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InvisiblePinkerton
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What is your preferred form of governance?
    #26521782 - 03/07/20 07:49 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Mine is technocracy ruled by a benevolent dictator.

Only the smartest, most woke and empathic people will have positions in the technocracy.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Pinkerton] * 1
    #26521840 - 03/07/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Who determines the method for figuring out who is the smartest and most woke ?  I prefer the govt we currently have in the states , where the constitution protects me from crazy shit like that .


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #26521888 - 03/07/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The Constitution is woke AF

AF!


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil]
    #26521898 - 03/07/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The best form of govt is one that is subjected to more regulations and oversight than the people it’s  governing .


Edited by Psilynut2 (03/07/20 09:19 AM)


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil]
    #26521960 - 03/07/20 09:57 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The Constitution is woke AF

AF!



Who are you? I feel like you've been posting much differently since you've been back.

OP, your idea is destined for complete failure. Rep-democracy would be better if
there were term limits on congress.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26521967 - 03/07/20 10:00 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

During my hiatus, I got woke AF


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil]
    #26521971 - 03/07/20 10:02 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That makes sense :cookiemonster:


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: natedawgnow] * 2
    #26522073 - 03/07/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I heartily accept the motto, “That government is best which governs least”; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe — “That government is best which governs not at all”; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.

[...]

The authority of government, even such as I am willing to submit to — for I will cheerfully obey those who know and can do better than I, and in many things even those who neither know nor can do so well — is still an impure one: to be strictly just, it must have the sanction and consent of the governed. It can have no pure right over my person and property but what I concede to it. The progress from an absolute to a limited monarchy, from a limited monarchy to a democracy, is a progress toward a true respect for the individual. Even the Chinese philosopher was wise enough to regard the individual as the basis of the empire. Is a democracy, such as we know it, the last improvement possible in government? Is it not possible to take a step further towards recognizing and organizing the rights of man? There will never be a really free and enlightened State until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived, and treats him accordingly. I please myself with imagining a State at least which can afford to be just to all men, and to treat the individual with respect as a neighbor; which even would not think it inconsistent with its own repose if a few were to live aloof from it, not meddling with it, nor embraced by it, who fulfilled all the duties of neighbors and fellow-men. A State which bore this kind of fruit, and suffered it to drop off as fast as it ripened, would prepare the way for a still more perfect and glorious State, which also I have imagined, but not yet anywhere seen.

- Thoreau, Civil Disobedience







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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26523194 - 03/08/20 01:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I do enjoy your posts shivas.wisdom, and I've tried to imagine a functioning society with peaceful anarchy, but I can't.
Some people are just plain evil, without any rules it's the wild west.

My preferred form of governance would be one where once elected officials are caught lying, or ripping off
the public, they're gone, never to hold any type of public office again and whatever wealth they accrued confiscated.

Individual taxation would be based on consumption, the more you spend the more tax is paid.
Small business are already tax agents for the government as we all do tax returns.

There would be a well funded public broadcaster to investigate government. No more secret squirrel rubbish either, nothing will be 'classified' anymore, nothing.

The public health system, the education system, would work on a rewards based arrangement ie the better/more efficient
things run the more people are rewarded with time off or similar, but not rewarded with money.

Drugs? We grow enough Opium poppy here to give out $0.20 shots of heroin... go for it... as long as
you're willing to discuss why you need a heroin or coke or meth habit with a health professional.

I tell ya, things are gonna change when I get into power


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #26523529 - 03/08/20 08:24 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Social Democracy. I want a lot of capitalism and a lot of socialism.


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The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil]
    #26523544 - 03/08/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The Constitution is woke AF

AF!



It is a remarkable document. But the 2nd amendment should have been better worded, or maybe I'm just at issue with how it has been interpreted in modern times. The NRA is one of the most significant lobbying orgs around and many in congress are beholding to them. Maybe in our current system the answer is a (sensible) gun control organization that has more money than the NRA.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #26523762 - 03/08/20 11:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I do enjoy your posts shivas.wisdom, and I've tried to imagine a functioning society with peaceful anarchy, but I can't.
Some people are just plain evil, without any rules it's the wild west.



I think the difficulty in envisioning an anarchist society comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of what anarchy means.

Let me ask you this: some people who are just plain evil will exist regardless of the system of governance - so why is it posed as a specific problem for anarchism?

If you understand anarchy to mean 'against rules' then it makes sense. Our systems of government (and all their laws/rules) have difficulty preventing all the horrible things people can do to each other - just imagine how much worse it would be without any rules at all!

But anarchy isn't the idea that society would run best without rules - it's more correct to understand anarchy to mean 'against rulers'. An anarchist society is organized on a horizontal basis - mutual aid instead of police, worker co-ops instead of bosses, local assemblies instead of national government, participatory association instead of taxes, etc. This is far from a no rules free-for-all.

Nobody is fit to rule anybody else. Not just because humanity is imperfect; rule as such causes abuse. There are no superpeople or privileged classes who are above 'imperfect humanity' and are capable or entitled to rule the rest of us. Every system of government hasbbeen an attempt to ensure that the best people are put into positions of authority but even a cursory study of history (near or distant) or observation of the present reveals that evil (or at least corrupt and self-serving) people get into these positions of authority with regularity - there's a reason politician is synonymous with liar - and the greatest crimes against humanity and nature have only been possible when otherwise good people obeyed their evil rulers.

One of the philosophical arguments supporting anarchist organizing starts with an acknowledgement that some people are evil, adds the observation that evil people in positions of rulership has been necessary for the greatest crimes of history, and makes the conclusion that the system of human organization most likely to avoid this is one that avoids positions of rulership in general. You might still have Charles Mansons and Jim Jones flare up in an anarchist society, but you won't have Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia. A society organized horizontally is inherently resistant to such widespread authoritarianism.

So how will the anarchist utopia work? That's a question I'll never again be duped into disputing over, a red herring if there ever was one! This isn't utopian vision, or a program or ideal to serve - it's simply a way of proceeding, of approaching relationships, of dealing with problems! Being an anarchist doesn't mean believing anarchy, let alone anarchism, can fix everything - it just means acknowledging it's up to us to work things out, that no one and nothing else can do this for us: admitting that, like it or not, our lives are in our hands - and in each others'.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26523846 - 03/08/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That's a beautiful thing to say, but the very picture you posted was of graffiti.  That isn't "against rulers."  That's against rules.  Specifically, against property rights.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26523848 - 03/08/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
The Constitution is woke AF

AF!



It is a remarkable document. But the 2nd amendment should have been better worded, or maybe I'm just at issue with how it has been interpreted in modern times. The NRA is one of the most significant lobbying orgs around and many in congress are beholding to them. Maybe in our current system the answer is a (sensible) gun control organization that has more money than the NRA.




It's hard for me to consider the 2nd without the context of the framers having just recently organized an armed revolution against the lawful government of the land with privately held arms.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26523989 - 03/08/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's a beautiful thing to say, but the very picture you posted was of graffiti.  That isn't "against rulers."  That's against rules.  Specifically, against property rights.



Who made up that rule? I don't remember agreeing to it or being consulted on it or anything. Just because anarchy doesn't mean 'against rules' doesn't mean all rules are considered legitimate - especially those created by illegitimate authority.

Private property (distinct from personal property*) is generally a rule implemented by and for the benefit of the property owning class (ie, landlords, capitalists, illegitimate authority) at the expense of the majority who don't even own one house let alone entire apartment blocks - such a rule would never pass through the type of consensus-based decision making you commonly see in anarchist communities.

Personal property is respected but I'll go out of my way to paint anarchist propaganda on private property every chance I get.

*Personal property is that which you clearly own through use and occupancy. Private property is that which you don't own through use and occupancy, but by the magic of the State still own; enabling the exploitation of others by charging for use and occupancy. For example, everyone should be able to own their own home, but no one should be able to own so many homes that a large portion of the population is forced into the precarious existence of tenancy or homelessness - especially for a profit.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Pinkerton] * 2
    #26524047 - 03/08/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:
Mine is technocracy ruled by a benevolent dictator.

Only the smartest, most woke and empathic people will have positions in the technocracy.




lol you must be one of those people who think if you keep subsidizing Space X, Elon Musk will take you to Mars.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26524049 - 03/08/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You're just making up the meanings to words, though.  Personal property is private property.  You can't "occupy" personal property.  I guess anarchy means everyone just making up their own meaning to everything.  That's great if you don't mind the strongest taking whatever they want while the weak just do what they can to survive.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26524065 - 03/08/20 02:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)




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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26524128 - 03/08/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:

But anarchy isn't the idea that society would run best without rules - it's more correct to understand anarchy to mean 'against rulers'. An anarchist society is organized on a horizontal basis - mutual aid instead of police, worker co-ops instead of bosses, local assemblies instead of national government, participatory association instead of taxes, etc. This is far from a no rules free-for-all.

Nobody is fit to rule anybody else.
but even a cursory study of history (near or distant) or observation of the present reveals that evil (or at least corrupt and self-serving) people get into these positions of authority with regularity

One of the philosophical arguments supporting anarchist organizing starts with an acknowledgement that some people are evil, adds the observation that evil people in positions of rulership has been necessary for the greatest crimes of history, and makes the conclusion that the system of human organization most likely to avoid this is one that avoids positions of rulership in general.





Thanks for taking the time to explain.
Your description does sound similar to Socialism I think.
Is there a major point of difference?
Also, at the risk of getting too flowery, you'd need a world full of loving, sensible, empathetic citizens to drive something like that... we can't even get people to stop fighting over toilet paper, I don't think the world is able to go that far at present.


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OnlineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: What is your preferred form of governance? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26524132 - 03/08/20 03:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

A curious cartoon :strokebeard:

It is odd that hot dogs are referred to as "hot dogs" even thou they have a bun around them.


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