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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: Darwin23]
#26518664 - 03/05/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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WOW! I'm sorry you had those experiences. I can relate. I had a Jungian analyst who was also a Catholic priest and a Gay man. His family was wealthy and they put him through training in Zurich. He held a prestigious position in the local Archdiocese. He eventually died of AIDS (ostensibly "prostate cancer" but it took him rapidly). HE wanted me, a straight man, to leave my wife and move in with him! He promised to send me to Zurich for training. And, he sent me therapy clients for my new practice (including seminarians) but he took kick-backs from me!
After he died I entered analysis with a female analyst during which time I had accrued enough analytical hours to interview for analytic training myself. When I, and everyone from my city was rejected for training I stopped analysis (which was $130 per session in 1990). I encountered that therapist a year or so later at a workshop and she wrapped her arms around me saying that she missed me.
I have always endeavored to be impeccably ethical with my clients with one exception, when I was only practicing for only one year. I had visited a female client in a hospital and gave her a peck on her cheek right in front of her attending cardiologist. But months later when we ended her therapy while we stood on the driveway in broad daylight I kissed her on her lips! She immediately recoiled and said "You kissed me!" at which I thought as fast as I could and quipped "Well, I didn't use my tongue." She seemed to relax and that was that. I never kissed another client but I had just begun to work full-time in junior high schools so that fact took care of further indiscretions. Once in a while a therapy client will reach out to hug me (Gay men included), but that's the extent of it. I have never flirted with a client since that one kiss in 1986.
Maintaining an impeccable reputation is not only valuable in itself but having worked with adolescents for 27 years sometimes brought attempts to attack me by angry parents. One, for example wrote my principal that I was doing sexual things with her 13 year old daughter. This was retribution for me having called Child and Family Services on the mother when her daughter showed me choke marks on her pale neck and said her mother tried to strangle her. The girl had choked herself! Some of her girlfriends came to me in the morning before school began the next day to say that Karla's mom is trying to get me fired because they saw the mom writing the letter. Fortunately, my principal tossed the letter and the woman did not call the police (which they would have had to respond to even if for false reporting).
There was an adult court-mandated client who came on to me in a dark stairwell, a 14 year old girl who pushed me into a corner and said "I have needs," and a few other adolescents who either sprawled out on my desk, rolled around on the floor, tried to sit on my lap, or pressed up against me while I sat at the edge of a desk. A few discovered where I lived after they had moved onto high school, bypassed security and barged into my apartment. "15 will get you 30!" One remembered me and phoned me from a Central American country to see if I was available when she was 'of-age.' Flattering, she was coming to my city and wanted to hook-up, but I was engaged at the time. I have never violated my professional and personal ethics in the ensuing years but I have heard of all kinds of violations from people. In my state, a therapist can Never get with a former client sexually or risk losing his license. That differs in other states. BUT, I am married and now I'm married and old! Divorce is not good for me either.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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PTreeDish



Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 353
Last seen: 3 months, 15 days
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: laughingdog]
#26518668 - 03/05/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: I was feeling baffled. After watching "I am not your Guru" and then seeing Bandler teaching in numerous videos on Youtube. He is certainly very smart, but like Marlin Brando, seems to be going through a strange process over which he has no control, while he teaches other people how to manipulate others and themselves. But as its not in your field of interest there is no point in pursing this matter.
How large is your list of options from which you select the best match? And which varieties of therapy seem most effective to you?
"I'll try and find the study and link to it when I get a chance." If you find a link you like re: Interpersonal Neurobiology, I'm still interested.
Who said it isn't in my field of interest? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, ideas and experiences which is why I opened the thread. My lack of knowledge or experience on a subject doesn't preclude my potential interest.
I don't have a "list" that I recommend. My work usually leads me towards helping certain people discover that therapy is an option to address deeper underlying issues that go beyond what I'm paid to do. As to whatever flavor of therapy they want to choose, that's up to them - who am I or anyone to say what will or won't work for people?
I try and educate them on what I know and have experienced with what the science says about how the brain works and heals itself, in addition to trying to embody the safe, trusting and empathetic, and non-judgmental relationship they should look for in whomever they seek out for help.
I hope that answers your question. It's really not in my purview to analyze and opine on the merits of all the approaches. Instead, I try my best to teach the science and my experiences, being open and honest about my own biases and faults, and then just try to be present with everything and everyone else.
OK - some studies. Thanks for reminding me because I almost forgot. There really are too many to mention but here are a few worth diving into.
- 1: Fishbane MD. Healing Intergenerational Wounds: An Integrative Relational-Neurobiological Approach.
Fam Process. 2019 Dec;58(4):796-818. doi: 10.1111/famp.12488. Epub 2019 Sep 13. PubMed PMID: 31518458.
- 2: Siegel DJ. The mind in psychotherapy: An interpersonal neurobiology framework for understanding and cultivating mental health.
Psychol Psychother. 2019 Jun;92(2):224-237. doi: 10.1111/papt.12228. Review. PubMed PMID: 31001926.
- 3: Raissa M. Miller and Casey A. Barrio Minton (2016) Experiences Learning Interpersonal Neurobiology: An Interpretative Phenomenological Analysis.
Journal of Mental Health Counseling: January 2016, Vol. 38, No. 1, pp. 47-61.
- 4: Hutterer J, Liss M. Cognitive development, memory, trauma, treatment: An integration of psychoanalytic and behavioral concepts in light of current neuroscience research.
J Am Acad Psychoanal Dyn Psychiatry. 2006 Summer;34(2):287-302. PubMed PMID: 16780411.
- 5: Jack De Stefano and Shawna Atkins (2017) Nonsuicidal Self-Injury, Interpersonal Neurobiology, and Attachment: Implications for Counselors and Therapists.
Journal of Mental Health Counseling: October 2017, Vol. 39, No. 4, pp. 289-304.
- 6: Dr. Dan Siegel (1999) The Developing Mind, Third Edition: How Relationships and the Brain Interact to Shape Who We Are
There are many more and you might need a subscription to view a couple of these. My city library card grants me access to a trove of academic journals, so that may be an option to explore if needed.
I also highly recommend reading some of the books in the Norton Series on Interpersonal Neurobiology if you want to go deeper on your intellectual understanding.
Edited by PTreeDish (03/05/20 11:19 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: PTreeDish]
#26519016 - 03/05/20 04:11 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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can you explain why you include this sentence, which seems authoritive, '"Brains are complex systems that may be defined in mathematical terms. The math of this system indicates a natural push towards integration or a subjective sense of wholeness." - Dr. Dan Siegel, 1999 (The Developing Mind, Third Edition: How Relationships and the Brain Interact to Shape Who We Are)'
the natural push could be something in physics, but what would be an unnatural push, or is it natural because he is invoking 'wholistics' later on?
I was not aware that there is a mathematics of subjective senses, or wholeness, as in completeness or togetherness. Certainly we have imaginary numbers, but the fuzzy edges of these words don't seem solid enough to hitch onto mathematical formulae.
I am aware of the value of therapy, but always disgruntled by alternative truths vaguely using the name of science or math for authority.
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Sandala
Noob Shroomer

Registered: 02/20/20
Posts: 197
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: PTreeDish]
#26519057 - 03/05/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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redgreenvines said: not really, but I get where you are coming from, In my model there is just mind. subconscious has no place at all, the mind has memory; and evrything that happens in mind happens because of association, i.e. what happened together, and what is like unto something else that has already been experienced. More than one connection may be instrumental in a de3cision, and this may seem obscure, so the logical construct of subconscious is invoked to explain everything that is not obvious. In that way it is like god.
equally, ego has no place, the stream of consciousness needs no ego or subconscious to function, habits, however are the basis for all associative behavior. what is repeated becomes more strongly associated with the conditions in which it is repeated. more strongly linked.
what we call ego is usually just defensive habits.
Interesting stuff!
I dunno, there's a part of me I call self/pure consciousness that can kinda stand back and observe another part getting triggered, and more recently even step in to acknowledge the emotion before it's actioned, later I can meditate on it and kinda have a conversation between both parts, working out what triggered the emotion, I feel this work has helped control, or at least lesson the anxiety issue. I feel this 'self' part can also kinda stand back observing the streams of random thoughts wafting through as a kinda seperate entity.
I feel this fits the current model I'm working with so I'm sticking to it for now, always open to modify it with further experiences so it's always a work in progress.
San.
-------------------- My Noob Journal
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PTreeDish



Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 353
Last seen: 3 months, 15 days
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: redgreenvines]
#26519090 - 03/05/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Sure thing. I think reading the chapter from where I found this information would provide more context and meaning. As for as authority, it's not a claim I'm personally making but one written by a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School of Medicine and executive director of the Mindsight Institute.
Here is what the book referencing this quote and related book says:
Quote:
"One particular principle of brain development guides this book. We know that brains are complex systems, according to the strict mathematical definition of the term. Although the concept of complexity has many facets, one aspect has particular meaning for our endeavor; The theory says that there is an intrinsic push toward integration, or the subjective experience of wholeness, in our neural circuitry...One way of talking about this push towards integration is that complex systems have an innate self-organizing capacity (Cicchett & Rogosch, 1997), and the pattern of that self-organizations involves a balance between processes of differentiation and linage (Siegel, 1999). In terms of our brains, this means that circuits develop their specialize functions in relative isolate, then join together to create (ideally) an increasingly encompassing, harmonious system. This two fold process is called integration." Being a Brain-Wise Therapist: A Practical Guide to Interpersonal Neurobiology, Bonnie Badenoch
Note: I added the link to "complex systems".
Edited by PTreeDish (03/05/20 04:56 PM)
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: PTreeDish]
#26519369 - 03/05/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Re: 'OK - some studies. Thanks for reminding me because I almost forgot. There really are too many to mention but here are a few worth diving into. '
Thanks for the links
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: PTreeDish] 1
#26519753 - 03/05/20 10:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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My therapist employs listening and asking some general questions about my wellbeing. He then provides his views and recommendations on what benefits me.
Your only role is being honest. You're there to help yourself, with a therapist who can provide feedback for moving forward.
I am there to listen and do the same.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 53 minutes, 57 seconds
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: sudly]
#26519852 - 03/06/20 01:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Your only role is being honest. You're there to help yourself, with a therapist who can provide feedback for moving forward.
I often tell my therapist when I don't want to be honest with her.
I've been seeing Jennifer for 7 years and if there's something I'm reluctant to talk to her about, it's a very important issue for me!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: Sandala]
#26519950 - 03/06/20 04:10 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sandala said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: not really, but I get where you are coming from, In my model there is just mind. subconscious has no place at all, the mind has memory; and evrything that happens in mind happens because of association, i.e. what happened together, and what is like unto something else that has already been experienced. More than one connection may be instrumental in a de3cision, and this may seem obscure, so the logical construct of subconscious is invoked to explain everything that is not obvious. In that way it is like god.
equally, ego has no place, the stream of consciousness needs no ego or subconscious to function, habits, however are the basis for all associative behavior. what is repeated becomes more strongly associated with the conditions in which it is repeated. more strongly linked.
what we call ego is usually just defensive habits.
Interesting stuff!
I dunno, there's a part of me I call self/pure consciousness that can kinda stand back and observe another part getting triggered, and more recently even step in to acknowledge the emotion before it's actioned, later I can meditate on it and kinda have a conversation between both parts, working out what triggered the emotion, I feel this work has helped control, or at least lesson the anxiety issue. I feel this 'self' part can also kinda stand back observing the streams of random thoughts wafting through as a kinda seperate entity.
I feel this fits the current model I'm working with so I'm sticking to it for now, always open to modify it with further experiences so it's always a work in progress.
San.
If you have a system that works for you - great! I am not interested in undermining your neatly role based deconstruction of your functional existence.
In yoga, there are chakras, not the same but also a proposition for health oriented work.
I consider both to be projected models, which is fine, just inaccurate.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
sudly said:
Your only role is being honest. You're there to help yourself, with a therapist who can provide feedback for moving forward.
I often tell my therapist when I don't want to be honest with her.
I've been seeing Jennifer for 7 years and if there's something I'm reluctant to talk to her about, it's a very important issue for me!
I'm not saying to give them your KFC secret sauce recipe but to be open enough for them to have an idea of what you're going through.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: sudly]
#26521749 - 03/07/20 07:14 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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editing your therapy sounds very gamey to me
the opportunity for honesty is missed
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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If someone is sexually or physically assaulted or they've gone through some sort of traumatic event they may not want to go into detail.
And if there are multiple issues, it might be okay to work on one at a time or?
I mean I don't think my therapist is there to cure me of everything and make me smile from ear to ear, but I do think they're there to listen to my woes and my triumphs and to tell me my options.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: sudly]
#26522341 - 03/07/20 02:40 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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so you think that your issues have no interconnection?
just as you did not get to choose your afflictions, you do not really get to choose what gets fixed first; this is not pick-up sticks, it is conditioned life.
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