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ninja cat 09
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Hypocotyl grafting?
#26505358 - 02/26/20 06:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hypocotyl grafting is when you take the base of a seedling (stock) and the top of another (scion) and graft one to the other to give the scion a more healthy root system. You can read a more detailed tutorial here and a more in-depth explanation of the benefits here, but I haven't been able to find much about it other than on those links.
 image source
As far as I can tell, the biggest benefit is that it looks like a natural, ungrafted plant (other than the usual faster growth and flowering), which combining it with it's difficulty answers why it isn't a particularly popular method, though it's a pretty interesting one.
Has anyone here tried this? How were your results? Do you have any tips for the process?
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Primal Matter
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This is done to propagate cultivars of Durio zibethinus as the hypocotyl is very prominent on durian seedlings.
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ninja cat 09
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Quote:
Primal Matter said: This is done to propagate cultivars of Durio zibethinus as the hypocotyl is very prominent on durian seedlings.
Cool! Is Durian particularly sensitive to root rot? Or do some species have faster growing roots than others?
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bw86
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So basically its just grafting seedlings when they are in their infancy?
How do you apply pressure to the union ?
Edited by bw86 (02/27/20 12:11 PM)
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Feroxx
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Re: Hypocotyl grafting? [Re: bw86]
#26506446 - 02/27/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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it may not be needed to maintain pressure, just like pere grafts w high humidity dome method
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ninja cat 09
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Re: Hypocotyl grafting? [Re: bw86]
#26507330 - 02/27/20 09:56 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bw86 said: So basically its just grafting seedlings when they are in their infancy?
How do you apply pressure to the union ?
From what I gather it's not necessary to do so:
Quote:
It is recommendable, though not essential, to place a sort of hard plastic cover weighing a few grams, better if transparent, over the scion for a couple of days so as to maintain a certain pressure and allow the vascular bundles to make contact.
I'm thinking of giving it a shot, since I have a bunch of astrophytum seedlings around and I just got myself some opuntia seeds, pereskiopsis and opuntia stock (some of it rotting, but hopefully others will survive). It'll be interesting to compare!
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bw86
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Just tried one but i fumbled, too much coffee. We will see what happens... Had it lined up perfect with the same diameter. Then I tried to press it down with the back of the scalpel and it fell off. When I went to pick it up I accidentally stabbed the inside of the loph and had to cut a tiny bit off making the diameter slightly larger than my root stock. Both seedling are the same age (20 days).
Trichocereus hybrid wowie x malo 4

I forgot to snap a pic of the Fricii before i pulled it out but it was growing in the corner of a seed flat and stretching because it was in the shade. It is pictured next to a micro scalpel

Cut top off trich by pressing the scalpel carefully into my finger

(Second times a charm) put the scion on, pressed down with the back of the scalpel and put some rocks around the base since its top-heavy.

I will update if it lives.I am brand new to cacti and plan on having a lot of fun experimenting. Im gona wait for my trichs to be fatter than the lophs .Or use a younger/smaller loph and some tools to help me see and hold things.
here is a usefull page i found on dmt nexus Scion Selection "You want to select the scion based on it's size in relation to the stock you're using. Keep in mind that the stock needs to be 1.5x larger than the scion. You also want them to have at least 1 areole. While this is not extremely important, it does seem to help quite a bit. The older seedlings do have a better success rate. When cutting the seedling to be grafted, you should cut above the tapered root area. Sometimes it will seem that you are trimming off too much of the seedling, but this seems to be of little importance compared to where its cut. Ideally the cutting should be made in the area where the thickness of the seedling becomes even."
Edited by bw86 (02/29/20 08:07 AM)
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ninja cat 09
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Re: Hypocotyl grafting? [Re: bw86]
#26508735 - 02/28/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's super cool that you did that bw!
I can't wait to try it once my opuntia seeds are dry enough to sow. Hopefully in a couple weeks! I'll post here when I do
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bw86
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I did this almost 4 days so i took a peak today to see if it was alive. It is alive but im guessing the fuzz ( mold) will kill them? Also i dont know if the brown i see is rot or callus. These pics are with my Chinese "smart"phone so i did the best i could.
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ninja cat 09
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Re: Hypocotyl grafting? [Re: bw86]
#26514925 - 03/03/20 04:24 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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They might be roots? I hope it's not rot 
I'm gonna be planting the opuntia seeds today.
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ninja cat 09
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I've finally made a couple hypocotyl grafts on opuntia stock, they seem OK so far, but I'm not sure if they'll take. They're Astrophytum Myriostigma, I'll try and do the same for one or two of my lophophora diffusa if these don't die within a few days:

How's your graft doing bw86?
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Edited by ninja cat 09 (03/22/20 02:17 PM)
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bw86
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it died... Those last pics were mold starting to form 
Im gonna start more mixed lophs this week. My trich seedlings are about big enough to match the diameter of a loph seedling.
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ninja cat 09
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Re: Hypocotyl grafting? [Re: bw86]
#26551118 - 03/22/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I decided I'd bite the bullet and do all of them at the same time, there's 2 A. Asterias, 2 A. Myriostigma and one A. Retusus, all on Opuntia Brasiliensis. Only a few match the diameter exactly.

Quote:
bw86 said: it died... Those last pics were mold starting to form 
Im gonna start more mixed lophs this week. My trich seedlings are about big enough to match the diameter of a loph seedling.
Damn, that sucks 
Hell yeah! Show me how it goes!
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ninja cat 09
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So far most of the grafts haven't taken, some because of my own impatience and unstable hands, and some for unknown reasons. I tried re-doing some of the rejected grafts by cutting some more of the base and some more of the scion off and then placing them back together, but most of these didn't take. Maybe the rootstock wasn't compatible, maybe there was too much humidity or the soil was too wet, at this point I'm not sure since there isn't much info on this type of grafting.
Thankfully the only loph I grafted seems to have taken on a stock that had previously rejected another scion so it makes me think that there's a compatibility issue, but it's just speculation at this point, since I also gave it a heavier top. It's the one in the middle to the left.
In the picture, the bottom left is an astrophytum asterias which took (another asterias took, but I knocked the other one off), the white dot on the very right is likely the bottom half of a myriostigma, the rest are attempts at reusing the rootstock that rejected other scions on a surprise seedling that sprouted from the soil I reused from other cacti for the opuntia seedlings.
So only 2/9 of the initial grafts took, not the best of success rates.

Another issue might be how I cut the cacti, since most of them were cut in half, maybe giving them a heavier top might lead to more success, since smaller scions seemed to be rejected more often, but I didn't keep detailed logs, so this is again, speculation.
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ninja cat 09
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At this point, most of my grafts have died. I believe it's because previously I was cutting the scions right in half, hoping for the bottom half to graft as well and eventually become a second plant. Another factor which I believe could have affected the grafts is the diameter (and therefore the vascular rings) didn't line up, so in the future I'll only be using this technique with similar aged plants (as suggested in cactus arts' description of the technique)
The only survivors are a loph which is starting to wilt, what looks like the healthy root of a A. Myriostigma, an A. Asterias, which seems to be doing really well and a that random unidentified seedling I found.

I've tried another 9 grafts, 4 A. Asterias and 5 A. Myriostigma, this time only keeping the upper portion of the scion and making sure the diameters line up pretty decently:

To be honest, I don't think this method of grafting is worth the trouble so far, but I'd like to continue the experiment to see how much I can learn from it.
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Edited by ninja cat 09 (04/05/20 10:16 PM)
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bw86
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Seems to be pretty tough. I would like to see an experienced shroomery member do one.
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ninja cat 09
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Re: Hypocotyl grafting? [Re: bw86]
#26582400 - 04/06/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah! It'd be great to see someone who knows what they're doing give it a shot! But that's also why I want to document my failures: there's not a whole lot out there 
I found out another one of my main failure points: when I remove the lid where the seedlings are, it pops and that's enough vibration to send some of the scions flying off the root stock 
Don't know how I didn't notice that before...
So far everything I grafted yesterday seems to be doing OK.
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ninja cat 09
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I'm happy to report that I've gotten almost 90% success rate with this last batch of grafts, the main problem seems to have been sudden movements throwing the scions off, along with them being cut in half instead of only at the base, and the cuts on the root stock not being perfectly level:

This one has the best union and is the one which fattened up the most in these past few days, it makes me thing this type of graft might be more useful than I initially thought:

They seem to take even if they're not perfectly aligned, but I'm guessing it's because vascular rings intersected, or the scion just hasn't fallen off yet.

This one didn't take and I had to re-graft, notice the lack of a circle of callous around the base. Initially I thought it had taken but it started slowly falling off the root stock:

I'll go out to get myself some more opuntia seeds today and hopefully I'll be getting some loph and ariocarpus seeds in the mail soon. I'll give it a shot with a trichocereus seedling too, to see if there's much of a difference in growth rates.
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Edited by ninja cat 09 (04/10/20 01:39 PM)
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bw86
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Excellent job mate. Inspirational.
I have to do some more myself.
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ninja cat 09
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Thanks a bunch man! I can't wait to see what you try! I wasn't able to get any opuntia seeds today, but I should be able to soon enough, that or I can wait until it's myrtle fruit season in May-June and see if I can get any at the market (if it's not stuffed with people or closed).
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ninja cat 09
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I wanted to give an update: so far only one of the grafts from my first attempt has survived, it's an Astrophytum Asterias that's larger than the ones on their own roots, but not too much yet, the unknown seedling is dying off.

In the second container, all but one are doing great! They've reached the point where they're showing new growth and seem healthy:

There's one Asterias that's showing really great growth, this is probably because I got lucky and perfectly aligned the vascular rings, although I don't discard genetics. It's easily 50% larger than any other Asterias hypocotyl graft I have made:

Finally, here's the one that's having trouble, I suspect it might be because I didn't properly align the vascular rings, but I doubt it's that because it's been slowly detaching itself from it's root stock. I also believe it might have been because I cut the root stock too high, as evidenced by the extremely tiny thorn growing out the side of the base of the root stock (very similar to other thorns on opuntia seedlings). I might be overthinking it a bit when the cause might just be fungus, but don't see any fuzziness or sliminess on the scion.

Other seedlings that are more misaligned don't show this type of decomposition, as is evidenced by a graft which is happily growing along with a pretty considerable offset (I wasn't able to capture it very well on camera, it's more noticeable in person, it´s the graft that's to the right in the middle). This, however, doesn't mean that the failed graft's vascular ring is properly aligned or that the graft in the picture is misaligned:

Here's where the advantage of hypocotyl grafting looks obvious, not even a pachanoi would have such a developed root system at such a young age and the graft won't be noticeable once the scion is larger. I'm hoping that with some more water and space this little guy will grow a little faster than he has so far. If he does, this would be a great way of keeping lophophora which look like they're on their own roots without a lot of special care.
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bw86
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Great post mate 
a true asset to the community
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ninja cat 09
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Re: Hypocotyl grafting? [Re: bw86]
#26606590 - 04/16/20 08:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks a bunch mate! I'm hoping I'll be able to iron out the difficulties of the method and post a tek once I've got it down
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ninja cat 09
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I have some opuntia seeds sitting in wet soil, waiting to sprout. I wonder why they're taking so long this time? Maybe it's that I got the seeds from another variety of opuntia. I have some baby loph diffusa waiting to be tested on. I also have an excess of pachanoi and peruvianis seedlings laying around I might as well experiment on.
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