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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: PreparationH]
    #26506749 - 02/27/20 03:46 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
Technology changes, rights do not.  People on the other side will never understand until it's too late.  Look at Hong Kong.  No thanks.  People died for my rights to own firearms, there's enough of us out there willing to do the same to defend it.
[/url]



Of course rights change, how do you think the bill of rights was enacted? what do you think amendments are? There hasn't always been 27 you know. There was an amendment that established prohibition as well. Everything changes.

Hong Kong is a poor example too. That became because the Chinese would not allow Brits to step on Chinese soil so they gave them Honk Kong as a port. Then much later on the Brits gave it back. Of course the people of Hong Kong don't want to be Chinese again, but their history and blood is all Chinese before they got a taste of democracy. Even if every Hong Konger was a fully armed and trained black ops soldier it wouldn't make a difference. They are going up against the largest standing army in the world if they go down that path. Never gonna win by force.

I get you don't want to give up your rifles, there's no reason you should have to. But there's many reasons to restrict weapon proliferation. Knee jerk fear reactions to public attacks with firearms, where many tens of thousands of handguns are sold just exacerbate the issues.


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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: Northerner] * 4
    #26506792 - 02/27/20 04:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The Constitution doesn't give people rights, they are just born with them.  The Constitution is a document spelling out the chains on the goverenment, not on people.  So no, rights do not change, you have the same rights I do, just they've been infringed upon by your government, and you are ok with it.

Think about what you just said... Rights change?  Because the government... Says so?


This is why I continue stockpiling weapons.


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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: PreparationH]
    #26506800 - 02/27/20 04:17 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Hopefully shit hits the fan so they wouldn't have been purchased in vain :smirk:


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: PreparationH]
    #26506847 - 02/27/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
The Constitution doesn't give people rights, they are just born with them.  The Constitution is a document spelling out the chains on the goverenment, not on people.  So no, rights do not change, you have the same rights I do, just they've been infringed upon by your government, and you are ok with it.

Think about what you just said... Rights change?  Because the government... Says so?


This is why I continue stockpiling weapons.



How do you know that you ever had any rights? Did God tell you? Or did it come to you in a vision? Or was it a government document?

How do you know what you think you know?

Your stance is one of a religious nature, it is completely supported by blind faith in a fact that you have no rational reason to believe.


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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #26506872 - 02/27/20 05:08 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No rational reason to believe humans have rights...

Bro, WHAT


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: PreparationH]
    #26506910 - 02/27/20 05:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No rational reason to believe guns are innate to humans in nature.

Food, water, shelter, freedom, yeah sure... always been there. But guns are invented, you can't be born with a natural rights for something that does not occur in nature. That's illogical at best.


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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: PreparationH]
    #26506935 - 02/27/20 05:42 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
I have no reason to trust the United States Government and give up my rifles or bar other Americans from owning them.  I don't trust any government, I don't care how many dumb fucks go on a rampage or kids die, the 10,000 murders per year by guns in a nation of 320,000,000 is ok with me considering the atrocities tyrannical governments have committed against their people.  Don't want to get murdered in the USA? Carry a fucking gun.  That's what police do, and when some maniac tries stabbing/shooting people to death, who shows up?  Another adult with a gun.  Not interested in depending on others to keep me alive.



With firearms, at least when they come to infringe, Americans can take a few oath breakers out with them.  I hate violent criminals, murderers, and terrorists too, no one is out saying violent mentally ill people should have any weapons.  99.9% of gun owners and people owning sp00ky Ak-47's aren't that at all. 


Technology changes, rights do not.  People on the other side will never understand until it's too late.  Look at Hong Kong.  No thanks.  People died for my rights to own firearms, there's enough of us out there willing to do the same to defend it.








Couldn't agree more


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Invisible1234go
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: Northerner]
    #26506940 - 02/27/20 05:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
No rational reason to believe guns are innate to humans in nature.

Food, water, shelter, freedom, yeah sure... always been there. But guns are invented, you can't be born with a natural rights for something that does not occur in nature. That's illogical at best.





A lot of guns are created with materials that occur in nature.  :shrug:


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #26506949 - 02/27/20 05:50 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
No rational reason to believe guns are innate to humans in nature.

Food, water, shelter, freedom, yeah sure... always been there. But guns are invented, you can't be born with a natural rights for something that does not occur in nature. That's illogical at best.



Natural right to self defense.  Who are you to tell me what I can and can not own to defend my life? I want an automatic MP5 some day, God Bless America.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: PreparationH]
    #26506985 - 02/27/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
No rational reason to believe guns are innate to humans in nature.

Food, water, shelter, freedom, yeah sure... always been there. But guns are invented, you can't be born with a natural rights for something that does not occur in nature. That's illogical at best.



Natural right to self defense.  Who are you to tell me what I can and can not own to defend my life? I want an automatic MP5 some day, God Bless America.



You were just saying that you were born with the right to own guns, that's very different from the right to defend yourself. I can't tell you shit man, but the government who makes the laws can tell you what you can and can't posess... the government of the one you were just blessing, specifically.

I understand this is a religious thing for you, but you need to understand this too. God given right? Right?


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #26506996 - 02/27/20 06:16 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Quote:

PreparationH said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
No rational reason to believe guns are innate to humans in nature.

Food, water, shelter, freedom, yeah sure... always been there. But guns are invented, you can't be born with a natural rights for something that does not occur in nature. That's illogical at best.



Natural right to self defense.  Who are you to tell me what I can and can not own to defend my life? I want an automatic MP5 some day, God Bless America.



You were just saying that you were born with the right to own guns, that's very different from the right to defend yourself. I can't tell you shit man, but the government who makes the laws can tell you what you can and can't posess... the government of the one you were just blessing, specifically.

I understand this is a religious thing for you, but you need to understand this too. God given right? Right?



Can you point exactly where I blessed a government?  Fuck the government, what part are you missing here?  I don't give a fuck what laws people in Washington DC pass.

You do have the right to own guns.  You do too, but your government infringes on your rights.  The government tells me I can't possess magic mushrooms too, does it look like I give a fuck?

Free people don't ask for permission.


Where did I say it's religious at all?  I don't believe in gods.

You keep making strange claims, could you at least back up one of them listed above?


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: PreparationH]
    #26507039 - 02/27/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
Quote:

PreparationH said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
No rational reason to believe guns are innate to humans in nature.

Food, water, shelter, freedom, yeah sure... always been there. But guns are invented, you can't be born with a natural rights for something that does not occur in nature. That's illogical at best.



Natural right to self defense.  Who are you to tell me what I can and can not own to defend my life? I want an automatic MP5 some day, God Bless America.



You were just saying that you were born with the right to own guns, that's very different from the right to defend yourself. I can't tell you shit man, but the government who makes the laws can tell you what you can and can't posess... the government of the one you were just blessing, specifically.

I understand this is a religious thing for you, but you need to understand this too. God given right? Right?



Can you point exactly where I blessed a government?  Fuck the government, what part are you missing here?  I don't give a fuck what laws people in Washington DC pass.

You do have the right to own guns.  You do too, but your government infringes on your rights.  The government tells me I can't possess magic mushrooms too, does it look like I give a fuck?

Free people don't ask for permission.


Where did I say it's religious at all?  I don't believe in gods.

You keep making strange claims, could you at least back up one of them listed above?



Where you say "God Bless America." Literally in the post before I mention you are blessing your country, that's where, specifically.

I understand you don't much like the government, I'm not a huge fan, I don't care much for many laws. Claiming that something that is a law as an innate right, even though that law doesn't deal with anything innate is a logical fallacy though. It's clearly doublethink.

If you were to say "I think guns are fucking awesome and I don't want to give them up ever!" my response would be "okay man, fair enough". It really is fair enough. There's no bullshit right there, and no conversations like these to follow.


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #26507079 - 02/27/20 06:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

God bless America I just say facetiously, you could also argue that god can be whatever you want, even the configuration of the big bang etc.


It's not an "I like guns" argument, it's my natural born right to own an ak-47, it's yours too, you just don't care to exercise that right which is fine.  Like I said, technology changes, rights do not.  Governments and laws don't give you rights, you were already screwed from the gate thinking other men grant you your rights.  Don't do that.


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OfflineBabylonRuleDem
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #26507098 - 02/27/20 07:11 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MOONisAtruffle said:
oh you silly americans and your guns. The problem does not lie with the laws or guns you are all fucked in the head collectively as a nation.




Right because the overt racism towards people fleeing warzones in the EU shows a rational train of thought. Get off your high horse.

At least in america we have the means to defend ourselves against tyranny.

Quote:

Northerner said:
A lot of the deaths we see that are the most tragic are suicides and accidents. Mass shootings make up a tiny proportion of gun deaths and despite being the most broadcast by the media aren't really where the body count is. Handgun owners and their children are the worst effected by gun fatality, ironically. There are many countries where many people own rifles, but the issue is far less pronounced. It's not OG to walk around with a rifle and it's far more difficult to shoot yourself in the head with it or anyone else by accident.

I'm not for complete prohibition, but it appears apparent that anyone who says that having more machines that kill makes everyone safer is just denying simple logic. Reducing the numbers of weapons being sold, increasing the difficulty to obtain weapons and encouraging people away from gun culture helps to reduce these premature death numbers. It's been done. It's proven to work.

But rights and yadayadayada doesn't help. Ideological historical viewpoints set in stone can be a burden. Heck, it's not even fully agreed upon or understood why gun rights exist anymore. Times have changed.




I agree with most of this, but as has been alluded to... Tighter restrictions on guns, driving rights, birth rights, etc. do not address the core causes of this issue.

Sacrificing some freedom from each other is not worth sacrificing any from tryanny.

The 2nd amendment clearly states why these rights are there. Not for hunting, not for home protection, no other reason. It clearly states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Quote:

Northerner said:
Hong Kong is a poor example too. That became because the Chinese would not allow Brits to step on Chinese soil so they gave them Honk Kong as a port. Then much later on the Brits gave it back. Of course the people of Hong Kong don't want to be Chinese again, but their history and blood is all Chinese before they got a taste of democracy. Even if every Hong Konger was a fully armed and trained black ops soldier it wouldn't make a difference. They are going up against the largest standing army in the world if they go down that path. Never gonna win by force.




The backwoods american colonies defeated the big bad British Empire. Never doubt the size of the fight in the dog.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: BabylonRuleDem]
    #26507161 - 02/27/20 08:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
God bless America I just say facetiously, you could also argue that god can be whatever you want, even the configuration of the big bang etc.


It's not an "I like guns" argument, it's my natural born right to own an ak-47, it's yours too, you just don't care to exercise that right which is fine.  Like I said, technology changes, rights do not.  Governments and laws don't give you rights, you were already screwed from the gate thinking other men grant you your rights.  Don't do that.




Fair enough on the God thing, but it's ringing the bell of the core of this rights issue. If the rights aren't just a law, and they don't come from God, where do they come from then?

AK-47s don't grow on trees man. It can't be a natural right to have it. Or do you think it's a natural to posess whatever you want, despite any law, because you want, without consideration for the rest of the society you live in? Fair enough if you do. If you are apart from all that's fine. But what happens when some fuckhead blows up a home made batch of sarin or botulinum just down the road from you, wipes out all life for several square miles? That was his right to be cooking chemical/biological weapons at home. Fucking no one has the right to complain about that, he just should have been more careful.

In common terms rights are legalese for stuff you can't get around in law, they aren't a real thing. Made up stuff like other laws. Whether or not I consider something to be right or wrong is another thing, I commonly follow my own code of conduct rather than the law. That doesn't change reality though. I might think I've got a "right" to whatever. But that's a fantasy unless that's within the law. Most of the world doesn't have the right to posess military grade firearms, because it's illegal, not because the government in their countries is breaking natural order.

Quote:

BabylonRuleDem said:
Quote:

MOONisAtruffle said:
oh you silly americans and your guns. The problem does not lie with the laws or guns you are all fucked in the head collectively as a nation.




Right because the overt racism towards people fleeing warzones in the EU shows a rational train of thought. Get off your high horse.

At least in america we have the means to defend ourselves against tyranny.

Quote:

Northerner said:
A lot of the deaths we see that are the most tragic are suicides and accidents. Mass shootings make up a tiny proportion of gun deaths and despite being the most broadcast by the media aren't really where the body count is. Handgun owners and their children are the worst effected by gun fatality, ironically. There are many countries where many people own rifles, but the issue is far less pronounced. It's not OG to walk around with a rifle and it's far more difficult to shoot yourself in the head with it or anyone else by accident.

I'm not for complete prohibition, but it appears apparent that anyone who says that having more machines that kill makes everyone safer is just denying simple logic. Reducing the numbers of weapons being sold, increasing the difficulty to obtain weapons and encouraging people away from gun culture helps to reduce these premature death numbers. It's been done. It's proven to work.

But rights and yadayadayada doesn't help. Ideological historical viewpoints set in stone can be a burden. Heck, it's not even fully agreed upon or understood why gun rights exist anymore. Times have changed.




I agree with most of this, but as has been alluded to... Tighter restrictions on guns, driving rights, birth rights, etc. do not address the core causes of this issue.

Sacrificing some freedom from each other is not worth sacrificing any from tryanny.

The 2nd amendment clearly states why these rights are there. Not for hunting, not for home protection, no other reason. It clearly states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Quote:

Northerner said:
Hong Kong is a poor example too. That became because the Chinese would not allow Brits to step on Chinese soil so they gave them Honk Kong as a port. Then much later on the Brits gave it back. Of course the people of Hong Kong don't want to be Chinese again, but their history and blood is all Chinese before they got a taste of democracy. Even if every Hong Konger was a fully armed and trained black ops soldier it wouldn't make a difference. They are going up against the largest standing army in the world if they go down that path. Never gonna win by force.




The backwoods american colonies defeated the big bad British Empire. Never doubt the size of the fight in the dog.



The core issues, social division, inequality, social isolation, cultural breakdown... so hard to address without pushing all the bullshit politics off the table. It's hard times hey.

But in terms of harm minimisation, where do you draw the line? Maybe laws invested 300 years ago aren't specifically appropriate for a modern world. I dunno. Just pointing out that no where else in the first world has the same issue arising from these historic bills. No country in it's right mind would attempt a ground assault on the US, that would require the armed citizens to rise to her defence. It's a preposterous notion. Maybe the 2nd is being abused to the detriment of society.

There is no way in the world that Hong Kong can resist China by force either. They aren't on the other side of the world and the only way to get there is months long voyage in wooden ships. Beijing could storm Hong Kong and take her in less than a week. The international fallout is what stops them. It may come to it yet though. Hong Kong will call for help when the pressure becomes too much... we will see if anyone goes running to help. I suspect not. Mostly it'll just be news as the poor bastards get murdered and assimilated.


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: Northerner]
    #26507254 - 02/27/20 09:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I can not change the mind of someone who thinks their rights were granted to them by other human beings.  This is the saddest part of the conversation, understanding that you think other men and women give you rights, pathetic.  Please, reevaluate this thought process.  Thank goodness I live in the USA.


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: PreparationH]
    #26507273 - 02/27/20 09:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Laws and the constitution exist independently of any humans and (are supposed to) apply to all humans.

The Bible was written by humans too, you know...whether you believe Jesus was the son of god or not, humans wrote the text.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: feldman114]
    #26507320 - 02/27/20 09:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PreparationH said:
I can not change the mind of someone who thinks their rights were granted to them by other human beings.  This is the saddest part of the conversation, understanding that you think other men and women give you rights, pathetic.  Please, reevaluate this thought process.  Thank goodness I live in the USA.



I don't have any "rights" as I live in Australia. I also am not exposed to a society that's tearing itself apart at the seams because of ideologies.

Low crime, free healthcare, excellent social services, inequality is not too bad. It's a pretty good place to be. No ideological rights though, not from humans, not from God, none.

Democracy, rights, ideologies... those which you have or perceive to be true and correct are not universal. Your paradigm does not apply universally. Pretty shocking hey.


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: Northerner]
    #26507325 - 02/27/20 09:49 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Quote:

PreparationH said:
I can not change the mind of someone who thinks their rights were granted to them by other human beings.  This is the saddest part of the conversation, understanding that you think other men and women give you rights, pathetic.  Please, reevaluate this thought process.  Thank goodness I live in the USA.



I don't have any "rights" as I live in Australia.




https://legaldictionary.net/inalienable-rights/

Yea, I get it now, lmfao.

You live in Australia or Saudi Arabia, I am not even sure anymore?

I have never heard someone so proudly exclaim they have no rights.  So sad.





Edited by PreparationH (02/27/20 10:04 PM)


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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Shooting at Miller brewery [Re: PreparationH] * 1
    #26507344 - 02/27/20 10:09 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

lawyers used to duel

we need more of this


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