|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,837
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? 1
#26506355 - 02/27/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'm quite interested in your opinions on this topic. Can there be such a thing as morally justifiable colonialism?
Let's keep this civil if we possibly can, yes?
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,340
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 5 hours, 14 minutes
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#26506379 - 02/27/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I doubt it can be morally justified, but the strong dominating the weak is the usual order of things.
This is something I think about sometimes. The English colonization of India did seem to have some benefit for Indians of at least the higher classes. Speaking damn good English is an advantage when migrating or going to universities in Britain or U.S. I'm unsure why it didn't seem to work out as good for Pakistan; maybe Hindu vs Muslim majorities IDK.
Also, my bit of understanding of the Philippines history is that the U.S. kicked Spain out, but then we stated that they weren't quite ready for independence so we stepped in. While America's fairly evil motivations seem transparent, I also think the Philippines benefitted somewhat from having us as their last master, rather than Spain.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
|
relic
of a bygone era


Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 5,623
Loc: the right coast
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26506428 - 02/27/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not smart enough to discuss this but am interested to read what people have to say.
|
VP123
Strange



Registered: 06/27/19
Posts: 1,341
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 10 days, 3 hours
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: relic]
#26506444 - 02/27/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The benefits come from the contact of cultures. It is difficult to justify the destruction of cultures that occur as a result of colonialism as something beneficial.
We'd long have been tapping into the benefits of psychedelics if they has not been banned as evil.
|
feldman114
Stragler


Registered: 09/06/19
Posts: 3,365
Loc: Bravos
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: relic]
#26506454 - 02/27/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don’t think there were any morally justifiable colonies in human history.
Buuut
It sure seems like a good idea on paper. We have two societies: one is low on natural resources, the other is behind on innovation. This is an ideal situation for highly profitable trade for BOTH sides.
IMHO, If the British never claimed any American land, the empire would still stand strong today. Instead of being weakened by the colonies and then France, Britain would become the richest nation on Earth and beat the French on every front. Then, hundreds of years later, Britain would have a great ally in the fastest-advancing region of the world. Meanwhile, Americans would eventually become way better off and join the “civilized” world.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#26506634 - 02/27/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"The conquest of the earth, which mostly means the taking it away from those who have a different complexion or slightly flatter noses than ourselves, is not a pretty thing when you look into it too much." --Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 41 minutes, 22 seconds
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26506638 - 02/27/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Without giving it a complete pass, colonialism seems engrained in the human condition (especially in groups thereof). Even in its absence, some hunter gatherers where just as cruel and power hungry without anytype of colonial influence.
Resources are primary to human existence; both for subsistence and power....exploitation seems like a necessary evil. The common traits of colonialism permeate all lands and civilizations; no significant nation or people are immune to them.
To this day, there are native people who are unable to utilize the natural resources of their homeland due to outside influence. A personal example is my family in the PHILIPPINES that were unable to swim in "prime beach" areas given the control foriegn of owned resorts.
A question for you:
How could one "fix" colonialism?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (02/27/20 02:47 PM)
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 41 minutes, 22 seconds
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26506641 - 02/27/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I am going to steal that quote from you.(or from Conrad)
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
VP123
Strange



Registered: 06/27/19
Posts: 1,341
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 10 days, 3 hours
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#26506658 - 02/27/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
People can offer all kind of arguments based on positive aspects of colonialism. However, I find it difficult, if not impossible to justify its morality. The same way you can't justify rape as moral just because the offspring turned out to be an excellent person.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 9 hours
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26506668 - 02/27/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Without giving it a complete pass, colonialism seems engrained in the human condition (especially in groups thereof). Even in its absence, some hunter gatherers where just as cruel and power hungry without anytype of colonial influence.
Resources are primary to human existence; both for subsistence and power....exploitation seems like a necessary evil. The common traits of colonialism permeate all lands and civilizations; no significant nation or people are immune to them.
To this day, there are native people who are unable to utilize the natural resources of their homeland due to outside influence. A personal example is my family in the PHILIPPINES that were unable to swim in "prime beach" areas given the control foriegn of owned resorts.
A question for you:
How could one "fix" colonialism?
Well said. And no, there's no "fixing" the evolutionary process of human civilizations.
|
shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,428
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: ballsalsa] 4
#26506700 - 02/27/20 03:15 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said: I'm quite interested in your opinions on this topic. Can there be such a thing as morally justifiable colonialism?
Let's keep this civil if we possibly can, yes?
I think we need to first agree on a definition for colonialism before we can have such a discussion.
The Oxford dictionary defines colonialism as "the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically."
Jürgen Osterhammel, an historian who specializes in colonialism, settles on a three-sentence definition: "Colonialism is a relationship between an indigenous (or forcibly imported) majority and a minority of foreign invaders. The fundamental decisions affecting the lives of the colonised people are made and implemented by the colonial rulers in pursuit of interests that are often defined in a distant metropolis. Rejecting cultural compromises with the colonised population, the colonisers are convinced of their own superiority and their ordained mandate to rule."
And the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry begins "Colonialism is a practice of domination, which involves the subjugation of one people to another," but goes on to arrive at a much more narrow definition "to describe the process of European settlement and political control over the rest of the world, including the Americas, Australia, and parts of Africa and Asia."
I am unaware of any systems of morality that justify the domination and exploitation of other people outside of those predicated on religious, ethnic, or cultural superiority.
I am open to hearing the moral justifications other members might propose, but personally I don't think any justification exists.
--------------------
|
shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,428
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: SirTripAlot] 3
#26506752 - 02/27/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Without giving it a complete pass, colonialism seems engrained in the human condition (especially in groups thereof). Even in its absence, some hunter gatherers where just as cruel and power hungry without anytype of colonial influence.
Resources are primary to human existence; both for subsistence and power....exploitation seems like a necessary evil. The common traits of colonialism permeate all lands and civilizations; no significant nation or people are immune to them.
The existence of a phenomenon in the natural world is not a defence of its morality.
It's true that exploitation, domination, and cruelty exist outside of colonial systems - so does theft, rape, and murder. This doesn't justify their application by colonial governments, nor does it justify settlers benefiting from the exploitation of indigenous populations.
Relationships based on domination, exploitation, and cruelty are not the only ways humans can relate to each other. The traits of altruism, compassion, and kindness are also represented across all lands and civilizations; no significant nation or people are immune to them. Perhaps humanity will never completely rid ourselves of the negative traits you list - that is not reason to accept and embrace them at the loss of the positive traits I listed.
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: To this day, there are native people who are unable to utilize the natural resources of their homeland due to outside influence. A personal example is my family in the PHILIPPINES that were unable to swim in "prime beach" areas given the control foriegn of owned resorts.
I don't think this is the argument you are making, but it relates to the idea of terra nullius - one of the original justifications behind colonialism - so I want to take the opportunity to bring it up anyways.
This justification is based off the idea that land not heavily developed for industry is empty and unused land free for the taking. Obviously this justification is heavily biased towards colonial-era European urban settlements and heavy exploitation of natural resources over nomadic or semi-nomadic indigenous peoples.
To bring it back towards your example - the colonial mindset is that, until some foreign company came to develop a beachfront resort, the locals who just wanted a place to swim without ruthlessly exploiting the area were not actually using the land and have no real claim to it.
Terra nullius is also not a defence of the morality of colonialism.
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: A question for you:
How could one "fix" colonialism?
The place to begin is to identify the aspects of colonialism still active in your government - the indigenous peoples still being exploited and the ways we benefit as settlers. Understanding the power dynamic is the start.
Next we need to equalize the power dynamic by both putting pressure our government to end official policies of exploitation and supporting indigenous nations as they exert autonomy and self-determination.
It's not as easy as just turning a blind eye while you continue to benefit from colonialism - but fighting against domination and exploitation will always be the moral choice.
--------------------
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 41 minutes, 22 seconds
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26506920 - 02/27/20 05:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Thanks QMan
Allot to chew on,there. I appreciate your response.
There is no way to exert control/colonialism on a people without some sort of force. By its very nature colonialism has a brutish scale; and yet, it can facilitate great growth and enrichment.
I do think your right heralding those traits that are beneficial for society. It does seem more positive; but that in itself, doesnt take away from the reality of colonialism.
Do you have a real world example of colonialism, that does not exploit or use force?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,428
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26506950 - 02/27/20 05:50 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Do you have a real world example of colonialism, that does not exploit or use force?
No, because colonialism is fundamentally exploitative.
Though I have lots of real world examples, outside of a colonial framework, that illustrates human relationships not based on exploitation or use of force. Anarchy Works by Peter Gelderloos is full of such examples.
I think the anarchist library is down right now, but you can download a pdf here if you're interested in reading the book.
--------------------
|
relic
of a bygone era


Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 5,623
Loc: the right coast
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26507075 - 02/27/20 06:54 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Based upon the definitions you cited, shivas.wisdom, the crash studying I've done tonight...
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
I am unaware of any systems of morality that justify the domination and exploitation of other people outside of those predicated on religious, ethnic, or cultural superiority.
...and your sentence I've quoted above, the question of a moral justification of colonialism seems pretty cut and dry short of any surprisingly compelling counter argument I've not yet read.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,499
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#26507094 - 02/27/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'll take a crack at this. Colonialism can be morally justified under one interpretation of utilitarianism. If we posit that humans should not exert energy fighting with one another, then the ultimate expression of that is a world where all humans are on the same team....a one-world nation, as it were. Given this goal, colonialism is one way to unite people.
Of course, the argument is that dominance has been the primary strategy of colonialism, historically. That doesn't necessarily have to be the case. One can envision a colonial process that is inclusive of the indigenous people and their cultures, values, and autonomy. Whether humans are likely to ever do this is another question, but I do believe it is possible.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Psilynut2
Stranger

Registered: 04/28/17
Posts: 5,120
Last seen: 10 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26507149 - 02/27/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I'm quite interested in your opinions on this topic. Can there be such a thing as morally justifiable colonialism?
Let's keep this civil if we possibly can, yes?
Only in a situation where the people being colonized and the people doing the colonizing all agree what’s happening is a good thing for everyone . That would make your opinion irrelevant . I don’t think that’s possible though .
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 9 hours, 42 minutes
|
Re: Is/Was colonialism inherently bad or immoral? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26508663 - 02/28/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ballsalsa said: I'm quite interested in your opinions on this topic. Can there be such a thing as morally justifiable colonialism?
Let's keep this civil if we possibly can, yes?
Inherently bad/immoral? Yes Justifiable? Anything can be justified, but imo no.
Civil? Doubt it.
--------------------
|
|