(you actually respond to questions most of the time and dont get super pissy often), even friends sort of but it's just always seemed odd to me that you were adamant that when you went on your trip you said everyone there loved Putin and there was no possibility of any of them saying they loved being annexed because people who speak out about it get destroyed by the Russian government. Also you were very pro Russia being in the G7.
You portray Russian state television as honest and reliable source of news. You often deny any Russian involment in the 2016 elections by the 20 indicted Russians saying they had nothing on him and then it comes to Putin essentially becoming a life long dictator(even if he is popular) and you seem very on board with that.
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Seriously_trippin] 2
#26549209 - 03/21/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: Don't get me wrong I do love debating you and bouncing off ideas(you actually respond to questions most of the time and dont get super pissy often), even friends sort of...
Thanks, and I apologize when I do come off as pissy, which I'm sure happens from time to time. 
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: ...but it's just always seemed odd to me that you were adamant that when you went on your trip you said everyone there loved Putin...
To be clear, I said about 95% supported Russia (not necessarily Putin), and I went out of my way to talk to the 5% who didn't.
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Seriously_trippin said: ...and there was no possibility of any of them saying they loved being annexed because people who speak out about it get destroyed by the Russian government.
Not true. The Tatars, who were anti-Russia, freely spoke with me with absolutely no fear. And many pro-Russia people I spoke with had no problem sharing their anti-Putin viewpoints with me.
This "people are scared to talk" nonsense that koods keeps spreading is leftover communist era propaganda.
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Seriously_trippin said: Also you were very pro Russia being in the G7.
I remember providing logic for why it made sense for Russia and China to be in the G7/8/9, and others agreed.
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Seriously_trippin said: You portray Russian state television as honest and reliable source of news.
And I will continue doing so until you or anyone else finds fake news. Feldman114 thought it was fair to bash RT because the title of an article didn't contain all the details of the article, but the first sentence of the article cleared everything up.
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said: You often deny any Russian involment in the 2016 elections by the 20 indicted Russians saying they had nothing on him and then it comes to Putin essentially becoming a life long dictator(even if he is popular) and you seem very on board with that.
Have they finally found evidence of election interference, or was I correct in that the case would have to be dropped for a lack of evidence that I very clearly discussed?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26559976 - 03/26/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I think this it you claim to have acknowledged is different than what I asked, because "I've already acknowledged that [Russia is the only country (I'm aware of) that is using both against its own citizens as a method of political repression] happens everywhere" doesn't really seem to make sense.
And then immediately softening that unnecessarily convoluted acknowledgment by pointing out that torture is technically illegal in Russia, so even if it did happen it's merely an aberration - as if legality has ever had an impact on the methods the FSB (the acronym formerly known as the KGB) uses in suppressing dissent.
Either provide a comparable case of political repression directed against anarchists by another country - preferably multiple countries to help establish your everywhere claim - or else directly acknowledge that Russia is the only country engaging in this method of political repression.
Your own example talked about torture in Poland. 
Yes but the Russian model isn't just torture. The Warsaw Three were certainly tortured by the police but the torture wasn't used to force false confessions - in all likelihood it was simply pain caused out of spite by the arresting officers. There's even a Nobel Prize winning play about the tendency for the anarchists in police clutches to be accidentally hurt, it's unfortunately so common.
I specifically refer to the Russian model for concocting a terrorist conspiracy and forcing their targets to confirm its existence by means of torture. The Warsaw Three, although initially charged with terrorism-related crimes, had these charges significantly reduced once the physical evidence was examined in the courts. The existence of an anarchist terrorist organization was not established.
The Marini trial (Italy), Tarnac 9 trial (France), Operation Pandora (Spain), Operation Piñata (Catalunya), Operation Fenix (Czech Republic), and a whole slew from North America all failed to establish the existence of a anarchist terrorist organization.
Russia added confessions gained via torture to the mix, succeeded in establishing the existence of "The Network", and now a group of young Russians are serving decades long sentences.
Can you find any comparable example(s) to this?
--------------------
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin Will Stay Supreme Leader of Russia Until 2036 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26560361 - 03/27/20 01:57 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Once again, I'm not denying these people were tortured for a confession, but that's not "the Russian model". Torture is illegal in Russia and people can get in trouble for it. As noted above Russians even complain about torture simply because of threats, psychological pressure, hunger, cold, night interrogations, rudeness, and insults because it's not supposed to happen.
The US often works with other countries like Venezuela to try and overthrow governments, and I suspect some overly defensive Russians were trying to ensure that never happens in Russia by sending a message to anyone that talks about it. My guess is these guys will be released well before their term is up, unless there is evidence that we haven't seen. That happens often in Russia.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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