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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26515648 - 03/03/20 11:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PTreeDish said:
....

I should say that I am a huge advocate of folks seeing a mental health professional, but the field is still rife with issues that end up hurting a lot of people. Some of what I do for a living is involved in helping folks find the right kind of help to avoid these kinds of issues. Would be great to hear your thoughts.




.    Recently watched, on Netflix, The film about Tony Robbins' huge seminars, titled: " I am not your Guru". It is very interesting, but at the end I really didn't know what to make of it. In some ways it seems similar to huge religious faith healing events.
.    Seems Tony got some of his chops from NLP, which is also odd in some ways. NLP must have made its founders both rich & famous, but is now listed as a pseudo science on wiki.
.  R. Bandler one of the founders is now not fat but actually obese, which is strange for someone who claims you can model anything. Yet his students (followers?) still seem overly respectful. Perhaps Erickson is turning over in his grave?
.    Anyway wondering if you've seen the film, and what you make of Tony & Bandler & NLP.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26515733 - 03/04/20 01:48 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

therapy is dope as fuck

one meeting a week can mean wether one has it bad that week or ok

for psychiatric patients this can happen

when one is a psychiatric patient it is important to see a person from the commune like as part of a healt care thing

it's free in denmark

like high school and college and primary school

it's important to see someone seeing you and relating to you in a seemingly well meaning way

they look after you

self sabotage and mental illness comes from abandoning yourself and abondining the things you got to do to not become ill

it's very common sense

plants need water and air and sunlight

in the same way we need to not do drugs and meditate and do yoga and make art and have a job


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26515861 - 03/04/20 05:11 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

great update Ferdinando


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: laughingdog]
    #26516348 - 03/04/20 11:42 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

PTreeDish said:
....

I should say that I am a huge advocate of folks seeing a mental health professional, but the field is still rife with issues that end up hurting a lot of people. Some of what I do for a living is involved in helping folks find the right kind of help to avoid these kinds of issues. Would be great to hear your thoughts.




.    Recently watched, on Netflix, The film about Tony Robbins' huge seminars, titled: " I am not your Guru". It is very interesting, but at the end I really didn't know what to make of it. In some ways it seems similar to huge religious faith healing events.
.    Seems Tony got some of his chops from NLP, which is also odd in some ways. NLP must have made its founders both rich & famous, but is now listed as a pseudo science on wiki.
.  R. Bandler one of the founders is now not fat but actually obese, which is strange for someone who claims you can model anything. Yet his students (followers?) still seem overly respectful. Perhaps Erickson is turning over in his grave?
.    Anyway wondering if you've seen the film, and what you make of Tony & Bandler & NLP.





I've seen it and I have nothing against Tony Robbins or other motivational speakers. There's a market for them, but sadly, there are also many charlatans that promise if you just keep upgrading and buying into the next "level", you'll somehow get even closer to accomplishing your objectives.

These def. aren't therapy. As we discussed, true therapy involves a real relationship and being together as the experiences of life unfolds over time. You just can't get that from reading a motivation book or attending a seminar, etc.

I'm not saying don't do it, but know what those things are and set your expectations accordingly. Maybe you need some motivation or inspiration or to be connected with like-minded community. There's nothing wrong with that.

Millions of people watch Joel Osteen each week. But do I think watching Joel Osteen on TV or in-person (as I have done many times) is going to bring long-lasting change or healing to underlying trauma? The science suggests no because of what we know about how interpersonal relationships are key to changing the brain.


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26516353 - 03/04/20 11:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Beautifully put. I always tell people we go to the gym to stay fit and work out our bodies, why don't we feel the same about brains / well-being / relationships?

Going to therapy is like going to the gym for our brains.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26516458 - 03/04/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PTreeDish said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

PTreeDish said:

.    R. Bandler one of the founders is [now beyond fat & actually] obese, which is strange for someone who claims you can model anything. Yet his students (followers?) still seem overly respectful. Perhaps Erickson is turning over in his grave?
.    Anyway wondering ... what you make of ... Bandler & NLP.
...  Perhaps Erickson is turning over in his grave?




I've seen it and I have nothing against Tony Robbins or other motivational speakers. There's a market for them,....
These def. aren't therapy. ....




.    I agree such huge events are not therapy. And thank you for addressing that point.
.    I still don't know what to make of NLP.
.    On the one hand, Tony does pull off some remarkable interactive moments in the movie.
.    Also NLP teachings & books about Erickson's use of language are fascinating and insightful.
.    Yet watching Bandler on Youtube, as he puts on more and more weight over the years ( to a point that is extremely unhealthy) and is never challenged on anything, from his students - ever; is really strange. As are the claims about what can be modeled.
.    I wonder if you have any further thoughts on these contradictory aspects, of NLP which (outside of Tony's enormous & expensive seminars), does claim to be a therapy, as well as being claimed to be a tool with other uses, that also explains much of our psychology.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26516475 - 03/04/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think there is no shortcut to reconnecting with one's body and what is happening.
even a very young child needs to be able to relax, and if this is not possible something must be done.

all the messiahs and their teachings are a sideshow with respect to what must be done. a practitioner of therapy has to be able to help calm down and help reconnect what has become loose. Any type of therapy has to do this minimally.


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26517366 - 03/04/20 08:38 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PTreeDish said:
I don't think therapy is the solution for everyone or an escape from thinking for yourself. If anything, better understanding yourself helps you think more clearly.

But the way you talk about it, I'm wondering if you don't just distrust other people in general with your feelings? If that's how you feel, I wonder what your life experiences must have been to create these feelings. I have nothing but empathy and kindness for you because if what I just said rings true, I can only imagine how difficult life must have been for you and how alone you must have been the whole time.





On the contrary, distrusting other people with my feelings and knowing my self are too different things. The main concern with therapists are people like you..if all therapist were helpful, non egotistical people; then yes therapy would be a helpful process. Now back to my point, instead of considering the option that I am entirely open with myself; so open with myself. That I am able to read and interpret myself at a subconscious level. Meaning I am self efficient, an independent working gear if you may. So...instead you feel the need to make your self..meaning feed your ego, by trying to put your self above I; by saying I am unable to be open with my feelings to others around I. You think you can use false symphony and concern to portray good intentions..grow up.


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26517444 - 03/04/20 09:15 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The main concern with therapists are people like you



Can you explain what you mean?

I hear you; though, but I think your thinking is rigid on this topic, which is a symptom (and that's OK - no judgement here) of trauma - or if you don't like that word, life experiences which have disconnected the part of yourself, and it is there, that can trust and depend on other people. I'm not suggesting that you are, but as an example, diagnosed sociopaths are known to exhibit the same symptom in a spectrum of severity.

What you wrote implies because some therapist aren't helpful, then the whole practice has no value. I'm generally curious if that's also how you feel about relationships with other people in general? Just because some people betray us or hurt us doesn't mean everyone else we might meet in the future will do the same; however, the brain doesn't always feel that way. Our feelings and emotions emerge from our subconscious and we don't have control over them in the same way we do with conscious intellectual thought.

Quote:

That I am able to read and interpret myself at a subconscious level.




I get what you're trying to say, but I say to you, in the most kindest way, this is not what you are doing and the brain doesn't work that way. You cannot be mindful of what yourself is doing at a subconscious level because mindfulness is a conscious activity. Also, you can't make a fair assessment of yourself without comparing it to something else that might be better. And you can't do that without experiences and feedback from external relationships.

Quote:

Meaning I am self efficient, an independent working gear if you may.



I don't doubt that you are. Self-sufficient people are often born from an environment where they had no one they could rely on and so they develop an adaptation that basically says, "If I don't need anyone, they can't hurt me." And some of these people go on to accomplish great things in the material world (career, accomplishments, etc) but eventually, they realize no amount of money, power, esteem fills the innate desire of the mind to have meaningful trusting connections with others.

I know you don't know me and I don't know you, but what you say is resonating quite strongly with my heart. I'm very curious to know about you, your background, how your relationship with your parents is/was and what is life generally like for you.

Your self-reliant attitude, feeling that if you need to depend on someone else or rely on another, it's only from your ego (judgement / shame) are all signs of trauma that can and will lead eventually to emotional distress in your internal world (if they haven't already).

For what it is worth, you don't need to be alone in how you live your life and I am 100% positive that you can change that. There are levels of happiness you probably cannot imagine that await you as soon as you decide to work on healing whatever it is that is causing you to feel like you cannot rely or trust anyone else but yourself. Will it be easy? No way. You'll have to accept and tear down some really big walls that you've built to protect yourself and I'm guessing you had good reason to do so. It's a worthwhile fight friend.

I send nothing but kindness, positivity and care your way. I do hope it is OK that I'm saying this and I'm completely OK if you want to disagree. If you do ever desire to chat more about this, I welcome a PM.


Edited by PTreeDish (03/04/20 09:52 PM)


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: laughingdog]
    #26517471 - 03/04/20 09:23 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

No, Tony isn't therapy. If he's claiming his seminars are therapy, which I doubt he is because that bring on some serious liability issues. I don't think he's a board-certified licensed therapist, but I could absolutely be wrong about that. Anyway, it's not therapy because of the relationship requirement as previously mentioned.

Quote:

Tony does pull off some remarkable interactive moments in the movie.




Absolutely, there's no denying he's good at what he does. Part of being a great leader, speaker, motivator is invoking an emotional experience with your audience. If your audience also happens to be searching for this, which I'd say most of his attendees are, then they are ripe for the pickin'. People are suffering and searching for anything that makes them feel inspired and hopeful. Tony has the ability to do that. But the effects are short-lived and ultimately won't address deeply seated emotional wounds that are likely to be the real underlying reasons for so many who seek out his seminar in the first place.

If I may ask, why is it so important to you that you decide on how you feel about NLP? I ask because it sounds like you have invested a bit of time and energy into learning about it. Let's say you come to the conclusion that you no longer feel about NLP the way you once used to, how would you feel about that if you don't mind me asking?

Re: the weight gain. I guess I would respond with, do you find it hard to trust people with visible flaws? I can totally understand the feeling of not wanting to trust an overweight fitness instructor, but I think I could trust an overweight therapist. Therapists are certainly not immune to the human experience and full of the same contradictions and wounds. I think what you must be implying is that if he hasn't addressed or worked through his issues with over-eating, then it's a little hard to trust the information he's giving about NLP?

I mean, that's a fair criticism. But if you don't think Tony Robbins or the many other professional therapists out there have these contradictions, that's def. not true. Many therapists are brought to the field because of their own healing journey. Some of the most best looking, successful, powerful, wealthy of my clients present the idea of perfection to the world, but their inner-world is an utter mess and they are miserable. You seem bright so I'm prob not saying anything you don't already know.

I know I wouldn't want a therapist who didn't have first-hand experience with the healing journey struggle. I'd venture the therapy would also fail because it would be difficult to establish a healthy attachment between the two and that's critical to effective therapy.



Edited by PTreeDish (03/04/20 09:42 PM)


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26517483 - 03/04/20 09:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

A little tip for those who are seeking a new therapist and want a clue about whether or not they are worth their salt, ask them if they go to therapy themselves. Any good therapist will say that having their own therapist is a crucial part of their effectiveness with their clients.


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26517681 - 03/04/20 11:00 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

So, I actually have had mostly negative experiences. In my early 20's I was seeing a therapist who was in her early 30's and whose husband was overseas with the military. I would vent about my shyness and inability to talk to girls and notice she was just staring at my chest and arms. One day, I told her I'd like to have a lot of kids and she said "So, do you use protection or do you just do it bare?" and when she said it she lifted her butt up off the chair as if to motion like if I was fucking her. I'm normally not too offended by that kind of thing but because it was clear she was never even listening and just seemed to want to fuck me, I left. Two weeks later, I swear this is true, she e-mailed me asking if I missed her.

Years later I had another young therapist. I didn't get vibes off of her but was struggling with paranoia (to her credit, she was the one that told me, that's paranoia not social anxiety). I told her I was always afraid of being seen as a potential stalker/rapist/murderer/child molester/creeper etc. One day, she asked me to explain the thoughts associated with it. I said "I worry about absurd things. For example, I'm wearing jeans today because I was afraid that if I wore joggers you might see something and then think I have a small penis and then judge me and mock me with the other therapists. I know that's absurd that you would even do that, but paranoia isn't rational." The next session she was being all cold and was like "That was very inappropriate and I feel it's my duty to re acknowledge the patient-therapist boundaries here." It almost escalated to an argument when I said "I explained that I'm constantly paranoid about being falsely judged for things and then you're judging me for something that clearly was not aimed at being flirty or crossing boundaries." Instead of taking the criticism she just crossed her arms and bounced her crossed legs giving me one word answers until I felt like I was there to make her feel better.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Do you go to therapy? [Re: Darwin23]
    #26517705 - 03/04/20 11:17 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Indeed many therapists don't have much self awareness. The best chiropractor I ever went to was not a chiropractor, but a massage therapist. Often such things are a matter of having a gift, & not of having a certification.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26517731 - 03/04/20 11:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PTreeDish said:
....

Re: the weight gain. I guess I would respond with, do you find it hard to trust people with visible flaws? ...






.  Only if they tell other folks they can get rid of all their flaws, model and do anything to a high standard, start a movement, and make millions of dollars off them, while blatantly being so self sabotaging as to be shortening their own life expectancy.
.  Not really hard to understand. No need to look for hidden unconscious motivations, on my part here, as you seem to imply. Would you, (who say you  are a skeptic), simply ignore such facts, if you were curious about a therapy?
.    As i said some of the NLP material is good, and the contradictions seem a bit of a mystery.
.    I had thought that perhaps your being a mental health professional (particularly with your area of expertise), and NLP being largely based on perhaps the most famous and respected hypnotist ever, and NLP still being very much in the public eye after all these years, that you might have some familiarity, with the obvious contradictions & history surrounding it.


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OfflinePTreeDish
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: laughingdog]
    #26517764 - 03/05/20 12:14 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

  • Only if they tell other folks they can get rid of all their flaws, model and do anything to a high standard, start a movement, and make millions of dollars off them, while blatantly being so self sabotaging as to be shortening their own life expectancy.
  • .  Not really hard to understand. No need to look for hidden unconscious motivations, on my part here, as you seem to imply. Would you, (who say you  are a skeptic), simply ignore such facts, if you were curious about a therapy?
  • .    As i said some of the NLP material is good, and the contradictions seem a bit of a mystery.
  • .    I had thought that perhaps your being a mental health professional (particularly with your area of expertise), and NLP being largely based on perhaps the most famous and respected hypnotist ever, and NLP still being very much in the public eye after all these years, that you might have some familiarity, with the obvious contradictions & history surrounding it.


If that's what this gentleman was doing, then of course, I don't support that or think it's healthy - whether its NLP he's preaching or anything else.

I have no intention or suspicions. I just wanted to know more about how you were feeling so I could best match my answer to what you're after.

Sorry, I don't have much experience with NLP directly. I'm aware of it, but it's not what I do and I never recommend it for what it's is worth.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: PTreeDish]
    #26517809 - 03/05/20 01:15 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I was feeling baffled. After watching "I am not your Guru" and then seeing Bandler teaching in numerous videos on Youtube. He is certainly very smart, but like Marlin Brando, seems to be going through a strange process over which he has no control, while he teaches other people how to manipulate others and themselves. But as its not in your field of interest there is no point in pursing this matter.

How large is your list of options from which you select the best match?
And which varieties of therapy seem most effective to you?

"I'll try and find the study and link to it when I get a chance."
If you find a link you like re: Interpersonal Neurobiology, I'm still interested.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: laughingdog]
    #26517971 - 03/05/20 05:21 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

my strangeness is that I do not believe in the subconscious.
I do believe in consciousness, however, and in mind. I think that what most of us call subconscious is mind's ordinary associative process that elicits reflexive resonance from memory by stimuli.

I think therapy works when it makes connections for people that feel disconnected, but all psychology/psychiatry is still in infancy, and the DSM-5 is unworthy of the paper on which it is printed. It is still a science without a working scientific model or premise.


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OfflineSandala
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26518152 - 03/05/20 07:56 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Very interesting conversation.

I had therapy when I was 11yo, I'd stole some money from my parents as part of a plan to run away from home, they weren't bothered about me wanting to run away from home, only that I'd stole money. The guy was useless, after a few weeks talk therapy stopped, didn't feel I'd got anywhere since he wasn't interested in why I wanted to leave home, only who was influencing me to steal money (the motive was purly to escape the toxic home environment). A few weeks later I thought things at home were improving, trust had started to build up again, then out of the blue this therapist turned up and all that trust was completely destroyed again.

I first tried to run away from home when I was about 5yo, My mother helped me pack a huge suitcase I couldn't even lift, I got to the end of the drive and sat there crying, while my mother watched from the window laughing.

I eventually got out and joined the Forces, the camaradarie and feeling part of something important with healthy interpersonal realtionships probably saved me from serious mental illness. That was 30yrs ago.

I developed an interest in psychology about 15 yrs ago, I'd noticed I had issues around certain types of people, after an altercation with a particulaly difficult customer someone explained he was a 'typical Narcissist' so I started reading about narcisissim. I became a bit of an expert on it, but it only served to set off more emotional alarm bells as I was hyper aware when someone displayed traits high on the Narc scale.

It wasn't until I'd gone through a particurly stressful couple of years, part of which was becomming the focus of grandiose Narc neighbour, that I developed depression and anxiety. I soon realised the lack of useful public health service (UK) treatment meant I had to focus on sorting it out myself, that's when I turned my focus back to my childhood and realised my Mother had been a covert narc, my father was co-dependant, and I was the scapegoat child to my 'golden child' sibling. No wonder i got fucked up.

Mindfulness meditation helps, tho I'm still working through some nebulous issues, anxiety has diminished, I live quite remote so getting out into the community once a week playing guitar for open mic nights has also helped reduce the depression, but something is still preventing me getting to sleep easily, even with guided meditation & sleep hypnosis tracks.

I read a lot about Psilocybin trials and the theraputic benefits achieved, which started me off on a new research path back on November, and here we are.

I've had two half hour sessions with a public health talk therapist, I'm booked in for a couple more sessions, but it looks like the pressure on the service means she has to triage her client list to focus on those in most need, and I don't think we're going to get very far in 3 sessions, especially when everything seems so rushed and she seems more focused on her watch.


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My Noob Journal


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OfflineSandala
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26518182 - 03/05/20 08:22 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
my strangeness is that I do not believe in the subconscious.
I do believe in consciousness, however, and in mind. I think that what most of us call subconscious is mind's ordinary associative process that elicits reflexive resonance from memory by stimuli.




That's an interesting view, I wouldn't say 'I don't believe in the subconscious' but what you said still resonates.

My current view is that there are 3 sperate parts to the 'mind' 1. the self, pure consciousness. 2. The ego, or self image; which is heavily influenced by 3. the subconcious, a 'library' of emotional reactions or their subconscious interpretation, based on flight/fight/freeze/fawn  response to outside influence, I think this is where architypes come in too, especially the early subconscious 'memories' formed before we had sufficient language or experience to properly understand or catagorize them, but these still have a strong influence on ego.

I think that's kinda what you said, but we have different labels/classificaitons.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you go to therapy? & strangeness in the field [Re: Sandala]
    #26518595 - 03/05/20 12:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

not really, but I get where you are coming from, In my model there is just mind.
subconscious has no place at all, the mind has memory; and evrything that happens in mind happens because of association, i.e. what happened together, and what is like unto something else that has already been experienced. More than one connection may be instrumental in a de3cision, and this may seem obscure, so the logical construct of subconscious is invoked to explain everything that is not obvious. In that way it is like god.

equally, ego has no place, the stream of consciousness needs no ego or subconscious to function, habits, however are the basis for all associative behavior. what is repeated becomes more strongly associated with the conditions in which it is repeated. more strongly linked.

what we call ego is usually just defensive habits.


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