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OnlineStable Genius
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26524156 - 03/08/20 03:43 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That's not a bun :flowstone: it's a hollowed out bagel


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26525206 - 03/09/20 09:18 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Pinkerton said:
Mine is technocracy ruled by a benevolent dictator.

Only the smartest, most woke and empathic people will have positions in the technocracy.




lol you must be one of those people who think if you keep subsidizing Space X, Elon Musk will take you to Mars.



:facepalm:

Try again.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Pinkerton] * 1
    #26525216 - 03/09/20 09:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I would like to see a form of governance where our finest experts are put in teams in charge of their expertise, and that these teams govern how to act and how to implement the changes requested by the central authority, the central authority being comprised of people screened for suitability for their forms of leadership and chosen by the people from that list.

I want us to be led by the best of us, not the worst of us.

Right now stephen hawking (RIP) is in charge of marathons and usain bolt of physics and cosmology.

We have TOTALLY THE WRONG PEOPLE in MOST POSITIONS.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26525231 - 03/09/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That's a pretty good point, but on the other hand, China pretty much does that and I would not want to live under their system. One's whole upbringing and school career in China is devoted to being groomed for the most appropriate socioeconomic position possible. They test for everything, and put people in positions where their skills and intelligence level are a best fit. No one really chooses what they do -- the system chooses for them.

So someone like Donald Trump would probably be a street-sweeper in China. But all social positions that require high intelligence are filled with people of high intelligence. So such a scheme is no panacea against a suboptimal situation.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Asante]
    #26525259 - 03/09/20 09:52 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
I want us to be led by the best of us, not the worst of us.




That'll never happen as long as leaders are picked by a democratic process.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Asante]
    #26525276 - 03/09/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I would like to see a form of governance where our finest experts are put in teams in charge of their expertise, and that these teams govern how to act and how to implement the changes requested by the central authority, the central authority being comprised of people screened for suitability for their forms of leadership and chosen by the people from that list.




Your assuming all of these smart people are still dumb enough to choose to  waste their lives working for the govt .


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Edited by Psilynut2 (03/09/20 10:09 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26525333 - 03/09/20 10:55 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Your assuming all of these smart people are still dumb enough to choose to  waste their lives working for the govt .



Why would it be "dumb" to work for the Government?  Because billionaires say so and succeeded in cutting pay for Government work relative to comparable work in the private sector?

There's an easy solution for that.  If you want the best, pay for the best.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26525420 - 03/09/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Asante said:
I want us to be led by the best of us, not the worst of us.




That'll never happen as long as leaders are picked by a democratic process.





You could have a group of highly qualified people to choose from, instead of whats happening now in the US, where the clout you pack in the party and the lobby groups determines whether you stand a chance being elected.

Both parties, and in fact in my country too. The most competent people are not the ones in power.


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Omnicyclion.org
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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Asante] * 2
    #26525425 - 03/09/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Who decides what a qualified person is?  Under what authority do they decide?


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26525477 - 03/09/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

We have experts, for everything. our network of experts in the right places will take care of it.



--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
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Offlinemeltdowner
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Asante]
    #26526266 - 03/09/20 10:00 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Small, local government who cooperate with other small local governments.


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I'm a Lightweight.  I like to eat like two caps at a time.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #26529042 - 03/11/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Thanks for taking the time to explain.
Your description does sound similar to Socialism I think.
Is there a major point of difference?



Actually, except for perhaps some of the more esoteric individualist tendencies, anarchism is essentially a branch of socialism. It might seem contradictory as anarchism tends to hold the individual as supreme; but where the few, the privileged, control the conditions of existence, it is not possible for most individuals to truly determine their existence on their terms. Individuality can only flourish where equality of access to the conditions of existence is the social reality. This equality of access is communism; what individuals do with that access is up to them and those around them.

We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality. - Bakunin

It's not as commonly used but 'libertarian socialism' is synonymous with anarchism and gives some insight into how it differs from the democratic socialism of Bernie Sanders. While the latter holds that democratic institutions can be used to turn the State towards socialism, anarchism holds that the State itself is one of the major obstacles to be abolished.

This schism goes back all the way to the First International, which dissolved over a disagreement between anarchists and State communists. State communists, similar to democratic socialists, believe that the State is to be used to achieve socialism - although in this case, seized through revolution and ruled through dictatorship of the proletariat (it's claimed that eventually this dictatorship will willingly disband when its transitory function has been completed).

Anarchist critique of the State is that it will inherently lead to inequality, and even honest attempts to use the State and its tools (the police, the military, the courts, the prison system, the bureaucracy) to create equality are doomed to failure. This has been an influential essay to me, and I recommend the read: There’s No Such Thing as Revolutionary Government - Why You Can’t Use the State to Abolish Class




Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Also, at the risk of getting too flowery, you'd need a world full of loving, sensible, empathetic citizens to drive something like that... we can't even get people to stop fighting over toilet paper, I don't think the world is able to go that far at present.



It's not like these problems are solved under our current system - besides there is a lot to be said here about how much of this behaviour is natural to humans and how much is a product of the environmental conditions provided by modern day capitalism.

Petr Kropotkin published a series of essays in Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution which makes a very strong argument that altruism is the defining evolutionary factor for humans, as opposed to Darwin's concept of competitive survival. There is a large body of scientific study since then to support his conclusions.

Most people often refer to the prisoner's dilemma as an example of the benefit of selfishness - but the truth is that cooperative programs consistently preform better in these game theory challenges.

Capitalist realism refers to a perceived widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it. I think this is the difficulty you are displaying here - because none of your critiques apply only to anarchism, but since capitalism is considered the default it doesn't need to meet a similar standard.

You're correct that the kind of widespread cooperation required for a large anarchist society doesn't always seem possible right now - and in that case you're probably correct to say that the world isn't ready to go that far yet - but the individual, not institutions, is the basis of anarchism. You don't have to change the currently existing State institutions in order to start making changes on the individual level. Anarchism is not a general prescription for society like most systems of governance - anarchism is about reframing human interaction towards cooperation instead of domination and exploitation. I don't need the power of State institutions to implement this into my life today, and in implementing this in my life I begin to spread anarchy beyond my life. Anarchy is meant to be lived - not resigned to the existence of only theory.

Of course, that doesn't mean being naïve to the realities of today. I don't think many modern day anarchists are of the utopian variety - domination and exploitation will never been completely eradicated like some form of mental small-pox. The struggle will likely never end but even if I'm doomed in this struggle I won't give up - I'm doomed to die one day too but that doesn't mean I'll resign myself to death willingly.

Every day I live in anarchy is a victory over State and death.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/11/20 12:09 PM)


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OnlineStable Genius
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26529316 - 03/11/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I think this is the difficulty you are displaying here - because none of your critiques apply only to anarchism, but since capitalism is considered the default it doesn't need to meet a similar standard.




:awesomenod: good point.


Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
You don't have to change the currently existing State institutions in order to start making changes on the individual level. Anarchism is not a general prescription for society like most systems of governance - anarchism is about reframing human interaction towards cooperation instead of domination and exploitation. I don't need the power of State institutions to implement this into my life today.





You know, that's how I make decisions in my little business... which is probably why I keep bumping along the bottom half broke.
However this doesn't necessarily mean unhappiness.
I feel quite the benevolent dictator when I choose to pay the boys when rain stops work for the day or if we get things done by midday and they go home early, sharing beer from the customer in their favour etc etc.

Working a full 40 hours or getting more work done isn't the number one priority.

Doing enough work to pay bills so that we can get away from work is.


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26530160 - 03/12/20 01:10 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think we have it good as we do. We should have easier ways of localizing and establishing new territory as ideas change. An example would be Oregon and Idaho,  or west Virginia taking part of Virginia.

cities are politically different than rural areas. Areas of dense population vote democrat, as do people of color at a 2:1 or higher ratio.

I like the idea of making these areas into their own administrative divisions so they can self govern and not impose themselves on people in small towns and rural aras that are less 'diverse'

I am enjoying Propertarian ideas. I can't think



There are ideas that some may not find easy, but considering how things are going, It's a split from the liberal population centers, or some sort of conflict, and it isn't then left that is armed.


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Edited by specialpeopleclub (03/12/20 01:11 AM)


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