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feldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26559287 - 03/26/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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How does it matter what century?
And yes it’s likely. Though it’s even more likely that the books were written down in order, with each new author having read the others.
And sorry, but I’m not gonna search through the books. Give them a read, you’ll see what I mean. Or ask a fan. We’re everywhere.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: feldman114] 1
#26559555 - 03/26/20 04:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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on miracles, the most mundane thing, my cats pur for example, could be a miracle if you have eyes to see it. magnets are miracles, how do they work?
there will always be errors when humans try to put things in order. imperfect human errors means that something is always excluded and things will frequently be diminished or eliminated. however, the Divine reflection can still be seen even in this human made imperfect ordering of things.
from the garbage heaps of human observation, there, in the meaningless convergences the Divine may be concealed.
accidental things are preset by chance.
we each choose how much significance this chance has - choosing if the significance is an accident - and throwing it back into the garbage heap, or choosing that the significance has a seriously meaningful-coincidence that was concealed in a garbage heap.
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qman
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26559764 - 03/26/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Does anyone ever think about how uneducated people were just 500 years ago about the physical world around us? It was even worse 2000 years ago.
They knew NOTHING about the earth, stars, the solar system, black holes, the age of the universe, galaxies, atoms, particles, chemistry, physics, biology and the list goes on and on.
There's a reason why they invented fairy tales, it was to fill in the gaps about the world around them.
Why in the world would anyone want to listen to these uneducated people? You couldn't even have a conservation about anything with them today.
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Babylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26560109 - 03/26/20 09:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shr00mEater said: The Influence, you said my name...
So, I guess we are friends again?
Check your pms 
Edit: If the influence isn’t Babylons puppet, he just keeps misunderstanding basic argumentation and is unable to move on to serious stuff.
Everyone is my puppet.
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Babylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26560120 - 03/26/20 09:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shr00mEater said: Could you give an example of a side by side?
Like of a different mythological work compared to the Bible? I think that might be helpful in showing that the possibility of the NT being a myth is still on the table. Do you have something in mind that shows a similar pattern as saved7 is claiming?
Or, do you mean like comparing a witness statement to the bible( which saved7 claims has been done). Got me thinking now.... I am probably going to read a few mythological works to see if I can recognize similarities. Do you have a suggestion on good myths that aren’t as popular?
I also think we should clarify the term “myth”, I think saved7 is considering a myth as purely fictional, or at least not based in true events, and it seems you are using a different definition.
Also, just thought of this, is it common for myths to name real places and people, even within 60 years of the event? Or how long does a myth take to develop?
You have given me a lot to look into, definitely sparked an interest in taking mythology more seriously.
I mean eyewitness testimony with specific ways it differs, as in the actual testimony in a case where we know what happened. The bible and the ways those stories differ, and aknowledged myth like the Raven or Coyote stories and the different versions told by neighboring tribes. If I saw those three things, lined up with actual quotes and the ways that the pattern was similar for eyewitness testimony but not for myths then I might believe the bible was eyewitness.
Myths absolutely name real places, almost universally, as far as real people not all do, but the Greek and Roman myths often included emperors and other historical people. What I mean when I say myth is a sacred story involving the gods, they aren't true in the simple way that an eyewitness report can be true, but they are also not false, they aren't lies, or fiction, they are sacred stories, the truth they offer is a deeper truth than what we can prove.
Edited by Babylon (03/26/20 09:41 PM)
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Babylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26560124 - 03/26/20 09:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
saved7 said:
Quote:
feldman114 said: He’s stuck on the same fallacious statement...just because it’s written in a certain way doesn’t say anything about it’s authenticity. To prove that, he’d need to corroborate the NT with...you know....something other than the NT 
What's interesting is we rational modern people have designed an entire system of forensic 'truth-seeking' (e.g. homocide detective work) around just those "certain ways" that testimony is provided. There are specific signatures in multi-witness testimony that point to either fraud and collusion or honest trustworthiness. It is a science. (though surely an imperfect one)
It seems like you want to pretend this line of reasoning doesn't exist, because the closer we look at the gospels under that forensic lens, the more they are shown to provide that certain signature.
In short, if the gospels were embellished myths, it is extremely difficult to explain why they have this pattern of undesigned, casual coincidences and confirmations of each other. (a pattern we typically only find among honest witnesses, recalling actual events to the best of their ability)
One way to avoid dealing with this evidence, which I see posters now doing, is to move the discussion away from specificity and back into a generalities (e.g. "Discprepancies *in general* don't prove anything!")
To any readers closely following the thread, it is obvious I am not speaking of any 'general discrepancies', yet the opposition seems determined to keep the discussion at that level of vagueness.
I still maintain you are not being specific enough. I need to see both eyewitness testimony that has the patterns you see in the bible and myth that does not.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
#26560344 - 03/27/20 01:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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how can you be so sure that it is not you who knows nothing?
could their 'unsophisticated' understanding be incomprehensible to you BECAUSE of all your education, not their lack of it?
do you truly believe your modern understanding of the solar system, black holes, physics, biology, etc somehow gives your understandings more value and meaning than someone who lacks the same modern sophisticated understanding? there's no value and meaning to their understandings because they are not educated like yours?
in that case, an ET intelligence observes you now, (from 10 million years in the future, but as far as you understand it's now). they determine that carbon-based intelligence in the meat phase is not sentient, because it has to communicate by making sounds with its meat flaps and, because they are unable to create technology where its meat bags can move faster than light speed. because they have determined you are not sentient, this planet will be marked uninhabited, and the ET intelligence will continue their search for sentience that they can communicate with elsewhere in the universe. being marked uninhabited, no other ET's will come to look for sentience on earth again.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
#26560531 - 03/27/20 05:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
saved7 said:
To any readers closely following the thread, it is obvious I am not speaking of any 'general discrepancies', yet the opposition seems determined to keep the discussion at that level of vagueness.
Quote:
Babylon said:
I still maintain you are not being specific enough. I need to see both eyewitness testimony that has the patterns you see in the bible and myth that does not.
are you saying that the patterns of eyewitness testimony that saved7 has talked about, cannot concurrently exist alongside myth? why not both? can the two really be plied apart?
a story about man and G-d can be both specific and non-specific at the same time. dense and entangled, what do unlikely coincidences and juxtapositions conceal?
if something always was, and always will be, then its reality is seemingly without boundaries of beginning and endings.
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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Babylon]
#26561040 - 03/27/20 11:55 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Babylon said: Myths absolutely name real places, almost universally, as far as real people not all do, but the Greek and Roman myths often included emperors and other historical people.
This is why we have to avoid generalities, and stay specific. Of course there is nothing impressive in getting big, well-known aspects of history right. It's the small, localized details that count.
Just one example from the Gospels:
This is after the child Jesus has been taken by his parents to Egypt, (to hide from Herod who was slaughtering children in Bethlehem). After Herod dies, Joseph and Mary begin traveling towards Jerusalem with Jesus. However, Joseph, along the way.....
But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: - Matthew 2:22
This is the only verse in the Bible that mentions the ruler Archelaus, and notice how casually such a detail is provided, without any explanation (like we might expect with a fabricated narrative) of how Jospeh came to hear of and fear Archelaus as he was traveling into Israel.
Here are non-biblical historical accounts of Archelaus, where we are informed that he was engaged in a battle with a sect of Jews who wanted an end to Rome's control over Israel, which turned to mass violence. It is said that Archelaus had thousands of Jews killed, and also cancelled their Passover festivals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_Archelaus
Picture the scene. Multitudes of Jews fleeing the violence and persecution in Judea. Joseph, with the child Jesus, is traveling into Judea as Jews are fleeing from the tyranny of Archelaus. And this is how Joseph comes to hear about Archelaus during his journey. This extra-biblical historical detail provides a satisfactory explanation of the unexplained detail in Matthew 2:22.
Furthermore, Archelaus only reigned in Israel for 9 years (and was not even a king like Herod, but did in fact 'reign'.. another small, but hard detail that the Gospel of Matthew author gets right). Details like this make it unlikely that later authors were developing a myth about the early life of Jesus. They are the kind of casually mentioned, historically verifiable details that naturally accumulate in truthful accounts.
And it's not one, or two, or a few. These types of casually mentioned historical details are all throughout the gospels. And they are hard ones to get right.
You can listen to this example explained a lot better here in Timothy McGrew's lecture... as well as many other examples of historicity in the gospels: watch from about 12:00 - 20:00 minute mark. t=740
Things like this, accumulated throughout the gospels, add up to strong evidence that they are truthful accounts. In myths, we don't don't get consistently accurate small (yet hard to know unless you were really there) historical details.
This is a subtle pattern of authenticity undergirding all of the gospels, and is the opposite of what we expect of fraud or myth.
Quote:
Babylon said: What I mean when I say myth is a sacred story involving the gods, they aren't true in the simple way that an eyewitness report can be true, but they are also not false, they aren't lies, or fiction, they are sacred stories, the truth they offer is a deeper truth than what we can prove.
And virtually the entire religious pantheon of the world looks just like that... sacred stories that didn't really happen.
Isn't it interesting how the Gospels of Jesus Christ don't fit that mold at all? Instead they appear as actual historical biographies.
Almost as if they are true.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
Edited by saved7 (03/27/20 12:15 PM)
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feldman114
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26561106 - 03/27/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Where’s the real-life example he asked for though?
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qman
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26561194 - 03/27/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: how can you be so sure that it is not you who knows nothing?
could their 'unsophisticated' understanding be incomprehensible to you BECAUSE of all your education, not their lack of it?
do you truly believe your modern understanding of the solar system, black holes, physics, biology, etc somehow gives your understandings more value and meaning than someone who lacks the same modern sophisticated understanding? there's no value and meaning to their understandings because they are not educated like yours?
in that case, an ET intelligence observes you now, (from 10 million years in the future, but as far as you understand it's now). they determine that carbon-based intelligence in the meat phase is not sentient, because it has to communicate by making sounds with its meat flaps and, because they are unable to create technology where its meat bags can move faster than light speed. because they have determined you are not sentient, this planet will be marked uninhabited, and the ET intelligence will continue their search for sentience that they can communicate with elsewhere in the universe. being marked uninhabited, no other ET's will come to look for sentience on earth again.
I know more about the physical world than people did in the past. Today, humans have demonstrated their knowledge relative to past time periods. Will current human knowledge be minuscule relative to ten thousand years from now? Absolutely, but that difference doesn't make the current comparison from 2000 years ago invalid in nature.
People from 2000 years ago invented fairy tales to make up for their lack of knowledge. That's why religions are all over the world.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman] 1
#26561336 - 03/27/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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before humans had written word, when information was passed orally between generations, knowledge was accumulated in the form of myths. modern scholars do not consider these myths to be historical evidence. yet, much of human experience prior to written word has been largely omitted from history. having written word changed the information transaction, allowing knowledge to be accumulated in a new form. they are just two different ways of exchanging information within human experience.
in the mid-ninteenth century, the Trojan War was seen as a fantastical non-historical event. it wasn't until a German archaeologist named Heinrich Schielmann followed geographical clues from the Iliad, and discovered the remains of the city of Troy, exactly as Homer had said it was, in western Turkey. Homer based the Iliad on stories that he was told as a child. so sometimes a myth is proven to be a historical event.
modern human culture, communicates information largely electronically and frequently runs, hides, and/or ignores all evidence that's counter-narrative to understanding. -instead of trying to communicate this counter-narrative understanding, it's buried. how will future scholars consider all the information communicated electronically when examining historical evidence of this current era?
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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
#26561641 - 03/27/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: People from 2000 years ago invented fairy tales to make up for their lack of knowledge. That's why religions are all over the world.
That's amusing coming from a neo-Epicurean.
You just hide your gods under labels like "forces" or "inherent properties"
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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qman
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26562693 - 03/28/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
saved7 said:
Quote:
qman said: People from 2000 years ago invented fairy tales to make up for their lack of knowledge. That's why religions are all over the world.
That's amusing coming from a neo-Epicurean.
You just hide your gods under labels like "forces" or "inherent properties"
You have to demonstrate "gods" exist before you can accuse someone of hiding them.
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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
#26563746 - 03/28/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
saved7 said:
Quote:
qman said: People from 2000 years ago invented fairy tales to make up for their lack of knowledge. That's why religions are all over the world.
That's amusing coming from a neo-Epicurean.
You just hide your gods under labels like "forces" or "inherent properties"
You have to demonstrate "gods" exist before you can accuse someone of hiding them. 
Regarding a belief in ultimate causes, your materialist religion has no better explanation for natural process. Take electromagnetic charge, or gravity, for example. What ultimately causes these things to be?
You cross out the word 'god' and write in other terms like 'inherent property' or 'phenomenon' and hope nobody notices it's the same underlying superstition in different packaging.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Babylon
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26563926 - 03/28/20 06:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
Quote:
saved7 said:
To any readers closely following the thread, it is obvious I am not speaking of any 'general discrepancies', yet the opposition seems determined to keep the discussion at that level of vagueness.
Quote:
Babylon said:
I still maintain you are not being specific enough. I need to see both eyewitness testimony that has the patterns you see in the bible and myth that does not.
are you saying that the patterns of eyewitness testimony that saved7 has talked about, cannot concurrently exist alongside myth? why not both? can the two really be plied apart?
a story about man and G-d can be both specific and non-specific at the same time. dense and entangled, what do unlikely coincidences and juxtapositions conceal?
if something always was, and always will be, then its reality is seemingly without boundaries of beginning and endings.
I'm saying that he is claiming the patterns in the bible stories are common to eyewitness testimony and not to myth, and that I would be much more prone to believe him if his examples included both eyewitness testimony and myth, all he has are bible quotes.
It is very possible that both eyewitness testimony and myth would have the same divergence patterns. I haven't studied testimony enough to be able to say as far as that is concerned.
Saved quoted the bible giving a specific ruler and time, the sort of thing that Roman, Egyptian and Greek mythology are full of, but not the sort of thing I have ever seen in eyewitness testimony. Then he said this
Quote:
And virtually the entire religious pantheon of the world looks just like that... sacred stories that didn't really happen.
Isn't it interesting how the Gospels of Jesus Christ don't fit that mold at all? Instead they appear as actual historical biographies.
Almost as if they are true.
Showing a real basic misunderstanding of myth again, when he says it didn't really happen.
Line up some stories for me saved, show me the differences between Christ and Osiris, that he shares in common with John Doe the murder victim. You are dead set on Christ being a Jewish criminal, devoid of the sacred, go on a little more, convince me there is nothing sacred about your messiah. I don't believe you.
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qman
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: saved7]
#26565129 - 03/29/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
saved7 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
saved7 said:
Quote:
qman said: People from 2000 years ago invented fairy tales to make up for their lack of knowledge. That's why religions are all over the world.
That's amusing coming from a neo-Epicurean.
You just hide your gods under labels like "forces" or "inherent properties"
You have to demonstrate "gods" exist before you can accuse someone of hiding them. 
Regarding a belief in ultimate causes, your materialist religion has no better explanation for natural process. Take electromagnetic charge, or gravity, for example. What ultimately causes these things to be?
You cross out the word 'god' and write in other terms like 'inherent property' or 'phenomenon' and hope nobody notices it's the same underlying superstition in different packaging.
Science does offer explanations of what is occurring in the nature. You're attempting to find the cause of nature, that puts the burden of proof on you for that assertion. Science makes no claim for the cause of the natural world existing in the first place. So you analogy is fallacious reasoning, try again.
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Shr00mEater
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman]
#26565342 - 03/29/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think he was actually attempting to explain a case for the four gospels being eyewitness accounts.
You said science doesn’t have an answer for the cause of nature. So, it could be god? Are you an agnostic?
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saved7
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: qman] 1
#26565401 - 03/29/20 02:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
saved7 said: Regarding a belief in ultimate causes, your materialist religion has no better explanation for natural process. Take electromagnetic charge, or gravity, for example. What ultimately causes these things to be?
You cross out the word 'god' and write in other terms like 'inherent property' or 'phenomenon' and hope nobody notices it's the same underlying superstition in different packaging.
Science does offer explanations of what is occurring in the nature. You're attempting to find the cause of nature, that puts the burden of proof on you for that assertion. Science makes no claim for the cause of the natural world existing in the first place. So you analogy is fallacious reasoning, try again.
I was referring to your materialist ideology, not science.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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qman
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Re: What if the gospels of Jesus Christ were proven true to you? [Re: Shr00mEater] 1
#26565603 - 03/29/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shr00mEater said: I think he was actually attempting to explain a case for the four gospels being eyewitness accounts.
You said science doesn’t have an answer for the cause of nature. So, it could be god? Are you an agnostic?

Yes, it could be a god. But we're not allowed to make claims without being able to demonstrate it. Science or materialism makes no such claim.
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