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OnlineBuster_Brown
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Re: Jealousy, is it love or hate? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26512009 - 03/01/20 09:23 PM (4 months, 30 days ago)

I dare say part A: "Our duties are the upholding of the other's rights, including rights of creatures not human, and even those of unborn generations. This is fairness."...is a specious argument if his consideration does not extend to fleas, intestinal worms and body lice.

Part B: "It's the right to redress when rights are stepped on, and the duty to submit to corrective measures when found to be stepping on others."...then portrays a sadistic overlay that may resort to supportive, specious arguments in an attempt to dominate.

The author assured me via email that he does not need to defend his position
because the speciousness of his argument is not evident.


Edited by Buster_Brown (03/02/20 03:32 AM)


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Onlinesaintdextro
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Re: Jealousy, is it love or hate? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26788577 - 06/28/20 12:24 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

I've been reading this krishnamurti books and talks and thought this was a good answer to my question, it seem's that to possissive of someone, to have complete certainty of ownership of your lover, causes jealousy, where as to not have ownership over your lover will give you freedom to just move on like water under the bridge rather than the pain, hate and envy you could feel in your relationship if your lover gets close, heavyly or lightly to someone else, attachment is the problem, as is certainty of ownership,,,but just read this essay and see if it helps to understand jealousy:                               
                         
                                                                  Commentaries on Living Series I Chapter 56 'Possessiveness'.   
                                               
Quote:


HA HAD BROUGHT along his wife, for he said that it was their mutual problem. She had bright eyes and was small, sprightly, and rather disturbed. They were simple, friendly people; he spoke English fairly well, and she could just manage to understand it and ask simple questions. When it got a little difficult, she would turn to her husband and he would explain in their own language. He said that they had been married for over twenty-five years, and had several children; and that their problem was not the children, but the struggle between themselves. He explained that he had a job which gave him a modest income, and went on to say how difficult it was to live peacefully in this world, especially when you are married; he wasn't grumbling, he added, but there it was. He had been everything that a husband should be, at least he hoped so, but it was not always easy.

It was difficult for them to come to the point, and they talked for some time about various things: the education of their children, the marriage of their daughters, the waste of money on ceremonies, a recent death in the family, and so on. They felt at ease and unhurried, for it was good to talk to someone who would listen and who perhaps might understand.

Who cares to listen to the troubles of another? We have so many problems of our own that we have no time for those of others. To make another listen you have to pay either in coin, in prayer, or in belief. The professional will listen, it is his job, but in that there is no lasting release. We want to unburden ourselves freely, spontaneously, without any regrets afterwards. The purification of confusion does not depend on the one who listens, but on him who desires to open his heart. To open one's heart is important, and it will find someone, a beggar perhaps, to whom it can pour itself out. Introspective talk can never open the heart; it is enclosing, depressing and utterly useless. To be open is to listen, not only to yourself, but to every influence, to every movement about you. It may or may not be possible to do something tangibly about what you hear, but the very fact of being open brings about its own action. Such hearing purifies your own heart, cleansing it of the things of the mind. Hearing with the mind is gossip, and in it there is no release either for you or for the other; it is merely a continuation of pain, which is stupidity.

Unhurriedly they were coming to the point.

"We have come to talk about our problem. We are jealous - I am not but she is. Though she used not to be as openly jealous as she is now, there has always been a whisper of it. I don't think I have ever given her any reason to be jealous, but she finds a reason."

Do you think there is any reason to be jealous? Is there a cause for jealousy? And will jealousy disappear when the cause is known? Have you not noticed that even when you know the cause, jealousy continues? Do not let us look for the reason, but let us understand jealousy itself. As you say, one might pick up almost anything to be envious about; envy is the thing to understand, and not what it is about.

"Jealousy has been with me for a long time. I didn't know my husband very well when we married, and you know how it all happens; jealousy gradually crept in, like smoke in the kitchen."

Jealousy is one of the ways of holding the man or the woman, is it not? The more we are jealous, the greater the feeling of possession. To possess something makes us happy; to call something, even a dog, exclusively our own makes us feel warm and comfortable. To be exclusive in our possession gives assurance and certainty to ourselves. To own something makes us important; it is this importance we cling to. To think that we own, not a pencil or a house, but a human being, makes us feel strong and strangely content. Envy is not because of the other, but because of the worth, the importance of ourselves.

"But I am not important, I am nobody; my husband is all that I have. Even my children don't count." We all have only one thing to which we cling, though it takes different forms. You cling to your husband, others to their children, and yet others to some belief; but the intention is the same. Without the object to which we cling we feel so hopelessly lost, do we not? We are afraid to feel all alone. This fear is jealousy, hate, pain. There is not much difference between envy and hate.

"But we love each other."

Then how can you be jealous? We do not love, and that is the unfortunate part of it. You are using your husband, as he is using you, to be happy, to have a companion, not to feel alone; you may not possess much, but at least you have someone to be with. This mutual need and use we call love.

"But this is dreadful."

It is not dreadful, only we never look at it. We call it dreadful, give it a name and quickly look away - which is what you are doing.

"I know, but I don't want to look. I want to carry on as I am, even though it means being jealous, because I cannot see anything else in life."

If you saw something else you would no longer be jealous of your husband, would you? But you would cling to the other thing as now you are clinging to your husband, so you would be jealous of that too. You want to find a substitute for your husband, and not freedom from jealousy. We are all like that: before we give up one thing, we want to be very sure of another. When you are completely uncertain, then only is there no place for envy. There is envy when there is certainty, when you feel that you have something. Exclusiveness is this feeling of certainty; to own is to be envious. Ownership breeds hatred. We really hate what we possess, which is shown in jealousy. Where there is possession there can never be love; to possess is to destroy love.

"I am beginning to see. I have really never loved my husband, have I? I am beginning to understand."

And she wept.






--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


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Onlinesaintdextro
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Re: Jealousy, is it love or hate? [Re: saintdextro]
    #26788592 - 06/28/20 12:42 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

This might also be helpful:.
                                                 
Quote:

Jiddu Krishnamurti:                                                             
Commentaries on Living Series I Chapter 52 'Jealousy'.                                                                   
THE SUN WAS bright on the white wall 
Opposite, and its glare made the faces obscure. A little O, without the prompting of the mother, came and sat close by, wide-eyed and wondering what it was all about. She was freshly washed and clothed and had some flowers in her hair. She was keenly observing everything, as children do, without recording too much. Her eyes were sparkling, and she did not quite know what to do, whether to cry, to laugh or to jump; instead, she took my hand and looked at it with absorbing interest. Presently she forgot all those people in the room, relaxed and went to sleep with her head in my lap. Her head was of good shape and well balanced; she was spotlessly clean. Her future was as confused and as miserable as that of the others in the room. Her conflict and sorrow were as inevitable as that sun on the wall; for to be free of pain and misery needs supreme intelligence, and her education and the influences about her would see to it that she was denied this intelligence. Love is so rare in this world, that flame without smoke; the smoke is overpowering, all-suffocating, bringing anguish and tears. Through the smoke, the flame is rarely seen; and when the smoke becomes all-important, the flame dies. Without that flame of love, life has no meaning, it becomes dull and weary; but the flame cannot be in the darkening smoke. The two cannot exist together; the smoke must cease for the clear flame to be. The flame is not a rival of the smoke; it has no rival. The smoke is not the flame, it cannot contain the flame; nor does the smoke indicate the presence of the flame, for the flame is free of smoke.

"Cannot love and hate exist together? Is not jealousy an indication of love? We hold hands, and then the next minute scold; we say hard things, but soon embrace. We quarrel, then kiss and are reconciled. Is not all this love? The very expression of jealousy is an indication of love; they seem to go together, like light and darkness. The swift anger and the caress - are these not the fullness of love? The river is both turbulent and calm; it flows through shadow and sunlight, and therein lies the beauty of the river."

What is it that we call love? It is this whole field of jealousy, of lust, of harsh words, of caress, of holding hands, of quarrelling and making up. These are the facts in this field of so-called love. Anger and caress are everyday facts in this field, are they not? And we try to establish a relationship between the various facts, or we compare one fact with another. We use one fact to condemn or justify another within this same field, or we try to establish a relationship between a fact within the field and something outside of it. We do not take each fact separately, but try to find an interrelationship between them. Why do we do this? We can understand a fact only when we do not use another fact in the same field as a medium of understanding, which merely creates conflict and confusion. But why do we compare the various facts in the same field? Why do we carry over the significance of one fact to offset or to explain another?

"I am beginning to grasp what you mean. But why do we do this?"

Do we understand a fact through the screen of idea, through the screen of memory? Do I understand jealousy because I have held your hand? The holding of the hand is a fact, as jealousy is a fact; but do I understand the process of jealousy because I have a remembrance of holding your hand? Is memory an aid to understanding? Memory compares, modifies, condemns, justifies, or identifies; but it cannot bring understanding. We approach the facts in the field of so-called love with idea, with conclusion. We do not take the fact of jealousy as it is and silently observe it, but we want to twist the fact according to the pattern, to the conclusion; and we approach it in this way because we really do not wish to understand the fact of jealousy. The sensations of jealousy are as stimulating as a caress; but we want stimulation without the pain and discomfort that invariably go with it. So there is conflict, confusion and antagonism within this field which we call love. But is it love? Is love an idea, a sensation, a stimulation? Is love jealousy? "Is not reality held in illusion? Does not darkness encompass or hide light? Is not God held in bondage?"

These are mere ideas, opinions, and so they have no validity. Such ideas only breed enmity, they do not cover or hold reality. Where there is light, darkness is not. Darkness cannot conceal light; if it does, there is no light. Where jealousy is, love is not. Idea cannot cover love. To commune, there must be relationship. Love is not related to idea, and so idea cannot commune with love. Love is a flame without smoke.




--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Jealousy, is it love or hate? [Re: saintdextro]
    #26788922 - 06/28/20 05:29 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Love is: If you are happier with that other person, then go, because I want the best for you.


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Onlinesaintdextro
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Re: Jealousy, is it love or hate? [Re: Asante]
    #26789106 - 06/28/20 07:59 AM (1 month, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Love is: If you are happier with that other person, then go, because I want the best for you.



                                                  True dat!


--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Jealousy, is it love or hate? [Re: saintdextro]
    #26789125 - 06/28/20 08:08 AM (1 month, 4 days ago)

Deeper.
Jealousy is insecurity.
Your nagging self doubt will be seemingly justified....I wasn't good enough.

We open ourselves up to when we allow love and praise.
When you have an ally that turns ( even though it is not their battle) we feel scorned.

Jealousy is an internal battle one that is waged before your ever in a union.
It'll destroy a healthy relationship before it's started.

Love yourself.
Come what may.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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Onlinesaintdextro
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Re: Jealousy, is it love or hate? [Re: pineninja]
    #26793137 - 06/29/20 08:14 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

...On a second thought, in Marriage, what's so wrong about owner the other? Don't they enter a pack, the wife owns the husband and the husband owns the wife, plus that would work out quite nice for the kids.


--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


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OfflineForrester
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Re: Jealousy, is it love or hate? [Re: saintdextro]
    #26794777 - 06/30/20 02:57 PM (1 month, 2 days ago)

A mutual agreement for the better of both usually seems to work better, and seem less creepy :lol:

To me anything that would limit my others' free will is not a loving relationship.


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Offlineemotionalmugger
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Re: Jealousy, is it love or hate? [Re: Forrester]
    #26827420 - 07/16/20 05:04 PM (17 days, 12 hours ago)

i hope the dude grows out of that ouchies shit  :flowers:


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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: Jealousy, is it love or hate? [Re: emotionalmugger]
    #26835915 - 07/21/20 11:28 AM (12 days, 18 hours ago)

Its definitely being selfish thats why i dont get Jelous i let my girl sees who wants when she wants to. That is how its should be in relationships i think.if you get Jelous than you have alot to work on .


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