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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: feldman114] * 2
    #26507108 - 02/27/20 07:23 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
This is so bizarre... who hates Native Americans? I can’t even think of a single stereotype for NMs.

Seriously, what’s the deal? Are they taking your jobs like them dang Mesikins do in the US? Are they stealing your womens, you insecure weirdo?


Either way, it’s definitely possible to have a comeback after an attempted genocide....take it from a Jew...
It helps if your families have 5-10 kids each generation :rofl2:



Canada is a colonial state. The quality of life that the average Canadian enjoys is directly connected to the exploitation of indigenous peoples and their land, and so indigenous land rights directly threatens the status quo.

That's apparently enough to make a large amount of people hate you.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: JohnRainyII] * 3
    #26507127 - 02/27/20 07:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

JohnRainyII said:

Br'it'ish Co'lum'bi'a....P'ar'is. 

A C'an'da's...P'ar'is




There are examples of your intellect and intelligence in many of your posts in this sub, IMO.

Your gratuitous, petty, banal, and unfunny mocking of a tribal name is completely counter to that image and works to undermine the credibility and good will you've previously cultivated through your posts.

I thought I wanted to ask you what possessed you to do such a thing, but I realized I no longer give a shit to read what you write.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 3
    #26507153 - 02/27/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So updates from this week.

On Monday the rail blockade at Tyendinaga was raided by Ontario Provincial Police (OPP). This had predictable results. Several new blockades were immediately thrown up across the country and the blockade at Tyendinaga was reoccupied before the day was over.

When the RCMP began to arrest Gixtsan people, who had reformed their blockades (which had been ended earlier in good faith) in response to the raid on the Mohawks, a crowd surrounded the RCMP and refused to let them leave with any prisoners.

Many of the other blockades don't last more than 48hrs and we are entering into a game of injunction wack-a-mole, but even 48hrs is enough to cause significant disturbance. A distinct trend towards militancy is spreading. Maps like these are being shared:


The Mohawks have a lot of experience in these types of confrontations - I wouldn't expect them to back down. One big change from the past is that modern communication technologies makes its much more difficult for the Canadian State to control the narrative. Last I've seen is that the Mohawks are digging in and preparing for a fight.





Here's a little round-up of some articles from this week:
- Stakes mount at blockade in Kahnawake — and now, Kanesatake, too
- Blockades in support of Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs might be the start of a long, hot summer
- CN train engine collides with wooden pallets at Tyendinaga
- Behind CN, CP's quiet deal to skirt railway blockades and keep Canada's vital goods moving This article is an example of how misinformation is used to turn public sentiment against indigenous protesters. A big complaint against the blockades has been that they threaten shipments of essential supplies. Ignoring the part where many native communities perpetually lack these essential supplies without much response from the general population, instead of reporting that a solution has been found to ensure the essential supplies are still transported the government and corporations allowed this misinformation to spread.
- OPP gave intelligence, identities of Tyendinaga Mohawks to CN Rail without legal challenge And this article touches on the close role between industry and State in colonial systems. The RCMP was, by and large, formed to ensure that the railway could be built - and the railway was built to allow both government control and industrial expansion across the continent. To this day, CN has a legitimate police force - CN rail police are actual police - and numerous other examples where our police forces have essentially operated as private security for private industry exist all the way up to CSIS spying on Canadian citizens on behalf of resource extraction corporations.

And this is why the Canadian State responds with such violence - but maybe more violence won't be necessary this time. Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs had a meeting with representatives of the Crown today and released this statement:


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 3
    #26507208 - 02/27/20 08:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for your dedication to keeping the Shroomery updated, shivas.wisdom.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26508675 - 02/28/20 05:49 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Have any elected officials hinted at a possible long term “solution” to these blockades? Obviously they’ll continue to be replicated so long as the police raid remains their strategy.

Also, whats the PM had to say about this? Or is he remaining silent?


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #26508726 - 02/28/20 06:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Have any elected officials hinted at a possible long term “solution” to these blockades? Obviously they’ll continue to be replicated so long as the police raid remains their strategy.



Not really - there's lots of talk about 'peaceful dialogue', 'meaningful discussions' and all those vague terms politicians love but it amounts to nothing. People aren't having it anymore - this is where the slogan 'Reconciliation is Dead' comes from - we won't believe liars anymore. Concrete action, not promises, is the only thing that will convince people at this point.

Personally, I'm not even listening to the Canadian politicians anymore. I'm getting my updates on negotiations from the various indigenous leaders as they report back, because our politicians only speak in mistruths and outright lies. I know most people in support of the blockades are doing the same. Claims from the mouth of a Canadian politician are lies until verified by the hereditary chiefs.

There are pre-existing legal frameworks for what must happen - recognition of indigenous self-government and land title - Canada has maybe two dozen First Nations who have reached these types of agreements with the Canadian government - including at least one or maybe two in BC. These are not solutions any Canadian politician seems willing to champion though, because - to be blunt - resource extraction corporations has enormous potential influence in Canada and indigenous rights are bad for the industry.


Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Also, whats the PM had to say about this? Or is he remaining silent?



He gave the same talk about the need for peaceful and meaningful dialogue but stopped short of agreeing to actually meet with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs. Then a week ago he came out saying [paraphrasing] "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas" and that it was time for the blockades to come down.

And within 72hrs the police raids on the blockades had begun.

He's still refusing to meet with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs.



It's all bullshit and no one who isn't blinded by anti-indigenous racism has any faith in our politicians. One of Trudeau's big campaign promises in 2015 was to end boil water advisories in our First Nations communities. Five years later and despite all the "meaningful dialogue" we still have dozens upon dozens of First Nations communities that have been on boil water advisories for decades. Reconciliation is dead.

And then you have people getting upset at the possibility that these rail blockades will limit the supply of chlorine most Canadian cities depend on to treat their water systems. Because a hypothetical situation is more threatening than an actual situation that has persisted for entire generations.

Meanwhile, BC just made a huge deal only three months ago about being the first Canadian province to officially enshrine the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP) into law. Well, they definitely failed their first real test of that legislation.


The first real session of talks happened today - I don't know what the report back will say.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 3
    #26508734 - 02/28/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Also, in case people are interested in what an actual attack on free speech looks like...

My friend was released with conditions after spending two days in jail - they were essentially jumped by plainclothes cops while walking home in Toronto and arrested for allegedly participating in a rail blockade earlier in the day.

One of their conditions for release restricts the use or engagement of any social media platform to promote/support/encourage Wet'suwet'en solidarity actions or support.

I'm sure they aren't the only one with this condition.

Looking back at indigenous uprisings in Canada's history, excluding independent media from the site before major police/military operations has been standard operating procedure. That's been difficult to achieve in a world where smartphones and social media allows video to be shared nationwide live as it happens. These conditions are just one of the State responses to the new reality.

Just in case you still weren't sure which side you were on.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26508746 - 02/28/20 06:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Canada isn't exactly known for its free speech protection.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26508791 - 02/28/20 07:32 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Neither is the USA unless your particular flavour of free speech is hate speech.

Anyways... New tune from Tribe Called Red released in solidarity with the Wet'suwet'en nation and all indigenous led protests across Turtle Island



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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26508822 - 02/28/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Completely false.  Protection is far more robust in the u.s.  That order would never fly here.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #26509351 - 02/29/20 07:44 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I don't believe you. Make a thread about it if you want to jerk off about your robust protections but this ain't the place for your useless one liners.

I'm angry. This release condition most likely violates Canadians right to free expression but the police have never hesitated before about violating our rights until we can defend them later in the courts. I have multiple friends in jail right now. On top of militarized police forces, we're dealing with right-wing vigilante attacks - trucks running through blockades, masked people showing up to dismantle camps, and surrounding blockades at night. Historically, indigenous led blockades have turned into the largest police operations in this countries history with tens of thousands of rounds fired so shit is very tense even though people aren't willing to back down. People have been at this for weeks now. We're exhausted. We don't know what tomorrow holds.

You're posts here are incredibly tone deaf.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26509372 - 02/29/20 08:07 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You don't seem to have the same degree of anger about people using force to blockade rail lines.  Those people are victimizing Canadian citizens.  Those people are reprehensible.  That the government is also reprehensible does not absolve anything.

I guess you're a "the ends justify the means" kind of guy.

Also, you're the one who compared it to the U.S.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26509950 - 02/29/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Why would I be angry at the oppressed for taking a stand against hundreds of years of colonial violence?

Indigenous peoples are engaged in PEACEFUL actions. Where land defenders have stationed themselves outside buildings, providing information and putting pressure on policy-makers, these actions have been compared to labour actions, and in fact have been respected as such. Meaning, a number of unions have come out with statements that they regard these actions the same as they would a strike, and they will not cross that picket line. Dr. Glen Coulthard recently cited Harsha Walia as arguing the same consideration should be given to land defence.

The labour comparison can take us further, because we have been experiencing a steady erosion of labour rights, rights that were hard fought for, and hard won. At the core of that steady erosion is the manipulation of public opinion, which invariably paints labour actions as “threatening safety”. How? By withdrawing labour, health workers “threaten” public health, striking teachers “threaten” the ability of parents to work and put students at academic risk, picketing construction workers “threaten” the economy, etc etc.

More and more we have seen governments tabling back-to-work legislation, and criminalizing labour actions, all in the name of “public safety”. The particular bargaining unit in any given situation is demonized: they are greedy, lazy, paradoxically “essential” while also being completely replaceable and unimportant.

I point all this out to show you that any segment of the population can be rendered “the enemy”, even those who are supposedly “protected” by unions. Those without robust labour protections are even more vulnerable to the rhetoric of “public safety”.

Indigenous peoples have ALWAYS been scapegoated as a danger to settler society. Rooted in racist tropes of their savagery and unsuitability to the modern world, they are often portrayed as threat. And what is the threat they present at this moment? Some folks are refusing to be evicted from their land. In solidarity, other folks are blocking, or camping alongside railway tracks. No one is quantifying or qualifying what this ACTUALLY means in terms of real impact. In fact, we recently learned that the CN and Canadian Pacific had come together to broker a “work around” to keep essential supplies flowing.

So at this point of descent into angry settlerhood, the danger is an amorphous, existential threat. Not directed at anyone and their family though. Rather, the railway is a symbol of Confederation in a tangible, but also very mythological sense. The “threat” people are responding to is mostly (I believe) based in the feeling that we threaten Canadian coherence.

It is vital to remember, Indigenous peoples have not harmed anyone. We have not attacked, beaten, or threatened anyone. We have not pointed guns at anyone's husband, wife or children. We have not removed anyone's children and forced them into residential schools. We have not criminalized anyone's family, locked up their relatives, administrated their poverty, created legislation to specifically discriminate against them and their family, nor have we engaged the media over centuries to vilify them and their family, then scold them for getting upset. We have not removed generation after generation of anyone’s family, forced them to speak another language, punished them for practicing their culture, physically or sexually abused them, sterilized them, sent them far away to hospitals where some of them simply disappeared.

I could go on, for a long, long time. I hope you get my point. The violence that Canada is inflicting, right now, on Indigenous peoples is real. It is intense. It murders, it pardons our murderers, it poisons us in the name of “the greater good”, it turns society against us.

What Indigenous peoples are facing is no existential threat, it is a tsunami of death and pain and torment, every single day. It is REAL.

Angry settlers merely *imagine* what *might* happen if their fantasies about the savagery of the Indian play out. Half of Canada wants us punished and harmed because they are afraid, and their fears consume them. These people justify their cowardice and racism by invoking the figures of "victimizing Canadian citizens".

Well listen, Enlil, and the rest of settlerdom. You and your families are absolutely being harmed. You are at risk. And it has nothing at all, NOTHING, to do with Indigenous people.

Your labour rights are being eroded by neoliberal governments. Your lives are becoming increasingly precarious as the quality of your labour protections are stripped away; you work longer hours for less pay, in more dangerous circumstances, and if you complain you risk losing even the scraps left to you. Your healthcare systems are being systematically stripped to make way for privatized healthcare. Doctors are leaving in droves, maybe you cannot even find a family doctor. Your health coverage means less and less each passing year, and as you age, you need more care, not less.

Your environment is poisoning you. If you, like most Canadians, are located in an urban centre, environmental pollution is cutting down your life expectancy, and that of your children. It is bestowing upon you disorders, allergies, diseases. Outside the cities, the land and waters are still sickened. The animals are ill. It all affects you too.

Your education system is being torn apart in the service of neo-liberalism. Your class sizes soar, and your children suffer, directly, in reality, not just in your fears. Housing is becoming a dream, a thing your children may never actually have for their own as they are priced out not just of home ownership, but even rentals. The “gig” economy has them stretched to the breaking point just trying to make ends meet, just trying to access minimums.

Enlil, if you aren’t absolutely terrified for the well-being and safety of your family over all this, then you are in deep, deep denial. But I don’t think you are unaware of all this. In fact, I think it leaves you sleepless sometimes.

I think worrying about all of these realities actively harms your health, because it’s truly awful shit. And the worst part is, I think you feel helpless to keep your family safe, because these threats are hurtling towards you from every side. You don’t have a second to breathe because the hits keep coming.

Indigenous peoples are not your enemies. Indigenous peoples are not threatening or harming your family. In fact, we are ALL being harmed by the things Indigenous peoples are fighting against. On top of that they are being harmed in ways you are not.

When you paint us as a threat to "Canadian citizens", when you let all your pent up fear and stress and feelings of hopelessness coalesce into a fight response aimed at us, you relieve some deep down need in yourself to DO SOMETHING.

But the rational part of you absolutely needs to recognize that you actively make your family more unsafe by doing this, by scapegoating us, and by ignoring the larger picture, the picture where you are only valued slightly higher than Indigenous peoples, because of your skin colour, your support for the settler colonial state, your health, your cishetero presentation, your socioeconomic class. And if you slip up, get sick, get too queer, slip down the rungs of prosperity, you’ll be only slightly less reviled than we are.

Ignoring all of this is the real danger to "regular" citizens. If you love them as much as you almost certainly do, then you need to fight for a better now, and an even better future. You aren’t going to accomplish any of that by making us the enemy, “the threat”. Instead you actively shore up the power of the state that DOES. NOT. LOVE. YOU.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/29/20 04:29 PM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26509965 - 02/29/20 04:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Time to reread MLK's letter from a Birmingham jail:

Quote:

You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city's white power structure left the Negro community with no alternative.

In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self purification; and direct action. We have gone through all these steps in Birmingham. There can be no gainsaying the fact that racial injustice engulfs this community. Birmingham is probably the most thoroughly segregated city in the United States. Its ugly record of brutality is widely known. Negroes have experienced grossly unjust treatment in the courts. There have been more unsolved bombings of Negro homes and churches in Birmingham than in any other city in the nation. These are the hard, brutal facts of the case. On the basis of these conditions, Negro leaders sought to negotiate with the city fathers. But the latter consistently refused to engage in good faith negotiation.

Then, last September, came the opportunity to talk with leaders of Birmingham's economic community. In the course of the negotiations, certain promises were made by the merchants--for example, to remove the stores' humiliating racial signs. On the basis of these promises, the Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth and the leaders of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights agreed to a moratorium on all demonstrations. As the weeks and months went by, we realized that we were the victims of a broken promise. A few signs, briefly removed, returned; the others remained. As in so many past experiences, our hopes had been blasted, and the shadow of deep disappointment settled upon us. We had no alternative except to prepare for direct action, whereby we would present our very bodies as a means of laying our case before the conscience of the local and the national community.

[...]

You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.

[...]

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God given rights.

[...]

There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience. You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, at first glance it may seem rather paradoxical for us consciously to break laws. One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."

[...]

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

[...]

Oppressed people cannot remain oppressed forever.




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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26510101 - 02/29/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You believe that indigenous people haven't harmed anyone?  Is that what you really believe?  Or is that just what you tell yourself?  That's an absurd statement.  Clearly the blockades have harmed many, many people.  A discussion can be had about injustices that indigenous people have suffered, but none of that changes the fact that people ARE being harmed by the blockades.

You seemed to have picked a side, and you're perfectly okay with anything that supports your side.  I don't work that way.  I'm not on either side.  People are accountable for their own actions, and the actions of these scumbags blockading railroads is disgusting.  If your friends were participating, they deserved to be arrested.  They're scumbags.  If they weren't, then an injustice was done by arresting them.

Even if they are scumbags, however, that doesn't justify a gag order on them.  That's reprehensible, too. 

Bottom line:  These criminal scumbags that are harming huge portions of Canada's population by blockading railways are in fact also hurting their own people.  Actions like this leave the impression that the indigenous people are just lawless rabble rousers who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. Instead of rallying people behind their cause, they are going to alienate themselves and make their cause look unjust.

Martin Luther King would find your invocation of his words deplorable.  At no point did he advocate cutting off supply lines, and he would absolutely not see this as civil disobedience.

The ends never justify the means.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26510416 - 02/29/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The ends never justify the means? Absolutes like that are how you end up having to argue against slave revolts and ghetto uprisings.

Beside, the only harm these blockades have caused is economic harm. Economic sabotage is a legitimate and non-violent tactic - blockades are indistinguishable in effect from a general strike.

Do you disagree that economic sabotage is not a legitimate tactic? Perhaps you have evidence that these blockades have caused physical harm to Canadians? Or are you just calling people scumbags because of hypotheticals you made up in your head?

I've already heard your sentiment - scumbag is one of the nicer things I've been called recently. The population of Canada is divided over this but pretty much everyone agrees that the country is broken. Still, 30% support the blockades and 50% stand in solidarity even if they disagree with the methods - that's more than enough to bring this country to a standstill until our politicians start respecting indigenous nations.


'Canada is broken,' say majority of Canadians in poll taken in wake of rail blockades










The revolution will not be televised

And here's the situation in a format we can all understand:


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #26510529 - 02/29/20 10:44 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

good shit Shiva speak truth forever



Quote:

Enlil said:
You believe that indigenous people haven't harmed anyone?  Is that what you really believe?  Or is that just what you tell yourself?  That's an absurd statement.  Clearly the blockades have harmed many, many people...
  These criminal scumbags that are harming huge portions of Canada's population by blockading railways are in fact also hurting their own people.  Actions like this leave the impression that the indigenous people are just lawless rabble rousers who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. Instead of rallying people behind their cause, they are going to alienate themselves and make their cause look unjust.

Martin Luther King would find your invocation of his words deplorable.  At no point did he advocate cutting off supply lines, and he would absolutely not see this as civil disobedience.

The ends never justify the means.




it takes a lot to be heard the propaganda machine is very loud and the hate is very real. i cant remember the last time a native person ran over a bunch of people downtown, or blew up a hotel or a hospital, or shot up a church, wal-mart, school, summer camp, redneck concert or movie theater and there's native kids running around all over out there with ARs and 12 gauges too. really really hope that never happens that would be detrimental to the people, though i am a little suprised it hasnt happened already the anger is real feel it.

fuck dude read a fucking history book
not the shit they fed you in school the real ones:

Why We Can't Wait by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Quote:

  “Our nation was born in genocide when it embraced the doctrine that the original American, the Indian, was an inferior race. Even before there were large numbers of Negroes on our shores, the scar of racial hatred had already disfigured colonial society. From the sixteenth century forward, blood flowed in battles of racial supremacy. We are perhaps the only nation which tried as a matter of national policy to wipe out its Indigenous population. Moreover, we elevated that tragic experience into a noble crusade. Indeed, even today we have not permitted ourselves to reject or feel remorse for this shameful episode. Our literature, our films, our drama, our folklore all exalt it.” 




Edited by MadMuncher (01/17/22 04:53 AM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26510647 - 03/01/20 12:47 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The ends never justify the means? Absolutes like that are how you end up having to argue against slave revolts and ghetto uprisings.




The means are either just or they are not.  They don't become just simply because of the desired end.

Some slave revolts were just.  Some were partially just and partially unjust.  Some were unjust.  Slavery itself is unjust.  Everyone is accountable for his/her own actions. 

These blockades are harming probably hundreds of thousands of people, most of which have done literally nothing to deserve it.  Where is the justice in that?  Your position is indefensible, and the sooner you admit that, at least to yourself, the sooner you can get past knee-jerk reactions borne from emotion and start thinking about real solutions.

Or, you can just pick your team and root for them regardless of what fucked up shit they might do.

I know you're smarter than this, and deep inside, I know you know you're smarter than this.  You're angry now, and you're letting that stunt your reasoning at the moment.  I'm not above doing that myself at times.  I'm not proud of it, though, and I hope that I remember this conversation the next time and perhaps use it to steer me in a different direction.

Either way, what I say doesn't matter much.  I'm words on a screen.  I just hope that you and others can eventually see that the way to end this cycle of oppression of others is to eliminate the entire concept of "others."  That doesn't happen by building barricades. That happens by building bridges.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #26510702 - 03/01/20 01:46 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
These blockades are harming probably hundreds of thousands of people, most of which have done literally nothing to deserve it.  Where is the justice in that?



You need to be more specific. When you talk about harm, do you refer to physical harm or economic harm?

If you refer to physical harm, I'll ask you to provide concrete examples.

If you refer to economic harm, I'll reaffirm that this is a legitimate and non-violent tactic; also the backbone of the labour movement. The strike - denial of work - is economic harm. The general strike shuts down entire cities or economic regions. Most strikes have far-reaching effects beyond directly harming the bosses economically.

Would you also denounce striking rail workers for harming probably hundreds of thousands of people, most of which have done literally nothing to deserve it?

If yes, then you are against one of the most fundamental powers of the working class and should not be listened to in this matter.

If no, then you need to understand that indigenous peoples have traditionally been excluded from the working class and the labour strike is not a tool that has always been available to them. On the other hand, native land hosts our rail and road networks (for reasons of colonialism) and as a result these are accessible to the excluded class - blockades have the double positive of both imposing economic harm and asserting indigenous sovereignty in a way that can't be ignored, by a people that have been historically ignored. The economic harm caused by indigenous blockades is not different from that caused by labour union general strikes - and if for whatever reason you decide to persist in specifically denying indigenous peoples this tactic you are displaying angry settler prejudice and should not be listened to in this matter.






Quote:

Enlil said:
I just hope that you and others can eventually see that the way to end this cycle of oppression of others is to eliminate the entire concept of "others."  That doesn't happen by building barricades. That happens by building bridges.



It's been 400 years of colonialism in so-called Canada. Justice too long delayed is justice denied.

You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. [...] The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26510980 - 03/01/20 08:12 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

It's legitimate because you say it is?  Sorry, bro...I don't accept that.  Breaking into someone's house and stealing all of their shit is only economic harm.  Is that legitimate, too?  What about burning down someone's home with no one in it?  Legitimate?

Causing someone economic harm is causing someone harm.  When people can't work or can't eat, there are serious consequences to that.  Pretending otherwise just shows the hypocrisy of your position.  By adopting your reasoning, I could simply find that the indigenous people are suffering no harm by having a pipeline installed across their lands.  Shit, we could play the "no harm" game all day long.

Again, I know your judgment is colored by emotions.  Emotions are real.  Emotional suffering is real harm.  The indigenous people have suffered real harm, and now they are causing real harm.  Call it revenge, or justice, or a means to an end, but it's still people hurting other people.


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