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OfflineMr. D Green
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Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is?
    #26510374 - 02/29/20 08:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Can someone give me some pros on allowing religions(cults) to operate? Besides brain washing the masses to create calmness in the presence of chaos or terror...


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26510552 - 02/29/20 11:02 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Not allowing a religion to operate makes it a more aggressive and militant philosophy by nature. Societies that have banned organized religion in the past tend to lean towards a more dogmatic belief structure across the population as a whole and the state which enforces the banning of religions becomes the religion itself, as it must dictate appropriate belief. This is how many existing religions began as organized institutions.

All major religions in the world have a shared trait of historically having gone through a period of persecution. Religious persecution militarizes belief out of survival necessity. By forcing organized belief underground, the focus on that philosophy turns towards survival and longevity rather than on the foundational doctrine or mythology. The religion becomes a powerful force by virtue of organization and hierarchy in order to survive.

It's not a coincidence that the most powerful belief organizations in the world were all persecuted for their beliefs at various points throughout history, were often empowered by their persecutions by necessity, and went on to become highly organized and effective at spreading their religion further.

Religions don't spread because of their mythology and shared belief, they spread because the institutions which promote the belief as a pre-requisite to being a member, have the resources and influence to make being a member of the religion a better life. It is advantageous to be a more cohesive unit, buying into the dogmatic belief structure is par for the course and instills shared understanding and discipline across the organization.

It's also not a coincidence that the most secular societies in the world fall into two categories: those that are authoritarian and promote the state as a means of worship, or societies that have institutional and cultural legal foundations in freedom of religion, speech and assembly. The nations that have freedom of religion tend to have less dogmatic belief structure promoted by the state than nations which use authoritarianism to ban religion. An authoritarian state which is secular tends to be as bad and often worse than a state which only tolerates one religion. A state that allows all religions and expression tends to be more secular.

So to answer the question, some pros on allowing religion to operate are that not allowing them to operate creates the exact kind of atmosphere that you seem to want to avoid.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26510729 - 03/01/20 02:58 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

What's the difference between religion and materialist science?


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26510809 - 03/01/20 05:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

what are rock star cult followings?
what are reality TV star cult followings?

what happens when charisma is emulated?


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26511971 - 03/01/20 08:45 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
What's the difference between religion and materialist science?





Science has backing foundations...1's and 0's
Religion is a bunch of made up thoughts..


Edited by Mr. D Green (03/01/20 08:45 PM)


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #26512000 - 03/01/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I am not talking about taking all the color out of the paintings...just getting rid of all the people that are brain washing the youth. Telling them make believe tall tales and fillings their heads up with false hopes and false confidence...

Thinking for yourself creates a more diverse and free atmosphere...taking away brain washing religion would only give the people more control..not take it away..I am not talking about banning religions/cults...I never said such a thing, I am talking about ceasing their operations..understand the difference?


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26512130 - 03/02/20 12:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. D Green said:
I am not talking about banning religions/cults...I never said such a thing, I am talking about ceasing their operations..understand the difference?



I don't think there have been many instances where religions have been closed for operations indefinitely, but not banned as institutions. Those two things are one and the same as you've described them. Perhaps you could elaborate more cohesively.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Mr. D Green] * 1
    #26512323 - 03/02/20 05:38 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You seem to be assuming that all people wish to think for themselves. Or, that they desire not to have an authority to lean on, such as religion, or science.

Would I be correct in thinking you also consider yourself “unbrainwashed”?

I want to task you over this statement as well: science is facts, religion is imaginary. I think you are not giving enough credit to religion. You dismiss it very quickly as a legitimate human institution, then in the same breath, accept the scientific institution as it is without so much as a whiff of doubt.

If unthinking loyalty to the religious order is brainwashing, why isn’t it equally problematic to put such blind allegiance into the scientific, governmental, cultural orders, etc etc etc ?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #26512338 - 03/02/20 06:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

we need s community to help celebrate births weddings and death maybe, any room will do, but add some stained glass and we're jamming!


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26512892 - 03/02/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

excellent posts from PatrickKn and Shr00mEater, IMO

as Shr00mEater  said:
“You seem to be assuming that all people wish to think for themselves. Or, that they desire not to have an authority to lean on, such as religion, or science.”

.  Indeed many books have challenged the idea that "people wish to think for themselves", as well as sought to explain the nature of belief.

.  Also consider the cases of native or “primitive” societies, where there is no government as we know it, but also no choice or difference between the culture and so called religion.

.  When it is time, everyone dances, drums, & or sings, together. Even for example American Indian tribes to this day. Etc.

.  Many good documentaries, about native cultures, if you haven’t traveled much.

.  As you, Mr. D Green, are intelligent, and the inseparability of culture and so called religion, in native society is well known, I would guess you are emotionally reacting to something, such as the abuses of Scientology, the Jim Jones affair, or any one of many similar examples.

.  Human individuals really cannot be separated from society & culture, no matter how much American culture glorifies individual achievement & its leading to some sort of permanent happiness ( which is, I think, just another belief); We are not fish or reptiles born from eggs & never having family.
.  On the contrary humans are the animals most needing prolonged family care, and family, is connected to society. Most people cannot survive without a lot of social contact. Historically exile was often considered one of the worst punishments, or the worst. And all cultures are full of a lot of nonsense, of many different sorts, IMO.  So their is no way to legislate it all out of existence, although the subject has made for some interesting novels about "Utopias".


Edited by laughingdog (03/02/20 01:44 PM)


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26512895 - 03/02/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

At least religion doesn’t change the rules every 30 years or so:crankey:

I was hella pissed when I found out that atoms are NOT made of electrons, protons and neutrons anymore lol


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Mr. D Green] * 1
    #26513091 - 03/02/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. D Green said:
Can someone give me some pros on allowing religions(cults) to operate? Besides brain washing the masses to create calmness in the presence of chaos or terror...




Well, for starters, talking about allowing and not allowing is a touchy subject.

I guess calmness in the presence of chaos or terror isn't such a bad thing either, but I get your gist.

This is the world we live in. Religion is at an all time low so for an atheist one might appreciate that this has occurred without a lot of allowing/not allowing. Push creates push back.

I think religion isn't black and white in the brain washing department. It's a mixed bag. It's interesting how young people today reject mainstream religion and turn to witchcraft, astrology, tarot, devil worship, etc. and believe it's somehow more rooted in truth. As a pretty hard core atheist it's looney if you ask me, but people want more! It's not just that people need magic in their life, it's that their thirst isn't easy to quench. It bleeds into being powerful and having power over others, power over the environment, wanting the entities in these heads to be more than just wisps of bio-electrical smoke.

And yet, as a pretty hard core atheist, I also see that religion brings people together, often teaches fairness, consideration, compassion, etc, along with the more unpleasant aspects. It would be wrong to compare this humanity with a humanity that doesn't tend toward religion because no such creature exists, but if it did, all other things being equal, humans would still be just as flawed, gullible, etc. unless of course, one were to remove those qualities from humanity and by happenstance religion fell away too. But that's expecting too much from what humanity actually is.

So pros on "allowing" religions to operate: letting things be just like they are, much easier than trying to change the world. If someone asks my opinion I'll give it.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: feldman114]
    #26513237 - 03/02/20 04:59 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
At least religion doesn’t change the rules every 30 years or so:crankey:

I was hella pissed when I found out that atoms are NOT made of electrons, protons and neutrons anymore lol




:rofl2:


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: PatrickKn]
    #26513568 - 03/02/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

What I mean is to take the "cult" part out of religions. The concepts called pride,honor,greed,good,evil,etc...is all you need. All those books are just brain washing psychobabble. People have a right to do and think what ever they want..yes,but if an operating society is the goal..there has to be boundaries.


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26513586 - 03/02/20 08:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
You seem to be assuming that all people wish to think for themselves. Or, that they desire not to have an authority to lean on, such as religion, or science.

Would I be correct in thinking you also consider yourself “unbrainwashed”?

I want to task you over this statement as well: science is facts, religion is imaginary. I think you are not giving enough credit to religion. You dismiss it very quickly as a legitimate human institution, then in the same breath, accept the scientific institution as it is without so much as a whiff of doubt.

If unthinking loyalty to the religious order is brainwashing, why isn’t it equally problematic to put such blind allegiance into the scientific, governmental, cultural orders, etc etc etc ?





lol,blind allegiance? The very threads and basics of the universe is all the proof you need for science...wheres is the proof for these human cults/relgious orders??
 
  And yes all people do think for them self's..if they are not thinking for them self; then they are a sheep..not a person.

Religion is for the weak...the weak do not want to except science..meaning reality, so they hide inside their own heads...where would you be without science?? In some cave somewhere talking to yourself and going insane..ooo kind of like these people in those cults you hear about all the time..o wait there called religious orders..

All you need is the "heart" and the "brain" understand?? Not a bunch of words beaten into your head by insane egotistical cultists.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26513658 - 03/02/20 09:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

.  You seem very attached to a very simplistic view. Tell us why do people go to huge mass gatherings, of thousands of people, who all act the same on cue, at sporting events, called "games", if they are individuals that like to think for themselves. And all the emotional excitement, is about grown men playing with a ball!
.  Then there are rock concerts and raves, where again the purpose is precisely not to think for oneself.
.  Then there are all the military forces where the purpose is to actually get conditioned, so that when somebody else tells you, actually ORDERS you to kill & whom to kill, you will do it without thinking, & do it quickly & automatically.
.  when we consider the global numbers, of these few non religious, examples, it is apparent that thousand, or perhaps many millions, over the years, go to great efforts not to think, let alone think for themselves.
.  Of course I left out factory jobs, especially assembly line jobs...now we are into many millions.
Then there are many more millions who have more children than they can comfortably support & take care of, dragging the whole family, into decades of misery.

.  This all seems so obvious it would seem one needs to not be thinking to miss it. The notion that humans are the pinnacle of evolution, and largely rational, is very mistaken, whether one chooses to find this sad or not.
.  Clearly Religion and cults are not the cause, but a symptom.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26514391 - 03/03/20 10:37 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you already knew everything and weren’t open to anything outside your current worldview. I made the horrible assumption that you were interested in actual dialogue, instead, it seem you are mostly interested in repeatedly stating your own position with more and more emphatic language, while essentially ignoring any other points brought to bear. My mistake, I will leave you to continue going on about how distressing you find other people’s religious beliefs without my further interruption. Have a great day! :cool:


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26517337 - 03/04/20 08:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
.  You seem very attached to a very simplistic view. Tell us why do people go to huge mass gatherings, of thousands of people, who all act the same on cue, at sporting events, called "games", if they are individuals that like to think for themselves. And all the emotional excitement, is about grown men playing with a ball!
.  Then there are rock concerts and raves, where again the purpose is precisely not to think for oneself.
.  Then there are all the military forces where the purpose is to actually get conditioned, so that when somebody else tells you, actually ORDERS you to kill & whom to kill, you will do it without thinking, & do it quickly & automatically.
.  when we consider the global numbers, of these few non religious, examples, it is apparent that thousand, or perhaps many millions, over the years, go to great efforts not to think, let alone think for themselves.
.  Of course I left out factory jobs, especially assembly line jobs...now we are into many millions.
Then there are many more millions who have more children than they can comfortably support & take care of, dragging the whole family, into decades of misery.

.  This all seems so obvious it would seem one needs to not be thinking to miss it. The notion that humans are the pinnacle of evolution, and largely rational, is very mistaken, whether one chooses to find this sad or not.
.  Clearly Religion and cults are not the cause, but a symptom.





Your getting off topic...clearly. That being said, religions and cults are exactly the same. Gatherings of people with no sense of belonging or place in society, thus they make up one..meaning they chose to live in a make believe universe rather then the universe..


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26517344 - 03/04/20 08:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you already knew everything and weren’t open to anything outside your current worldview. I made the horrible assumption that you were interested in actual dialogue, instead, it seem you are mostly interested in repeatedly stating your own position with more and more emphatic language, while essentially ignoring any other points brought to bear. My mistake, I will leave you to continue going on about how distressing you find other people’s religious beliefs without my further interruption. Have a great day! :cool:




You bring to the table a bunch of babble...what kind of reply would you expect. Your saying some human made up concept..religion.
Is on par with the universe it's self?? Science is not a human made concept...you as well are getting off topic..do you have anything intelligent to say?


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Religion...aka cults for sore losers who can not except life for what it is? [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26517502 - 03/04/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That religions and cults can be described as the same thing isn't really all that much of a statement. It only matters enough to state it repeatedly if you have a feeling about one word versus the other and coming to the understanding that they are the same depending on a semantic frame of reference led you some realization that you might not have before. The word cult derives from it's use in religion. That a religion is a cult isn't stating much.

Your blind worship of a Universe you don't fully understand yourself can be as dogmatic as a religiously held belief. Science as you use it in a sentence doesn't seem to grasp what science really is at the same time. Similar to how one saying they don't believe in religion because they believe in science is a nonsense statement. Science isn't a belief system inherently, it's a process to test truths from primarily, and in another semantic use of the word it describes bodies of knowledge.

In the latter use of the word, it actually is a human made concept for the body of knowledge it represents. It was made up based on conclusive evidence typically, but that a wrong conclusion is formed from otherwise compelling evidence towards the fact doesn't mean that the process to arrive at the conclusion was not science, nor that the concept was not human made.

There is a false equivalence to comparing science and religion as similar entities, but those differences are largely in how you use the words to describe what you're saying. Religion as an institution and community is different from religious text as a incontrovertible truth for example. Science as a process to test hypothesis is likewise different from science as a body of agreed upon knowledge by an institutional body.

The way you speak about your beliefs about the Universe, Science and Cult Religion can be interpreted as dogmatic and religious in nature if you are not careful to know exactly what you're trying to say and how to say it, and if you have a belief in something you cannot quite describe except loosely.


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