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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26511169 - 03/01/20 10:35 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Completely false.  Protection is far more robust in the u.s.  That order would never fly here.




I'm going to agree with Enlil on the subject of freedom of speech in the U.S. vs Canada. I remember thinking about this in earlier arguments over whether some people should be banned from this forum. I thought Shiva was coming from the Canadian point of view, which like some European countries, legally bans some forms of speech. I have completely mixed feelings about that. Personally I guess I don't think that much about the law, but rather my opinions vary on each different issue. As I've said before I'm much more pragmatist than principled.

The U.S. doesn't really ban much except kiddie porn, and even then not the written word, just pictures. And I don't know how much I agree with that law, arresting people for obtaining pictures alone, even though I do know the correlation between people obtaining those pictures and sexual abuse of children as far as that person is concerned, besides the circumstances in which the pictures were taken, which should be illegal. I'm just saying to the best of my knowledge, Canada is definitely more restrictive of speech than the U.S. Political speech is either protected here, or it's the same as this forum where you can get away with it depending on how you phrase it.

On the subject of the rail blockade I'm decidedly siding with Shiva and I think his comparing it to a labor movement strike is a good accurate observation. It would be nice if a simple peaceful protest could change things but that's seldom enough. Social movement action almost always require coercion to be effective. Yes, the rail blockade is definitely having negative economic effects on people such as farmers who are external to the original conflict. The weaker party must employ tactics that work for their structural situation. It's the same reason parties resort to terrorism, but thankfully that hasn't happened here, and I think both sides are looking for a resolution that ends in peaceful coexistence, but just as with major strikes, that might not be the result.

I wrote this after a really long night of partying, and I apologize if this is a bad post.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26511191 - 03/01/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

It's not a bad post, but it still is an "ends justify the means" argument.  Such arguments will work with people who believe that ends can justify means.  For people like myself, such an argument will never be persuasive. 

It certainly won't be the first time we've disagreed, and I sincerely hope it isn't the last, but disagree we must.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26511210 - 03/01/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry Enlil but direct action gets the goods.

Proposed agreement reached between Wets’uwet’en chiefs, gov’t ministers after 3 days of talks

Quote:

A tentative agreement on land rights and title has been reached between Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs and government ministers, bringing three long days of negotiations in northern B.C. to an end and resolving a longstanding dispute over the First Nation’s traditional territory.

The chiefs reached the agreement late Saturday night in Smithers, B.C., with federal Crown-Indigenous Relations Minister Carolyn Bennett and her B.C. counterpart Scott Fraser.

The details of the agreement have not been released. The ministers and chiefs agreed that the agreement will be shown to all members of the Wet’suwet’en Nation first before the ministers return to Smithers for a signing if it is agreed upon.




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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26511215 - 03/01/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Sounds like negotiation is what accomplished it.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 6
    #26511236 - 03/01/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The only reason these negotiations finally occurred was because of the direct action campaign. Failure to recognize this requires willful ignorance on your part.

Wet'suwet'en land rights and title have been an open question since the Delgamuukw decision was handed down by the Supreme Court of Canada in 1997. Delgamuukw, which was brought by the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs and their Gitxsan neighbours, saw the court acknowledge the existence of Aboriginal title as an exclusive and ancestral right to the land, which remains unextinguished. However, the ruling did not recognize specifically what lands belong to the Wet’suwet’en. The judges found there was a defect in the pleadings and sent it back to trial, suggesting at the same time that goodwill negotiations could be a better way to resolve the questions it was being asked.

Those negotiations never happened, leading to years of complaints from the Wet’suwet’en and Indigenous advocates that the province was delaying them in order to protect the resource extraction industry from the ruling’s ramifications.

Over two decades waiting for the Canadian government to come to the negotiating table in good faith. Nothing.

Less than a month of economically crippling blockades and here we are. Direct action gets the goods.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26511241 - 03/01/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Whatever the reason,  I hope for the best for everyone, including those people harmed by the blockades.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil]
    #26511288 - 03/01/20 11:57 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
On the subject of the rail blockade I'm decidedly siding with Shiva and I think his comparing it to a labor movement strike is a good accurate observation. It would be nice if a simple peaceful protest could change things but that's seldom enough. Social movement action almost always require coercion to be effective.



I'm going to agree with Shivas as well.

Quote:

Enlil said:
It's not a bad post, but it still is an "ends justify the means" argument.  Such arguments will work with people who believe that ends can justify means.  For people like myself, such an argument will never be persuasive.



Doesn't it depend on the means though?  If we're talking about killing thousands of people, then I would agree the means don't justify the ends.  If we're talking about striking or economic harm, then it depends on the specific harm done.  From your own example, I think most of us would agree that breaking into private houses and taking things would be wrong.  But where that line is varies from person to person.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Sounds like negotiation is what accomplished it.



Sounds like it was the uprising that accomplished the negotiations.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26511303 - 03/01/20 12:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Doesn't it depend on the means though? 




Of course not.  If the means are just, the ends don't matter.  If the means are unjust, the ends don't make them just.

Is blockading a train full of jews being taken to a concentration camp just?  Yes.  The means don't make it just, the action itself is just.  Blockading a train full of food for humans is unjust.  That your purpose is to correct some unrelated harm doesn't suddenly make it just.

Where is the line for you, Falcon?  If you had a way to cure AIDS, and all you needed was one million dollars, would bank robbery be justified if the proceeds all went to cure aids?

Taking a shortcut that harms people in order to accomplish your goals is wrong.  You can claim victory all you want, but people were harmed.  I'd bet dollars to donuts that these scumbags running the blockades will never lift a fucking finger to help those that they harmed.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil]
    #26511317 - 03/01/20 12:24 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You can claim victory all you want, but people were harmed.



Who's claiming victory?  I simply said I personally agree the means sometimes justify the ends.

If it required one million dollars to cure AIDS, and the only way to get that million was to rob a bank, then I'd say the means were justified.  If there were better ways to get the million, then maybe not.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26511331 - 03/01/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You can claim victory all you want, but people were harmed.



Who's claiming victory? 



Shivas
Quote:


If it required one million dollars to cure AIDS, and the only way to get that million was to rob a bank, then I'd say the means were justified.  If there were better ways to get the million, then maybe not.




Is that the situation here?  Is blockading the food supply of tens of thousands of people the ONLY way to get this situation resolved?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil]
    #26511338 - 03/01/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Is blockading the food supply of tens of thousands of people the ONLY way to get this situation resolved?



I don't know.  Can you propose a better way?


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Invisiblesh4d0ws
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #26511340 - 03/01/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

"People were harmed"

I don't know anybody who was harmed. I live in a city where the neighboring town had a long standing rail blockade that was ultimately taken down when the OPP arrested the protesters. I'm sure it disrupted a lot of shit but besides freight (& please understand nobody went hungry) there were a lot of passenger train cancellations. Unfortunate that people that were traveling to see family, or perhaps for work, got screwed over. But, if those people needed to travel I'm sure they made other arrangements (bus, flight, car, etc.) and on top of that, VIA rail would refund, obviously, any tickets that weren't fulfilled...

So I gotta ask dude, How was anybody harmed? Like, what is your argument for this? Economically harmed how? And who?

Businesses? Individuals? Both?


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: sh4d0ws]
    #26511349 - 03/01/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

1500 rail employees laid off for starters.  That took about 10 seconds to confirm.  I suppose I could look deeper, but that's enough to support my position.

Do you think any of these folks will be receiving a check from these scumbags who blockaded the railroads? 


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #26511370 - 03/01/20 12:59 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The only lesson we should be taking from this is that we, as workers, are considered disposable by these corporations. CN reported several billions in profit last year - they could have easily afforded to continue to pay their employees in good faith, despite any blockade caused slowdown. They instead chose to immediately lay off workers to protect the bottom line.

Be mad at the disposable nature of the worker under capitalism - or I guess you could get angry at the indigenous folks fighting against this same inhumane system as it affects them but that's kind of missing the point.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26511399 - 03/01/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, dude.  Anything to shield you from any responsibility for the suffering you've caused.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #26511420 - 03/01/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Doesn't it depend on the means though? 




Of course not.  If the means are just, the ends don't matter.  If the means are unjust, the ends don't make them just.

Is blockading a train full of jews being taken to a concentration camp just?  Yes.  The means don't make it just, the action itself is just.  Blockading a train full of food for humans is unjust.  That your purpose is to correct some unrelated harm doesn't suddenly make it just.



This seems like some pedantic nonsense. 'Means' refers to the method and 'ends' refers to the desired result. In both your examples the means is 'rail blockade' with the contrasting ends being the specific 'prevent Jewish people from being taken to concentration camps' and the vague 'prevent food from reaching people'. Even in your own examples, the ends apparently changes whether you perceive the means as just.

What if blockading the first train means that the second train is also blocked? What if the second trains food supply was intended for the guards of a concentration camp? What if the people blockading the first train was a mob of antisemites intent on brutally killing the occupants? Events don't happen in a vacuum where it's even possible to make these kind of value judgements that you appear to be demanding from - checks notes - the indigenous peoples fighting for their rights but not the colonial State that created this situation in the first place.

It's easy to demand people wait for the perfect moment that won't cause undue tension or harm before pushing for justice when you aren't the one suffering from the current injustice. Please reread MLK's letter from a Birmingham jail because you are literally the white moderate preferring the negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26511425 - 03/01/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Is blockading the food supply of tens of thousands of people the ONLY way to get this situation resolved?



I don't know.  Can you propose a better way?



Yeah, I too am curious what Enlil would propose.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26511449 - 03/01/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The ends would be stopping jews from getting gassed/stopping a pipeline from being installed on native lands.  The means would be stopping trains from delivering those jews to the gas chambers/stopping trains from delivering food to random people who have nothing to do with the gas pipeline.

Play your rationalization game all you want.  You hurt people to get what you wanted even though the people you hurt had nothing to do with it.  Are you going to make those people whole now or not?  Are you even going to apologize to those people?  Or are those people's wellbeing less important than yours?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26511478 - 03/01/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The only lesson we should be taking from this is that we, as workers, are considered disposable by these corporations. CN reported several billions in profit last year - they could have easily afforded to continue to pay their employees in good faith, despite any blockade caused slowdown. They instead chose to immediately lay off workers to protect the bottom line.



:highfive:


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26511485 - 03/01/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, the level of rationalization in this thread is disgusting.  "I shouldn't be responsible for my actions.  Retirees with money in shares of rail companies should be responsible for my actions."

I'm just so disappointed in some of the people here.


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