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Offlinesaintdextro
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Jesus and Inebriation, why not?
    #26502333 - 02/24/20 09:18 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Why is alter states of mind from outside substance's suppressed and de-glorified by the Church? who could miss the benefits? we all can clearly see the flaws of Inebriation from Alcohol/Wine/Beer and Strong Drink, but are not the positive results and natural Chemistry of the Human body/mind in life's order clearly evident? Jesus felt Inebriated surely we can agree, to deny this is immature in my mind, just accept the fact that Human kind was meant to encounter, ingest, be effected by, and experiance inebriation, i've been suppressed for supposedly "Glorifying" Psychoactives, simply for stating there effects and results, not even because of "war stories" of how fucked up on coke I got one day or something like that, but the peaceful, dignified and healthy ingestion of Substance's,,, Alcohol/Wine was much used in Biblical times, a powerful mind altering substance, in my direct experiance a Eye/Mind opening and expanding Drug, it's not separate from other Substance's classification, though often is when classified in descriptive place's/situations as "Alcohol and Drugs," it's simply Drugs, both are in the same field, same class, for the same obvious reasons.

now what does the Bible say? lets look at some scripture:

Quote:

Matthew 11:16-19 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

16 “But to what will I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to one another,

17
‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
    we wailed, and you did not mourn.’

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon’; 19 the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.” ("Wisdom is proved right by her children",,,in other translations.)




do you really think Jesus and his disciples took just one small shot of wine at the Last Supper? more likely atleast one cup/glass, and I feel when i've drinken a glass of wine, I could feel the Inebriating effects, maybe Jesus weighed 400 pounds and it was nothing, but I just don't think that way. :lol:

Quote:

Proverbs 31 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
The Teaching of King Lemuel’s Mother


31 The words of King Lemuel. An oracle that his mother taught him:

2
No, my son! No, son of my womb!
    No, son of my vows!
3
Do not give your strength to women,
    your ways to those who destroy kings.
4
It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
    it is not for kings to drink wine,
    or for rulers to desire strong drink;
5
or else they will drink and forget what has been decreed,
    and will pervert the rights of all the afflicted.
6
Give strong drink to one who is perishing,
    and wine to those in bitter distress;
7
let them drink and forget their poverty,
    and remember their misery no more.
8
Speak out for those who cannot speak,
    for the rights of all the destitute.
9
Speak out, judge righteously,
    defend the rights of the poor and needy.





Like other passages in scripture, these verse's contains rightful critisism of Wine and Strong Drink, but i'm not saying it's a perfect Process or Experiance to drink, though look at the positive side of Wine and Strong Drink, it's an Herb to some people and situations!

Quote:

Temperance in Drinking Wine: Book of Sirach: Chapter 31:

25
Do not try to prove your strength by wine-drinking,
    for wine has destroyed many.
26
As the furnace tests the work of the smith,
    so wine tests hearts when the insolent quarrel.
27
Wine is very life to human beings
    if taken in moderation.
What is life to one who is without wine?
    It has been created to make people happy.
28
Wine drunk at the proper time and in moderation
    is rejoicing of heart and gladness of soul.
29
Wine drunk to excess leads to bitterness of spirit,
    to quarrels and stumbling.
30
Drunkenness increases the anger of a fool to his own hurt,
    reducing his strength and adding wounds.
31
Do not reprove your neighbor at a banquet of wine,
    and do not despise him in his merrymaking;
speak no word of reproach to him,
    and do not distress him by making demands of him.




This is from the Apocrypha, it has many chapters of wise and agreeable Proverbs and saying of the Wise, and I encourage you all to read it over a couple times (use your time on earth wisely, you might aswhell use your time to study the sayings of the wise!) however, there are some disagreeable sayings, such as don't be ashamed of beating a slave till he bleeds, a women's good is worse than a man's wickedness, Don't have fun with your kids or you'll share there pain (much more honorable to share share your childrens suffering just to have enjoyment/communion with them for a little while, imho), but this is about getting Inebriated, again some positive and negative qualities to this phenomenon, I think these scriptures got it right, I can live by it agreeably.

Quote:

Romans 14 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
Do Not Judge Another


14 Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions. 2 Some believe in eating anything, while the weak eat only vegetables. 3 Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat; for God has welcomed them. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. 6 Those who observe the day, observe it in honor of the Lord. Also those who eat, eat in honor of the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God.

7 We do not live to ourselves, and we do not die to ourselves. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
    and every tongue shall give praise to God.”

12 So then, each of us will be accountable to God.

Do Not Make Another Stumble

13 Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let your good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 The one who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and has human approval. 19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual up building. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for you to make others fall by what you eat; 21 it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother or sister stumble. 22 The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God. Blessed are those who have no reason to condemn themselves because of what they approve. 23 But those who have doubts are condemned if they eat, because they do not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.[n]




This chapter made me cry as a teenager, everyone around me was strait-edge and I was the out cast pothead/robotripper/drunk, or so I humorously consider myself compared to the others, I did however make mistakes, like taking 3 bottles of 5oz Delsym to my Bible study teachers house where he and they invited me to watch a movie there, too high to even properly light an under-age cigarette they surely despied, so I was like a confused teenager at the time, did'nt realize it would make me that blown away, I sincerely  apologize where ever your at, but we can laugh about now I guess, I should'nt have rubbed robo-tardnation in your face,,,the sunset was beautiful by the way, and nice house I must say. :lol: :stoned:

So my point is Christians should be more open to the potentials of Psychoactives, or atleast be kind, friendly and open minded to other's who do use them, don't be so judgemental!

My main goal I have for the Church is Meditation though, Drugs are less worthy of consideration for solving problems, atleast maybe they are, I don't know, what do you all think? Are Drugs more useful for the Church than Meditation? I Think they need to incorporate both. The Church need's more practicallity options, I love "Pactical Religions", while Christianity is accused of being a "Scholarly Religion", lets make both meet and prove are selves! worship music and reading the Bible are awesome, but why not more?


--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Jesus and Inebriation, why not? [Re: saintdextro] * 1
    #26503042 - 02/25/20 12:02 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

saintdextro said:
Why is alter states of mind from outside substance's suppressed and de-glorified by the Church?




I don't know but recently I figured maybe "I am the true vine" could be construed to ferment a prejudice.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus and Inebriation, why not? [Re: saintdextro]
    #26503366 - 02/25/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The standard prescription during Passover is to down an entire cup of wine between prayers. In my family as a child, we all took a sip...Except for my cousin Bruce who eben as a kid liked drinking to the point of passing out on his plate at the end of dinner. He died in 2004 of liver disease brought about by his use of intravenous heroin. He was everyone's favorite cousin and nephew. He was uber-athletic as a kid, he won butterfly swimming races, he taught me to water-ski. Even as a kid he was asked to blow the ram's horn shofar during the Jewish New Year service.

Then he got into drugs. He'd lay me onto a small piece of hash after borrowing my home laboratory scale or balance for his dealing, and later gave me a couple of Seconals stolen from his mom. These barbiturates got him and his younger brother started on downers. His younger brother was traumatized at age 13 when he found his father, my uncle, hanging. He never received therapy. I am convinced that this pain led to a lifetime of addiction to barbiturates, , alcohol, and heroin. Alcohol has its ritual place, but unless one worships Dionysos, drunkenness has no place in Judaism or Christianity or it their lesser known hybrids Messianic Judaism and Jewish Christianity.

IF Iesous is the person referred to by the 'suffering servant' passage of Isaiah 53:3, then he is described as "despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Clearly he is not depicted in Isaiah as some God-intoxicated Dionysian Bacchante or stoned Hindu sannyasin. The New Testament says nothing about his appearance or personality but these were midrashic stories written after the fact, not eye-witness accounts. There was no reporter from the Bethlehem Gazette taking notes on an incandescent baby in a manger under an astronomical anomaly either! :lol:

Your ending words suggest that you are disclosing guilt over irresponsible adolescent behavior at a Bible study. You do not have to be in a 12-Step program to seek out people to 'make amends,' and although one never knows if one's apologies are going to be accepted, all one can do is offer them. Substances are a problem for many people and inebriation is not the point of religion, religion is the point and the very word religion from the Latin religare means 'to bind,' just as the word yoga, from yug, means 'to yoke.' The point of both is to connect the human mind to the Divine Mind, howsoever conceived. While inebriants may soften one's heart, they all too often soften one's brain and 'wet brain' is not a healthy consequence for anyone religious or secular.

Initiation is a whole other ballgame. Jewish Bar Mitzvah, Christian Baptism, Confirmations, Marriage, Sacraments, etc. probably do not meet everyone's need for connection to the Divine. There probably ought to be something like the Mystery Rites of Eleusis that were conducted in Greece for a thousand years before the Christian Church put an end to it. This would be a psychedelic sacrament like the kykeon was at Eleusis.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinesaintdextro
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Re: Jesus and Inebriation, why not? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26504510 - 02/26/20 08:27 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I don't suggest worshipping alchohol in church, but rather using it still more than a sacrimental sip. For communion I feel a sip is all should be taken, but at home or somewhere safe it could be drunk, I don't even drink that often, I have a natty daddy that's been cooling in my apartment for close to 2 months now, I just don't have much interest in drinking it.

But sorta the way alcohol loosens the tongue, it loosens the thoughts, a heart release, it makes me more emotionally sensitive, the disasters from it are clear and visible, but I've used alcohol and thought positive thoughts about God, to me I would call it mind-expansive, temporary effects but there is still a residue of experiance that I feel I grew from it.

Surely you're not saying you can't be a real Christian if you drink when you say it has no place in Christianity/Judaism, the Bible may not be drunkenly inspired by wine, but wine can aid the spiritual experiance. (I think that scroll John swallowed in Revelations was some type of drug though. :grin:)


--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus and Inebriation, why not? [Re: saintdextro] * 1
    #26504813 - 02/26/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Read it again. I said, drunkenness has no place in Judaism or Christianity You deny much drinking, but you sure are dwelling on it in these posts. Alcohol is a depressant drug. It effects the frontal lobe in moderate doses and has a disinhibiting effect on higher cortical functions of judgement, discretion, and behavior. The religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are Apollonian, not Dionysian. They were formed by very rational thinkers: Maimonides, Aquinas, and Avicenna, respectively. All of these religions put reason first, but paradoxically the reason is based on non-rational religious assertions. Reason demands control of the emotions while alcohol and other inebriants diminish rational thinking and excite the emotions. Wine is Rajasic, or passion-inducing of the 3 gunas in Ayurveda, for example.

You are obviously free to 'believe' any thing you want, but if you want to Know what the authors of ancient texts really meant then you'll have to do actual research and not apply your own ideas. That's just projection of your own material and it reveals what your own preferences are or it discloses that for YOU, substances are required for non-ordinary perceptions. There are mystics, prophets, and visionaries who have had spontaneous awakenings to alternative realities. Religions are usually constructed around the experiences of those people (Buddha, Iesous, Muhammed, Zoroaster, etc.) and followers of that religion are bid to 'believe' in the religious experience of its originator. But again, you are free to 'believe,' create, or imagine anything. I certainly have when I've taken mushrooms sacramentally.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinesaintdextro
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Re: Jesus and Inebriation, why not? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26504831 - 02/26/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I don't understand your accusation that i'm dwelling on alcohol in the thread, if it has to do with the first post quotations, well, alcohol is the main drug they had in biblical times, if it's been over emphasized in the bible, than your argument falls apart, it seems.(joking, :lol:)
but you can believe i'm alcoholic, I take no offence, because though it's prescribed by a psychiatrist, I feel i'm more a speed freak,,,sorry kids, just as shameful as alcohol, because none the less you depend on it to function everyday.


--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


Edited by saintdextro (02/26/20 12:55 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus and Inebriation, why not? [Re: saintdextro] * 1
    #26507089 - 02/27/20 07:04 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I am not making accusations so don't spin it that way please. Alcohol is NOT in the lexicon of prescribed medications so whatever your psychiatrist has said to you it is not a clinical prescription for alcohol. In fact it is just plain unprofessional and unethical like it was for a physician to recommend to my father that he start smoking again for digestive purposes!

IF you are disclosing that you suffer from alcoholism ("...you can believe i'm alcoholic..."), then your psychiatrist's 'prescription' is not just unprofessional and unethical, but criminal. I do not condemn, accuse, or insult people with afflictions, I'm not a Trumpster). I am a Board Certified Master Addictions Counselor for many years.

Alcohol was in the Bible since it was the first inebriant ever discovered, but besides the Jewish Passover and perhaps the merriment of the wedding at Cana where Iesous was said to convert water into wine, the religious use in later history was merely ritualistic. The Greek wines were made with psychoactive plants so that they had to be diluted 20:1 with water or they could kill a person, but that was Greek Pagan culture not Christianity. At Eleusis in Greece a psychedelic ritual sacrament, the Kykeon, was used for 1000 years in secret Mystery Rites, but yeah, this was not biblical either.

Wine cultures such as Jewish, Italian, and French do not have the same degrees of alcoholism as do liquor-cultures like Irish and Russian drinking cultures, but an alcoholic can certainly be wine-addicted ('wino') or beer. Regardless of the form, alcoholism is a mental disorder and needs to be treated as life-threatening. My ex-wife is hospitalized with alcoholic dementia, malnutrition, anemia, osteoporosis, following 6 arrests and incarcerations in 3 months. She might have already died but I haven't heard from her nephew who I recently re-connected with after 28 years. It's nothing to take lightly. She preferred cheap white wine by the half gallon.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinesaintdextro
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Re: Jesus and Inebriation, why not? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26507690 - 02/28/20 06:55 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

nah i'm not an alcoholic, close to leading to being one though, because I would drink every night when I was 21, things changed and so did habits, personally I usually avoid drunk people because I don't like there behaviour, it's uncomfertible to be around while i'm sober, but I do think there are benefits to it's inebriating effects, you can use it maturely, with dignity, in moderation etc...

Paul did recommend it for medicinal reasons in the Epistle to Timothy, but i'm refering to it's psychoactive effects, they can be beneficial, just like Mushrooms are used. (let's set aside the comparison to Adderall, I see how foolish it would be of me to pursue that line!)


--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


Edited by saintdextro (02/28/20 07:22 AM)


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