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Offlinesaved7
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What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you?
    #26526770 - 03/10/20 07:43 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Many people claim that the Gospels of Jesus Christ in the Bible are unreliable because they were mythic stories or legends or frauds that were invented or made up... also that thery composed generations after the life and death of Jesus, and not by actual contemporaries and eyewitnesses of his.

But what if it could be demonstrated to you, beyond reasonable doubt, that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were the records of actual eyewitness accounts of Jesus? ...
How would you respond?

What if it could proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that the Gospels and New Testament of Jesus Christ were not, and could not have been invented frauds or fabrications... that they were really written by people who were actually experiencing and witnessing these events surrounding the man Jesus... and recorded with factual intent to the best of their knowledge and recollection.

Would you look to another excuse to doubt them and assume all these witnesses were only having mass hallucinations of miracles associated with this man Jesus?
 
And would you assume it only a wild coincidence and fluke of history that the belief in Jesus' death and resurrection and divinity rapidly spread across the whole world?  (Just as was repeatedly predicted in the ancient prophecies of the Bible: that a coming Messiah would both suffer profoundly and be crowned as Lord, ushering in a new kingdom over the whole earth, for all people and all nations)

This unknown man who was mocked and humiliated, and died bloody, nailed to a cross, executed as a lowly slave...
this man whose followers were chased, beaten, thrown in chains, or killed. 
Why do we, across the world, now sign our calender year based off Him, this nobody who died as a slave over 2,000 years ago.  Have you ever really thought about it?


If the gospels were shown to be based on actual trustworthy, contemporary eyewitness accounts, could you accept the possibility that they are actually true? 
That Jesus actually was and is who he claimed to be?

Honestly, is it really evidence you're seeking?  Or are you just looking for ways to doubt? 

Do you really seek the truth or would you prefer not knowing?


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"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26526891 - 03/10/20 09:12 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

If you have proof, where is faith?


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Offlineaudiophoenix
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26526899 - 03/10/20 09:16 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Is this a real question or are you just trying to proselytize?

This is a non-sense question. In some fantasy world where we could go back 2000+ years and see what actually happened or find some ancient video footage from UFOs I would believe in the events, but I would still have a lot of questions about the theology of the christian religion.

If I could prove to you that my cat is actually the a grand wizard that and you are really a potato chip, would you really believe it? They are equally unproved.

Is the only reason you believe because a lot of other people believe? We base our calendar year off of him because in 1582 years ago people were much less educated than today and Christianity was a dominant religion. I wonder why that was.



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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
    #26526932 - 03/10/20 09:31 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

It's a real question


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineVP123
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
    #26526936 - 03/10/20 09:32 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The number of questions one could start with "What if....?" is endless. What if it was proven to you that it isn't the way you think it is?


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
    #26526949 - 03/10/20 09:38 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Meh, it’s an honest hypothetical question. Although, saved7 has never made any bones about his/her mission here. And is well versed. I don’t see why we would treat this post any differently than all the posts about their spirit guides and Hinduism.

I suppose it is directed at hardcore atheists. Where, we can safely assume most of the arguments are emotionally driven and filled with ignorance and bias towards any of the evidence in favor of the New Testament claims.

I don’t think that even if we could prove that the gospels were written by contemporaries of Jesus, that  it would cause me to believe those claims. I think, each claim would have to be examined in itself. It would be presumptive to think that just because mark said Jesus said “xyz” that we should trust mark solely on historic and literary evidence.

Being able to consider what kind of evidence it would take to be convincing to ones self is a legitimate method of inquiry. The fact that there are endless numbers of “what if” questions, doesn’t mean it is a less valuable question.


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26526959 - 03/10/20 09:41 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That’s not possible to prove, seeing as how Jesus was dead for over a century before the first bible verse was written down.

Even if you can prove those people believed in what they wrote, there’s no way they could have witnessed any of it.


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Offlineaudiophoenix
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 1
    #26526964 - 03/10/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I suppose it is directed at hardcore atheists. Where, we can safely assume most of the arguments are emotionally driven and filled with ignorance and bias towards any of the evidence in favor of the New Testament claims.




I'm not an atheist, but I anytime I've heard arguments between believers and non-believers the emotion and ignorance is coming from the believers. What evidence is there for the new testament's claims?


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OfflineVP123
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114] * 1
    #26526971 - 03/10/20 09:47 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The problem with possing this "what if....?" question is that it doesn't go beyond just that, and leaves the OP free of any role in defending his/her post.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: VP123]
    #26527000 - 03/10/20 10:13 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I will come back to this later with some copy paste for evidence of the gospels. It isn’t like you are going to convert because of it tho. It’s like normal evidence for historical events. Such as, was Jesus a real person, or how do we know the gospels weren’t written as fiction, or were the original writers actual witnesses, has the Bible been changed,  etc etc etc.  I will leave the more grand claims of Christianity to the OP.

Actually, second thoughts: I might not be back to post, this might be the wrong forum for my type of arguments. I go philosophical instead of spiritual and It will probably end up a debate instead of discussion.

Quote:

VP123 said:
The problem with possing this "what if....?" question is that it doesn't go beyond just that, and leaves the OP free of any role in defending his/her post.




Ahh, I can see that. The good news( pun ) is I bet saved7 comes back to offer up something beyond the initial question. Something to push the conversation further. We are all probably just being set up for a Ray Comfort style encounter. LoL, we all going to become Christians in the blink of an eye.


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Offlineaudiophoenix
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26527009 - 03/10/20 10:23 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I wasn't referring to historical evidence of the New testament and its writers. The comment I was responding to said evidence for the claims of the New testament.

Frankly I don't think it matters if Jesus was a real historical figure or not. We are talking about a time when evidence such as photographs documents or any other type of proof that would hold up in the court of law didn't exist. The question is was Jesus an actual miracle worker or son of God or was he just a figure that was blown embellished by the writers of the New testament


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix] * 1
    #26527016 - 03/10/20 10:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

GN 17:12, EX 12:43, EX: 21:1, EX 21:20, EX 21:32, LV 22:10, LV 25:44, LK 7:2, CL 3:22

These are all instances of god advocating for slavery. Straight from the Bible.

Go ahead, convince me this is true:snowman:


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: VP123]
    #26527103 - 03/10/20 11:23 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

VP123 said:
The problem with possing this "what if....?" question is that it doesn't go beyond just that, and leaves the OP free of any role in defending his/her post.




I believe it can be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that the gospels are records of actual eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life and ministry.

From a forensic standpoint, the gospels bare all the signatures of being actual eyewitness reports, truthful memoirs of remarkable events viewed and experienced from different points of view.

And on the other hand the gospels bare none of the fingerprints of what you would expect from a legend or mythical story invented by story-tellers.  When you examine and compare the four gospels, they overwhelmingly defy this type of explanation, and I think this can be clearly demonstrated with a little patience.

Of course, debunking the popular claim that the gospels are myths or contrived frauds doesn't necessarily prove the accounts contained that Jesus performed miracles and rose from the dead... but it will make it very difficult to come up with an alternative explanation for why the gospels exist in the way they do. 

After seeing the evidence, the only real explanation standing is that the gospels are true.  People actually witnessed Jesus do these things and wrote down what they themselves remembered or had related to them by direct eyewitnesses.


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- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Offlineaudiophoenix
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
    #26527128 - 03/10/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You said a lot without actually saying anything. You believe the gospels are true because of the way they are, but didn't really give any insight or examples as to why the gospels could not be embellished or manufactured. We know that people do this even hours after witnessing events. We know that the authors have a motivation to convince people of their stories. I grew up christian and I was a youth pastor. My father is a pastor. I am well versed in theology and scripture.

After leaving the church in my 20s I dug deeper and examined it without the spiritual mindset and reading the new gospels really set off my bullshit alert more than I anticipated.

The fact that we have 4 different accounts of that have many discrepancies between them is quite telling. 



Quote:

I. THE BIRTH OF JESUS
A. THE GENEALOGIES OF JOSEPH
1. Matthew and Luke disagree
Matthew and Luke give two contradictory genealogies for Joseph (Matthew 1:2-17 and Luke 3:23-38). They cannot even agree on who the father of Joseph was. Church apologists try to eliminate this discrepancy by suggesting that the genealogy in Luke is actually Mary's, even though Luke says explicitly that it is Joseph's genealogy (Luke 3:23). Christians have had problems reconciling the two genealogies since at least the early fourth century. It was then that Eusebius, a "Church Father," wrote in his The History of the Church, "each believer has been only too eager to dilate at length on these passages."

2. Why genealogies of Joseph?
Both the genealogies of Matthew and Luke show that Joseph was a direct descendant of King David. But if Joseph is not Jesus' father, then Joseph's genealogies are meaningless as far as Jesus is concerned, and one has to wonder why Matthew and Luke included them in their gospels. The answer, of course, is that the genealogies originally said that Jesus was the son of Joseph and thus Jesus fulfilled the messianic requirement of being a direct descendant of King David.

Long after Matthew and Luke wrote the genealogies the church invented (or more likely borrowed from the mystery religions) the doctrine of the virgin birth. Although the virgin birth could be accommodated by inserting a few words into the genealogies to break the physical link between Joseph and Jesus, those same insertions also broke the physical link between David and Jesus.

The church had now created two major problems: 1) to explain away the existence of two genealogies of Joseph, now rendered meaningless, and 2) to explain how Jesus was a descendant of David.

The apostle Paul says that Jesus "was born of the seed of David" (Romans 1:3). Here the word "seed" is literally in the Greek "sperma." This same Greek word is translated in other verses as "descendant(s)" or "offspring." The point is that the Messiah had to be a physical descendant of King David through the male line. That Jesus had to be a physical descendant of David means that even if Joseph had legally adopted Jesus (as some apologists have suggested), Jesus would still not qualify as Messiah if he had been born of a virgin - seed from the line of David was required.

Women did not count in reckoning descent for the simple reason that it was then believed that the complete human was present in the man's sperm (the woman's egg being discovered in 1827). The woman's womb was just the soil in which the seed was planted. Just as there was barren soil that could not produce crops, so also the Bible speaks of barren wombs that could not produce children.

This is the reason that although there are many male genealogies in the Bible, there are no female genealogies. This also eliminates the possibility put forward by some apologists that Jesus could be of the "seed of David" through Mary.

[Editor's note: As one reader has pointed out, "Genesis 3:15 says 'And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed.' So women can pass on 'seed' according to the bible."]

3. Why do only Matthew and Luke know of the virgin birth?
Of all the writers of the New Testament, only Matthew and Luke mention the virgin birth. Had something as miraculous as the virgin birth actually occurred, one would expect that Mark and John would have at least mentioned it in their efforts to convince the world that Jesus was who they were claiming him to be.

The apostle Paul never mentions the virgin birth, even though it would have strengthened his arguments in several places. Instead, where Paul does refer to Jesus' birth, he says that Jesus "was born of the seed of David" (Romans 1:3) and was "born of a woman," not a virgin (Galatians 4:4).

4. Why did Matthew include four women in Joseph's genealogy?
Matthew mentions four women in the Joseph's genealogy.

a. Tamar - disguised herself as a harlot to seduce Judah, her father-in-law (Genesis 38:12-19).

b. Rahab - was a harlot who lived in the city of Jericho in Canaan (Joshua 2:1).

c. Ruth - at her mother-in-law Naomi's request, she came secretly to where Boaz was sleeping and spent the night with him. Later Ruth and Boaz were married (Ruth 3:1-14).

d. Bathsheba - became pregnant by King David while she was still married to Uriah (2 Samuel 11:2-5).

To have women mentioned in a genealogy is very unusual. That all four of the women mentioned are guilty of some sort of sexual impropriety cannot be a coincidence. Why would Matthew mention these, and only these, women? The only reason that makes any sense is that Joseph, rather than the Holy Spirit, impregnated Mary prior to their getting married, and that this was known by others who argued that because of this Jesus could not be the Messiah. By mentioning these women in the genealogy Matthew is in effect saying, "The Messiah, who must be a descendant of King David, will have at least four "loose women" in his genealogy, so what difference does one more make?"

B. THE ANGEL'S MESSAGE
In Matthew, the angel appears to Joseph in a dream and tells him that Mary's child will save his people from their sins. In Luke, the angel tells Mary that her son will be great, he will be called the Son of the Most High and will rule on David's throne forever. A short time later Mary tells Elizabeth that all generations will consider her (Mary) blessed because of the child that will be born to her.

If this were true, Mary and Joseph should have had the highest regard for their son. Instead, we read in Mark 3:20-21 that Jesus' family tried to take custody of him because they thought he had lost his mind. And later, in Mark 6:4-6 Jesus complained that he received no honor among his own relatives and his own household.

C. THE DATE
According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). This is impossible because Herod died in March of 4 BC and the census took place in 6 and 7 AD, about 10 years after Herod's death.

Some Christians try to manipulate the text to mean this was the first census while Quirinius was governor and that the first census of Israel recorded by historians took place later. However, the literal meaning is "this was the first census taken, while Quirinius was governor ..." In any event, Quirinius did not become governor of Syria until well after Herod's death.

D. THE PLACE
Both Matthew and Luke say that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Matthew quotes Micah 5:2 to show that this was in fulfillment of prophecy. Actually, Matthew misquotes Micah (compare Micah 5:2 to Matthew 2:6). Although this misquote is rather insignificant, Matthew's poor understanding of Hebrew will have great significance later in his gospel.

Luke has Mary and Joseph travelling from their home in Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem in Judea for the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:4). Matthew, in contradiction to Luke, says that it was only after the birth of Jesus that Mary and Joseph resided in Nazareth, and then only because they were afraid to return to Judea (Matthew 2:21-23).

In order to have Jesus born in Bethlehem, Luke says that everyone had to go to the city of their birth to register for the census. This is absurd, and would have caused a bureaucratic nightmare. The purpose of the Roman census was for taxation, and the Romans were interested in where the people lived and worked, not where they were born (which they could have found out by simply asking rather than causing thousands of people to travel).

E. THE PROPHECIES
Matthew says that the birth of Jesus and the events following it fulfilled several Old Testament prophecies. These prophecies include:

1. The virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14)
This verse is part of a prophecy that Isaiah relates to King Ahaz regarding the fate of the two kings threatening Judah at that time and the fate of Judah itself. In the original Hebrew, the verse says that a "young woman" will give birth, not a "virgin" which is an entirely different Hebrew word. The young woman became a virgin only when the Hebrew word was mistranslated into Greek.

This passage obviously has nothing to do with Jesus (who, if this prophecy did apply to him, should have been named Immanuel instead of Jesus).

2. The "slaughter of the innocents" (Jeremiah 31:15)
Matthew says that Herod, in an attempt to kill the newborn Messiah, had all the male children two years old and under put to death in Bethlehem and its environs, and that this was in fulfillment of prophecy.

This is a pure invention on Matthew's part. Herod was guilty of many monstrous crimes, including the murder of several members of his own family. However, ancient historians such as Josephus, who delighted in listing Herod's crimes, do not mention what would have been Herod's greatest crime by far. It simply didn't happen.

The context of Jeremiah 31:15 makes it clear that the weeping is for the Israelites about to be taken into exile in Babylon, and has nothing to do with slaughtered children hundreds of years later.

3. Called out of Egypt (Hosea 11:1)
Matthew has Mary, Joseph and Jesus fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod, and says that the return of Jesus from Egypt was in fulfillment of prophecy (Matthew 2:15). However, Matthew quotes only the second half of Hosea 11:1. The first half of the verse makes it very clear that the verse refers to God calling the Israelites out of Egypt in the exodus led by Moses, and has nothing to do with Jesus.

As further proof that the slaughter of the innocents and the flight into Egypt never happened, one need only compare the Matthew and Luke accounts of what happened between the time of Jesus' birth and the family's arrival in Nazareth. According to Luke, forty days (the purification period) after Jesus was born, his parents brought him to the temple, made the prescribed sacrifice, and returned to Nazareth. Into this same time period Matthew somehow manages to squeeze: the visit of the Magi to Herod, the slaughter of the innocents and the flight into Egypt, the sojourn in Egypt, and the return from Egypt. All of this action must occur in the forty day period because Matthew has the Magi visit Jesus in Bethlehem before the slaughter of the innocents.

F. THE TRUTH BEHIND THE PROPHECIES - MATTHEW'S BIG BLUNDER
Since the prophecies mentioned above do not, in their original context, refer to Jesus, why did Matthew include them in his gospel? There are two possibilities:

1. The church says that the words had a hidden future context as well as the original context, ie, God was keeping very important secrets from His chosen people.

2. Matthew, in his zeal to prove that Jesus was the Messiah, searched the Old Testament for passages (sometimes just phrases) that could be construed as messianic prophecies and then created or modified events in Jesus' life to fulfill those "prophecies."

Fortunately for those who really want to know the truth, Matthew made a colossal blunder later in his gospel which leaves no doubt at all as to which of the above possibilities is true. His blunder involves what is known as Jesus' triumphant entry into Jerusalem riding on a donkey (if you believe Mark, Luke or John) or riding on two donkeys (if you believe Matthew). In Matthew 21:1-7, two animals are mentioned in three of the verses, so this cannot be explained away as a copying error. And Matthew has Jesus riding on both animals at the same time, for verse 7 literally says, "on them he sat."

Why does Matthew have Jesus riding on two donkeys at the same time? Because he misread Zechariah 9:9 which reads in part, "mounted on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey."

Anyone familiar with Old Testament Hebrew would know that the word translated "and" in this passage does not indicate another animal but is used in the sense of "even" (which is used in many translations) for emphasis. The Old Testament often uses parallel phrases which refer to the same thing for emphasis, but Matthew was evidently not familiar with this usage. Although the result is rather humorous, it is also very revealing. It demonstrates conclusively that Matthew created events in Jesus' life to fulfill Old Testament prophecies, even if it meant creating an absurd event. Matthew's gospel is full of fulfilled prophecies. Working the way Matthew did, and believing as the church does in "future contexts," any phrase in the Bible could be turned into a fulfilled prophecy!

G. CONCLUSIONS REACHED SO FAR
From looking at just the birth accounts several conclusions can be reached, all of which will be further reinforced by examining other parts of the New Testament:

1. The gospel writers contradict each other.

2. The gospel writers rewrote history when it suited their purposes.

3. The gospels were extensively edited to accommodate the evolving dogma of the church.

4. The gospel writers misused the Old Testament to provide prophecies for Jesus to fulfill.

From the birth accounts alone, it is obvious that in no way can the New Testament be considered "the inerrant Word of God," or even "the Word of God, inerrant regarding matters important to faith and practice."

II. JESUS AND JOHN THE BAPTIST
A. WHAT DID JOHN THE BAPTIST KNOW ABOUT JESUS AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT?
John's first encounter with Jesus was while both of them were still in their mothers' wombs, at which time John, apparently recognizing his Saviour, leaped for joy (Luke 1:44). Much later, while John is baptizing, he refers to Jesus as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world", and "the Son of God" (John 1:29,36). Later still, John is thrown in prison from which he does not return alive. John's definite knowledge of Jesus as the son of God and saviour of the world is explicitly contradicted by Luke 7:18-23 in which the imprisoned John sends two of his disciples to ask Jesus, "Are you the one who is coming, or do we look for someone else?"

B. WHY DID JOHN BAPTIZE JESUS?
John baptized for repentance (Matthew 3:11). Since Jesus was supposedly without sin, he had nothing to repent of. The fact that he was baptized by John has always been an embarrassment to the church. The gospels offer no explanation for Jesus' baptism, apart from the meaningless explanation given in Matthew 3:14-15 "to fulfill all righteousness." Other passages, which indicate that Jesus did not consider himself sinless, are also an embarrassment to the church (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19).

Luke, who claims to be chronological (Luke 1:3), tries to give the impression that John did not baptize Jesus. Luke's account of Jesus' baptism occurs after the account of John's imprisonment (Luke 3:20-21).

C. WHY DIDN'T JOHN THE BAPTIST BECOME A FOLLOWER OF JESUS?
If John knew that Jesus was the son of God, why didn't he become a disciple of Jesus? And why didn't all, or even most, of John's disciples become Jesus' disciples? Most of John's disciples remained loyal to him, even after his death, and a sect of his followers persisted for centuries.

The gospel writers were forced to include Jesus' baptism in their gospels so that they could play it down. They could not ignore it because John's followers and other Jews who knew of Jesus' baptism were using the fact of his baptism to challenge the idea that Jesus was the sinless son of God. The gospel writers went to great pains to invent events that showed John as being subordinate to Jesus.

III. THE LAST SUPPER
A. WHEN - BEFORE OR DURING PASSOVER?
In Matthew, Mark and Luke the last supper takes place on the first day of the Passover (Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7). In John's gospel it takes place a day earlier and Jesus is crucified on the first day of the Passover (John 19:14).

B. THE LORD'S SUPPER - INSTITUTED BY JESUS OR PAUL?
In Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus institutes the Lord's Supper during the Passover meal (in John's gospel the Lord's Supper is not instituted - Jesus was dead by the time of the Passover meal).

In 1 Corinthians 11:23 the apostle Paul writes, "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread..." Here Paul claims that he got the instructions for the Lord's Supper directly from Jesus (evidently from one of his many revelations). Paul writes these words about twenty years after Jesus' death, and had the church already been celebrating the Lord's Supper he certainly would have been aware of it and would have had no need to receive it from the Lord. Some apologists try to play games with the text to make it seem like Paul actually received the instructions from the other apostles, but one thing Paul stresses is that what he teaches he receives from no man (Galatians 1:11-12).

The Lord's supper was not invented by Paul, but was borrowed by him from Mithraism, the mystery religion that existed long before Christianity and was Christianity's chief competitor up until the time of Constantine. In Mithraism, the central figure is the mythical Mithras, who died for the sins of mankind and was resurrected. Believers in Mithras were rewarded with eternal life. Part of the Mithraic communion liturgy included the words, "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation."
  • .

    The early Church Fathers Justin Martyr and Tertullian tried to say that Mithraism copied the Lord's Supper from Christianity, but they were forced to say that demons had copied it since only demons could copy an event in advance of its happening! They could not say that the followers of Mithras had copied it - it was a known fact that Mithraism had included the ritual a long time before Christ was born.

    Where did Mithraism come from? The ancient historian Plutarch mentioned Mithraism in connection with the pirates of Cilicia in Asia Minor encountering the Roman general Pompey in 67 BC. More recently, in 1989 Mithraic scholar David Ulansey wrote a book, The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries, in which he convincingly shows that Mithraism originated in the city of Tarsus in Cilicia. That this is also the home town of the apostle Paul cannot be a coincidence.

    Paul admits that he did not know Jesus during Jesus' lifetime. He also says that his gospel was not taught to him by any man (Galatians 1:11-12). All of Paul's theology is based on his own revelations, or visions. Like dreams, visions or hallucinations do not come from nowhere, but reveal what is already in a person's subconscious. It is very likely that the source of most of Paul's visions, and therefore most of his theology, is to be found in Mithraism. That we find Jesus at the Last Supper saying more or less the same thing Paul said to the Corinthians many years later is another example of the church modifying the gospels to incorporate the theology of Paul, which eventually won out over the theology of Jesus' original disciples.

    C. JUDAS ISCARIOT
    It is very unclear in the gospels just what Judas Iscariot's betrayal consisted of, probably because there was absolutely no need for a betrayal. Jesus could have been arrested any number of times without the general populace knowing about it. It would have been simple to keep tabs on his whereabouts. The religious authorities did not need a betrayal - only the gospel writers needed a betrayal, so that a few more "prophecies" could be fulfilled. The whole episode is pure fiction - and, as might be expected, it is riddled with contradictions.

    1. The prophecy
    Matthew says that Judas' payment and death were prophesied by Jeremiah, and then he quotes Zechariah 11:12-13 as proof!

    2. Thirty pieces of silver
    According to Matthew 26:15, the chief priests "weighed out thirty pieces of silver" to give to Judas. There are two things wrong with this:

    a. There were no "pieces of silver" used as currency in Jesus' time - they had gone out of circulation about 300 years before.

    b. In Jesus' time, minted coins were used - currency was not "weighed out."

    By using phrases that made sense in Zechariah's time but not in Jesus' time Matthew once again gives away the fact that he creates events in his gospel to match "prophecies" he finds in the Old Testament.

    3. Who bought the Field of Blood?
    a. In Matthew 27:7 the chief priests buy the field.

    b. In Acts 1:18 Judas buys the field.

    4. How did Judas die?
    a. In Matthew 27:5 Judas hangs himself.

    b. In Acts 1:18 he bursts open and his insides spill out.

    c. According to the apostle Paul, neither of the above is true. Paul says Jesus appeared to "the twelve" after his resurrection. Mark 14:20 makes it clear that Judas was one of the twelve.

    In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells the twelve disciples, including Judas, that when Jesus rules from his throne, they will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    5. How did the Field of Blood get its name?
    a. Matthew says because it was purchased with blood money (Matthew 27:6-8).

    b. Acts says because of the bloody mess caused by Judas' bursting open (Acts 1:18-19).

    IV. JESUS' TRIALS, DEATH AND RESURRECTION
    A. THE TRIALS
    Before listing the contradictions regarding the trials of Jesus, it should be stated that the whole episode is quite obviously a fabrication. Anyone familiar with Jewish law recognizes the impossibility of the chief priests and scribes arresting Jesus and assembling to question him during the most holy of Jewish festivals.

    1. Where was Jesus taken immediately after his arrest?
    a. Matthew, Mark and Luke say that Jesus was taken directly to the high priest (Matthew 26:57, Mark 14:53 and Luke 22:54).

    b. John says that Jesus was taken first to Annas, the father-in-law of the high priest (John 18:13) who, after an indeterminate period of time, sent Jesus to the high priest (John 18:24).

    2. When did the priests and scribes gather together to question Jesus?
    a. Matthew 26:57 says that on the night Jesus was arrested the priests and scribes were gathered together prior to Jesus being brought to the high priest.

    b. Mark 14:53 says the priests and scribes gathered together on the night of Jesus' arrest after Jesus was brought to the high priest.

    c. Luke 22:66 says the priests and scribes assembled the day after Jesus was arrested.

    d. John mentions only the high priest - no other priests or scribes play a role in questioning Jesus.

    3. Was Jesus questioned by Herod?
    a. Luke says that Pilate sent Jesus to Herod who questioned Jesus at length and then returned Jesus to Pilate (Luke 23:7-11).

    b. Matthew, Mark and John make no mention of Herod. This, in itself, means nothing, but it brings about another contradiction later.

    4. Who was responsible for Jesus' death, Pilate or the Jews?
    The gospel writers go to every conceivable length to absolve the Romans in general, and Pilate in particular, of Jesus' crucifixion and to blame it on the Jews. The reason, of course, was that Christianity was going to have to exist under Roman rule for many years, which is why the New Testament contains nothing critical of the Romans, even though they were hated for their heavy taxation, and Pilate was hated for his brutality.

    For the church, the Jews made an appropriate scapegoat because the Jews were a thorn in side of the early church. The Jews, of course, had far greater knowledge of Jewish laws and traditions than the largely gentile church, and were able to call attention to some of the errors being taught by the church.

    The Biblical account of Pilate's offer to release Jesus but the Jews demanding the release of Barabbas is pure fiction, containing both contradictions and historical inaccuracies.

    a. What had Barabbas done?

    1. Mark 15:7 and Luke 23:19 say that Barabbas was guilty of insurrection and murder.

    2. John 18:40 says that Barabbas was a robber.

    b. Pilate's "custom" of releasing a prisoner at Passover.

    This is pure invention - the only authority given by Rome to a Roman governor in situations like this was postponement of execution until after the religious festival. Release was out of the question. It is included in the gospels for the sole purpose of further removing blame for Jesus' death from Pilate and placing it on the Jews.

    c. Pilate gives in to the mob.

    The gospels have Pilate giving in to an unruly mob. This is ridiculous in light of Pilate's previous and subsequent history. Josephus tells us that Pilate's method of crowd control was to send his soldiers into the mob and beat them (often killing them) into submission. Pilate was eventually recalled to Rome because of his brutality.

    5. Who put the robe on Jesus?
    a. Matthew 27:28, Mark 15:17 and John 19:2 say that after Pilate had Jesus scourged and turned over to his soldiers to be crucified, the soldiers placed a scarlet or purple robe on Jesus as well as a crown of thorns.

    b. Luke 23:11, in contradiction to Matthew, Mark and John, says that the robe was placed on Jesus much earlier by Herod and his soldiers. Luke mentions no crown of thorns.

    B. THE CRUCIFIXION
    1. Crucified between two robbers
    Matthew 27:38 and Mark 15:27 say that Jesus was crucified between two robbers (Luke just calls them criminals; John simply calls them men). It is a historical fact that the Romans did not crucify robbers. Crucifixion was reserved for insurrectionists and rebellious slaves.

    2. Peter and Mary near the cross
    When the gospel writers mention Jesus talking to his mother and to Peter from the cross, they run afoul of another historical fact - the Roman soldiers closely guarded the places of execution, and nobody was allowed near (least of all friends and family who might attempt to help the condemned person).

    3. The opened tombs
    According to Matthew 27:51-53, at the moment Jesus died there was an earthquake that opened tombs and many people were raised from the dead. For some reason they stayed in their tombs until after Jesus was resurrected, at which time they went into Jerusalem and were seen by many people.

    Here Matthew gets too dramatic for his own good. If many people came back to life and were seen by many people, it must have created quite a stir (even if the corpses were in pretty good shape!). Yet Matthew seems to be the only person aware of this happening - historians of that time certainly know nothing of it - neither do the other gospel writers.

    C. THE RESURRECTION
    1. Who found the empty tomb?
    a. According to Matthew 28:1, only "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary."

    b. According to Mark 16:1, "Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome."

    c. According to Luke 23:55, 24:1 and 24:10, "the women who had come with him out of Galilee." Among these women were "Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James." Luke indicates in verse 24:10 that there were at least two others.

    d. According to John 20:1-4, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb alone, saw the stone removed, ran to find Peter, and returned to the tomb with Peter and another disciple.

    2. Who did they find at the tomb?
    a. According to Matthew 28:2-4, an angel of the Lord with an appearance like lightning was sitting on the stone that had been rolled away. Also present were the guards that Pilate had contributed. On the way back from the tomb the women meet Jesus (Matthew 28:9).

    b. According to Mark 16:5, a young man in a white robe was sitting inside the tomb.

    c. According to Luke 24:4, two men in dazzling apparel. It is not clear if the men were inside the tomb or outside of it.

    d. According to John 20:4-14, Mary and Peter and the other disciple initially find just an empty tomb. Peter and the other disciple enter the tomb and find only the wrappings. Then Peter and the other disciple leave and Mary looks in the tomb to find two angels in white. After a short conversation with the angels, Mary turns around to find Jesus.

    3. Who did the women tell about the empty tomb?
    a. According to Mark 16:8, "they said nothing to anyone."

    b. According to Matthew 28:8, they "ran to report it to His disciples."

    c. According to Luke 24:9, "they reported these things to the eleven and to all the rest."

    d. According to John 20:18, Mary Magdalene announces to the disciples that she has seen the Lord.

    V. THE ASCENSION
    According to Luke 24:51, Jesus' ascension took place in Bethany, on the same day as his resurrection.

    According to Acts 1:9-12, Jesus' ascension took place at Mount Olivet, forty days after his resurrection.

    VI. MISCELLANEOUS
    A. THE UNCHANGEABLE LAW
    According to Matthew 5:18, Jesus said that not the tiniest bit of the Law could be changed. However, in Mark 7:19 Jesus declares that all foods are clean, thereby drastically changing the Law.

    The church tries to get around this obvious contradiction by artificially separating the Mosaic Law into the "ceremonial" law and the "moral" law, a separation which would have abhorred the Jews of Jesus' time. The Mark passage and similar ones like Acts 10:9-16 were added to accommodate the teaching of Paul regarding the Law (which was diametrically opposed to the teaching of Jesus on the Law) and to make the gospel palatable to the Gentiles.

    B. NO SIGNS, ONE SIGN, OR MANY SIGNS?
    At one point the Pharisees come to Jesus and ask him for a sign.

    1. In Mark 8:12 Jesus says that "no sign shall be given to this generation."

    2. In contradiction to Mark, in Matthew 12:39 Jesus says that only one sign would be given - the sign of Jonah. Jesus says that just as Jonah spent three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so he will spend three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Here Jesus makes an incorrect prediction - he only spends two nights in the tomb (Friday and Saturday nights), not three nights.

    3. In contradiction to both Mark and Matthew, the gospel of John speaks of many signs that Jesus did:

    a. The miracle of turning water into wine at the wedding in Cana is called the beginning (or first) of the signs that Jesus did (John 2:11).

    b. The healing at Capernaum is the "second sign" (John 4:54).

    c. Many people were following Jesus "because they were seeing the signs He was performing" (John 6:2).

    C. SON OF DAVID?
    Matthew, Mark and Luke all contain passages which have Jesus quoting Psalm 110:1 to argue that the Messiah does not need to be a son of David (Matthew 22:41-46, Mark 12:35-37 and Luke 20:41-44).

    1. This contradicts many Old Testament passages that indicate that the Messiah will be a descendant of David. It also contradicts official church doctrine.

    2. In Acts 2:30-36 Peter, in what is regarded as the first Christian sermon, quotes Psalm 110:1 in arguing that Jesus was the Messiah, a descendant of David.

    D. THE FIG TREE
    After Jesus' triumphant entry into Jerusalem a sees a fig tree and wants some figs from it. He finds none on it so he curses the tree and it withers and dies (Matthew 21:18-20, Mark 11:12-14, 20-21).

    1. Since this occurred in the early spring before Passover, it is ridiculous of Jesus to expect figs to be on the tree.

    2. Matthew and Mark cannot agree on when the tree withered.

    a. In Matthew, the tree withers at once and the disciples comment on this fact (Matthew 21:19-20).

    b. In Mark, the tree is not found to be withered until at least the next day (Mark 11:20-21).

    E. THE GREAT COMMISSION
    In Matthew 28:19 Jesus tells the eleven disciples to "go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

    1. This is obviously a later addition to the gospel, for two reasons:

    a. It took the church over two hundred years of fighting (sometimes bloody) over the doctrine of the trinity before this baptismal formula came into use. Had it been in the original gospel, there would have been no fighting.

    b. In Acts, when people are baptized, they are baptized just in the name of Jesus (Acts 8:16, 10:48, 19:5). Peter says explicitly that they are to "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" (Acts 2:38).

    2. This contradicts Jesus' earlier statement that his message was for the Jews only (Matthew 10:5-6, 15:24). The gospels, and especially Acts, have been edited to play this down, but the contradiction remains. It was the apostle Paul who, against the express wishes of Jesus, extended the gospel (Paul's version) to the gentiles.

    F. ENOCH IN THE BOOK OF JUDE
    Jude 14 contains a prophecy of Enoch. Thus, if the Book of Jude is the Word of God, then the writings of "Enoch" from which Jude quotes, are also the Word of God. The Book of Enoch was used in the early church until at least the third century - Clement, Irenaeus and Tertullian were familiar with it. However, as church doctrine began to solidify, the Book of Enoch became an embarrassment to the church and in a short period of time it became the Lost Book of Enoch. A complete manuscript of the Book of Enoch was discovered in Ethiopia in 1768. Since then, portions of at least eight separate copies have been found among the Dead Sea scrolls. It is easy to see why the church had to get rid of Enoch - not only does it contain fantastic imagery (some of which was borrowed by the Book of Revelation), but it also contradicts church doctrine on several points (and, since it is obviously the work of several writers, it also contradicts itself).

    G. THE APOSTLE PAUL'S CONVERSION
    The Book of Acts contains three accounts of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. All of three accounts contradict each other regarding what happened to Paul's fellow travelers.

    1. Acts 9:7 says they "stood speechless, hearing the voice..."

    2. Acts 22:9 says they "did not hear the voice..."

    3. Acts 26:14 says "when we had all fallen to the ground..."

    Some translations of the Bible (the New International Version and the New American Standard, for example) try to remove the contradiction in Acts 22:9 by translating the phrase quoted above as "did not understand the voice..." However, the Greek word "akouo" is translated 373 times in the New Testament as "hear," "hears," "hearing" or "heard" and only in Acts 22:9 is it translated as "understand." In fact, it is the same word that is translated as "hearing" in Acts 9:7, quoted above. The word "understand" occurs 52 times in the New Testament, but only in Acts 22:9 is it translated from the Greek word "akouo."

    This is an example of Bible translators sacrificing intellectual honesty in an attempt to reconcile conflicting passages in the New Testament.

    H. JESUS CALLS THE DISCIPLES
    1. In Matthew 4:18-22 and Mark 1:16-20, Peter and Andrew are casting nets into the sea. Jesus calls out to them and they leave their nets and follow him. Jesus then goes on a little further and sees James and John mending their nets with their father. He calls to them and they leave their father and follow him.

    2. In Luke 5:1-11, Jesus asks Peter to take him out in Peter's boat so Jesus can preach to the multitude. James and John are in another boat. When Jesus finishes preaching, he tells Peter how to catch a great quantity of fish (John 21:3-6 incorporates this story in a post- resurrection appearance). After Peter catches the fish, he and James and John are so impressed that after they bring their boats to shore they leave everything and follow Jesus.

    3. In John 1:35-42, Andrew hears John the Baptist call Jesus the Lamb of God. Andrew then stays with Jesus for the remainder of the day and then goes to get his brother Peter and brings him to meet Jesus.

    I. SHOULD THE TWELVE DISCIPLES TAKE STAFFS?
    When Jesus summons the twelve disciples to send them out to proclaim the kingdom of God, he lists the things the disciples should not take with them.

    1. In Matthew 10:9-10 and Luke 9:3-5, a staff is included in the list of things not to take.

    2. In contradiction to Matthew and Luke, Mark 6:8 makes a specific exception - the disciples may take a staff.

    J. THE APOSTLE PAUL GETS CONFUSED
    In Romans 7:1-6 the apostle Paul tries to compare a Christian's "dying to the Law" to a woman who marries again after her husband has died. In doing so, Paul gets hopelessly confused about whether the Christian corresponds to the wife (by being released from the Law), or corresponds to the husband (by having died). One scholar has referred to the passage as "remarkably muddle-headed." This just goes to show that, although a brilliant man, Paul did have his bad days.

    K. THE SECOND COMING
    1. During the disciples' lifetime
    There are several passages in the gospels where Jesus says he will return in the disciples' lifetime (Mark 13:30, Matthew 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke 21:32, etc.).

    The same expectation held during the period the apostle Paul wrote his letters. In 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 Paul says that the time is so short that believers should drastically change the way that they live. But Paul had a problem - some believers had died, so what would happen to them when Jesus returned?

    Paul's answer in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 shows that Paul expected that at least some of those he was writing to would be alive when Jesus returned - "we who are alive, and remain..." The same passage also indicates that Paul believed that those believers who had died remained "asleep in Jesus" until he returned. However, as the delay in Jesus' return grew longer, the location of Jesus' kingdom shifted from earth to heaven and we later find Paul indicating that when believers die they will immediately "depart and be with Christ" (Philippians 1:23).

    It is quite obvious that Jesus never intended to start any type of church structure since he believed he would return very shortly to rule his kingdom in person. It is also quite obvious that Jesus was wrong about when he was coming back.

    2. The earth in the Book of Revelation
    Revelation 1:7 says that when Jesus comes with the clouds, everybody on earth will see him. Some Christians have said that this will be literally fulfilled because the event will be broadcast by satellite over all the world's TV stations (We interrupt this broadcast...). Actually, the passage reflects the flat-earth cosmology of the time, as does also "the four corners of the earth" in Revelation 7:1 and 20:8.

    Here, and in many gospel passages, Jesus is spoken of as coming with or on the clouds. This is because the Bible's view of heaven is "up" and Jesus has to pass through the clouds to get back, just as in Acts 1:9 Jesus ascended up through a cloud.

    3. The Book of Daniel
    The Book of Daniel is included here because, after the Book of Revelation, Daniel is the book most studied with regard to the second coming. Christians are very impressed with the detailed prophecies in Daniel that have been fulfilled. Anybody would be, if they believed that Daniel was written during the Babylonian exile, as the book of Daniel says.

    However, the book itself makes it possible to pinpoint the date of its writing as 167 BC. How? Because up to that year all of Daniel's detailed prophecies came true. After that year none of them did. But how was Daniel to know that shortly after he wrote his book one of the greatest events in Israel's history, the Maccabean revolution that defeated Antiochus Epiphanes, would occur?

    VII. THE CAUSES OF THE CONTRADICTIONS
    There are four primary causes for most of the contradictions listed above:

    A. THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES
    The gospel writers (especially Matthew) tried to show that Jesus was the Messiah by having him fulfill Old Testament "prophecies," sometimes with absurd results (as in the case of the "two donkeys" and the "thirty pieces of silver").

    B. THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN JESUS' AND PAUL'S GOSPELS
    The gospel that Jesus and his disciples proclaimed to the Jews was in accordance with what the Old Testament predicted about a human Messiah reigning over a restored kingdom of Israel, a kingdom of peace and righteousness. The people of Israel were to repent as personal righteousness was necessary to become a member of the kingdom.

    In contrast to Jesus' gospel was the gospel preached to the Jews and gentiles by the apostle Paul, which Paul refers to as "my gospel" and "the gospel that I preach" to differentiate it from what was being proclaimed by the disciples. In Paul's gospel the human Jewish Messiah became a divine saviour of all nations, the restored kingdom of Israel became a heavenly kingdom, and admittance to the kingdom was based on faith rather than personal righteousness.

    The two gospels caused great animosity between Paul and the original apostles, an animosity that is played down in the books of Acts and Galatians, but which still shows through in several places. When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem were scattered or killed, and the opposition to the gospel of Paul was largely eliminated. The gospel of Paul was incorporated into the gospel of Jesus, in many cases supplanting it.

    C. THE DELAY IN JESUS' RETURN
    As time went by without Jesus returning, the apostle Paul was forced to rethink things he had written about earlier, including the state of dead believers and the nature of the kingdom.

    D. CREATING A HISTORY FIT FOR A GOD
    When Jesus was changed from a Jewish "son of David" sitting on David's throne to a divine "son of God" sitting on a heavenly throne, it became necessary to invent a godlike biography for him. Thus the troublesome virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, etc.

    The list of contradictions in this paper is by no means complete, the examples being chosen primarily from the gospels. The examples given above, however, more than prove the point that the Bible is most definitely not, in any sense, the Word of God. The church has made imaginative (and often absurd) attempts to reconcile these contradictions. None of these attempts have the ring of truth - instead they have the ring of desperation.




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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix] * 1
        #26527153 - 03/10/20 11:56 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    The story of Jesus is literally stitched together from legend. From turning water into wine, to resurrection and healing powers, it’s all been done before by heroes of ancient myths.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology


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    InvisibleShr00mEater
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26527365 - 03/10/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Jesus Christ. That is a wall of text.

    Yeah. Pretty sure this whole thing is not staying in line with the purposes of this forum. Hence my second thoughts.... which have now been confirmed.

    I do enjoy the demand for proof being placed on the claimant. However, we could cruise thru this forum and find some of the wackiest ideas going totally unchallenged out of a respect for others’ beliefs. It’s weird how Christian ideas are handled so differently from other kooky religious ideas.

    Maybe a mod could move this to Philosophy forum, if we are really going to haggle over the details.
    Bare minimum, can we handle one or two questions at a time? Out of that whole list, pick the best argument for the case against Christ, and then, as the OP indicated, what evidence from the other side would you consider their best argument?

    Ick, Yes please, let’s move this. There is no way this isn’t a debate.


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    Offlineaudiophoenix
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26527384 - 03/10/20 01:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Probably my bad for making it a debate.

    But in the OP his statement is phrased in such a way that it seemed like a challenge. I think I've seen plenty of ideas on this forum argued especially if they are asking for an answer to what would it take for you to believe it. :shrug:


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
        #26527387 - 03/10/20 01:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    VP123 said:
    You said a lot without actually saying anything.




    Because I haven't presented the evidence and arguments yet, which I'm still preparing. 

    Though already you've inadvertently shed light on a problem people have who insist that the gospels are concocted fables...


    Quote:

    VP123 said:You believe the gospels are true because of the way they are, but didn't really give any insight or examples as to why the gospels could not be embellished or manufactured. We know that people do this even hours after witnessing events. We know that the authors have a motivation to convince people of their stories....




    Quote:

    VP123 said:...The fact that we have 4 different accounts of that have many discrepancies between them is quite telling. 





    You put forth two arguments that contradict each other.

    If the gospels are manufactured embellishments, then why do they contain so many 'discrepancies' ? 

    Why would the authors fabricate or embellish a fictional account of Jesus only to not stick to that account?  (instead varying each of their accounts significantly with so many 'discrepancies'...)

    Isn't this the exact opposite behavior of what you'd expect from a group of authors colluding to sell a fictionalized event as the truth?


    On the other hand, can you imagine how easy it would be for skeptics to claim fraud or myth if all 4 gospels were nearly identical in their accounts?


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26527451 - 03/10/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    It would be pretty hard to have identical accounts from people who lived during different time periods.

    The answer to the OP is obvious - if it was possible, and someone was convinced, beyond a doubt, of the Bible stories being true, the only thing left to do would be good Christians.

    But it is NOT possible. Idk what proof you’re cooking up, but most religious scholars agree that it’s impossible to KNOW. Their argument is that god does this on purpose, so people rely on faith. If you know something for a fact, there’s no faith involved.
    I say that’s a weak ass argument. But I’m also staying tuned for the alleged evidence.:popcorn:


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    Offlineaudiophoenix
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26527475 - 03/10/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    VP123 said:
    You said a lot without actually saying anything.




    Because I haven't presented the evidence and arguments yet, which I'm still preparing. 

    Though already you've inadvertently shed light on a problem people have who insist that the gospels are concocted fables...


    Quote:

    VP123 said:You believe the gospels are true because of the way they are, but didn't really give any insight or examples as to why the gospels could not be embellished or manufactured. We know that people do this even hours after witnessing events. We know that the authors have a motivation to convince people of their stories....




    Quote:

    VP123 said:...The fact that we have 4 different accounts of that have many discrepancies between them is quite telling. 





    You put forth two arguments that contradict each other.

    If the gospels are manufactured embellishments, then why do they contain so many 'discrepancies' ? 

    Why would the authors fabricate or embellish a fictional account of Jesus only to not stick to that account?  (instead varying each of their accounts significantly with so many 'discrepancies'...)

    Isn't this the exact opposite behavior of what you'd expect from a group of authors colluding to sell a fictionalized event as the truth?


    On the other hand, can you imagine how easy it would be for skeptics to claim fraud or myth if all 4 gospels were nearly identical in their accounts?




    Point 1: People purposefully embellish stories and bend facts to fit their own agendas.

    Point 2: The gospels seem to have been embellished and facts altered to fit a narrative

    I think maybe there's two things I was saying at the same time and I think you are right that it was confusing there.

    Yes there's the fact that 4 people telling a story will never have all the same details, however this is a written history of events. I would expect some more scrutiny with regards to many important dates and facts that are different.

    In the case of a holy text especially, this is God's word to all humanity and believed to be ordained. Why would he allow such mistakes to be made? Many christians I talk to believe that the bible is the literal word of god. Maybe that's not your take, and if that's the case I give a bit more lenience to the facts, but then you have to consider that the bible is a canonized document. The canonization of the books in the bible left out lots of other gospels that have even more massive inconsistencies. So either the bible in it's form today is how god intended it to be distributed, or there's a whole other can of worms to sort through with regards to what information is the right information.

    Anyways, I'm not a theologian and I generally find the discussion interesting. I'm not trying to come down on you. I sort of forgot that this was not the right forum to begin a debate. So I do apologize for coming at you here. I'm sure we could go back and forth here forever really. I'm happy sit and listen and let you have the last word on this.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26527610 - 03/10/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:

    The answer to the OP is obvious - if it was possible, and someone was convinced, beyond a doubt, of the Bible stories being true, the only thing left to do would be good Christians.






    It’s the only honest answer to OPs loaded question.

    I’m with you. :popcorn: Lets see if he has anything reasonably convincing. My guess is, even if so, we will never be 100% convinced of everything the Bible says. Maybe on some points.

    I would like to point out that you mentioned the original gospel writers not being alive during Jesus lifetime. How do you know? I mean, it isn’t a strong counterpoint. It’s well known that the first copies we currently have are not the originals. It is assumed the original texts can be dated earlier than whatever the earliest copy you would like to choose. If we want to show the idea that, the writers were not alive at the same time Christ was, or that they took popular myth and codified it into a new sect well after Jesus’ death, We must look elsewhere than document dating. All it will do is place the original text of the author closer to Jesus lifetime.

    Not having original texts of ancient manuscripts isn’t a problem either. It’s normal.


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26527677 - 03/10/20 04:15 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Ah but it is.

    The Torah hasn’t been changed (supposedly) ever. One from before Jesus’ birth is an exact replica of one written today.

    And it makes sense why they claim it hasn’t changed for 5000+ years - how could people alter god’s word and get away with it? Surely god would make sure every soul hears HIS gospel, not some director’s cut that’s been edited for dramatic effect.


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26527726 - 03/10/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    It would be pretty hard to have identical accounts from people who lived during different time periods.




    Are you under the impression that contemporaraneous eyewitness accounts are usually identical?  I think people who compile such witness accounts for a living, like police detectives, would tell you differently.  Eyewitness accounts of the same events often vary significantly, one witness mentioning all sorts of details that are omitted by others.... In fact... that is one of the signature markings of genuine eyewitness accounts.  (When a detective interviews different people and gets an identical story, it is often assumed that they are colluding to get their stories straight.)

    Anyways, taking your argument about different gospel dates, why wouldn't the more recent authors just copy down the supposed mythical/fabricated accounts that came before them?

    That makes the appearance of discrepancies and varied accounts even more puzzling.  If this is all a story somebody made up, then why aren't the later gospel authors like John sticking to it?

    It grows even more enigmatic as we examine these differences between the gospels in detail, which I hope to do shortly.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26527863 - 03/10/20 05:52 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    Ah but it is.

    The Torah hasn’t been changed (supposedly) ever. One from before Jesus’ birth is an exact replica of one written today.

    And it makes sense why they claim it hasn’t changed for 5000+ years - how could people alter god’s word and get away with it? Surely god would make sure every soul hears HIS gospel, not some director’s cut that’s been edited for dramatic effect.




    So, now you are arguing in favor of the Torah being the preserved word of God?
    You also seem to be admitting that this “god” has a personal will and ability to directly influence the world. :grin:

    I thought we were talking about the New Testament? :shrug:

    LoL, I’m sorry man, I am not trying to be a butthole( too much ), I do like your personality. :sun:

    It’s only that I have heard a lot of the debate over this stuff is hashed and rehashed. And I think it’s fun on both sides. :laugh:

    I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything, just in case you thought so, I was just giving a heads up on a tough position for the critic of the gospels to maintain in a full on debate.

    Also, in a god vs. no god debate, which this isn’t, don’t ever admit god has a personal will and ability to enact it. It’s like giving the game away. :thumbup:

    Why don’t I listen to myself..... first post I said I knew shouldn’t be involved with a post like this. Wait until saved7 comes back, he is loading up now. Hopefully, he can steer this a little away from full on formal debate, and a bit more towards evangelism. LOL! :grin:


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
        #26527882 - 03/10/20 05:57 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    audiophoenix said:
    Yes there's the fact that 4 people telling a story will never have all the same details, however this is a written history of events. I would expect some more scrutiny with regards to many important dates and facts that are different.

    In the case of a holy text especially, this is God's word to all humanity and believed to be ordained. Why would he allow such mistakes to be made?




    I think these are typically not mistakes at all but cases where someone is jumping to conclusions because they want there to be mistakes.  It usually involves only a superficial appearance of a contradiction between gospels, without examining the context more carefully.

    For example, it is claimed there is a contradiction between the number of women that find Jesus' empty tomb. 
    Matthew 28:1 ,Mark 16:1 ,and Luke 24:1 have multiple women at the tomb, while John 20:1 seems to only have one woman, Mary Magdalene, at the tomb.

    This only appears to be a contradiction until you see Mary using the term "we" in John 20:2, indicating that she had been with others at the tomb.
    (And really even without that 'we' qualifier, it wouldn't necessarily be a contradiction, only an omission of details contained in the other gospels)

    I'd be happy to delve into more detail later on.

    Quote:

    audiophoenix said:
    Many christians I talk to believe that the bible is the literal word of god. Maybe that's not your take, and if that's the case I give a bit more lenience to the facts, but then you have to consider that the bible is a canonized document.
    The canonization of the books in the bible left out lots of other gospels that have even more massive inconsistencies.





    Because the other 'gospels' were recognized to be frauds by the early church who studied them, as early as the 2nd century AD. 

    It's not like the early church just randomly selected certain books to stick with.  The false writings were obvious and recognizable to them. 

    That should tell you something about the 4 canonical gospels.

    Do you find it a stange coincidence that the early church fathers always vouched for the 4 canonical gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John as genuine accounts... while rejecting others (like the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Peter, etc.) as being false writings?


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26527933 - 03/10/20 06:24 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    It would make zero difference to me. Even if it was 100% fiction (and I do think he was a real historical person), I think the character is still a good role model.

    Assuming the stuff about eternal salvation and all that was true (which I strongly suspect it is not), I'm not sure trying to be a good person really "counts" in the same way if you're doing it out of self-interest. IMO you should try to be a decent person to others anyway, even if there is no bonus round after you die (which, again, I really doubt.)


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    OfflineThe Influence
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26527970 - 03/10/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Why is there a wait to prove skeptics wrong. Why wouldn't you delve right into the facts? You continue to ask what ifs....kinda like the show ancient aliens.

    You said in one of your posts that christianity spread really fast....would the holy crusades or the like of the spanish inquisition have anything to do with that? I feel a lot of people would say they believe in something for the sake of not being slaughtered or burned at the stake....etc.

    I would love to have a benevolent god, but i dont think there is and you have demonstrated no proof of such.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26528006 - 03/10/20 07:00 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    Ah but it is.

    The Torah hasn’t been changed (supposedly) ever. One from before Jesus’ birth is an exact replica of one written today.

    And it makes sense why they claim it hasn’t changed for 5000+ years - how could people alter god’s word and get away with it? Surely god would make sure every soul hears HIS gospel, not some director’s cut that’s been edited for dramatic effect.




    So, now you are arguing in favor of the Torah being the preserved word of God?
    You also seem to be admitting that this “god” has a personal will and ability to directly influence the world. :grin:

    I thought we were talking about the New Testament? :shrug:

    LoL, I’m sorry man, I am not trying to be a butthole( too much ), I do like your personality. :sun:

    It’s only that I have heard a lot of the debate over this stuff is hashed and rehashed. And I think it’s fun on both sides. :laugh:

    I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything, just in case you thought so, I was just giving a heads up on a tough position for the critic of the gospels to maintain in a full on debate.

    Also, in a god vs. no god debate, which this isn’t, don’t ever admit god has a personal will and ability to enact it. It’s like giving the game away. :thumbup:

    Why don’t I listen to myself..... first post I said I knew shouldn’t be involved with a post like this. Wait until saved7 comes back, he is loading up now. Hopefully, he can steer this a little away from full on formal debate, and a bit more towards evangelism. LOL! :grin:




    I knew all that:shrug:
    And no lol I’m not trying to convert you to Jewdeism, I’m not religious in any way, shape or form


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114] * 1
        #26528019 - 03/10/20 07:09 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    It would be pretty hard to have identical accounts from people who lived during different time periods.




    Are you under the impression that contemporaraneous eyewitness accounts are usually identical?  I think people who compile such witness accounts for a living, like police detectives, would tell you differently.  Eyewitness accounts of the same events often vary significantly, one witness mentioning all sorts of details that are omitted by others.... In fact... that is one of the signature markings of genuine eyewitness accounts.  (When a detective interviews different people and gets an identical story, it is often assumed that they are colluding to get their stories straight.)

    Anyways, taking your argument about different gospel dates, why wouldn't the more recent authors just copy down the supposed mythical/fabricated accounts that came before them?

    That makes the appearance of discrepancies and varied accounts even more puzzling.  If this is all a story somebody made up, then why aren't the later gospel authors like John sticking to it?

    It grows even more enigmatic as we examine these differences between the gospels in detail, which I hope to do shortly.



    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    It would be pretty hard to have identical accounts from people who lived during different time periods.

    The answer to the OP is obvious - if it was possible, and someone was convinced, beyond a doubt, of the Bible stories being true, the only thing left to do would be good Christians.

    But it is NOT possible. Idk what proof you’re cooking up, but most religious scholars agree that it’s impossible to KNOW. Their argument is that god does this on purpose, so people rely on faith. If you know something for a fact, there’s no faith involved.
    I say that’s a weak ass argument. But I’m also staying tuned for the alleged evidence.:popcorn:




    You’re twisting my words, I never said that

    Still waiting for the evidence
    :popcorn:


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
        #26528044 - 03/10/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    The Influence said:
    Why is there a wait to prove skeptics wrong. Why wouldn't you delve right into the facts? You continue to ask what ifs....kinda like the show ancient aliens.

    You said in one of your posts that christianity spread really fast....would the holy crusades or the like of the spanish inquisition have anything to do with that? I feel a lot of people would say they believe in something for the sake of not being slaughtered or burned at the stake....etc.

    I would love to have a benevolent god, but i dont think there is and you have demonstrated no proof of such.




    I think he is casting doubt on common opposing arguments. And asking his audience to remain as open to his proposed evidence as they would with other common subjects. Such as the examples of detective investigating something. Or, ordinary historical facts, like canonization.

    Pretty much all the apostles, early fathers and a good number of normal Christians were killed and tortured because of their belief, prior to Constantine. I wonder why they didn’t renounce and accept the state religion? I say this to show the problem with the claim that of course people would convert to Christianity under threats of violence. It seems as if the early Christians were able to resist conversion, I can imagine that the pagans and romans could have resisted too. And undoubtedly many Christians did renounce, and many pagans did convert as well. I don’t think we can pin it’s rapid spread on forced conversions alone.

    It’s kind of amazing that Christianity made it out of Jerusalem at all.

    And, I must add, that any Christian of the Protestant version, who was worth their salt, would denounce the atrocities carried out in Gods name during the Spanish Inquisition and probably half the crusades right along with you. They hate Catholics. Lol

    Anyway, have you read saved7 other posts???? Guy can write a book. He is just warming up.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26528115 - 03/10/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    I really mean no offense when I say this, but when I address someone and something they stated I am aiming to hear their response. My literary comprehension is above average so I know what he was trying to say. In addition I have read every post in this thread. I have no doubt he could write a book, so can a lot of people. He, in all his book writing has only skirted around any kind of evidence or demonstrations he claims to have.

    If you have any evidence please show it or allow the op to speak for himself. As I said I am addressing his claims. If someone could provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt I would become a Christian (as I once was).

    And maybe you should look how long christianity was around before they were attacked for their beliefs. Another point would be that if there was a benevolent god that had looked out for his people before,  why would he allow people to slaughter millions in his name? He must've gotten tired after helping the hebrews out of Egypt.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
        #26528180 - 03/10/20 08:52 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    And I really mean no offense as well.

    Clearly, this is a public forum and I can respond to who ever I please. As, apparently, can you.

    Beyond that, no where in this thread does OP or anyone else claim they are going to convert you. Don’t get nervous.

    You seem concerned that there is not enough evidence for the gospels being accurate, but then you bring red herrings like the inquisition along, and now you are changing subjects to wether a god would or would not will the death of millions, a god you claim you don’t believe in, in the first place. I don’t suppose you notice a problem there?

    Anyway, you are obviously prickly enough, that we won’t be able to have productive dialogue, so, I will avoid responding to you, unless you directly address me. I was honestly trying to help, but, that’s the way it goes... I refer to my original post on this thread. Peace.

    To keep it balanced, let me point to an objection I have to the same claim you raised.

    saved7, what makes you think that the rapid spread of Christianity is any kind of evidence for the claims within Christianity or the Bible itself? Islam is one of the fastest growing religions right now, should we take that as an evidence for the validity of Islam as well? Not wanting to bring Islam into it, just as an example where we might think differently about a subject based on our preferences. Lots of ideas and beliefs spread quickly, I don’t think the quickness or slowness of adoption rate for new ideas relates to the accuracy of said ideas and beliefs.

    And further, you make a claim that the early councils acceptance of the 4 gospels is interesting. I am curious why you think it’s so interesting. Just because the councils rejected other books that were in circulation at the time is no kind of evidence for the credibility of the events portrayed within the accepted texts.

    If we try and say that a religious councils approvals and disapproval’s of its own texts were evidence for the contents of the text, shouldn’t we also say that any religious body who approves of their own texts could claim that same type of “evidence”?


    Edited by Shr00mEater (03/10/20 10:02 PM)


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26528633 - 03/11/20 07:21 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Ok so like the OP said WHAT IF....Ok what if it was proven true. I guess everyone take on it would be different. Even if it was proven to be true there is always more to seek. IT wouldn't be the end of the story or even the beginning of the story for me. There is always more that i dont know people that admit that are seekers. So what would it mean to you? would that mean you would think all other religions dont have truth to them? Would you just dismiss things like Hinduism? Me no i wouldnt. maybe things happen and things are reveled at different times to further our evolution. Is there one god or many? There used to be many gods now most believe in 1 god. So how could both be true The hindu idea of many gods being different faces of the same god explains this. Just as we have a ego but there is a underlying truth that we are all connected as one. So yeh for me things wouldnt change much its just 1 story proven to be true but that doesnt eliminate other storys for me. There is SO MUCH mystery out there and some of it probilly wont ever be PR0VEN one way or another. But i think its ment to be like that so each individual has to figure out what they believe and have faith on some things and come to their own truths. But the bottom line for me is that there are MANY things i do not know. I dont KNOW what happends when we die. I have my beliefs and have faith on some things but i am smart enough to know that i DONT KNOW. Sometimes when you have a belief and you take that as absolute truth you will dismiss others things that dont fall in line with that belief.....but as i said in my mind contradictory ideas can both be true. First off there is time and thing evolve and progress but even that things like the self ego AND the idea that we are all one (wich would be contradictory) can both be true


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
        #26529186 - 03/11/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Okay, here goes.  Thanks for being patient:

    First a little bit of introduction to the topic of eyewitness reporting with an excerpt from Hidden in Plain View: Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels and Acts by Lydia McGrew
    p.16

    Casual comments, allusions, and omissions that fit together are not what one would find in different fictional or fictionalized works written by different people.  They are also not to be expected among different legendary stories that grew up gradually long after the events.  They are the sort of thing that one gets in real witness testimony from people close-up to real events.


    quote from J. Warner Wallace, a homocide detective:

    "Often, questions an eyewitness raises at the time of the crime are left unanswered until we locate an additional witness years later.  This is a common characteristic of true, reliable eyewitness accounts.
    It's my job to assemble the complete picture of what happened at the scene.  No single witness is likely to have seen every detail, so I must piece together the accounts, allowing the observations of one eyewitness to fill in the gaps that may exist in the observations of another eyewitness... True, reliable eyewitness accounts are never completely parallel and identical.  Instead, they are different pieces of the same puzzle, unintentionally supporting and complementing each other to provide all the details related to what really happened.
    "


    Now for the first example (of many) of these types of eyewitness coincidences from the Gospels of the New Testament:

    In the gospels of Matthew and Mark, Jesus is captured and brought before the Jewish high council where his accusers claim that he threatened to destroy the Temple in Jerusalem.
    ------------------------------------------------
    And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying, "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands."
    - Mark 14:57-58

    At last two came forward and sad, "This man said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days."

    - Matthew 26:60-61
    ---------------------------------------------

    Yet none of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) contain any such statement by Jesus.  Nothing about destroying the Temple, or rebuilding it in three days.  Nothing at all to explain the origin of this accusation.

    It is only in the Gospel of John that we find the explanation of the accusation, in a completely different passage concerning a completely different time period in Jesus' ministry:

    ------------------------------------------------
    The passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.  In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there.  And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen.  And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables...  So the Jews said to him, "What sign do you show us for doing these things?"  Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."  The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"  But he was speaking about the temple of his body.
    John 2:13-21
    ------------------------------------------

    And while the gospel of John gives the explanation for the accusation, it does not mention the accusation itself before the Jewish council as the other Synoptic gospels do.

    In other words, the variations between the gospel accounts fit together like puzzle pieces to form a complete picture.  Matthew and Mark have the accusation but not its explanation.  John has the explanation but no accusation.  They are unintentionally confirming the reality of actual events, the same way that different details of multiple eyewitness testimonies will confirm each other if truthful.


    (don't read too much into this picture.. I just wanted something visual to look at capturing the "puzzle pieces" concept)

    This is exactly the type of pattern we would expect from genuine eyewitness testimonies and totally contrary to an expected pattern of a made-up story, myth, or fabrication.  These unintentional or undesigned coincidences are the fingerprints of truthful memoirs.

    Also, it's important to note that this is a cumulative argument.  If it were just one or two instances of this pattern occurring, it might be easy to dismiss it as a strange fluke... yet these types of coincidences in the gospel testimonies occur frequently across the entire span of Jesus' ministry...
    (I will try and post many more)
    ...and more importantly the same forensic pattern holds whether referring to miraculous or non-miraculous claims.  The gospels of the NT exhibit all the character of being the product of actual eyewitness testimony of the same basic events viewed from multiple angles.

    This doesn't necessarily prove the accounts of Jesus to be true.. but it is powerful evidence that the four gospels of the New Testament, far from being made up stories or embellishments, are indeed eyewitness testimonies from people trying to truthfully recount their experience of the same basic events. 

    The skeptic is left trying to explain how this pattern could exist, if not for the simple explanation that the gospel testimonies about Jesus are true.


    So this is my first attempt to lay out a rather complex argument in a brief post.  Hope it wasn't confusing. I will be happy to expound further, add more examples of course, and try and answer questions to the best of my ability.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlineaudiophoenix
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26529274 - 03/11/20 02:43 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    :popcorn:

    I bowed out, but look forward to the rebuttal.

    This is a pretty classic apologist cherry picking argument.


    --------------------


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
        #26529443 - 03/11/20 04:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    I will quickly concede that the original gospel text was written by either an eyewitness, a ghostwriter, or someone close enough to the scene to provide details.

    I do not believe it could be demonstrated that they are concocted fables or that the authors were more than a generation removed from the time of the events.

    I am still not sure how you plan to deal with the obvious bias the authors share towards their own claims. I don’t doubt that they had a sincere belief in what is claimed. But, even truth telling first hand witnesses can be subject to their own preferred perspectives and interpretations of actual events.

    And of course, could it be possible that the writers were simply mistaken, especially, once we get to the grander claims?

    You don’t need to address this contention specifically if it isn’t within the scope of your presentation. I am content to see where other posters have problems with your argument. This first point seems solid enough for me. :thumbup:


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
        #26529458 - 03/11/20 04:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    audiophoenix said:
    :popcorn:

    I bowed out, but look forward to the rebuttal.

    This is a pretty classic apologist cherry picking argument.




    I didn't cherry-pick anything. I just chose one simple example to lead with and will gladly post a bunch more over the next few days.  There are lots of them.

    These types of 'undesigned coincidences' (unintentional confirmations of each other) are prevalent throughout the four gospels. 
    The Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) explain unanswered things in John.  John explains unanswered things in the Synoptic Gospels.  The Synoptic Gospels explain unanswered things in each other.

    The pattern runs everywhere in all directions, and the resulting image is just like the forensic signature of truthful eyewitness testimony recorded from multiple individuals...  People witnessing the same major events, but from different angles, noticing different details, many of which only make sense when you compare them to the other witnesses points of view.

    ...all of which runs completely contrary to the popular notion that the gospels are just fanciful stories or legendary embellishments that grew up out of traditions or mythology.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: audiophoenix]
        #26529509 - 03/11/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    audiophoenix said:
    :popcorn:

    I bowed out, but look forward to the rebuttal.

    This is a pretty classic apologist cherry picking argument.




    Cherry picking is also a classic accusation from the other side. 😊

    It’s not really a fair accusation. Of course he is picking his best evidence, and leaving out the points for the other side! It’s normal debate. It’s up to us to knock holes in his case. He is representing the positive case, we as the opposition get to call into question his claims, and posit claims of our own.

    It is the same reason you won’t hear republicans make many arguments in favor of social services, or that democrats don’t talk about the validity of firearms in a self defense situation.

    If we really think he is cherry picking, we should find something that would show how he ignoring certain data in favor of others. That’s a big problem with some of these kinds of debates..... the atheist side won’t take the time to try and understand the actual arguments that the Christian is making, they don’t seem to realize that Christian philosophers have been practicing this stuff for centuries.

    So, at the end of the day, we all will talk past each other. The Christian side goes home thinking their guy won, the atheist side goes home thinking their side won. :shrug:

    I think a lot of the god vs. no god comes down to a persons take on materialism, if someone is a strict by the book materialist... good luck Christian!

    Luckily, most people only think they are materialists, usually they still behave, speak and think like a dualist.

    Sorry, I am just ranting now. I’m excited for when we get to the good stuff. This first argument, I am not to keen on challenging. I don’t think it matters wether the authors were contemporary with Jesus, I also don’t find it problematic to consider that they are actual reports of, at least some, actual events.

    I am most interested in his reasons for believing the messianic claims of the gospels. I can easily accept that a man named Jesus said he was the messiah, I can see a few reasons that the authors would believe him and write it down. I’m just not sure how this relates to wether or not he actually was the messiah.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26529564 - 03/11/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    I will quickly concede that the original gospel text was written by either an eyewitness, a ghostwriter, or someone close enough to the scene to provide details.

    I do not believe it could be demonstrated that they are concocted fables or that the authors were more than a generation removed from the time of the events.

    I am still not sure how you plan to deal with the obvious bias the authors share towards their own claims. I don’t doubt that they had a sincere belief in what is claimed. But, even truth telling first hand witnesses can be subject to their own preferred perspectives and interpretations of actual events.

    And of course, could it be possible that the writers were simply mistaken, especially, once we get to the grander claims?

    You don’t need to address this contention specifically if it isn’t within the scope of your presentation. I am content to see where other posters have problems with your argument. This first point seems solid enough for me. :thumbup:




    I think the fact that there are 4 separate gospel authors (written at different times) all converging on the same basic telling of events (with the unintentional confirmations of each others' accounts that you find in patterns of multiple eywitness testimony of events today) makes it very challenging to claim this was either a fabricated story, or some kind of shared hallucination or trance.  In both those cases you would not expect to find the kind of interplay of details between the gospels.  It is a pattern that would almost certainly 'catch' a manufactured story or myth, regardless of the biases of the witnesses.

    It's noteworthy that the Gospel of John is believed by everyone to have been written much later than the 3 Synoptic Gospels (Matthew,Mark,Luke)...  many years later when he was likely a very old man.  It is here especially that you'd expect such an eyewitness signature to break down, but instead of John merely copying information from the older Gospels, he has his own perspective of the events, and provides just the same multi-witness pattern of unintentionally answering subtle details left unexplained in the Synoptics, and likewise presenting other subtle questions that are only answered in the Synoptics.

    And again, this pattern persists whether or not it is dealing with miraculous or non-miraculous claims.  I will present more examples ASAP.  (and btw, none of this is original research of mine! I'm just a lowly servant passing it along!)


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26529589 - 03/11/20 06:03 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Still waiting for the proof (haven’t seen any yet):popcorn:


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26529897 - 03/11/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    Still waiting for the proof (haven’t seen any yet):popcorn:





    I dunno. So far, he has done a fair job of showing that the gospel writers were more likely attempting to relate real life events, rather than fabricating a myth, or simply copying each other.

    That’s at least some kind of evidence.

    What would you consider a suitable proof for the claims he has made so far? Or, is there an alternate explanation for the circumstances mentioned? I don’t have much, except wanting to invoke bias, which I don’t really find problematic, until we get to the more extraordinary claims. Specifically, Jesus divinity and resurrection.

    At that point, I see it similarly as I do reports of UFO, Ghosts, Bigfoot, flat earth, etc etc etc. I think the personal bias of the witness to these unusual events is going to seem much more problematic, than when we are simply talking about wether Jesus existed, or was in Jerusalem at all, or if Joseph was his father. In the same way I could accept that a person did see what they describe as bigfoot, but once they tell me this bigfoot was also and alien who rides a UFO around, I have to wonder how much their preconceived beliefs play a part in their testimonies.

    The burden of proof must rise with the greater claims. The specific bias for a risen savior-god can’t be written off so easily once we get to the punchline. The authors did not write these books as witnesses for a police report, there is a clear agenda for detailing Jesus divinity.

    Anyway, let’s not get stuck on that yet. I don’t suppose anyone has any fresh atheist counterpoints against the major premise that the authors were actual contemporary witnesses?


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26530334 - 03/12/20 06:14 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    More likely =\= proof

    He hasn’t proved anything except the possibility that they weren’t lying. He hasn’t even addressed the fact that, if they lived when he claims, they obv knew each other so corroborated accounts don’t mean much.

    The main issue isn’t with the writers though, obv. It’s not the part where Jesus tells people to leave a temple that sounds like a fairy tale. Eyewitness accounts from 5 minutes ago wouldn’t convince someone Jesus came back from the dead, much less ones from 2000 years ago.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26530388 - 03/12/20 07:18 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    What does = proof tho? If every point brought to bear isn’t “proof” to you, what would be?

    You might be raising the term to mean some kind of Ultimate Truth that would be incontestable by anyone. The problem is, everything is always contestable. As an example. Go ahead and convince me the earth is round instead of flat. You would be surprised by my ability to not recognize your proofs for a round earth. 😊

    If he is saying something that isn’t following logical rules, or if he is making false claims. We should be able to illustrate it.

    I do think he addressed collaboration. If they were collaborated, why wouldn’t they all say the same things? Or refer to each other’s books? Or what accounts for where the stories diverge?  etc etc,

    No one has objected reasonably yet. :shrug:


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26530396 - 03/12/20 07:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    You seem like a smart dude, but you just asked me to define proof for you. Sorry, but that’s what you did there.

    proof
    /pro͞of/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    1.
    evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

    Like I said, he only proved the POSSIBILITY of the writers being witnesses. There was 0 proof that the Bible story is true.
    He said he can provide indisputable evidence. Why are you attacking people who want to hold him to that?


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26530400 - 03/12/20 07:29 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    From the OP
    Quote:

    what if it could be demonstrated to you, beyond reasonable doubt, that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were the records of actual eyewitness accounts of Jesus?




    Why does the subject matter change the definition of “beyond reasonable doubt”?


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26530406 - 03/12/20 07:33 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    I think a standard of “more reasonable” or “less reasonable” is as close as we can get in philosophy.

    Even within scientific research, there are thousands of “unprovens”, probably multi thousands of questions left unanswered if we extend our demands of proof to “beyond all possible doubt”.

    Unless someone comes along with a good challenge. I think he won this point.

    It is safer to say that the gospel writers were contemporaries and wanted to relay those events accurately. Than it is to say, well, pretty much every early objection in this thread. I mean we started out with everyone assuming the Gospels were written well after the fact..... yet, no actual case has been made for that assumption. And, I am sure saved7 has more examples that exclude this line of thinking.

    Don’t worry tho, so far, he hasn’t proven any mystical claims within the text. Only refuted the common objections. And, going by the original post, I’m not sure that is the intent.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26530407 - 03/12/20 07:34 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    “Helping to establish a fact”

    Ok?

    And not attacking. If you notice I keep pointing to the bias issue. I’ve cast doubt on several of his claims, and plan to even more once he goes beyond the common.

    The reason I keep pushing back on you, or others is... well, no one is actually challenging his case.

    And, he did say “beyond reasonable doubt”, not “every and all doubt”

    I was hoping we had a solid atheist who knew the weaker points of these early points. But, I think his logical/reasoning problems will become more obvious once he extends these points to divine claims.




    Edited by Shr00mEater (03/12/20 07:41 AM)


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26530477 - 03/12/20 08:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    I think a standard of “more reasonable” or “less reasonable” is as close as we can get in philosophy.

    Even within scientific research, there are thousands of “unprovens”, probably multi thousands of questions left unanswered if we extend our demands of proof to “beyond all possible doubt”.

    Unless someone comes along with a good challenge. I think he won this point.

    It is safer to say that the gospel writers were contemporaries and wanted to relay those events accurately. Than it is to say, well, pretty much every early objection in this thread. I mean we started out with everyone assuming the Gospels were written well after the fact..... yet, no actual case has been made for that assumption. And, I am sure saved7 has more examples that exclude this line of thinking.

    Don’t worry tho, so far, he hasn’t proven any mystical claims within the text. Only refuted the common objections. And, going by the original post, I’m not sure that is the intent.




    No, not “all doubt”. Just beyond reasonable doubt, a term the OP used willingly.

    If “more reasonable” is the best he can do, he’s simply mistaken about his initial assertion. And that’s ok, but it should be acknowledged. Otherwise, wtf are we even doing here?


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 1
        #26530479 - 03/12/20 08:27 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    I think it might be helpful to use a mundane example of this kind of undesigned testimonial convergence... it's pretty crude example but hopefully makes the basic idea more understandable...

    Suppose there are three people, Alex, Bill, and Chad that each recall their independent experiences inside X-Town on a certain night of the year.  Let's say Alex and Bill are strangers to X-Town, while Chad is a local resident.

    ------------------------------
    Alex: I was staying in X-Town overnight for work, so I stopped at a restaurant to get something to eat but it was so crowded, and the waiting lines were so long, that I finally gave up and drove back to my hotel.

    Bill: I was driving through X-Town late at night on my way home from visiting relatives and was upset when I had to stop behind a big line of cars at a police checkpoint.  The police said they were looking for drunk drivers.

    Chad:  I stayed home all night because I read on social media that it was a big anniversary of the founding of X-Town, and I knew there would be tons of people out on the streets drinking and partying and I didn't want to deal with the huge crowds and loud noise.
    -------------------------------

    In each case, the 'eyewitnesses' of this particular time and place are providing independent accounts that confirm each other in only casual and unintentional ways.  Alex and Bill, being strangers, are totally unaware that the town they're passing through that particular night is holding a big 200th year celebration.  As far as Alex knows, the town just had a really active night-life...
    and since Bill is just driving through to get somewhere else, he doesn't even see or mention the crowds downtown but he does get stopped at a DUI-checkpoint, though he doesn't know why.  This is a small detail that confirms he really was in that area, because those kinds of police checkpoints are unusual unless the town knows there's going to be lots of drunk people out on the streets that particular night.
    and Chad of course, being the only local of the three witnesses, offers the explanation in his testimony, that the town is having a big anniversary party.

    All three individuals end up confirming each others testimony in unintentional ways.  Again, it's a crude example that probably doesn't do justice to the complexities of events in the New Testament... but anyways...


    So here is the next coincidence in the gospels, (trying to pick out the easiest ones to explain)

    Herod and his servants:

    ----------------------------
    At that time Herod the tetrarch heard about the fame of Jesus, and he said to his servants, "This is John the Baptist.  He has been raised from the dead;  that is why these miraculous powers are at work in him."
    - Matthew 14:1-2
    -----------------------------

    Here the author of the Gospel of Matthew is mentioning a seemingly private conversation between the provincial ruler Herod and his servants, regarding Herod's discomfort surrounding the rise of Jesus' ministry. 
    Next we turn to the Gospel of Luke:

    --------------------------------------
    Soon afterward he went on through the cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God.  And the twelve were with him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities:  Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.
    - Luke 8:1-3
    -------------------------------------------

    Notice that the above passage in Luke is not even about Herod.  It's talking about completely different events in the timeline, and yet this casual bit of information confirms how the author of Matthew was able to have an account of Herod's private discussion with his servants... because one of Jesus' followers was the wife of one of Herod's servants... Now we can understand how the author of the Gospel of Matthew could have been privy to a private conversation of the ruler Herod.

    Again, this is simply not the kind of pattern you find in embellished storytelling or mythmaking, yet it is exactly the type of pattern you find surrounding real events experienced by actual eyewitnesses.  One witness may uninentionally leave behind unanswered questions (details that aren't essential to the events they are recounting)... while another witness answers that question with a casual detail mentioned in a completely unrelated context.  This is a forensic signature usually only found when dealing with real witnesses to real events.

    from p.88-89 from Lydia McGrew's "Hidden in Plain View"
    ...The indirectness of this coincidence is particularly lovely.  Only one part of the puzzle is found in each Gospel, and the connection cannot possibly be the result of design.  It is beyond belief that Luke would have inserted this casual reference to Chuza in a list unconnected in any other way with Herod or with the beheading of John, in order to provide a convenient explanation for the detail about Herod's servants mentioned only in Matthew.  This coincidence provides clear evidence of the independence of Matthew and Luke and confirms both.


    I want to repeat that accepting this evidence does not mean automatically accepting the miracles and resurrection of Jesus.  But the evidence does show that the Gospels were written by actual independent eyewitnesses of Jesus during the time of his ministry who were recounting things truthfully to the best of their ability and recollection..  (again, signs of mythmaking or fraud-i.e. "getting their stories straight", would be obvious and contrary to the pattern of subtle and unintentional coincidences that we do find)

    So the skeptic, upon accepting the evidence before him, is stuck with the challenge of offering an explanation other than the simplest one that the evidence points to...
    (That the Gospels of Jesus Christ are true)


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26530493 - 03/12/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    The reason I asked what you consider proof, isn’t because I don’t know the definition.

    It’s a mental test. If you are able to say “this isn’t proof” , then you should be able to tell us what -would- work for you as a proof.

    Someone mentioned photographs not being available....... this would be a ridiculous ask for proof, considering the context. It indicates that this person may be unwilling to accept ANY evidence at all. That is not keeping with the attitude of a truth seeker. It does seem quite consistent with a desperate clinging to preconceived ideas, again, rather than honest inquiry into the validity of things.

    Yes, many times, debate is futile. No one actually changes their minds much, but for the sake of the argument, and desire to know the truth of things,  it is beneficial for both sides to try an handle the claims fairly.

    I’m not sure he can prove his whole case beyond a “reasonable doubt”, but I also don’t think anyone is laying out any real challenge to his premises or conclusions. Even my bias angle kinda sucks, and im not boned up on enough current arguments to want to raise a real challenge here.

    I don’t want to read the Bible to try and make up some ground. And I don’t want to google search for rebuttals yet... I am still waiting for his argument to move from mundane to divine. :smile:


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 1
        #26530538 - 03/12/20 09:11 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    Even within scientific research, there are thousands of “unprovens”, probably multi thousands of questions left unanswered if we extend our demands of proof to “beyond all possible doubt”.




    Indeed, depending on how hyper-skeptical one chooses to be... technically you cannot "prove" that you aren't a brain in a vat somewhere experiencing the illusion of a physical body in a Matrix-like simulation.

    If you want to doubt, no amount of proof will ever be enough.  Even the disciple Thomas, upon feeling the nailprints in the living resurrected Jesus' hands and spear-wound in his side, could have walked away doubting and reassuring himself it was all a crazy hallucination.  Instead he accepted the truth and bowed before his Lord and his God.

    Even when Jesus was performing miracles in broad daylight, the scribes and Pharisees explained it away as "demonic" power, and not power from God.  We can easily see that no amount of supernatural miracles would have been enough "proof" for the Jews who didn't want Jesus to be the Messiah Christ.

    I think this may be why Jesus was so mysterious about who he was.  He didn't march down the streets of Judea trumpeting that he was God in the flesh.  Instead he posed riddles and parables.  It was a way of casting off doubters, but those with "ears to hear" were invited into the mystery of his divinity. 

    Instead of Jesus proclaiming to his disciples "I'm the Son of God, you better follow me!" ... instead he posed the question: "Who do you say that I am?"


    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:It is safer to say that the gospel writers were contemporaries and wanted to relay those events accurately. Than it is to say, well, pretty much every early objection in this thread. I mean we started out with everyone assuming the Gospels were written well after the fact..... yet, no actual case has been made for that assumption.





    Indeed there has been a desperate rush to portray the Gospels as anonymous mythologies written long after the contemporaries of Jesus. (built on weak, flimsy cases at best)
    Just the idea that these were actual accounts of people following Jesus around Judea spooks the scholarly world because they know how difficult it is to explain away.  Jesus... a total enigma with no parallel in history.

    We always just fall back on philosophical or ideological commitments to materialism (there's no evidence for supernatural miracles, so the gospels can't possibly be true!) ....  even though the textual evidence itself strongly points towards the Gospels being actual independent eyewitness testimonies...  the truth is right there inviting us in if we really want it, but at the same time it is so easy to deny if we'd rather cover our eyes and not see it.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: psi]
        #26530590 - 03/12/20 09:50 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    psi said:
    It would make zero difference to me. Even if it was 100% fiction (and I do think he was a real historical person), I think the character is still a good role model.

    Assuming the stuff about eternal salvation and all that was true (which I strongly suspect it is not), I'm not sure trying to be a good person really "counts" in the same way if you're doing it out of self-interest. IMO you should try to be a decent person to others anyway, even if there is no bonus round after you die (which, again, I really doubt.)





    OP, any thoughts on my answer to your "what if"? Apologies if you responded and I didn't see it.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: psi]
        #26530658 - 03/12/20 10:18 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Self interest isn’t a proper justification for behaving ethically?

    Why not? Assuming a person is aware and able to choose between actions, Isn’t self interest at the root of most choices people make? Good, bad or indifferent?

    If a house was on fire, and you saw an exit sign... would you avoid taking the exit, simply because it is in your self interest to escape the building? Or, if a friend asked for a favor, and you were aware that his request would work out to also benefit you along with him, would you avoid doing the favor because of the problem of self interest negating a positive action?

    You also said you can accept that Jesus is a good role model, the problem with that is, he claimed to be more than just a good example for others. So, on at least a few of the gospel claims, it would seem that our good role model, or his biographers are delusional, lying or mistaken.

    Not trying to be combative, please don’t take it this way. I am willing to be corrected, especially if I am not understanding the reason you think self interest matters here.

    I won’t so easily let go of the concept of Jesus being a good role model, and a lying heretic at the same time. :cool:


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 2
        #26530673 - 03/12/20 10:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    I'm reminded of this C.S. Lewis quote about Jesus....

    Lunatic, Liar, or Lord:

    I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God."
    That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26530959 - 03/12/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    Self interest isn’t a proper justification for behaving ethically?

    Why not? Assuming a person is aware and able to choose between actions, Isn’t self interest at the root of most choices people make? Good, bad or indifferent?

    If a house was on fire, and you saw an exit sign... would you avoid taking the exit, simply because it is in your self interest to escape the building? Or, if a friend asked for a favor, and you were aware that his request would work out to also benefit you along with him, would you avoid doing the favor because of the problem of self interest negating a positive action?




    In the context of doing things in order to go to heaven and not hell, yeah I tend to think your motivations would matter, assuming those places do exist. I feel like your burning house example goes beyond anything I was talking about and doesn't really apply. I never suggested that people should never do anything out of self interest. But if self interest is the deciding factor for a given person between doing good acts or bad ones, I'd say it's questionable whether they really did good in the purest sense, especially if some deity really is keeping count.

    If someone's only reason for not stealing or killing was the law, and all of a sudden society collapsed and the law was no longer a concern, or circumstances arose in which they thought they could get away with those acts, does it really speak to their moral character that they didn't do them when they thought they would be punished?

    Quote:

    You also said you can accept that Jesus is a good role model, the problem with that is, he claimed to be more than just a good example for others. So, on at least a few of the gospel claims, it would seem that our good role model, or his biographers are delusional, lying or mistaken.

    Not trying to be combative, please don’t take it this way. I am willing to be corrected, especially if I am not understanding the reason you think self interest matters here.

    I won’t so easily let go of the concept of Jesus being a good role model, and a lying heretic at the same time. :cool:



    I have no problem picking and choosing the aspects that I believe ring true for me and the ones that don't. Jesus in particular is a figure I can relate to for cultural reasons. Could just as easily have been someone else in that role if I grew up somewhere else. If some of his advice was good and some bad, the bad really has no bearing on whether or not the good advice is good on its own. I don't believe the "good" stuff (to me) is good based on confidence in his authority.

    Additionally, I feel like the heaven and hell stuff may be good motivation for some people even if it's not true. Just as it's good that we have laws to keep people in check who would otherwise be doing a lot more evil (though the untruth part of the analogy doesn't carry over there).

    In the case that no deity is real, it's probably preferable that some people who would otherwise do evil do good believing a lie, even just for everyone else's safety. And in that situation I don't think the heresy criticism really applies.

    In the case that some other deity is real, Jesus's comments on the supernatural were heretical, and we will be punished for not guessing the correct religion, I feel like that deity is evil and we had little chance of pleasing them to begin with. So I default to trying to do what I think is good. On the off chance that some deity is real and there will be some accounting session after I die, I hopefully will have done my best to be a good person, and hopefully that will be good enough.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: psi] * 1
        #26531031 - 03/12/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    There’s a lot there. I had some stuff written, I deleted it, it was mostly agreeing with your view on accepting some of what Jesus said and rejecting others. I think that is sensible for evaluating any claims. Even Trump does or says good things now and again. but, if we assume everything he says/does is good based on a few examples..... we will be wearing MAGA hats soon enough.

    The rest was minutia and hair splitting over “pure intent”.

    I am curious how saved7 responds, you are bringing up “being good to get into heaven”, I think that’s a misunderstanding of the generally held Christian view of salvation.  Not by works, but by faith, etc etc etc. Meaning, I think we might be about to get an actual sermon. Lol


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: psi] * 2
        #26531074 - 03/12/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    psi said:
    Quote:

    psi said:
    It would make zero difference to me. Even if it was 100% fiction (and I do think he was a real historical person), I think the character is still a good role model.

    Assuming the stuff about eternal salvation and all that was true (which I strongly suspect it is not), I'm not sure trying to be a good person really "counts" in the same way if you're doing it out of self-interest. IMO you should try to be a decent person to others anyway, even if there is no bonus round after you die (which, again, I really doubt.)





    OP, any thoughts on my answer to your "what if"? Apologies if you responded and I didn't see it.




    I am hesitant to get into a theological debate here as it's off-topic, but since you asked...

    What exactly is this mysterious quality of "goodness" ?

    It makes me think of these words from Jesus:

    And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
    And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

    - Mark 10:17-18

    Some people claim the above verse as evidence against Jesus' divinity, and it appears that way at first glance, until you realize there is no actual denial in his response.  Jesus is challenging the questioner, almost 'trolling' him in a sense, daring him to make the logical connection. (see Mark 10:21)

    But anyways to your point... Sort of reframing the premise of your question... I don't believe there is any real distinction between 'Goodness' and God Himself.  The very act of wanting to do good things originates from our loving Creator.  Goodness is of God.  It is not any kind of separate human quality or attribute that can be located as a purely human act or expression.

    A person who really loves God, wants to do good to others.  That is the great commandment from Jesus... Love God and each other, to be servants for each other, just as the Creator of the universe became a suffering servant for us.

    Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
    He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
    In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
    Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
    Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

    - 1 John 4:7-11


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26531123 - 03/12/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Yeah if there is anything I have faith in it's a sense of "goodness" like you describe. So to the degree that the gospels line up with my sense of that, they ring true for me. The heaven and hell stuff and the question of Jesus' divinity (or that of any other purported deity) don't resonate with me as important considerations.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7] * 1
        #26531173 - 03/12/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Here is an example of an undesigned coincidence dealing with a miracle.  Again the same signature of truthful eyewitness testimony holds whether or not the events are miraculous or non-miraculous.


    What happened to Malchus's ear?

    In the Gospel of John chapter 18, we're given an account of the servants of the Jewish high priests coming to arrest Jesus in the garden, whereby his disciple Peter pulls out a sword and cuts off one of the servant's ears. (The Gospel of John alone gives the name of the servant: Malchus)

    ----------------------------
    Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”
    - John 18:10-11
    --------------------------

    After Jesus is arrested, he is taken by the Jews to be judged by the Roman governor Pontius Pilate. At this time, only the Roman empire had the authority to execute people, and the Jews were demanding that Jesus be found guilty.

    In a brief exchange, Jesus says this to Pilate:
    -------------------------
    Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
    - John 18:36
    --------------------------

    But think about this.  Just recently, one of Jesus' closest disciples slashed someone in the head with a sword with Jesus standing by.... yet now Jesus is claiming that his servants do not fight?

    The Jews could simply have produced Malchus and the bloody stump where his ear was sliced off by Peter.  Yet the Jews don't offer Malchus as any kind of evidence of violence in Jesus' movement.  This seems to be a glaring 'plot-hole' in the Gospel of John.

    It is only in the Gospel of Luke that we find the answer to this problem:

    ------------------------
    And when those who were around him saw what would follow, they said, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”  And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus said, “No more of this!” And he touched his ear and healed him.
    - Luke 22:49-51
    -------------------------

    Again, with these patterns of unintentional confirmations between different gospels, they defy claims of being embellished myths or frauds.  The author of the Gospel of John (probably John himself), while recounting the violent attack on Malchus, does not mention Jesus' miraculous healing of Malchus' ear because John may simply not have directly witnessed it in all the chaos and confusion.... yet the same author's account of Jesus' trial presents a situation where Malchus should have been produced as evidence that Jesus was leading a violent movement.

    Again, one witness is unintentionally resolving the puzzle pieces left open by another witness, the pattern we expect to find with real witnesses to real events, and opposite the pattern we expect from a fabricated story or embellished myth.

    from p.56-57 of Lydia McGrew's "Hidden in Plain View"

    Only Luke says that Jesus healed the servant's ear, though the Gospels of Matthew and Mark also recount that the ear was cut off.  Here again, the Gospel of Luke supplies a unique detail within a passage that is in some respects similar to the other Synoptic Gospels.  And here, too, this detail is confirmed by an undesigned coincidence.  If it is true that Jesus healed the servant's ear, it explains Jesus' words to Pilate, though those words are given only in the Gospel of John.  Jesus could confidently declare that his kingdom is not of this world and even say that his servants would be fighting if his kingdom were not peaceful.  If anyone tried to say that Peter cut off a servan't ear, the wounded servant himself could not be produced to show this, and an admission that Jesus healed the ear would be further evidence of Jesus' non-violent intentions, not to mention evidence of his miraculous abilities.  This undesigned coincidence thus confirms John's and Luke's separate accounts of the events of Jesus' passion and trial.
    I note here that the way in which Luke explains John involves a miracle... The Gospels tell of miracles in the same way in which they tell of other events.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


    Edited by saved7 (03/12/20 04:22 PM)


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    OfflineThe Influence
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26531498 - 03/12/20 06:23 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    So your just going to quote scripture and fill in the blanks as to why you think there are discrepancies?

    Remember your preaching to those that do not believe the scriptures are factual. I understand your trying to use them to convince someone (possibly yourself) that they are true; but mind you there are some hardcore skeptics out here.

    I have to ask why is the torah included in the bible if the gospels are against what god originally told his people? For example and eye for an eye? Jesus says to turn the other cheek. Did the almighty change his mind?


    Edited by The Influence (03/13/20 06:22 AM)


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
        #26532236 - 03/13/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    The Influence said:
    So your just going to quote scripture and fill in the blanks as to why you think there are discrepancies?

    Remember your preaching to those that do not believe the scriptures are factual. I understand your trying to use them to convince someone (possibly yourself) that they are true; but mind you there are some hardcore skeptics out here.




    No, I'm not asking anyone to believe the content of the scripture, but to understand that from an objective standpoint, the 4 Gospels, when compared with each other, display the same type of pattern as actual multiple eyewitness reports of real events... (and likewise the same structure defies the type of pattern we find with frauds, folklore, myths, etc.) ...  and you will find it is very difficult to find an explanation for this pattern other than the most simple and obvious one: that the Gospels of Jesus Christ are actually truthful eyewitness testimonies.

    These are the specific examples from the Gospels that I've presented so far:
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173

    Quote:

    The Influence said:I have to ask why is the torah included in the bible if the original text is against what god originally told his people? For example and eye for an eye? Jesus says to turn the other cheek. Did the almighty change his mind?




    Did He change his mind when Jesus seemingly replaced the entire Jewish temple/tabernacle system?  No, Jesus was the fulfillment of that system.  Like fruit from a tree or a baby from the womb.  It is at once a New creation, yet entirely dependent on the prepatory body before it.  And now instead of continual animal sacrifice for only temporary covering of sins, we have the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God.

    Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    - Matthew 27:50-51

    When Jesus died on the cross, the Jewish Temple veil was torn, and what was once concealed (the Most Holy Place and presence of God)... all people and all nations now have free access to through Jesus Christ.

    I'd be happy to explore this with you in another thread.  The relationship between the Old Testament and Jesus Christ is one of the most profound and mysterious subjects I know of, but it will easily overtake the current topic.

    (Btw, if you look at the source of the 'eye for an eye' phrase in Exodus 21, it's really much more about establishing and maintaining a system of equity and fairness, and nothing to do with seeking revenge as is often assumed... )  People tend to forget that Jesus went even more extreme than the Old Testament Law, like when he stated that hating your brother is just as bad as killing them. I don't think Jesus was criticizing the 'eye for an eye' code at all... he was saying that you should go even further.  Instead of simply striving for fairness and equality,  you should be willing to give more and more to your adversary.  ("if they want the coat off your back, give them two") ... because, as Jesus himself demonstrated on the cross, in total sacrifice there is total victory.

    For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
    - Matthew 16:25


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7] * 1
        #26534906 - 03/14/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Well, how could this possibly be proven to me?

    If somehow it was, I guess I'd be more likely to believe he was a magical person who could do magic/miracles. Still doesn't prove he has the spirit of the creator, or that a creator exists, etc.


    I'd also ask why he only showed himself to St. Paul, st. Christopher, and the others he's came to after leaving to get Christianity started.

    Why doesn't he strike me blind off MY horse? Why do *I* have to have faith when he proved himself to others?


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26535007 - 03/14/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    No, I'm not asking anyone to believe the content of the scripture, but to understand that from an objective standpoint, the 4 Gospels, when compared with each other, display the same type of pattern as actual multiple eyewitness reports of real events... (and likewise the same structure defies the type of pattern we find with frauds, folklore, myths, etc.) ...





    Maybe we should start a new topic on one of your other questions?

    Since, everyone already accepts saved7 argument presented here...


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26535356 - 03/14/20 06:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    No, I'm not asking anyone to believe the content of the scripture, but to understand that from an objective standpoint, the 4 Gospels, when compared with each other, display the same type of pattern as actual multiple eyewitness reports of real events... (and likewise the same structure defies the type of pattern we find with frauds, folklore, myths, etc.) ...





    Maybe we should start a new topic on one of your other questions?

    Since, everyone already accepts saved7 argument presented here...




    Really the evidence for the genuine historicity and eyewitness testimony of the 4 Gospels is overwhelming... 
    It's not so much that it proves the scriptures are true, but the evidence completely destroys any alternative explanation (fraud, myth, mass-hallucination, etc.) ...  The only explanation left standing is that Jesus Christ actually did rise from the dead.  But we don't want the truth, do we?... we want a new excuse to doubt so we can go on being the authorities over our own lives.

    This is a fantastic presentation by Timothy McGrew.. goes over all the little historical details that prove beyond a doubt that the Gospels were written in the time of Jesus' ministry, as well as all the subtle textual details (some of which I've provided) that show these were genuine eyewitness reports and could not possibly have been later embellished myths about Jesus or some kind of fraudulent conspiracy...

    The Gospels and Acts as History


    I'm considering making a new slide by slide thread on it..  though I'm understanding more and more that people do not actually care about evidence like they claim.  Because when you show them the evidence like they demanded... then they move the goalpost to something like the above poster... "If God is real, then he should perform a miracle for me now!"

    ... it reminds me of the mockers that watched Jesus hanging on the cross shouting "If he is the messiah let him save himself!"


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26535486 - 03/14/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    I don’t disagree with the data, I’ve seen it. I probably differ in the way I interpret the data at some points. I think a lot of people would, have you read Bart Ehrman?

    But, you are correct, most people, everywhere and in general, do not care much for knowing the truth. They settle for feeling and acting as if they already know everything. It’s easier that way.

    I am still amazed by how few of the posters here even understood WHAT case you were actually arguing. It seems they couldn’t help but to be sidetracked by assumptions they make about a god and religion they claim they don’t believe in. :shrug:

    I’m not a big fan of presuppositional thinking... but, man, sometimes I think they have a point. :smile:


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26535747 - 03/15/20 12:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    I'm noticing two things that bother me.  One is that there seems to be a common assumption that the gospels were written by the people they are named after.  Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  My understanding is that this is not the case, all were written down by other people who had the gospels told to them.

    Another is the common uses of "fiction" "fable" and "myth" interchangeably.  Anyone who confuses these three types of story has no business discussing theology.  Fiction is simply untrue, it's not a lie because it doesn't claim to be true.  A fable is a story used to teach a moral lesson.  Fables can be fiction but they can also be true stories, the point is that they teach a lesson.  The New Testament is clearly composed mostly of fables, that isn't a statement on it's truth or falsehood.  Myth is a sacred story, involving the gods.  It is not true or false in the way that a fictional story is false or a newspaper report is true.  Christians tend to insist that the Bible is not myth, which is why I could not be a Christian, if the bible is not sacred it is absolutely not worth following.  I honestly think this is because most Christians don't have even a basic understanding of theology, since they also tend to get offended if I equate it with a history book, which is what saved7 seems to be claiming the new testament is.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26536687 - 03/15/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    I don’t disagree with the data, I’ve seen it. I probably differ in the way I interpret the data at some points. I think a lot of people would, have you read Bart Ehrman?




    Yea, I think Timothy McGrew does a straightforward job of dismantling Bart Ehrman's arguments... and Ehrman is considered to be the best that the skeptical position has to offer.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26536817 - 03/15/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    I'm noticing two things that bother me.  One is that there seems to be a common assumption that the gospels were written by the people they are named after.  Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  My understanding is that this is not the case, all were written down by other people who had the gospels told to them.




    The Gospels of Matthew and John are most likely eyewitness reports of Matthew and John.  Mark and Luke are believed to have taken their accounts from other eyewitnesses.

    The thing is though, if you've been following this thread, it doesn't even matter as much who the authors are because of the objective struture of the narratives themselves.. the interplay of details between the four Gospels are consistent with a pattern of actual multiple eyewitness testimony, and directly opposed to fraud or mythmaking.


    Quote:

    Babylon said:Another is the common uses of "fiction" "fable" and "myth" interchangeably.  Anyone who confuses these three types of story has no business discussing theology.  Fiction is simply untrue, it's not a lie because it doesn't claim to be true.  A fable is a story used to teach a moral lesson.  Fables can be fiction but they can also be true stories, the point is that they teach a lesson.  The New Testament is clearly composed mostly of fables, that isn't a statement on it's truth or falsehood.  Myth is a sacred story, involving the gods.  It is not true or false in the way that a fictional story is false or a newspaper report is true.  Christians tend to insist that the Bible is not myth, which is why I could not be a Christian, if the bible is not sacred it is absolutely not worth following.  I honestly think this is because most Christians don't have even a basic understanding of theology, since they also tend to get offended if I equate it with a history book, which is what saved7 seems to be claiming the new testament is.




    Not really sure what you're trying to say here, but the historicity of the Gospels (and Acts) can be clearly demonstrated.  Feel free to watch the Timothy McGrew presentation I posted above if you doubt this.(I really should make a separate thread on it)  The Gospel authors get numerous "hard" historical details correct that would only be available to people who were actually in those places and having those interactions at that specific time in history... and again, these are accounts from four different points of view that confirm each other in the kind of subtle and unintentional ways that only real eyewitness reporting does.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    OfflineBabylon
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26536827 - 03/15/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    I'm noticing two things that bother me.  One is that there seems to be a common assumption that the gospels were written by the people they are named after.  Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  My understanding is that this is not the case, all were written down by other people who had the gospels told to them.




    The Gospels of Matthew and John are most likely eyewitness reports of Matthew and John.  Mark and Luke are believed to have taken their accounts from other eyewitnesses.

    The thing is though, if you've been following this thread, it doesn't even matter as much who the authors are because of the objective struture of the narratives themselves.. the interplay of details between the four Gospels are consistent with a pattern of actual multiple eyewitness testimony, and directly opposed to fraud or mythmaking.





    It matters quite a bit, an eyewitness account is considerably more accurate than a retelling of an eyewitness account.  There's also the issue of translation to be considered.  King James, who commisioned the most commonly used English translation of the bible, had clear political reasons for his translation, and he put Shakespeare, someone who had no problem embellishing historical accounts and turning them into entertainment, in charge of the project.

    Quote:



    Quote:

    Babylon said:Another is the common uses of "fiction" "fable" and "myth" interchangeably.  Anyone who confuses these three types of story has no business discussing theology.  Fiction is simply untrue, it's not a lie because it doesn't claim to be true.  A fable is a story used to teach a moral lesson.  Fables can be fiction but they can also be true stories, the point is that they teach a lesson.  The New Testament is clearly composed mostly of fables, that isn't a statement on it's truth or falsehood.  Myth is a sacred story, involving the gods.  It is not true or false in the way that a fictional story is false or a newspaper report is true.  Christians tend to insist that the Bible is not myth, which is why I could not be a Christian, if the bible is not sacred it is absolutely not worth following.  I honestly think this is because most Christians don't have even a basic understanding of theology, since they also tend to get offended if I equate it with a history book, which is what saved7 seems to be claiming the new testament is.




    Not really sure what you're trying to say here, but the historicity of the Gospels (and Acts) can be clearly demonstrated.  Feel free to watch the Timothy McGrew presentation I posted above if you doubt this.(I really should make a separate thread on it)  The Gospel authors get numerous "hard" historical details correct that would only be available to people who were actually in those places and having those interactions at that specific time in history... and again, these are accounts from four different points of view that confirm each other in the kind of subtle and unintentional ways that only real eyewitness reporting does.




    Those details are available to you, you were not in those places at those times.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26536877 - 03/15/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:It matters quite a bit, an eyewitness account is considerably more accurate than a retelling of an eyewitness account.




    It really doesn't matter if the eyewitness himself put pen to paper or simply orally dictated it to a scribe. Otherwise there are a lot of court stenographers that are out of a job.

    Quote:

    Babylon said:There's also the issue of translation to be considered.  King James, who commisioned the most commonly used English translation of the bible, had clear political reasons for his translation, and he put Shakespeare, someone who had no problem embellishing historical accounts and turning them into entertainment, in charge of the project.




    What is the actual argument you're making?  Shakespeare made things up so we shouldn't trust the Gospels?

    You can read through these arguments on 'undesigned coincidences' in the Gospels I've presented in this thread so far and challenge them if you want:
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    Those details are available to you, you were not in those places at those times.




    They didn't have wikipedia in the 1st century AD.


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    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    OfflineBabylon
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26536896 - 03/15/20 03:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    You can read through these arguments on 'undesigned coincidences' in the Gospels I've presented in this thread so far and challenge them if you want:
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173






    I don't trust those experts methodology, they are comparing eyewitnesses who are telling the truth to folks who are coordinating their story and lying, these are not the only possibilities.  You keep insisting that there are no commonalities with folklore or mythology but if you spend any time with story tellers it's pretty clear that you end up with pretty much these exact type of discrepancies if a story is retold by multiple people who heard the same story. The similarities with mythology (analyzed pretty heavily by the zeitgeist folks) are everywhere.  It is those similarities that have allowed me to incorporate Christianity into my own spirituality, but if I try to think of the new testament as a historical account, rather than mythology, it simply looks implausible. 

    I suppose in other words, in answer to your initial question, if the gospels were proven true, in the way you are attempting to prove them, that would cause me to move further away from Christianity and keep it entirely out of my spirituality.  This is dependent on certain uses of the words prove and true.  What you seem to be attempting to prove is that the gospels are eyewitness accounts, proving that would make Christianity less appealing to me.  Proving that Christ's message in the gospels is indeed the word of God, and that Christ was indeed the messiah involves an entirely different sort of proof, and it is that that would convince me to abandon Paganism and embrace Christ as my lord and Savior, rather than as one form of the dying god, as I currently do.


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    InvisibleShr00mEater
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26536912 - 03/15/20 04:02 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Hm. On your last point.

    I suppose his case here has made you less interested in Christianity then?
    Behold! The powers of argumentation!  :cool:

    How early are you dating the earliest gospel?


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26536930 - 03/15/20 04:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    You can read through these arguments on 'undesigned coincidences' in the Gospels I've presented in this thread so far and challenge them if you want:
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173




    I don't trust those experts methodology,




    You don't have to trust anything.  Come up with a better explanation for the data if you have one.

    Quote:

    Babylon said:if you spend any time with story tellers it's pretty clear that you end up with pretty much these exact type of discrepancies if a story is retold by multiple people who heard the same story.




    No, the pattern we find in the four Gospels (of which I've provided specific examples) is exactly the opposite of what one expects in storytelling.

    Casual comments, allusions, and omissions that fit together are not what one would find in different fictional or fictionalized works written by different people.  They are also not to be expected among different legendary stories that grew up gradually long after the events.  They are the sort of thing that one gets in real witness testimony from people close-up to real events.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26536932 - 03/15/20 04:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    You can read through these arguments on 'undesigned coincidences' in the Gospels I've presented in this thread so far and challenge them if you want:
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173




    I don't trust those experts methodology,




    You don't have to trust anything.  Come up with a better explanation for the data if you have one.

    Quote:

    Babylon said:if you spend any time with story tellers it's pretty clear that you end up with pretty much these exact type of discrepancies if a story is retold by multiple people who heard the same story.




    No, the pattern we find in the four Gospels (of which I've provided specific examples) is exactly the opposite of what one expects in storytelling.

    Casual comments, allusions, and omissions that fit together are not what one would find in different fictional or fictionalized works written by different people.  They are also not to be expected among different legendary stories that grew up gradually long after the events.  They are the sort of thing that one gets in real witness testimony from people close-up to real events.




    I didn't say stories made up by different people.  I said retelling of a single story told to different people.  Those two scenarios create different sorts of discrepancy


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    OfflineBabylon
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26536943 - 03/15/20 04:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    Hm. On your last point.

    I suppose his case here has made you less interested in Christianity then?
    Behold! The powers of argumentation!  :cool:

    How early are you dating the earliest gospel?





    Nah, it's pretty typical of Christians, insisting that the bible is a historical document and not accepting that makes it less credible than mythology not more.  They're trying to convert atheists, without being rigourous enough with their methods. 

    The earliest gospel was written about 65 AD, so more than 30 years after Christ's death. 

    I feel like saved7 and other Christians who feel that presenting the bible as a historical document makes it more convincing should read more historical documents and look at how they tend to be distorted for political reasons and the ways they tend to be inaccurate.  Just reading the local newspaper, which I know is written by honest people who I trust, and observing how wrong they get stories that I have been a personal witness to has taught me a lot about trusting historical documents.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26536992 - 03/15/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    I didn't say stories made up by different people.  I said retelling of a single story told to different people.  Those two scenarios create different sorts of discrepancy




    .... which is the skeptics' position I've been addressing this entire thread...

    And again, it is precisely these particular types of discrepancies (undesigned coincidences) that refute the claim of a legend or myth of Jesus embellished by different storytellers over time.  When you're ready to deal with the specific data, let me know.


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    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26537968 - 03/16/20 06:36 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    The earliest gospel was written about 65 AD, so more than 30 years after Christ's death. 





    Probably untrue.  That is what scholars believe, but they have no evidence for it... or I should say, their "evidence" relies on a presupposition that the gospels are false.

    This is the basic reasoning:

    "It was probably written c. AD 66–70, during Nero's persecution of the Christians in Rome or the Jewish revolt, as suggested by internal references to war in Judea and to persecution." - wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark

    Jesus, in the gospels, foretold about the coming destruction of Jerusalem. (His prediction would have been made around the year 30 AD)

    Jerusalem is destroyed in 70 AD following several years of violent Jewish revolts against Rome.

    Since the academic world believes that Jesus couldn't have known about the coming destruction to Jerusalem,  they are ideologically bound to push the dates of the gospels up to the time when the violence and destruction began to play out.  To do otherwise would be to consider the possibility that Jesus's prophecy about Jerusalem was fulfilled within a generation.  Yikes, we can't have that!

    And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
    And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    - Mark 13:1-2


    Anyways, as mentioned, the specific gospel dates don't matter so much.  (They were definitely written within the lifetimes of Jesus' disciples)
    What matters is that they exhibit the important characteristics of being truthful eyewitness testimonies, as has been demonstrated.


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    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: CMACD]
        #26538871 - 03/16/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    CMACD said:
    Well, how could this possibly be proven to me?

    If somehow it was, I guess I'd be more likely to believe he was a magical person who could do magic/miracles. Still doesn't prove he has the spirit of the creator, or that a creator exists, etc.


    I'd also ask why he only showed himself to St. Paul, st. Christopher, and the others he's came to after leaving to get Christianity started.

    Why doesn't he strike me blind off MY horse? Why do *I* have to have faith when he proved himself to others?




    The gods have shown themselves to me, which makes proving that Christ is not only god, but the only god, that much more difficult, but I agree with you that it would take a miracle, not an academic arguement, to convert me.


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26540259 - 03/17/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    Quote:

    CMACD said:
    Well, how could this possibly be proven to me?

    If somehow it was, I guess I'd be more likely to believe he was a magical person who could do magic/miracles. Still doesn't prove he has the spirit of the creator, or that a creator exists, etc.


    I'd also ask why he only showed himself to St. Paul, st. Christopher, and the others he's came to after leaving to get Christianity started.

    Why doesn't he strike me blind off MY horse? Why do *I* have to have faith when he proved himself to others?




    The gods have shown themselves to me, which makes proving that Christ is not only god, but the only god, that much more difficult, but I agree with you that it would take a miracle, not an academic arguement, to convert me.




    Nobody is converted by an academic argument.  The academic argument shows the evidence pointing, overwhelmingly, to the truth of Jesus Christ as recorded in the gospels.  This shows it is not for a lack of evidence that we reject it (as we like to claim), but something else... ideology, or our heart...

    As far as miracles being proof... proof of what?  Why couldn't you simply claim that Jesus was using demonic power like the Pharisees did?  If the scriptures are true, than God gave a lot of proof... divine miraculous interventions, yet His people rejected Him almost immediately afterwards. 

    Have you ever considered the possibility that your Creator knows the condition of your heart a lot better than you do?

    The way Jesus acted, actually lends a lot of weight to this idea.  He concealed his identity in riddles and parables and mysteries.  When he did perform a miracle, he commanded the witness to "tell no one"...  When his followers desired to know who he was, even then Jesus was reserved about it.. asking "Who do you say that I am?" , inviting them into the mystery of him being God in the flesh.

    When Jesus referred to "ears to hear" he was saying you could have the truth presented to you, and still reject it.  The Pharisees could see a permanently crippled man rise from hid bed and walk away, and still deny him.

    The evidence can lead you right up to the edge of the truth, and then you have to accept it, not with your senses, but in your heart.  Jesus is "the way" into our heart... when we accept Jesus as our Lord, we simultaneously come to the realization of just how much we've rebelled against our Creator and how desperately we need someone to save us... and that thing that once seemed really weird a kooky about Jesus "pouring out his blood" to cover our sins, suddenly becomes the most beautiful thing ever.

    When the Jews demanded Jesus give him a "sign" or proof of his divine authority, he answered that no sign would be given except for the "sign of Jonah"...  The ending act of the Old Testament Book of Jonah is all about an amazing mass conversion of a non-Jewish kingdom (Nineveh)... it seems more than a coincidence that this unknown crucified criminal from the ancient middle-east quickly became the symbol of divine salvation among non-Jewish kingdoms across the entire world.  Do you really believe it's all a mere coincidence of history?


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26540279 - 03/17/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Non-Jewish kingdoms?
    You went from religious babbling to bigoted rambling in one sentence.

    Btw, Jesus isn’t a symbol of salvation around the world lol. Most western countries are turned off by Christianity and the rest of the world has their own religions...many of which are much older and more prevalent in those places than Christianity is in the US.

    You got this way of being pompous while not directly saying anything offensive. I think it’s very non-Jewish of you.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26540374 - 03/17/20 09:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:Btw, Jesus isn’t a symbol of salvation around the world lol.




    He obviously is. 
    Belief in eternal salvation at the cross of Jesus Christ is extremely widespread across the world.  Doesn't mean you have to take it as proof of anything, but when you can't even concede basic uncontested facts about a subject, then it's clear you aren't here for an honest discussion, isn't it?  So what are you here for?


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    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26540412 - 03/17/20 09:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    It is not “a source of salvation around the world

    In fact, it has been the source of pain and misery in the same places where it’s prevalent.

    The number of Christians is BARELY larger than the number of Muslims, and very concentrated in the WESTERN world.



    Clearly, Christianity is only popular in places that were forced into it via the Crusades and colonialism, though the last one didn’t always work.


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26540415 - 03/17/20 09:50 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    It’s not like you said Jesus is popular around the world. Cause I’d agree with that. But “a source of salvation”? Naaw


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26540814 - 03/17/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    Clearly, Christianity is only popular in places that were forced into it via the Crusades and colonialism, though the last one didn’t always work.




    Keep digging and you might discover that history didn't begin in the middle ages.


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    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26540826 - 03/17/20 01:45 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Keep ignoring the bulk of my poasts and focusing on the tiny bits that are debatable.

    How does it matter when it began? That does nothing to deter my point...


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26540931 - 03/17/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Nothing probably will either...

    ... that’s the way arguing goes most of the time. :shrug:


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26540950 - 03/17/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    It’s called critical thinking.
    It doesn’t have to be a tangible subject matter. He just needs to construct a logical argument that concludes he’s right...or that I’m wrong.

    That’s the way debating goes most of the time:shrug:


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26541247 - 03/17/20 05:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Bet ya dollars to donuts you’re both wrong.

    I know this for a fact, since I am always right. :grin:


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    OfflineBabylon
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26541528 - 03/17/20 08:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    Quote:

    CMACD said:
    Well, how could this possibly be proven to me?

    If somehow it was, I guess I'd be more likely to believe he was a magical person who could do magic/miracles. Still doesn't prove he has the spirit of the creator, or that a creator exists, etc.


    I'd also ask why he only showed himself to St. Paul, st. Christopher, and the others he's came to after leaving to get Christianity started.

    Why doesn't he strike me blind off MY horse? Why do *I* have to have faith when he proved himself to others?




    The gods have shown themselves to me, which makes proving that Christ is not only god, but the only god, that much more difficult, but I agree with you that it would take a miracle, not an academic arguement, to convert me.




    Nobody is converted by an academic argument.  The academic argument shows the evidence pointing, overwhelmingly, to the truth of Jesus Christ as recorded in the gospels.  This shows it is not for a lack of evidence that we reject it (as we like to claim), but something else... ideology, or our heart...

    As far as miracles being proof... proof of what?  Why couldn't you simply claim that Jesus was using demonic power like the Pharisees did?  If the scriptures are true, than God gave a lot of proof... divine miraculous interventions, yet His people rejected Him almost immediately afterwards. 

    Have you ever considered the possibility that your Creator knows the condition of your heart a lot better than you do?

    The way Jesus acted, actually lends a lot of weight to this idea.  He concealed his identity in riddles and parables and mysteries.  When he did perform a miracle, he commanded the witness to "tell no one"...  When his followers desired to know who he was, even then Jesus was reserved about it.. asking "Who do you say that I am?" , inviting them into the mystery of him being God in the flesh.

    When Jesus referred to "ears to hear" he was saying you could have the truth presented to you, and still reject it.  The Pharisees could see a permanently crippled man rise from hid bed and walk away, and still deny him.

    The evidence can lead you right up to the edge of the truth, and then you have to accept it, not with your senses, but in your heart.  Jesus is "the way" into our heart... when we accept Jesus as our Lord, we simultaneously come to the realization of just how much we've rebelled against our Creator and how desperately we need someone to save us... and that thing that once seemed really weird a kooky about Jesus "pouring out his blood" to cover our sins, suddenly becomes the most beautiful thing ever.

    When the Jews demanded Jesus give him a "sign" or proof of his divine authority, he answered that no sign would be given except for the "sign of Jonah"...  The ending act of the Old Testament Book of Jonah is all about an amazing mass conversion of a non-Jewish kingdom (Nineveh)... it seems more than a coincidence that this unknown crucified criminal from the ancient middle-east quickly became the symbol of divine salvation among non-Jewish kingdoms across the entire world.  Do you really believe it's all a mere coincidence of history?




    So if he said to tell no one, why are you telling people?  You seem to be going specifically against Christ's instructions here.  As far as what sort of miracle I mean one directed specifically at me.  Written accounts of miracles that happened more than 2000 years ago are not very convincing, especcially in a book that has been translated specifically for political purposes.  If god does not think I am ready to believe than nothing you say is likely to make me believe, do you really consider yourself more able to convince people than your god is? 

    And no, I don't think it is a coincidence, as I said before I believe Christ is an incarnation of the dying god.  Also known as John Barleycorn, Osiris and many other names.  You are the one insisting the bible is not mythology, that it is simply the factual retelling of the life of a Jewish criminal.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26542604 - 03/18/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    So if he said to tell no one, why are you telling people?




    Jesus clearly wanted to conceal his true identity and power to some degree, at least until his work was finished.  It was usually after performing healing miracles that he instructed the person to not tell anyone what he had done. 

    And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
    And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.
    And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.
    And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;
    And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way

    - Mark 1:40-44


    It seems there were at least two reasons for this.  Jesus did not want crowds of people clamoring after him in order to catch a glimpse of some amazing sight... (the way reporters might scramble for a picture of an elusive celebrity)...  He didn't want people running to him because they wanted to see cool magic tricks.

    Jesus always responded to faith, the various individuals who hand't even met him before, yet they perceived his righteousness and believed in him. To these, Jesus gave everything.  Not because they had seen miracles, but because of their faith.
    His entire ministry was like this.  Jesus concealed his identity from the doubtful and disbelieving, yet revealed himself and his power to those who believed.

    Everything about his outward public appearance seemed mundanely human... just look at the way he died... mocked, beaten, humiliated and nailed to a cross... a death reserved for lowly slaves of the Roman empire.  Could there be a more "un-divine" or ungodly presentation than that?  And yet, paradoxically, it is this lowly bloody slave-death that becomes the symbol of heavenly conquest and liberation from evil. 

    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

    - 1 Corinthians 1:27-28

    Another reason for Jesus' concealment is that it was not the right time for him to be fully revealed.  His 'hour' had not yet come.

    And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
    And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
    And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
    Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

    - John 2:1-4

    Jesus was speaking in a kind of riddle here.  What did the request of "new wine" have to do with his hour not coming?  It is left purposefully unexplained.  Jesus almost seems to 'troll' people like this...  saying things that sound outwardly foolish or senseless, yet concealed within is a great hidden truth.


    And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
    And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
    And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
    For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
    And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
    For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
    And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


    - Luke 22:13-20


    It reminds me of a similar style of concealment you'll find in the Bible, where the truth is revealed in quite unexpected ways.


    ...And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
    Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
    And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
    And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
    ....And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
    Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

    - Acts ch.1

    You'll see these kinds of 'inside jokes' in the Bible.. where people mocking Jesus or his followers, ironically tell the truth.  Here the targets of mockery actually are "full of new wine"... not that they've been drinking, but the same new "wine" that Jesus riddled to his mother at the wedding, and the same cup of "wine" that was poured out to cover sins (speaking of course of his blood on the cross)

    Another familiar instance of this type of 'ironic truth' is when the Roman soldiers nail a sign over Jesus' head on the cross.

    And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
    And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
    And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.
    And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
    ....And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

    - Matthew ch.27

    In their mockery they are ironically proclaiming a great truth.  They are laughing at the idea of Jesus being a king, dressing him with the robe and crown of thorns, and yet as they killed Jesus, they were unknowingly crowning him as the ultimate King of all creation, to who belongs all glory and power and dominion, forever.


    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    You seem to be going specifically against Christ's instructions here.  As far as what sort of miracle I mean one directed specifically at me.  Written accounts of miracles that happened more than 2000 years ago are not very convincing,




    And yet, if you really study the subject, the best explanation for how we have the Gospels today is that Jesus really did those things,  that he really rose from the dead and left behind an empty tomb.  Every other explanation (fraud, myth, hallucination, etc.) fierecely resists the evidence and crumbles under the weight of logical arguments to the contrary.  The only explanation that makes sense is that people really did directly witness these events and were so moved to memorialize them.

    Again, the unrelenting truth of Jesus Christ opens up to those who want it.  If you seek to doubt, then you can assure yourself with some baseless talking point (like the one below) and walk away believing whatever you want.

    Other readers will hear the truth of Jesus Christ in these words, even if they don't fully understand what it all means.  That's how I came to know the truth.  I began to hear it in verses from the New Testament that I stumbled into online.  Then I believed.  I accepted Jesus Christ into my heart and instantly felt an overwhelming change within me... the phrase being "born again" that I had always laughed at.  Whereas I was blind, now I see.

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    especcially in a book that has been translated specifically for political purposes.



     
    The four gospels of Matthew,Mark,Luke,John have gone essentially unchanged since the 1st century when they were written, despite many translations into other languages. 
    That is what all the evidence shows...
    But the evidence doesn't really matter, right?  We're just looking for any excuse to deny and doubt.  I could show you several hours of in depth detailed lectures proving, empirically, that the gospels of Jesus Christ are some of the best historical biographies ever known, and it won't matter.  At that point, you'll just shift the goalposts and demand a miracle.

    This is not about evidence.  It's about our hearts.  And accepting Jesus means simultaneously accepting that we are rebels against God in need of a savior.  It means we don't get to play master of our own lives anymore.  So we look for any excues to doubt...


    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    And no, I don't think it is a coincidence, as I said before I believe Christ is an incarnation of the dying god.  Also known as John Barleycorn, Osiris and many other names. 




    I suggest watching this.  If I recall it's a pretty devestating rebuttal to the popular "Zeitgeist" film that came out awhile ago that tried to debunk Christianity and claim Jesus was just another variation on ancient mythology.

    "Zeitgeist DEBUNKED by Chris White"


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    OfflineBabylon
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26543561 - 03/18/20 09:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    You realize Zeitgeist is why I accept Christ?  Convince me that he is NOT an incarnation of the dying god and he becomes simply a Jewish Criminal.  JHVH has never spoken to me, but other gods have, and it will take far more than a fairly weak academic arguement to convince me that they are not something that should be worshiped.


    Edited by Babylon (03/18/20 09:54 PM)


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon] * 1
        #26544037 - 03/19/20 07:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    OP just likes to repeat over and over “there is undeniable proof, empirical evidence, blah” without actually providing any evidence.


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    OfflineBabylon
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26544086 - 03/19/20 07:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    OP just likes to repeat over and over “there is undeniable proof, empirical evidence, blah” without actually providing any evidence.





    He's got perfectly good logic, but he keeps insisting on expert analysis and doesn't realize we don't trust his experts.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26544117 - 03/19/20 08:02 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    You realize Zeitgeist is why I accept Christ?  Convince me that he is NOT an incarnation of the dying god and he becomes simply a Jewish Criminal.  JHVH has never spoken to me, but other gods have, and it will take far more than a fairly weak academic arguement to convince me that they are not something that should be worshiped.




    And a great many religions and cults have been started from private visions like what you claim. 

    The difference with Jesus Christ of the New Testament is that he alone has the enigmatic witness of history.  There is no other phenomenon like the Gospels in other belief systems.  These are multiple cross-confirming historical eyewitness accounts that defy alternative explanations of fraud or myth. 

    And people went to their deaths, not for a belief-system or ideology (which people of many faiths have done and still do today), but the early Christians risked their lives swearing they had directly witnessed these things in the flesh, with their own eyes.... Such a critical distinction to understand.

    Really, the fact that a relatively unknown and executed Jewish criminal is now widely regarded as Lord and Savior of the world who we reference everytime we enter the current date... and that Jesus himself, speaking of the Sign of Jonah, predicted that his death would lead to his truth being spread out to the non-Jewish world...  The more you look at the evidence, the more you will start to realize that it takes more faith to doubt it than to simply accept the truth that Jesus really did rise from the dead.


    And a gnostic-style Christ separate from the crucified and resurrected flesh and blood one is no Christ at all.  The blood he shed for us on the cross meant everything... eternal life.

    For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
    Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    - 1 Corinthians 1:22-25


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26544133 - 03/19/20 08:08 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    So the Jews asked for empirical evidence, the Greeks asked to explain using logic, and Christians went “naw, fuck that, you just gotta believe cause god is amaaaazing”? Got it.

    The more you say shit like “non-Jewish world”, the more I realize you have multiple agendas here. Dunno why I’d expect any different.


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26544276 - 03/19/20 09:29 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    So the Jews asked for empirical evidence, the Greeks asked to explain using logic, and Christians went “naw, fuck that, you just gotta believe cause god is amaaaazing”? Got it.




    ... and all the evidence you don't want to deal with... specifically the lack of alternative explanation for the Gospels other than that they're simply true.

    There's a reason other religions don't all have their own versions of the New Testament with the same type of multi-witness account phenomena and associated carrying forth by martyrdom.  Jesus Christ is a one-of-the-kind enigma in all of history... as far as religious claims go, it's a blaring signal amidst a field of relative white noise. Try opening your heart to the possibility that it's true.

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:The more you say shit like “non-Jewish world”, the more I realize you have multiple agendas here. Dunno why I’d expect any different.




    When I say that I mean "plus" the non-Jewish world(or gentiles)... It's not meant as a negative slant on Jewish people.

    An interesting (and seemingly very 'human') thing about ancient Judaism is that they appeared to put so much emphasis on themselves as an ethnic group for its own sake.. yet if you read the Jewish Old Testament, it's clearly stated that their eventual savior King was going to be a savior to the whole world.... all nations, all tongues, all people, to the ends of the earth.... and that ancient Israel was meant for a kind of 'springboard' to that destiny.... a front-runner, a messenger running to the nations with the good news. 

    Just as Joseph was thrown into a pit by his brothers and ultimately exalted to rule the kingdom of Egypt, so Jesus was thrown into the grave by his Jewish brethren, and ultimately exalted to rule the Earth.  The Bible is the same story told over and over again at different scales. It is fractal.  It's quite amazing if you take the time to get into it.


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    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26544292 - 03/19/20 09:37 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    ... and all the evidence you don't want to deal with... specifically the lack of alternative explanation for the Gospels other than that they're simply true.

    There's a reason other religions don't all have their own versions of the New Testament with the same type of multi-witness account phenomena and associated carrying forth by martyrdom.  Jesus Christ is a one-of-the-kind enigma in all of history... as far as religious claims go, it's a blaring signal amidst a field of relative white noise. Try opening your heart to the possibility that it's true.




    Think about what you’re saying here.

    First off, “lack of alternative explanations” is NOT proof of anything. Secondly, there are many. The main one being that the writers used each other’s work as reference.

    There are religions based on facts and logic, but Christianity isn’t one of them. You prove this by asking people to “let Jesus into your heart”, instead of asking them to review evidence.

    You start by putting faith in something, then go on to try and prove it. That’s called bias and it’s why you continue to insist you have proof.

    Idk what happens when we die. But I know you have no Proof that we go to heaven/hell like the Bible says.
    Idk if it’s possible to turn water to wine. But I know you don’t have proof someone has done so.

    Can you say the same? A logical person must be able to say “I don’t know what happens after I die”.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26546948 - 03/20/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    First off, “lack of alternative explanations” is NOT proof of anything.





    Right, even if you saw with your own eyes, Jesus crucified and rise from the dead, you could tell yourself that he was a super advanced alien being with regenerative properties, some cosmic trickster...  not necessarily the presence of the God of the Bible.  There's always a way to doubt if you want to doubt badly enough.

    The question is, where does all the evidence lead?  And this case, it is pointing towards the conclusion that the gospels are true, that people really did witness the things they wrote about concerning Jesus.

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    Secondly, there are many. The main one being that the writers used each other’s work as reference.





    And using specific examples, I've demonstrated why that almost certainly is not the case.  The 4 gospels contain many subtle omissions and casual confirmations of each other in a style we only find with truthful multiple-eyewitness reporting.  This is the opposite of what we'd expect from a derivative or embellished work of fiction.

    I'm finding more and more that skeptics really aren't concerned about evidence like they claim to be.  It seems to be all about falling back on a handful of dismissive talking points that can't withstand the slightest bit of scrutiny.


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    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26546950 - 03/20/20 03:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Lol OF COURSE I’d believe it if I saw it with my own eyes.

    Shit, I’d believe it if I saw actual proof.
    But a lack of proof is not proof, like I said before....


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26547084 - 03/20/20 04:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    Lol OF COURSE I’d believe it if I saw it with my own eyes.





    Really? That's all it takes? People see "magic" tricks with their own eyes all the time, you know.  I think you should put some more thought into that response.

    The evidence will only take you so far.  The ancient Israelites witnessed miracle after miracle and still many of them turned their hearts away from God.  Accepting the truth, ultimately, is not about weighing empirical evidence.  (though evidence is very important)

    You can be shown all the demonstrable evidence (I've shown you some in this thread) that consistently points to the gospels being actual eyewitness accounts and not works of fiction or fraud as is popularly claimed.

    The real proof comes when you finally accept Jesus into your heart and find yourself born again at the foot of the Cross. 
    And this is coming from someone who laughed at Christians and the Bible for most of his life.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    OfflineThe Influence
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26547131 - 03/20/20 04:54 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    No one knows who exactly wrote the gospels....there is no definitive proof. There are discrepancies in the gospels, and that is a point of contention, not of agreement that because there are some discrepancies the gospels must be right. What kind of logic is that?

    Anytime someone has used the scripture to question you, you give another way that scripture could be interpreted. But who are you to interpret what has been re-worded multiple times.

    Have you studied the original copy of the gospels? Because being re-written and translated could cause some huge leaps in interpretation.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
        #26547232 - 03/20/20 05:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    The Influence said:
    There are discrepancies in the gospels, and that is a point of contention,




    Not just that there are discrepancies, but the extremely specific way that they fill in gaps across multiple gospels. 

    For example: (I gave others in the thread with specific verses)  in one gospel we are privy to the private conversations of the ruler Herod, with no expalanation, and in another gospel we have no mention of Herod's conversation, yet a casual comment in totally different context mentions that one of Jesus' follower's husbands was a servant for Herod (and thus could have overheard private conversations in his inner chambers)

    obviously if it were just a few instances of that kind of "undesigned coincidence" across the gospels, you could chalk it up to happenstance, but there are lots of them all over the gospel narrative. 

    And it's precisely the signature we find in truthful testimony given from mulitple witnesses.  one witness will casually mention many details, without necessarily giving an explanation for them... and a different witness will likewise end up explaining the other witness's details without mentioning the details themselves.

    It's not the easiest thing to wrap your head around at first glane (read it over a few times), but once you really think about it, the fact of it is staring you right in the face.  And that's the same forensic pattern we find among the 4 gospels... throughout the entire account of the ministry of Jesus, miracles and all. 


    Quote:

    The Influence said:
    not of agreement that because there are some discrepancies the gospels must be right. What kind of logic is that?





    the particular style of discrepancies that I described, yes.  I think it is sound logic.

    On the other hand, think about how fraudulent it would look if the gospels all copied each other nearly identically.  It would be immediately recognizable as a fabrication, as different witnesses never have the same testimonies when it comes to recalling all the details.


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    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26547779 - 03/20/20 10:58 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    On the other hand, think about how fraudulent it would look if the gospels all copied each other nearly identically.  It would be immediately recognizable as a fabrication, as different witnesses never have the same testimonies when it comes to recalling all the details.





    If I were going to write a book about somethign that happened 30 years ago and was in touch with any of the people who I had done stuff with back then, I'd correspond with them and make sure we got our stories straight...


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26548189 - 03/21/20 06:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Edit: Unhelpful comments.


    Edited by Shr00mEater (03/21/20 11:55 AM)


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
        #26548207 - 03/21/20 06:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Edit: more unhelpful comments.


    Edited by Shr00mEater (03/21/20 11:56 AM)


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon] * 1
        #26549372 - 03/21/20 05:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    On the other hand, think about how fraudulent it would look if the gospels all copied each other nearly identically.  It would be immediately recognizable as a fabrication, as different witnesses never have the same testimonies when it comes to recalling all the details.





    If I were going to write a book about somethign that happened 30 years ago and was in touch with any of the people who I had done stuff with back then, I'd correspond with them and make sure we got our stories straight...




    And that might explain some instances of correspondence.  But if it is essentially based on unique truthful testimony, it will also be peppered with these same types of discrepancies - small details only you saw or experienced,  a pattern of casual details and omissions that solve unexplained things (like the ruler Herod's private conversation) in other testimonies.  And the pattern of these coincidences within each gospel interconnects with the other gospels in no particular direciton or order.  In other words, none of the gospels looks derivative of each other.


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    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    OfflineThe Influence
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7] * 1
        #26553938 - 03/23/20 08:29 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    On the other hand, think about how fraudulent it would look if the gospels all copied each other nearly identically.  It would be immediately recognizable as a fabrication, as different witnesses never have the same testimonies when it comes to recalling all the details.





    If I were going to write a book about somethign that happened 30 years ago and was in touch with any of the people who I had done stuff with back then, I'd correspond with them and make sure we got our stories straight...




    And that might explain some instances of correspondence.  But if it is essentially based on unique truthful testimony, it will also be peppered with these same types of discrepancies - small details only you saw or experienced,  a pattern of casual details and omissions that solve unexplained things (like the ruler Herod's private conversation) in other testimonies.  And the pattern of these coincidences within each gospel interconnects with the other gospels in no particular direciton or order.  In other words, none of the gospels looks derivative of each other.



    You keep using the discrepancies as your point of truth. If the infallible god you speak of had so many miracles and was as powerful as you believe i think there might be a little more similarity in the stories. But thats not the case and no one knows for sure who the authors were or how long after these supposed miracles happened thatt these stories were written.

    You have shown 0 proof and if shroomeater isnt a puppet account of yours he just keeps saying you won the case now lets get on to more serious topics.

    But you havent proven a single thing, if anything you reaffirmed my disbelief. When you can go beyond an "ancient alien" what if response ill respond again...but you have no proof, if there was such proof the whole world would be christian


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
        #26554097 - 03/23/20 09:52 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    The Influence said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    On the other hand, think about how fraudulent it would look if the gospels all copied each other nearly identically.  It would be immediately recognizable as a fabrication, as different witnesses never have the same testimonies when it comes to recalling all the details.





    If I were going to write a book about somethign that happened 30 years ago and was in touch with any of the people who I had done stuff with back then, I'd correspond with them and make sure we got our stories straight...




    And that might explain some instances of correspondence.  But if it is essentially based on unique truthful testimony, it will also be peppered with these same types of discrepancies - small details only you saw or experienced,  a pattern of casual details and omissions that solve unexplained things (like the ruler Herod's private conversation) in other testimonies.  And the pattern of these coincidences within each gospel interconnects with the other gospels in no particular direciton or order.  In other words, none of the gospels looks derivative of each other.



    You keep using the discrepancies as your point of truth. If the infallible god you speak of had so many miracles and was as powerful as you believe i think there might be a little more similarity in the stories. But thats not the case and no one knows for sure who the authors were or how long after these supposed miracles happened thatt these stories were written.

    You have shown 0 proof and if shroomeater isnt a puppet account of yours he just keeps saying you won the case now lets get on to more serious topics.

    But you havent proven a single thing, if anything you reaffirmed my disbelief. When you can go beyond an "ancient alien" what if response ill respond again...but you have no proof, if there was such proof the whole world would be christian




    He also clearly hasn't done any study of mythology, those sort of discrepancies are exactly what to expect in the spread of a mythological story.  The stories of Raven are told in slightly different ways all up and down the Pacific Coast.  I believe in Raven, as I do in Christ, but claiming either sort of myth as a historical record makes it no longer something to believe.


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon] * 1
        #26554448 - 03/24/20 05:32 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    He also clearly hasn't done any study of mythology, those sort of discrepancies are exactly what to expect in the spread of a mythological story.  The stories of Raven are told in slightly different ways all up and down the Pacific Coast.  I believe in Raven, as I do in Christ, but claiming either sort of myth as a historical record makes it no longer something to believe.




    It has to be clear by now that I'm not just talking about discrepancies in general.  Of course that would be unimpressive.

    Here are direct links again with the examples.  When you are willing to engage with the argument let me know.

    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173


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    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26556276 - 03/25/20 01:53 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    He also clearly hasn't done any study of mythology, those sort of discrepancies are exactly what to expect in the spread of a mythological story.  The stories of Raven are told in slightly different ways all up and down the Pacific Coast.  I believe in Raven, as I do in Christ, but claiming either sort of myth as a historical record makes it no longer something to believe.




    It has to be clear by now that I'm not just talking about discrepancies in general.  Of course that would be unimpressive.

    Here are direct links again with the examples.  When you are willing to engage with the argument let me know.

    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26529186#26529186
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26530479#26530479
    https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26531173#26531173





    Yep.  I read that.  Side by side comparisons with verified eye witness testimony and aknowledged myth, to show that they actually line up with the one and not the other would be more convincing than the approach you are using.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: The Influence]
        #26556397 - 03/25/20 06:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    The Influence, you said my name...

    So, I guess we are friends again?

    Check your pms :smile:




    Edit: If the influence isn’t Babylons puppet, he just keeps misunderstanding basic argumentation and is unable to move on to serious stuff.



    Edited by Shr00mEater (03/25/20 06:42 AM)


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26556426 - 03/25/20 06:50 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Could you give an example of a side by side?

    Like of a different mythological work compared to the Bible? I think that might be helpful in showing that the possibility of the NT being a myth is still on the table. Do you have something in mind that shows a similar pattern as saved7 is claiming?

    Or, do you mean like comparing a witness statement to the bible( which saved7 claims has been done). Got me thinking now.... I am probably going to read a few mythological works to see if I can recognize similarities. Do you have a suggestion on good myths that aren’t as popular? 

    I also think we should clarify the term “myth”, I think saved7 is considering a myth as purely fictional, or at least not based in true events, and it seems you are using a different definition.

    Also, just thought of this, is it common for myths to name real places and people, even within 60 years of the event? Or how long does a myth take to develop?

    You have given me a lot to look into, definitely sparked an interest in taking mythology more seriously.


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26556601 - 03/25/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Anyone who read ASOIAF knows it’s easy to make similar but not identical “eyewitnesses” testimony of fictional events. Martin’s writing style actually fits all of those criteria perfectly. Doesn’t mean he proved dragons are real...

    No one in their right mind thinks OP’s argument proves anything.

    He’s stuck on the same fallacious statement...just because it’s written in a certain way doesn’t say anything about it’s authenticity. To prove that, he’d need to corroborate the NT with...you know....something other than the NT :lol:


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26556647 - 03/25/20 09:17 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    I think it being written a certain way does say SOMETHING about it.

    It’s obviously not meant to be taken as a fictional work.

    So, is it a con? Again..... I dunno if that fits either.

    This myth angle Babylon is bringing up seems interesting and reasonable to me. I can imagine a story being told of part truth, part teaching or moral advice and then purposely being romanticized for the sake of a community. Is this something like what you mean, Babylon?

    The dating of the texts still makes me wonder about how a myth is first created. I am totally ignorant of anything outside the basic Greek myths or other popularized myths.

    Feldman, out of curiosity, why would it matter to you if an apostle did, in fact, follow a guy named Jesus around and then wrote it down? Do you believe every person who claims they saw something or wrote it down in a book? I am dumbfounded and curious why everyone is so resistant to the actual argument being made. There seems to be either a severe tendency for deflection from the topic from the opposing side. Bringing in all sorts of other things about Christianity..... but hardly ever directly confronting the evidence being presented with evidence to the contrary.

    To me, it is nothing to accept that contemporaries wrote about Jesus. It makes as much sense as anything else we believe about ancient documents. Most of what we know from ancient history isn’t firsthand accounts. Why would we care if this was or wasn’t? Would it be more or less authoritative if it was a supposed eyewitness, Herodotus might be a good example of what I am getting at. 

    To me, wether they were made up, or eyewitnesses doesn’t seem to affect my view of any of the miraculous claims. Is there something I am missing where my consent on his points is giving up more ground than I intend?


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26557302 - 03/25/20 03:28 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    I disputed the only argument you’ve made so far, after promising proof.

    You “gave up” the entire premise of the argument in the end there. You said “it doesn’t matter” whether or not the thing you’re arguing for is true or not...and that finding out it’s not wouldn’t effect how you view the miracles...


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26557373 - 03/25/20 04:19 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    I don’t remember promising proof. Evidence maybe?

    I also don’t mind giving up the premise. I’m not vested in the outcome of the argument. I like both sides. It’s an interesting subject. I’m not arguing “for” a particular interpretation of the gospels. I am arguing that it seems more likely that the gospels were written by contemporaries, and that OP presented his case in a reasonable format, and also pointing out the conflicts in the oppositions that have been raised.

    Since we are off topic anyway, as has been much of the counterpoints: How are you assuming I see miracles? :smile:

    I think, when we talk about miracles portrayed in the Bible, or of any kind, textual criticism and philosophical arguments won’t quite cut it for me. I am more scientific minded when it comes to something that should be testable and verifiable to us. I would need a demonstration of supernatural power, and even that I would like to criticize. I think the typical line is that; miracles were for that time and not ours. If God wanted to do a miracle today, he could, but he only chose to do them at certain times as signs. And, if miracles happened all the time, they wouldn’t be miracles. :grin:

    That’s why I say I don’t think it matters if they were eyewitnesses, and why the myth angle as I am starting to see it looks appealing. Even if they were eyewitnesses, I think there could be elements that were purposely mythologized. Think of parables: a lot of them are made up stories, metaphors, describing a kind of value. If Jesus himself fictionalized the “true”  ideas he was trying to convey, why wouldn’t the disciples follow suit when writing their accounts?

    I still wonder why they would write negative stuff about themselves tho.

    Peter doesn’t come out looking too good. Maybe the other disciples didn’t like him and were just trying to make him look bad?



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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114] * 1
        #26558466 - 03/26/20 06:31 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    He’s stuck on the same fallacious statement...just because it’s written in a certain way doesn’t say anything about it’s authenticity. To prove that, he’d need to corroborate the NT with...you know....something other than the NT :lol:




    What's interesting is we rational modern people have designed an entire system of forensic 'truth-seeking' (e.g. homocide detective work) around just those "certain ways" that testimony is provided.  There are specific signatures in multi-witness testimony that point to either fraud and collusion or honest trustworthiness.  It is a science. (though surely an imperfect one)

    It seems like you want to pretend this line of reasoning doesn't exist, because the closer we look at the gospels under that forensic lens, the more they are shown to provide that certain signature. 

    In short, if the gospels were embellished myths, it is extremely difficult to explain why they have this pattern of undesigned, casual coincidences and confirmations of each other. (a pattern we typically only find among honest witnesses, recalling actual events to the best of their ability)

    One way to avoid dealing with this evidence, which I see posters now doing, is to move the discussion away from specificity and back into a generalities (e.g. "Discprepancies *in general* don't prove anything!")

    To any readers closely following the thread, it is obvious I am not speaking of any 'general discrepancies', yet the opposition seems determined to keep the discussion at that level of vagueness.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26558496 - 03/26/20 07:06 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    A conclusion can not be based on itself.

    You need to back up the Bible with something other than itself if you want to examine it’s authenticity.

    Just like anything else in life...


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114]
        #26558500 - 03/26/20 07:09 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Like I said, there is an IDENTICAL pattern of “undersigned, casual coincidences” in George R. R. Martin’s “A Song of Ice and Fire” series. Every chapter is written from a different perspective and their accounts vary JUST LIKE the different books of the Bible.

    But guess what? They weren’t the authors.

    Btw, it’s a much better read than the Bible. You should give it a go.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114] * 1
        #26559092 - 03/26/20 12:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    Like I said, there is an IDENTICAL pattern of “undersigned, casual coincidences” in George R. R. Martin’s “A Song of Ice and Fire” series. Every chapter is written from a different perspective and their accounts vary JUST LIKE the different books of the Bible.





    Just curious, can you give a specific example?

    And do you think it is likely that different gospel authors in the 1st century (with time of their writing separated by up to decades) colluded to produce interconnected works of fiction like that? 

    I'd like to expound further on just how casual/subtle these coincidences are.  (just look at the examples I've already provided).
    They don't serve to advance any kind of narrative. Readers wouldn't even notice them unless they were painstakingly searching and comparing all four gospels.  The point being, from a collusion/fraud outlook, it is quite mysterious what the function of such subtle coincidences would be... unless they were simply just the natural and expected result of truthful multi-witness testimonies.

    Also note, the gospel authors not only had to confirm each other, but also had to be accurate with a myriad of geographical and historical details specific to that time and place. (no wikipedia for research)


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26559287 - 03/26/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    How does it matter what century?

    And yes it’s likely. Though it’s even more likely that the books were written down in order, with each new author having read the others.


    And sorry, but I’m not gonna search through the books. Give them a read, you’ll see what I mean. Or ask a fan. We’re everywhere.


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    Offlinethealienthatategod
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114] * 1
        #26559555 - 03/26/20 04:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    on miracles, the most mundane thing, my cats pur for example, could be a miracle if you have eyes to see it.  magnets are miracles, how do they work?

    there will always be errors when humans try to put things in order.  imperfect human errors means that something is always excluded and things will frequently be diminished or eliminated.  however, the Divine reflection can still be seen even in this human made imperfect ordering of things.

    from the garbage heaps of human observation, there, in the meaningless convergences the Divine may be concealed.

    accidental things are preset by chance. 

    we each choose how much significance this chance has - choosing if the significance is an accident - and throwing it back into the garbage heap, or choosing that the significance has a seriously meaningful-coincidence that was concealed in a garbage heap.


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    Offlineqman
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: thealienthatategod]
        #26559764 - 03/26/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Does anyone ever think about how uneducated people were just 500 years ago about the physical world around us?  It was even worse 2000 years ago.

    They knew NOTHING about the earth, stars, the solar system, black holes, the age of the universe, galaxies, atoms, particles, chemistry, physics, biology and the list goes on and on.

    There's a reason why they invented fairy tales, it was to fill in the gaps about the world around them.

    Why in the world would anyone want to listen to these uneducated people?  You couldn't even have a conservation about anything with them today.


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    OfflineBabylon
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26560109 - 03/26/20 09:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    The Influence, you said my name...

    So, I guess we are friends again?

    Check your pms :smile:




    Edit: If the influence isn’t Babylons puppet, he just keeps misunderstanding basic argumentation and is unable to move on to serious stuff.






    Everyone is my puppet.


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    OfflineBabylon
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
        #26560120 - 03/26/20 09:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)


    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    Could you give an example of a side by side?

    Like of a different mythological work compared to the Bible? I think that might be helpful in showing that the possibility of the NT being a myth is still on the table. Do you have something in mind that shows a similar pattern as saved7 is claiming?

    Or, do you mean like comparing a witness statement to the bible( which saved7 claims has been done). Got me thinking now.... I am probably going to read a few mythological works to see if I can recognize similarities. Do you have a suggestion on good myths that aren’t as popular? 

    I also think we should clarify the term “myth”, I think saved7 is considering a myth as purely fictional, or at least not based in true events, and it seems you are using a different definition.

    Also, just thought of this, is it common for myths to name real places and people, even within 60 years of the event? Or how long does a myth take to develop?

    You have given me a lot to look into, definitely sparked an interest in taking mythology more seriously.




    I mean eyewitness testimony with specific ways it differs, as in the actual testimony in a case where we know what happened.  The bible and the ways those stories differ, and aknowledged myth like the Raven or Coyote stories and the different versions told by neighboring tribes.  If I saw those three things, lined up with actual quotes and the ways that the pattern was similar for eyewitness testimony but not for myths then I might believe the bible was eyewitness. 

    Myths absolutely name real places, almost universally, as far as real people not all do, but the Greek and Roman myths often included emperors and other historical people.  What I mean when I say myth is a sacred story involving the gods, they aren't true in the simple way that an eyewitness report can be true, but they are also not false, they aren't lies, or fiction, they are sacred stories, the truth they offer is a deeper truth than what we can prove.


    Edited by Babylon (03/26/20 09:41 PM)


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26560124 - 03/26/20 09:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    feldman114 said:
    He’s stuck on the same fallacious statement...just because it’s written in a certain way doesn’t say anything about it’s authenticity. To prove that, he’d need to corroborate the NT with...you know....something other than the NT :lol:




    What's interesting is we rational modern people have designed an entire system of forensic 'truth-seeking' (e.g. homocide detective work) around just those "certain ways" that testimony is provided.  There are specific signatures in multi-witness testimony that point to either fraud and collusion or honest trustworthiness.  It is a science. (though surely an imperfect one)

    It seems like you want to pretend this line of reasoning doesn't exist, because the closer we look at the gospels under that forensic lens, the more they are shown to provide that certain signature. 

    In short, if the gospels were embellished myths, it is extremely difficult to explain why they have this pattern of undesigned, casual coincidences and confirmations of each other. (a pattern we typically only find among honest witnesses, recalling actual events to the best of their ability)

    One way to avoid dealing with this evidence, which I see posters now doing, is to move the discussion away from specificity and back into a generalities (e.g. "Discprepancies *in general* don't prove anything!")

    To any readers closely following the thread, it is obvious I am not speaking of any 'general discrepancies', yet the opposition seems determined to keep the discussion at that level of vagueness.




    I still maintain you are not being specific enough.  I need to see both eyewitness testimony that has the patterns you see in the bible and myth that does not.


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    Offlinethealienthatategod
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
        #26560344 - 03/27/20 01:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    how can you be so sure that it is not you who knows nothing?

    could their 'unsophisticated' understanding be incomprehensible to you BECAUSE of all your education, not their lack of it?

    do you truly believe your modern understanding of the solar system, black holes, physics, biology, etc somehow gives your understandings more value and meaning than someone who lacks the same modern sophisticated understanding?  there's no value and meaning to their understandings because they are not educated like yours?

    in that case, an ET intelligence observes you now, (from 10 million years in the future, but as far as you understand it's now).  they determine that carbon-based intelligence in the meat phase is not sentient, because it has to communicate by making sounds with its meat flaps and, because they are unable to create technology where its meat bags can move faster than light speed.  because they have determined you are not sentient, this planet will be marked uninhabited, and the ET intelligence will continue their search for sentience that they can communicate with elsewhere in the universe.  being marked uninhabited, no other ET's will come to look for sentience on earth again.


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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26560531 - 03/27/20 05:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    To any readers closely following the thread, it is obvious I am not speaking of any 'general discrepancies', yet the opposition seems determined to keep the discussion at that level of vagueness.




    Quote:

    Babylon said:

    I still maintain you are not being specific enough.  I need to see both eyewitness testimony that has the patterns you see in the bible and myth that does not.




    are you saying that the patterns of eyewitness testimony that saved7 has talked about, cannot concurrently exist alongside myth?  why not both?  can the two really be plied apart? 

    a story about man and G-d can be both specific and non-specific at the same time.  dense and entangled, what do unlikely coincidences and juxtapositions conceal?

    if something always was, and always will be, then its reality is seemingly without boundaries of beginning and endings.


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
        #26561040 - 03/27/20 11:55 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    Myths absolutely name real places, almost universally, as far as real people not all do, but the Greek and Roman myths often included emperors and other historical people. 




    This is why we have to avoid generalities, and stay specific.  Of course there is nothing impressive in getting big, well-known aspects of history right.  It's the small, localized details that count.

    Just one example from the Gospels:

    This is after the child Jesus has been taken by his parents to Egypt, (to hide from Herod who was slaughtering children in Bethlehem).  After Herod dies, Joseph and Mary begin traveling towards Jerusalem with Jesus. However, Joseph, along the way.....


    But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

    - Matthew 2:22

    This is the only verse in the Bible that mentions the ruler Archelaus, and notice how casually such a detail is provided, without any explanation (like we might expect with a fabricated narrative) of how Jospeh came to hear of and fear Archelaus as he was traveling into Israel.

    Here are non-biblical historical accounts of Archelaus, where we are informed that he was engaged in a battle with a sect of Jews who wanted an end to Rome's control over Israel, which turned to mass violence.  It is said that Archelaus had thousands of Jews killed, and also cancelled their Passover festivals.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_Archelaus

    Picture the scene.  Multitudes of Jews fleeing the violence and persecution in Judea.  Joseph, with the child Jesus, is traveling into Judea as Jews are fleeing from the tyranny of Archelaus.  And this is how Joseph comes to hear about Archelaus during his journey.
    This extra-biblical historical detail provides a satisfactory explanation of the unexplained detail in Matthew 2:22.


    Furthermore, Archelaus only reigned in Israel for 9 years (and was not even a king like Herod, but did in fact 'reign'.. another small, but hard detail that the Gospel of Matthew author gets right).  Details like this make it unlikely that later authors were developing a myth about the early life of Jesus.  They are the kind of casually mentioned, historically verifiable details that naturally accumulate in truthful accounts.

    And it's not one, or two, or a few.  These types of casually mentioned historical details are all throughout the gospels.  And they are hard ones to get right.

    You can listen to this example explained a lot better here in Timothy McGrew's lecture... as well as many other examples of historicity in the gospels:
    watch from about 12:00 - 20:00 minute mark.
    t=740


    Things like this, accumulated throughout the gospels, add up to strong evidence that they are truthful accounts.  In myths, we don't don't get consistently accurate small (yet hard to know unless you were really there) historical details. 

    This is a subtle pattern of authenticity undergirding all of the gospels, and is the opposite of what we expect of fraud or myth.


    Quote:

    Babylon said:
    What I mean when I say myth is a sacred story involving the gods, they aren't true in the simple way that an eyewitness report can be true, but they are also not false, they aren't lies, or fiction, they are sacred stories, the truth they offer is a deeper truth than what we can prove.




    And virtually the entire religious pantheon of the world looks just like that... sacred stories that didn't really happen. 

    Isn't it interesting how the Gospels of Jesus Christ don't fit that mold at all?  Instead they appear as actual historical biographies.

    Almost as if they are true.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


    Edited by saved7 (03/27/20 12:15 PM)


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    Offlinefeldman114
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26561106 - 03/27/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Where’s the real-life example he asked for though?


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    Offlineqman
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: thealienthatategod]
        #26561194 - 03/27/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    thealienthatategod said:
    how can you be so sure that it is not you who knows nothing?

    could their 'unsophisticated' understanding be incomprehensible to you BECAUSE of all your education, not their lack of it?

    do you truly believe your modern understanding of the solar system, black holes, physics, biology, etc somehow gives your understandings more value and meaning than someone who lacks the same modern sophisticated understanding?  there's no value and meaning to their understandings because they are not educated like yours?

    in that case, an ET intelligence observes you now, (from 10 million years in the future, but as far as you understand it's now).  they determine that carbon-based intelligence in the meat phase is not sentient, because it has to communicate by making sounds with its meat flaps and, because they are unable to create technology where its meat bags can move faster than light speed.  because they have determined you are not sentient, this planet will be marked uninhabited, and the ET intelligence will continue their search for sentience that they can communicate with elsewhere in the universe.  being marked uninhabited, no other ET's will come to look for sentience on earth again.




    I know more about the physical world than people did in the past. Today, humans have demonstrated their knowledge relative to past time periods. Will current human knowledge be minuscule relative to ten thousand years from now?  Absolutely, but that difference doesn't make the current comparison from 2000 years ago invalid in nature.

    People from 2000 years ago invented fairy tales to make up for their lack of knowledge. That's why religions are all over the world.


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    Offlinethealienthatategod
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman] * 1
        #26561336 - 03/27/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    before humans had written word, when information was passed orally between generations, knowledge was accumulated in the form of myths.  modern scholars do not consider these myths to be historical evidence. yet, much of human experience prior to written word has been largely omitted from history.  having written word changed the information transaction, allowing knowledge to be accumulated in a new form.  they are just two different ways of exchanging information within human experience.

    in the mid-ninteenth century, the Trojan War was seen as a fantastical non-historical event. it wasn't until a German archaeologist named Heinrich Schielmann followed geographical clues from the Iliad, and discovered the remains of the city of Troy, exactly as Homer had said it was, in western Turkey.  Homer based the Iliad on stories that he was told as a child.  so sometimes a myth is proven to be a historical event.

    modern human culture, communicates information largely electronically and frequently runs, hides, and/or ignores all evidence that's counter-narrative to understanding. -instead of trying to communicate this counter-narrative understanding, it's buried. how will future scholars consider all the information communicated electronically when examining historical evidence of this current era?


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
        #26561641 - 03/27/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    qman said:
    People from 2000 years ago invented fairy tales to make up for their lack of knowledge. That's why religions are all over the world.




    That's amusing coming from a neo-Epicurean.

    You just hide your gods under labels like "forces" or "inherent properties"


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlineqman
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26562693 - 03/28/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    qman said:
    People from 2000 years ago invented fairy tales to make up for their lack of knowledge. That's why religions are all over the world.




    That's amusing coming from a neo-Epicurean.

    You just hide your gods under labels like "forces" or "inherent properties"




    You have to demonstrate "gods" exist before you can accuse someone of hiding them. :shrug:


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
        #26563746 - 03/28/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    qman said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    qman said:
    People from 2000 years ago invented fairy tales to make up for their lack of knowledge. That's why religions are all over the world.




    That's amusing coming from a neo-Epicurean.

    You just hide your gods under labels like "forces" or "inherent properties"




    You have to demonstrate "gods" exist before you can accuse someone of hiding them. :shrug:




    Regarding a belief in ultimate causes, your materialist religion has no better explanation for natural process.  Take electromagnetic charge, or gravity, for example.  What ultimately causes these things to be?

    You cross out the word 'god' and write in other terms like 'inherent property' or 'phenomenon' and hope nobody notices it's the same underlying superstition in different packaging.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    OfflineBabylon
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: thealienthatategod]
        #26563926 - 03/28/20 06:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    thealienthatategod said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:

    To any readers closely following the thread, it is obvious I am not speaking of any 'general discrepancies', yet the opposition seems determined to keep the discussion at that level of vagueness.




    Quote:

    Babylon said:

    I still maintain you are not being specific enough.  I need to see both eyewitness testimony that has the patterns you see in the bible and myth that does not.




    are you saying that the patterns of eyewitness testimony that saved7 has talked about, cannot concurrently exist alongside myth?  why not both?  can the two really be plied apart? 

    a story about man and G-d can be both specific and non-specific at the same time.  dense and entangled, what do unlikely coincidences and juxtapositions conceal?

    if something always was, and always will be, then its reality is seemingly without boundaries of beginning and endings.




    I'm saying that he is claiming the patterns in the bible stories are common to eyewitness testimony and not to myth, and that I would be much more prone to believe him if his examples included both eyewitness testimony and myth, all he has are bible quotes.

    It is very possible that both eyewitness testimony and myth would have the same divergence patterns.  I haven't studied testimony enough to be able to say as far as that is concerned.


    Saved quoted the bible giving a specific ruler and time, the sort of thing that Roman, Egyptian and Greek mythology are full of, but not the sort of thing I have ever seen in eyewitness testimony.  Then he said this


    Quote:

    And virtually the entire religious pantheon of the world looks just like that... sacred stories that didn't really happen.

    Isn't it interesting how the Gospels of Jesus Christ don't fit that mold at all?  Instead they appear as actual historical biographies.

    Almost as if they are true.





    Showing a real basic misunderstanding of myth again, when he says it didn't really happen. 

    Line up some stories for me saved, show me the differences between Christ and Osiris, that he shares in common with John Doe the murder victim.  You are dead set on Christ being a Jewish criminal, devoid of the sacred, go on a little more, convince me there is nothing sacred about your messiah.  I don't believe you.


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    Offlineqman
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26565129 - 03/29/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    qman said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    qman said:
    People from 2000 years ago invented fairy tales to make up for their lack of knowledge. That's why religions are all over the world.




    That's amusing coming from a neo-Epicurean.

    You just hide your gods under labels like "forces" or "inherent properties"




    You have to demonstrate "gods" exist before you can accuse someone of hiding them. :shrug:




    Regarding a belief in ultimate causes, your materialist religion has no better explanation for natural process.  Take electromagnetic charge, or gravity, for example.  What ultimately causes these things to be?

    You cross out the word 'god' and write in other terms like 'inherent property' or 'phenomenon' and hope nobody notices it's the same underlying superstition in different packaging.




    Science does offer explanations of what is occurring in the nature. You're attempting to find the cause of nature, that puts the burden of proof on you for that assertion. Science makes no claim for the cause of the natural world existing in the first place. So you analogy is fallacious reasoning, try again.


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    InvisibleShr00mEater
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
        #26565342 - 03/29/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    I think he was actually attempting to explain a case for the four gospels being eyewitness accounts.

    You said science doesn’t have an answer for the cause of nature. So, it could be god? Are you an agnostic?

    :grin:


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman] * 1
        #26565401 - 03/29/20 02:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    qman said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Regarding a belief in ultimate causes, your materialist religion has no better explanation for natural process.  Take electromagnetic charge, or gravity, for example.  What ultimately causes these things to be?

    You cross out the word 'god' and write in other terms like 'inherent property' or 'phenomenon' and hope nobody notices it's the same underlying superstition in different packaging.




    Science does offer explanations of what is occurring in the nature. You're attempting to find the cause of nature, that puts the burden of proof on you for that assertion. Science makes no claim for the cause of the natural world existing in the first place. So you analogy is fallacious reasoning, try again.




    I was referring to your materialist ideology, not science.


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlineqman
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater] * 1
        #26565603 - 03/29/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    Shr00mEater said:
    I think he was actually attempting to explain a case for the four gospels being eyewitness accounts.

    You said science doesn’t have an answer for the cause of nature. So, it could be god? Are you an agnostic?

    :grin:




    Yes, it could be a god. But we're not allowed to make claims without being able to demonstrate it.  Science or materialism makes no such claim.


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    Offlineqman
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26565609 - 03/29/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    qman said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Regarding a belief in ultimate causes, your materialist religion has no better explanation for natural process.  Take electromagnetic charge, or gravity, for example.  What ultimately causes these things to be?

    You cross out the word 'god' and write in other terms like 'inherent property' or 'phenomenon' and hope nobody notices it's the same underlying superstition in different packaging.




    Science does offer explanations of what is occurring in the nature. You're attempting to find the cause of nature, that puts the burden of proof on you for that assertion. Science makes no claim for the cause of the natural world existing in the first place. So you analogy is fallacious reasoning, try again.




    I was referring to your materialist ideology, not science.




    Stop assuming what people believe, it's a disingenuous form of debate.


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
        #26566604 - 03/30/20 06:23 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    qman said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    qman said:
    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Regarding a belief in ultimate causes, your materialist religion has no better explanation for natural process.  Take electromagnetic charge, or gravity, for example.  What ultimately causes these things to be?

    You cross out the word 'god' and write in other terms like 'inherent property' or 'phenomenon' and hope nobody notices it's the same underlying superstition in different packaging.




    Science does offer explanations of what is occurring in the nature. You're attempting to find the cause of nature, that puts the burden of proof on you for that assertion. Science makes no claim for the cause of the natural world existing in the first place. So you analogy is fallacious reasoning, try again.




    I was referring to your materialist ideology, not science.




    Stop assuming what people believe, it's a disingenuous form of debate.




    Materialists get quite defensive when the scientific facade is removed and their underlying ideology is brought into the light.  Just something I've noticed over the years.

    It's usually a dead giveaway when someone portrays Science (capital S) with the language of a monolithic arbitrating entity.  (e.g. "Science says..."  "I believe in Science..." , etc.)


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    OfflineForresterM
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
        #26566956 - 03/30/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    It's usually a dead giveaway when someone portrays Science (capital S) with the language of a monolithic arbitrating entity.  (e.g. "Science says..."  "I believe in Science..." , etc.)




    Or when they do the same with the Bible?


    --------------------
    Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
    -------------------

    Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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    InvisibleShr00mEater
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Forrester]
        #26567022 - 03/30/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Wow. I thought this thing was off topic on page two...

    Look at us now, everyone swinging for the left field!


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    Offlinethealienthatategod
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Forrester]
        #26567029 - 03/30/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    one is the belief in something physical

    the other a belief in Something non-physical.

    people believe in gravity enough that their feet stay attached to the ground - yet we know our understanding of it is incomplete. 

    you don't see people just floating off into space everyday because they overcome their belief in gravity!!!


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    Offlineqman
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: thealienthatategod]
        #26567285 - 03/30/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    thealienthatategod said:
    one is the belief in something physical

    the other a belief in Something non-physical.

    people believe in gravity enough that their feet stay attached to the ground - yet we know our understanding of it is incomplete. 

    you don't see people just floating off into space everyday because they overcome their belief in gravity!!!




    The physical world can be demonstrated, the non-physical world is nothing more than fantasy unless it can be demonstrated.


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    Offlinethealienthatategod
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
        #26567402 - 03/30/20 02:01 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    what do placebo effects demonstrate?


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    InvisibleShr00mEater
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
        #26567415 - 03/30/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Dreams are non-physical. So are thoughts.

    I think it could be hard to demonstrate either have a “reality” in the physical. Maybe a physical cause, but, a physical property? I dunno.

    But, still, it appears that dreams and thoughts do exist in some way.


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    Offlinesaved7
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
        #26568547 - 03/31/20 07:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    qman said:
    The physical world can be demonstrated, the non-physical world is nothing more than fantasy unless it can be demonstrated.




    Your position is self-refuting.

    The physical world is bound by non-physical law.  We sometimes refer to these as 'inherent properties' of nature.  For example, Gravity is said to be natural phenomenon produced by an inherent property of matter in the universe.

    That inherent property is the directing force of nature, yet is itself nowhere located in the realm of the physical.  Even if we resolved the natural mechanics even further, it's just kicking the can down the road and we're ultimately left with the same scenario.

    So it is self-evident that the physical world exists and persists by the order and direction of some non-physical authority.

    Unfortunately, the materialist is so boxed in by his own contrived ideology, that he must deny this basic God-given reasoning.  He willingly cuts himself off from truth, even though it is continually staring him in the face.



    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

    - Romans 1:20-22


    --------------------
    "Who do you say that I am?"
    - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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    Offlineqman
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    Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7] * 1
        #26568781 - 03/31/20 10:28 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

    Quote:

    saved7 said:
    Quote:

    qman said:
    The physical world can be demonstrated, the non-physical world is nothing more than fantasy unless it can be demonstrated.




    Your position is self-refuting.

    The physical world is bound by non-physical law.  We sometimes refer to these as 'inherent properties' of nature.  For example, Gravity is said to be natural phenomenon produced by an inherent property of matter in the universe.

    That inherent property is the directing force of nature, yet is itself nowhere located in the realm of the physical.  Even if we resolved the natural mechanics even further, it's just kicking the can down the road and we're ultimately left with the same scenario.

    So it is self-evident that the physical world exists and persists by the order and direction of some non-physical authority.

    Unfortunately, the materialist is so boxed in by his own contrived ideology, that he must deny this basic God-given reasoning.  He willingly cuts himself off from truth, even though it is continually staring him in the face.



    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

    - Romans 1:20-22




    "The physical world is bound by non-physical law"

    Another baseless assertion, evidence??  Please demonstrate it.

    "So it is self-evident that the physical world exists and persists by the order and direction of some non-physical authority"

    If that was the case, there would be plenty of evidence for that claim, but it's not there. :shrug:  Gravity isn't evidence for god.


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