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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

Registered: 02/26/19
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What is your preferred form of governance?
#26521782 - 03/07/20 07:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Mine is technocracy ruled by a benevolent dictator.
Only the smartest, most woke and empathic people will have positions in the technocracy.
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Psilynut2
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Pinkerton] 1
#26521840 - 03/07/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Who determines the method for figuring out who is the smartest and most woke ? I prefer the govt we currently have in the states , where the constitution protects me from crazy shit like that .
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Psilynut2] 1
#26521888 - 03/07/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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The Constitution is woke AF
AF!
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Psilynut2
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil]
#26521898 - 03/07/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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The best form of govt is one that is subjected to more regulations and oversight than the people it’s governing .
Edited by Psilynut2 (03/07/20 09:19 AM)
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil]
#26521960 - 03/07/20 09:57 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The Constitution is woke AF
AF!
Who are you? I feel like you've been posting much differently since you've been back.
OP, your idea is destined for complete failure. Rep-democracy would be better if there were term limits on congress.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: natedawgnow] 1
#26521967 - 03/07/20 10:00 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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During my hiatus, I got woke AF
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil]
#26521971 - 03/07/20 10:02 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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That makes sense
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: natedawgnow] 2
#26522073 - 03/07/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I heartily accept the motto, “That government is best which governs least”; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe — “That government is best which governs not at all”; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.
[...]
The authority of government, even such as I am willing to submit to — for I will cheerfully obey those who know and can do better than I, and in many things even those who neither know nor can do so well — is still an impure one: to be strictly just, it must have the sanction and consent of the governed. It can have no pure right over my person and property but what I concede to it. The progress from an absolute to a limited monarchy, from a limited monarchy to a democracy, is a progress toward a true respect for the individual. Even the Chinese philosopher was wise enough to regard the individual as the basis of the empire. Is a democracy, such as we know it, the last improvement possible in government? Is it not possible to take a step further towards recognizing and organizing the rights of man? There will never be a really free and enlightened State until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived, and treats him accordingly. I please myself with imagining a State at least which can afford to be just to all men, and to treat the individual with respect as a neighbor; which even would not think it inconsistent with its own repose if a few were to live aloof from it, not meddling with it, nor embraced by it, who fulfilled all the duties of neighbors and fellow-men. A State which bore this kind of fruit, and suffered it to drop off as fast as it ripened, would prepare the way for a still more perfect and glorious State, which also I have imagined, but not yet anywhere seen.
- Thoreau, Civil Disobedience
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Stable Genius
Durka durka


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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26523194 - 03/08/20 01:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I do enjoy your posts shivas.wisdom, and I've tried to imagine a functioning society with peaceful anarchy, but I can't. Some people are just plain evil, without any rules it's the wild west.
My preferred form of governance would be one where once elected officials are caught lying, or ripping off the public, they're gone, never to hold any type of public office again and whatever wealth they accrued confiscated.
Individual taxation would be based on consumption, the more you spend the more tax is paid. Small business are already tax agents for the government as we all do tax returns.
There would be a well funded public broadcaster to investigate government. No more secret squirrel rubbish either, nothing will be 'classified' anymore, nothing.
The public health system, the education system, would work on a rewards based arrangement ie the better/more efficient things run the more people are rewarded with time off or similar, but not rewarded with money.
Drugs? We grow enough Opium poppy here to give out $0.20 shots of heroin... go for it... as long as you're willing to discuss why you need a heroin or coke or meth habit with a health professional.
I tell ya, things are gonna change when I get into power
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Brian Jones
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Stable Genius] 2
#26523529 - 03/08/20 08:24 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Social Democracy. I want a lot of capitalism and a lot of socialism.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil]
#26523544 - 03/08/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The Constitution is woke AF
AF!
It is a remarkable document. But the 2nd amendment should have been better worded, or maybe I'm just at issue with how it has been interpreted in modern times. The NRA is one of the most significant lobbying orgs around and many in congress are beholding to them. Maybe in our current system the answer is a (sensible) gun control organization that has more money than the NRA.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Stable Genius] 2
#26523762 - 03/08/20 11:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said: I do enjoy your posts shivas.wisdom, and I've tried to imagine a functioning society with peaceful anarchy, but I can't. Some people are just plain evil, without any rules it's the wild west.
I think the difficulty in envisioning an anarchist society comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of what anarchy means.
Let me ask you this: some people who are just plain evil will exist regardless of the system of governance - so why is it posed as a specific problem for anarchism?
If you understand anarchy to mean 'against rules' then it makes sense. Our systems of government (and all their laws/rules) have difficulty preventing all the horrible things people can do to each other - just imagine how much worse it would be without any rules at all!
But anarchy isn't the idea that society would run best without rules - it's more correct to understand anarchy to mean 'against rulers'. An anarchist society is organized on a horizontal basis - mutual aid instead of police, worker co-ops instead of bosses, local assemblies instead of national government, participatory association instead of taxes, etc. This is far from a no rules free-for-all.
Nobody is fit to rule anybody else. Not just because humanity is imperfect; rule as such causes abuse. There are no superpeople or privileged classes who are above 'imperfect humanity' and are capable or entitled to rule the rest of us. Every system of government hasbbeen an attempt to ensure that the best people are put into positions of authority but even a cursory study of history (near or distant) or observation of the present reveals that evil (or at least corrupt and self-serving) people get into these positions of authority with regularity - there's a reason politician is synonymous with liar - and the greatest crimes against humanity and nature have only been possible when otherwise good people obeyed their evil rulers.
One of the philosophical arguments supporting anarchist organizing starts with an acknowledgement that some people are evil, adds the observation that evil people in positions of rulership has been necessary for the greatest crimes of history, and makes the conclusion that the system of human organization most likely to avoid this is one that avoids positions of rulership in general. You might still have Charles Mansons and Jim Jones flare up in an anarchist society, but you won't have Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia. A society organized horizontally is inherently resistant to such widespread authoritarianism.
So how will the anarchist utopia work? That's a question I'll never again be duped into disputing over, a red herring if there ever was one! This isn't utopian vision, or a program or ideal to serve - it's simply a way of proceeding, of approaching relationships, of dealing with problems! Being an anarchist doesn't mean believing anarchy, let alone anarchism, can fix everything - it just means acknowledging it's up to us to work things out, that no one and nothing else can do this for us: admitting that, like it or not, our lives are in our hands - and in each others'.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26523846 - 03/08/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's a beautiful thing to say, but the very picture you posted was of graffiti. That isn't "against rulers." That's against rules. Specifically, against property rights.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Brian Jones]
#26523848 - 03/08/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
Enlil said: The Constitution is woke AF
AF!
It is a remarkable document. But the 2nd amendment should have been better worded, or maybe I'm just at issue with how it has been interpreted in modern times. The NRA is one of the most significant lobbying orgs around and many in congress are beholding to them. Maybe in our current system the answer is a (sensible) gun control organization that has more money than the NRA.
It's hard for me to consider the 2nd without the context of the framers having just recently organized an armed revolution against the lawful government of the land with privately held arms.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil] 1
#26523989 - 03/08/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: That's a beautiful thing to say, but the very picture you posted was of graffiti. That isn't "against rulers." That's against rules. Specifically, against property rights.
Who made up that rule? I don't remember agreeing to it or being consulted on it or anything. Just because anarchy doesn't mean 'against rules' doesn't mean all rules are considered legitimate - especially those created by illegitimate authority.
Private property (distinct from personal property*) is generally a rule implemented by and for the benefit of the property owning class (ie, landlords, capitalists, illegitimate authority) at the expense of the majority who don't even own one house let alone entire apartment blocks - such a rule would never pass through the type of consensus-based decision making you commonly see in anarchist communities.
Personal property is respected but I'll go out of my way to paint anarchist propaganda on private property every chance I get.
*Personal property is that which you clearly own through use and occupancy. Private property is that which you don't own through use and occupancy, but by the magic of the State still own; enabling the exploitation of others by charging for use and occupancy. For example, everyone should be able to own their own home, but no one should be able to own so many homes that a large portion of the population is forced into the precarious existence of tenancy or homelessness - especially for a profit.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Pinkerton] 2
#26524047 - 03/08/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pinkerton said: Mine is technocracy ruled by a benevolent dictator.
Only the smartest, most woke and empathic people will have positions in the technocracy.
lol you must be one of those people who think if you keep subsidizing Space X, Elon Musk will take you to Mars.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26524049 - 03/08/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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You're just making up the meanings to words, though. Personal property is private property. You can't "occupy" personal property. I guess anarchy means everyone just making up their own meaning to everything. That's great if you don't mind the strongest taking whatever they want while the weak just do what they can to survive.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil] 2
#26524065 - 03/08/20 02:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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Stable Genius
Durka durka


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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26524128 - 03/08/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
But anarchy isn't the idea that society would run best without rules - it's more correct to understand anarchy to mean 'against rulers'. An anarchist society is organized on a horizontal basis - mutual aid instead of police, worker co-ops instead of bosses, local assemblies instead of national government, participatory association instead of taxes, etc. This is far from a no rules free-for-all.
Nobody is fit to rule anybody else. but even a cursory study of history (near or distant) or observation of the present reveals that evil (or at least corrupt and self-serving) people get into these positions of authority with regularity
One of the philosophical arguments supporting anarchist organizing starts with an acknowledgement that some people are evil, adds the observation that evil people in positions of rulership has been necessary for the greatest crimes of history, and makes the conclusion that the system of human organization most likely to avoid this is one that avoids positions of rulership in general.
Thanks for taking the time to explain. Your description does sound similar to Socialism I think. Is there a major point of difference? Also, at the risk of getting too flowery, you'd need a world full of loving, sensible, empathetic citizens to drive something like that... we can't even get people to stop fighting over toilet paper, I don't think the world is able to go that far at present.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26524132 - 03/08/20 03:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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A curious cartoon 
It is odd that hot dogs are referred to as "hot dogs" even thou they have a bun around them.
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Stable Genius
Durka durka


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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] 1
#26524156 - 03/08/20 03:43 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's not a bun it's a hollowed out bagel
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Pinkerton
Ultrasentient

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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26525206 - 03/09/20 09:18 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Pinkerton said: Mine is technocracy ruled by a benevolent dictator.
Only the smartest, most woke and empathic people will have positions in the technocracy.
lol you must be one of those people who think if you keep subsidizing Space X, Elon Musk will take you to Mars.

Try again.
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Asante
Mage


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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Pinkerton] 1
#26525216 - 03/09/20 09:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I would like to see a form of governance where our finest experts are put in teams in charge of their expertise, and that these teams govern how to act and how to implement the changes requested by the central authority, the central authority being comprised of people screened for suitability for their forms of leadership and chosen by the people from that list.
I want us to be led by the best of us, not the worst of us.
Right now stephen hawking (RIP) is in charge of marathons and usain bolt of physics and cosmology.
We have TOTALLY THE WRONG PEOPLE in MOST POSITIONS.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Asante] 1
#26525231 - 03/09/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's a pretty good point, but on the other hand, China pretty much does that and I would not want to live under their system. One's whole upbringing and school career in China is devoted to being groomed for the most appropriate socioeconomic position possible. They test for everything, and put people in positions where their skills and intelligence level are a best fit. No one really chooses what they do -- the system chooses for them.
So someone like Donald Trump would probably be a street-sweeper in China. But all social positions that require high intelligence are filled with people of high intelligence. So such a scheme is no panacea against a suboptimal situation.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Asante]
#26525259 - 03/09/20 09:52 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: I want us to be led by the best of us, not the worst of us.
That'll never happen as long as leaders are picked by a democratic process.
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Psilynut2
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Asante]
#26525276 - 03/09/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I would like to see a form of governance where our finest experts are put in teams in charge of their expertise, and that these teams govern how to act and how to implement the changes requested by the central authority, the central authority being comprised of people screened for suitability for their forms of leadership and chosen by the people from that list.
Your assuming all of these smart people are still dumb enough to choose to waste their lives working for the govt .
Edited by Psilynut2 (03/09/20 10:09 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Psilynut2]
#26525333 - 03/09/20 10:55 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said: Your assuming all of these smart people are still dumb enough to choose to waste their lives working for the govt .
Why would it be "dumb" to work for the Government? Because billionaires say so and succeeded in cutting pay for Government work relative to comparable work in the private sector?
There's an easy solution for that. If you want the best, pay for the best.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Asante
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil] 1
#26525420 - 03/09/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Asante said: I want us to be led by the best of us, not the worst of us.
That'll never happen as long as leaders are picked by a democratic process.
You could have a group of highly qualified people to choose from, instead of whats happening now in the US, where the clout you pack in the party and the lobby groups determines whether you stand a chance being elected.
Both parties, and in fact in my country too. The most competent people are not the ones in power.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Asante] 2
#26525425 - 03/09/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Who decides what a qualified person is? Under what authority do they decide?
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Asante
Mage


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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26525477 - 03/09/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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We have experts, for everything. our network of experts in the right places will take care of it.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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meltdowner
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Asante]
#26526266 - 03/09/20 10:00 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Small, local government who cooperate with other small local governments.
-------------------- I'm a Lightweight. I like to eat like two caps at a time.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Stable Genius] 2
#26529042 - 03/11/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said: Thanks for taking the time to explain. Your description does sound similar to Socialism I think. Is there a major point of difference?
Actually, except for perhaps some of the more esoteric individualist tendencies, anarchism is essentially a branch of socialism. It might seem contradictory as anarchism tends to hold the individual as supreme; but where the few, the privileged, control the conditions of existence, it is not possible for most individuals to truly determine their existence on their terms. Individuality can only flourish where equality of access to the conditions of existence is the social reality. This equality of access is communism; what individuals do with that access is up to them and those around them.
We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality. - Bakunin
It's not as commonly used but 'libertarian socialism' is synonymous with anarchism and gives some insight into how it differs from the democratic socialism of Bernie Sanders. While the latter holds that democratic institutions can be used to turn the State towards socialism, anarchism holds that the State itself is one of the major obstacles to be abolished.
This schism goes back all the way to the First International, which dissolved over a disagreement between anarchists and State communists. State communists, similar to democratic socialists, believe that the State is to be used to achieve socialism - although in this case, seized through revolution and ruled through dictatorship of the proletariat (it's claimed that eventually this dictatorship will willingly disband when its transitory function has been completed).
Anarchist critique of the State is that it will inherently lead to inequality, and even honest attempts to use the State and its tools (the police, the military, the courts, the prison system, the bureaucracy) to create equality are doomed to failure. This has been an influential essay to me, and I recommend the read: There’s No Such Thing as Revolutionary Government - Why You Can’t Use the State to Abolish Class
Quote:
Stable Genius said: Also, at the risk of getting too flowery, you'd need a world full of loving, sensible, empathetic citizens to drive something like that... we can't even get people to stop fighting over toilet paper, I don't think the world is able to go that far at present.
It's not like these problems are solved under our current system - besides there is a lot to be said here about how much of this behaviour is natural to humans and how much is a product of the environmental conditions provided by modern day capitalism.
Petr Kropotkin published a series of essays in Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution which makes a very strong argument that altruism is the defining evolutionary factor for humans, as opposed to Darwin's concept of competitive survival. There is a large body of scientific study since then to support his conclusions.
Most people often refer to the prisoner's dilemma as an example of the benefit of selfishness - but the truth is that cooperative programs consistently preform better in these game theory challenges.
Capitalist realism refers to a perceived widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it. I think this is the difficulty you are displaying here - because none of your critiques apply only to anarchism, but since capitalism is considered the default it doesn't need to meet a similar standard.
You're correct that the kind of widespread cooperation required for a large anarchist society doesn't always seem possible right now - and in that case you're probably correct to say that the world isn't ready to go that far yet - but the individual, not institutions, is the basis of anarchism. You don't have to change the currently existing State institutions in order to start making changes on the individual level. Anarchism is not a general prescription for society like most systems of governance - anarchism is about reframing human interaction towards cooperation instead of domination and exploitation. I don't need the power of State institutions to implement this into my life today, and in implementing this in my life I begin to spread anarchy beyond my life. Anarchy is meant to be lived - not resigned to the existence of only theory.
Of course, that doesn't mean being naïve to the realities of today. I don't think many modern day anarchists are of the utopian variety - domination and exploitation will never been completely eradicated like some form of mental small-pox. The struggle will likely never end but even if I'm doomed in this struggle I won't give up - I'm doomed to die one day too but that doesn't mean I'll resign myself to death willingly.
Every day I live in anarchy is a victory over State and death.
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/11/20 12:09 PM)
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Stable Genius
Durka durka


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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26529316 - 03/11/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I think this is the difficulty you are displaying here - because none of your critiques apply only to anarchism, but since capitalism is considered the default it doesn't need to meet a similar standard.
good point.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: You don't have to change the currently existing State institutions in order to start making changes on the individual level. Anarchism is not a general prescription for society like most systems of governance - anarchism is about reframing human interaction towards cooperation instead of domination and exploitation. I don't need the power of State institutions to implement this into my life today.
You know, that's how I make decisions in my little business... which is probably why I keep bumping along the bottom half broke. However this doesn't necessarily mean unhappiness. I feel quite the benevolent dictator when I choose to pay the boys when rain stops work for the day or if we get things done by midday and they go home early, sharing beer from the customer in their favour etc etc.
Working a full 40 hours or getting more work done isn't the number one priority.
Doing enough work to pay bills so that we can get away from work is.
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specialpeopleclub


Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 5,584
Loc: Mitten
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Stable Genius]
#26530160 - 03/12/20 01:10 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think we have it good as we do. We should have easier ways of localizing and establishing new territory as ideas change. An example would be Oregon and Idaho, or west Virginia taking part of Virginia.
cities are politically different than rural areas. Areas of dense population vote democrat, as do people of color at a 2:1 or higher ratio.
I like the idea of making these areas into their own administrative divisions so they can self govern and not impose themselves on people in small towns and rural aras that are less 'diverse'
I am enjoying Propertarian ideas. I can't think
There are ideas that some may not find easy, but considering how things are going, It's a split from the liberal population centers, or some sort of conflict, and it isn't then left that is armed.
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Edited by specialpeopleclub (03/12/20 01:11 AM)
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