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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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The relationship of thought to language * 3
    #26516510 - 03/04/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

It is a question whether, at a fundamental level, language conditions our thoughts, or whether our thoughts condition our word-choice. Is our use of language a product of our conscious intentions – as one might regard the combinations of words in a good poem – or does language determine what thoughts we are able to have? Are we using language or is language using us?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: DividedQuantum] * 3
    #26516822 - 03/04/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

heyDQhey,

as a kid, learning a second language i would think about this all the time.  i can remember never being able to wrap my mind around this thought….

when I think of the word bird, I see the German word for it in my mind, and that is what I associate with the word bird.  then,  I learn the English word for bird, does that change how I think about the bird word in my mind?

i would roll this thought through my head with different words, and then think about how different peoples thoughts would be, even though they are talking about the same thing (a bird) but have different words for it.  so do we still think of bird in the same way?  i'm not sure if this is wat you are talking about, but if that is the case, i do think that language determines the thoughts that we are capable of having.  i wonder growing up bilingual, or learning a second language at a young age, how does this change that dynamic?

as an adult, struggling to verbally communicate, i realized it may be because when i think my thoughts to myself i don't think with words in German or English, i have my own language that i use to talk to myself in my head.  the language is based in movement -  seeing the movement of the thought in my mind.  every thought moves differently, and i see the movement in my mind, and that is how i talk to myself.  it feels freeing to not have to use words, why use words if you're just talking to yourself?

we have language to communicate ideas to one another, but ultimately, the words act as a interpretation device to get across a meaning.  it seems so much is lost in trying to interpret a thought into words.  to me, words limit the interpretation of the thought. causing a separation. 

at times when i cannot use words i use American Sign Language to talk, and it's interesting how much easier my brain finds it to speak with my hands instead of the mouth, i am much more fluent in the expression of my thoughts.  signed words feel like they are less like metaphors and analogies for my thoughts, but may be that is because of what i said above about thinking of thoughts in movement.

i remember reading about an uncontacted group of peoples once, and these people never had nightmares, but the word for nightmare also didn't exist in their language, because they obviously had no need for that word.  i wonder if they were taught the word nightmare, and taught what a nightmare was, would they then have the potential to have a nightmare?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26516900 - 03/04/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

learning and using words and vocabularies and grammars incredibly enriches thinking of a type; but being ensnared by word thinking, to the point that the rest of what is happening is ignored, actually stifles thought.

I like to go back and forth.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26517046 - 03/04/20 06:17 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

visual thinking & Benoit Mandelbrot - The " father of Fractals"

...." He had a tremendous gift in math, but it proved to be quite different from his uncle’s, in fact quite different from anything seen before in academia. He had a visual mind, a geometric mind, in a school setting where this was discouraged. He solved problems with great leaps of geometric intuition, rather than the “proper” established techniques of strict logical analysis. For instance, in the crucial entrance exams he could not do algebra very well, but still managed to receive the highest grade by, as he puts it, translating the questions mentally into pictures. "...

https://schoolofwisdom.com/fractal-wisdom/benoit-b-mandelbrot/


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: laughingdog]
    #26517107 - 03/04/20 06:42 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Idk for sure but I doubt there’s an absolute relationship between thought and speech (or writing).  Both can originate the experience.  Reading a book is basically imagined thought which obviously influences speech.  Simply talking a lot will influence thought over time. 

Sometimes I’ll notice myself thinking while vaguely beginning to mouth the words I’m thinking.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: laughingdog]
    #26517122 - 03/04/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Visual intelligence, like body intelligence, like word intelligence, like math intelligence, like encyclopedic memory are all great ways of thinking - often combined.
we seem to give too much primacy to word/language intelligence.
but it can help to remind us of the others in a sophisticated and accurate way, or symbolically.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26517234 - 03/04/20 07:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
heyDQhey,

as a kid, learning a second language i would think about this all the time.  i can remember never being able to wrap my mind around this thought….

when I think of the word bird, I see the German word for it in my mind, and that is what I associate with the word bird.  then,  I learn the English word for bird, does that change how I think about the bird word in my mind?

i would roll this thought through my head with different words, and then think about how different peoples thoughts would be, even though they are talking about the same thing (a bird) but have different words for it.  so do we still think of bird in the same way?  i'm not sure if this is wat you are talking about, but if that is the case, i do think that language determines the thoughts that we are capable of having.  i wonder growing up bilingual, or learning a second language at a young age, how does this change that dynamic?

as an adult, struggling to verbally communicate, i realized it may be because when i think my thoughts to myself i don't think with words in German or English, i have my own language that i use to talk to myself in my head.  the language is based in movement -  seeing the movement of the thought in my mind.  every thought moves differently, and i see the movement in my mind, and that is how i talk to myself.  it feels freeing to not have to use words, why use words if you're just talking to yourself?

we have language to communicate ideas to one another, but ultimately, the words act as a interpretation device to get across a meaning.  it seems so much is lost in trying to interpret a thought into words.  to me, words limit the interpretation of the thought. causing a separation. 

at times when i cannot use words i use American Sign Language to talk, and it's interesting how much easier my brain finds it to speak with my hands instead of the mouth, i am much more fluent in the expression of my thoughts.  signed words feel like they are less like metaphors and analogies for my thoughts, but may be that is because of what i said above about thinking of thoughts in movement.

i remember reading about an uncontacted group of peoples once, and these people never had nightmares, but the word for nightmare also didn't exist in their language, because they obviously had no need for that word.  i wonder if they were taught the word nightmare, and taught what a nightmare was, would they then have the potential to have a nightmare?





Fascinating post. I know some French but not much, so I am mostly unable to relate to the multilingual experience. But your phenomenon of thinking in movement is highly interesting to me. Certainly, some people are in an unthinking haze of language, constantly programmed by it and using it without much awareness. So I feel that the thoughts of such people are pretty much determined by linguistic programming. You, on the other hand, talk about German, English, ASL and abstract conceptualizations, so I would say that for someone like you, language is an expression of a conscious intent more than it is anything rote. Servant and master kind of thing.

In my post I sort of posited a dichotomy, but as I just pointed out, probably both sides of it come into play in varying degrees. As the level of individual awareness goes up, being dominated by language probably decreases, and vice versa. I personally have had very strong nonverbal experiences at times in my life, and I even used to think in abstract symbols or processes also, but lost that ability several years ago for reasons I don't fully understand. But on the other hand, I am a lover of language, and that's fine too if kept in perspective.

Indeed, there are all sorts of indigenous peoples who don't have words for things that are so familiar to us, and do have words for things that are positively impossible to translate. So it definitely cuts both ways.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26517251 - 03/04/20 07:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
visual thinking & Benoit Mandelbrot - The " father of Fractals"

...." He had a tremendous gift in math, but it proved to be quite different from his uncle’s, in fact quite different from anything seen before in academia. He had a visual mind, a geometric mind, in a school setting where this was discouraged. He solved problems with great leaps of geometric intuition, rather than the “proper” established techniques of strict logical analysis. For instance, in the crucial entrance exams he could not do algebra very well, but still managed to receive the highest grade by, as he puts it, translating the questions mentally into pictures. "...

https://schoolofwisdom.com/fractal-wisdom/benoit-b-mandelbrot/





Yes well Mandelbrot was an impressive fellow. I have always resonated with the notion of subtle order from chaos. There are many notions afoot that the brain works along similar fractal, nonlinear principles, and it would be very interesting, and probably quite difficult, to know how this translates into the phenomenon of language.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26517487 - 03/04/20 09:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Visual intelligence, like body intelligence, like word intelligence, like math intelligence, like encyclopedic memory are all great ways of thinking - often combined.
we seem to give too much primacy to word/language intelligence.
but it can help to remind us of the others in a sophisticated and accurate way, or symbolically.




Speaking for myself I do think visual iq is under utilized.  At least not given enough credit.  The word is a bit raw and uninspired whereas the image can cultivate other useful things that can inform in a unique way.


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26517656 - 03/04/20 10:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I certainly believe thought is heavily influenced by language. I believe we touched on this before in another thread you made to.

So, I once laughingly called my fiancee (native Spanish-speaker) "ridiculous" as she was freaking out about something insignificant. That only made her furious (and it wasn't hormones). See, in Spanish, "rídiculo" has the same connotation that we attach to "ridicule". It's very offensive. What's cool about this example is that English is aware of this disconnect (even if subconsciously) and thus we invented "deserving-of-ridicule". The same goes for "awesome" which has become so disconnected from "awe" that we created "awe-inspiring".

In a case of language being changed due to cultural attitudes, we can turn to Venezuela. In Spanish verbs have six conjugations per tense (I, you, he/she/sir, we, y'all and them). You'll notice that one tense is he/she/sir, this means that when speaking directly to someone of higher status you would use the "usted" or sir version. This form is alive and well in Colombia, but in Venezuela, a socialist state use of the "usted" form is quite rare. This may also be partly due to the fact that Venezuelan culture tends to more laid back and fun-loving.

Additionally, studies have been done (and I can personally attest to this phenomenon) that show that people's personality's change when thinking and speaking in different languages. I personally recorded myself telling a story in English and in Spanish. Amazingly, in Spanish I was far more expressive and smiled much more frequently. This effect is even more pronounced with me in Portuguese. It may be due to thought being redirected to forming sentences instead of self-conscious thoughts. Interesting nonetheless.

Finally, I've noticed that discussions of "illegal aliens" tend to be far more dehumanizing than discussions of "undocumented migrants." I believe it's just simply that the word "alien" makes them seem foreign and not worthy of empathy.


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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26519838 - 03/06/20 12:37 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Before the term "racist" or "sexist" was invented - humanity lived in a different world , , ,

But now, using the term "white male" is like calling someone a "nigger"  :laugh:  Evil white men suck and are the scourge of our race!

But seriously - imagine a time when self-identifying defect terms didn't exist - such as anxiety, PTSD, bipolar, addict, depression, and on and on - notice that as soon as a new word is created - many people jump on board and adopt the label - and defend it strongly. Notice how strongly people identify with these terms. It's similar to religious beliefs.


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OfflineMoower
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 2
    #26520023 - 03/06/20 05:47 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

As multilingual person I'll try to add a little to the post.

Words enriches Your cognitive abilities. The more of them You know and understand the more new conspects You are able to adopt. Imagine that You have never seen a tree - describing a forest to You would be impossible, as You'd have lacked basic understanding of it's possible structure.

Language changes Your personality. As Darwin23 pointed out, phrases and words are loaded with emotional baggage, based on etymology. Similar to Inuits having almost 400 different words describing the snow, the other languages have different proportions of words in their dictionary. Some will be precise in nature - like German or English, other more emotional like Spanish or Italian. More often than not You are not able to translate 1:1 between any given languages, and this create different narrative.

I'm fluent in English, Polish and Spanish and able to communicate in German, Italian and Dutch. A lot of times during my everyday conversations I mingle words from different languages casually because they describe what I meant the best. If it occurs while I'm talking with somebody unfamiliar with this language then it takes me a moment to elaborate why I've used this one instead of native equivalent.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: Moower]
    #26520651 - 03/06/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So it sounds like you're saying language conditions our thinking much more than our thinking conditions our use of language, and that makes sense. But then the question becomes, how limited is language is describing the world? If there are words for every thing or process there needs to be words for, then perhaps it is a two-way street. By this I mean that, yes different languages condition different cultures in unique ways, but of course there are many similarities between cultures, and we have things like literature and poetry that make things more complicated.

Surely a good poet is using language to bring to life the complex thoughts he or she is having, and perhaps phenomena deeper than thought. So as I have suggested, there is something like a two-way process going on. On the one hand, language in a deep sense gives us the means by which to articulate thoughts, as you point out well. On the other hand, there are instances in the use of language where a deep emotional or intellectual conscious state is intentionally articulated through a very precise choice of words. There is no reason we cannot have both aspects.

As I mentioned above, I have some knowledge of French, so I know the phenomenon of another language providing words that one's first language doesn't. It is wonderful to have an awareness of other languages, and one can see that different evolutions of cultures have conditioned thought processes in different ways. But I feel that sometimes the intent behind crafting word choices is an equally important side of the coin, and the only way this could be invalidated is if there were not enough words for possible thoughts in an Earthly environment. It seems there are. So we must acknowledge both sides of the coin, I think.


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26520658 - 03/06/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)



One of the languages they use in the amazon has like 1/4 the unique sounds we do in english. But i dont think that this has any limit on how deep there thoughts can be.


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: The Mycologist] * 2
    #26520683 - 03/06/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah one of the interesting things about indigenous languages in the Amazon is that they have discovered a language that is non-recursive. Linguistic theory established long ago that all languages must be recursive, or they cannot exist. Noam Chomsky based his whole linguistic philosophy on that premise. Well, they found one they strongly suspect is non-recursive. A recursive language, like all known languages, can have its word combinations generated by a particular algorithm, and those combinations only. A non-recursive language is one for which there is no possible algorithm.

This was a relatively recent discovery, and I haven't read a lot about it, but it has, as I said, upended a lot of established theory, as no one had any idea there were non-recursive languages. These tribes must see the world in a very interesting, and essentially alien way. I agree that their thoughts can probably be quite deep.


Here's an article about the Piraha: https://www.businessinsider.com/brazil-piraha-language-recursion-controversy-linguistics-2016-3


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: The relationship of thought to language [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #26524052 - 03/08/20 02:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

the Pirahá are fascinating, they also do not have notions about their own age, because the culture is so rooted in the present, and the language does not allow for a grammatical structure that can communicate embedded temporal relationships

i wonder how this moment by moment existence shapes their non-recursive language?

also, with Chimpanzees that have been taught sign language, they are not able to communicate things that are not currently present.


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