| Home | Community | Message Board |
|
You are not signed in. Sign In New Account | Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery » |
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.
|
| Shop: |
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
The Wet’suwet’en Standoff
You might not have heard about it, but on the morning of February 6th the RCMP began a militarized invasion of the Wet'suwet'en Nation with the stated goal of forcibly removing indigenous people from their land in order to enforce a court injunction granted to Coastal GasLink (CGL). In response Canada is currently facing its longest ever rail blockade - we're heading into week three now. From what I've seen, this has been getting almost no coverage - and what coverage you do see from corporate media is obviously industry-funded misinformation - but this is big and that's why you won't see much. Luckily for us, we get our dose of politics from a drug forum. Ok so first I want to give some context. Unlike much of eastern Canada and the United States, only two First Nations of BC signed treaties with the Crown. Much of the rest is unceded and unsurrendered. In 1984, after years of fruitless negotiations with the provincial and federal governments, the hereditary chiefs of the Wet’suwet’en and the neighbouring Gitxsan Nation brought forward a land title suit. It would culminate in one of the most significant rulings in Canadian law. At trial, the Wet’suwet’en and Gitxsan spent more than 300 days presenting evidence, relaying oral histories about their land and connection to it, sometimes in their own languages, sometimes in ceremonial songs. It was an entire community process. Everybody was part of that, the Elders and the hereditary chiefs, they all spoke at the trial. But at the end of the day, it was a victory and then not a victory at the same time. The Supreme Court of Canada’s 1997 decision in Delgamuukw v. British Columbia confirmed the validity of oral history as evidence. Further, the court recognized Wet’suwet’en hereditary governance and that Indigenous nations’ interests in their land predate the Crown - which is pretty obvious - and that these interests exist today, that they still have these land interests within Canadian law. But the bad side of this is that the court decided that at earlier stages in the case, some technical matters had gone awry. The court recognized that the Wet’suwet’en and Gitxsan had title - but said that due to technical errors they would have to go back to court in order to figure out where that title applied. The Gitxsan and Wet’suwet’en didn’t have the resources to go through this again. It exhausted them getting through once. That’s where we’ve been since 1997. It’s clear the Gitxsan and Wet’suwet’en have title, but Canadian courts haven’t said exactly what they think it looks like exactly on the ground, where it is and so on. Importantly, Delgamuukw made clear that the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs are the title holders - not the band councils, which have control only over the small parcels of land allotted to reserves. After Delgamuukw, the B.C. and Canadian governments continued on as if nothing had happened. It was clear the province of BC was just ignoring Aboriginal title. The BC government's position during those years was ‘Well, we don’t have to do anything about it. Until it’s established on the ground we can just ignore its existence.’ And they went ahead and gave forestry licenses to people and mining claims or stakes. And so another nation in BC went to court. In 2004, the Supreme Court of Canada recognized in Haida Nation v. British Columbia that even if an Indigenous nation has not established title or rights in a Canadian court, their title and rights exist. The court basically said that even in that kind of case you need to have consultation taking place because at some point these rights are going to be established and then you will have to have paid attention to them somehow. And that’s why "consultation" has become this big industry since then - but consultation means very little in practice, as seen in the provincial and federal governments’ insistence that it does not mean Indigenous nations have the power to veto projects. Okay back to the Wet’suwet’en - their territory in northern BC has been of interest as a pipeline corridor since at least 2007. Ignoring the fact that there was no consent from the Wet'suwet'en nation to build on their land, construction went ahead on a pipeline to transport liquefied natural gas obtained via fracking in northeast BC to a processing terminal on the Pacific coast at Kitimat - it is touted as the single most expensive private sector investment project in Canadian history, but it's receiving billions in government subsidies and is unlikely to even be profitable considering the current price of LNG. This conflict has been building for at least a decade but came to a height in January of last year when the injunction against the Unist'ot'en Camp was finally enforced by the RCMP. The Wet’suwet’en people were removed by force from their land and CGL workers allowed in to begin construction work. Over the next year, the Wet'suwet'en were forced to watch as portions of the culturally significant Kweese trail were destroyed. Across Canada marches and sit-ins were held opposing the action of the Canadian state, and the Wet'suwet'en went to court to get the injunction revoked (particularly on grounds that an essential environmental assessment had not yet been approved). January of this year, the court finally made its decision and upheld the injunction. Rather than accept the Canadian state ignoring its own law, the Wet'suwet'en turned to their own law and issued an eviction to both CGL workers and RCMP on their territory. It didn't take long for the RCMP to return to their traditional role of making way for industry by clearing indigenous people off of their land by force. Only this time people aren't taking anymore shit. Trudeau had said years ago that he was going to bring in legislation specific to Indigenous land rights within ten months but all his talk about "nation to nation relations" was placating lies - he refuses to even meet with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs. The BC government had just made a huge commotion about being the first Canadian province to pass the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples literally months ago, and when it was pointed out that removing indigenous peoples from their land goes directly against it we are told that the UNDRIP was a piece of "forward looking" legislation that doesn't apply here. In the immediate aftermath, #ReconciliationIsDead and #ShutdownCanada began trending. Blockades were thrown up on the rails, roads, ports, and legislature. The Unist'ot'en had done their work in planting seeds over the decade - people from all over had come to spend time at their yearly action camps and the story of the Wet'suwet'en people was spread when they returned home. This combined with quality video captured from the raids and widely shared across social media and alternative newsites (despite an RCMP attempt to limit media access) helped the issue to immediately blow up from coast to coast. I'm always happy to see the Wet'suwet'en working closely with anarchist indie-media (particularly sub.media). The most beautiful part of all this is that these actions are autonomous and decentralized - there's no single source or leader behind these blockades. People across Canada know that what happened is a continuation of Canada's colonialism and we won't stand for it anymore - 40% of Canadians are in support of the blockades, which is more than any single political party got in the last election. Shutting down the rails has proven particularly effective because of how vulnerable thousands of kilometres of a single track network is to blockades and sabotage, and how dependent the Canadian economy is on rail transit. The demands of the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs are simple: the blockades will not end until (1) RCMP completely withdraws from Wet'suwet'en territory, (2) CGL immediately suspends all activities on Wet'suwet'en territory, and (3) once the first two conditions are met, the BC and Canadian state leaders engage in nation-to-nation discussions on Wet'suwet'en territory with hereditary leaders. An alternative pipeline route has already been proposed by the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs that was unilaterally rejected by CGL. This fight is more than a fight against pipelines - this is a fight centered on indigenous land rights and the brazen attempt by the colonial Canadian state to extinguish the rights on the behalf of private resource extraction industry. There's a lot more to this story - past, present, and future - but I'll end this OP with a roundup of some of the more informative articles I've found: 1 - Special: Gitdimten Access Point Before The Raid 2 - Industry, government pushed to abolish Aboriginal title at issue in Wet’suwet’en stand-off, docs reveal 3 - Untangling the ‘rule of law’ in the Coastal GasLink pipeline standoff 4 - The Wet'suwet'en, Aboriginal Title, and the Rule of Law: An Explainer 5 - The Wet’suwet’en are more united than pipeline backers want you to think 6 - Wet’suwet’en bahlat reaffirms Coastal GasLink and RCMP must go 7 - The Wet’suwet’en and the Space Between 8 - Wet’suwet’en crisis: Canada needs to check its privilege 9 - The army can’t stop the Wet’suwet’en solidarity movement 10 - Reconciliation is Dead: A Strategic Proposal 11 - Canada is Fake 12 - Taking Surveillance Seriously 13 - 'Highly inappropriate’: Hereditary chief slams Crown corporation for considering giving loan to Coastal GasLink amidst Wet’suwet’en protests 14 - 6 awkward realities behind B.C.’s big LNG giveaway Direct updates: https://m.facebook.com/unistoten
| |||||||
|
Unapproved Puppet Registered: 02/07/20 Posts: 169 Last seen: 3 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
I find it hard to navigate all this with the bizarre or vague language like "house territory", "aboriginal title" and the constant stream of apostrophes.
All I know is they lost in the Br'it'ish Co'lum'bi'a Supreme Court and and now are launching a constitutional challenge based on the P'ar'is Accord. At the same time they are saying it's alright if the pipeline goes the long way around. Wouldn't that contradict C'an'da's obligations under the P'ar'is Accord just as much as the company's preferred route?
| |||||||
|
Unapproved Puppet Registered: 02/07/20 Posts: 169 Last seen: 3 years, 10 months |
| ||||||
|
Send the damn thing the long way around. It's pretty accommodating of their nation to suggest that.
They don't want this thing running through their land they live on, they don't care what the court says, it's the court of an occupying nation. Not surprising it went against them. Coast gas link is crazy to push this through where it's not wanted. I'd be afraid of sabotage. That's what can happen when you piss a bunch of people off like this. Even if the public pays for the extra cost of the longer, more challenging route, it's a small price to pay for peace. There's already a pipeline up at the alternate route. Let that be the corridor to the Douglas channel for all this stuff they want to sell to China.
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
Post deleted by Enlil
Reason for deletion: Racist bullshit -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII Edited by MadMuncher (02/24/20 08:52 PM)
| |||||||
|
Total Noob Registered: 09/06/17 Posts: 1,457 Loc: New York City Last seen: 7 months, 20 minutes |
| ||||||
|
Reported. Maybe your people should try winning a war?
-------------------- I'm a Lightweight. I like to eat like two caps at a time.
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
(Not Too) quietly working on it. -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII
| |||||||
|
Club 27 Registered: 12/18/12 Posts: 12,340 Loc: attending Snake Church Last seen: 6 hours, 38 minutes |
| ||||||
|
I've been reading that the RR blockade is really screwing up grain shipments. IMO Canada is going to have to use force, back down, negotiated compromise, or something. They can't just let the stalemate continue.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
| |||||||
|
Registered: 09/21/18 Posts: 4,051 Loc: Parts Unknown Last seen: 16 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Edit:
Keep the overt racism out of Political Discussion. This is a polite warning -------------------- Lysergamides I have tried so far: 1P-LSD, 1cP-LSD, ALD-52, AL-LAD, LSZ, ETH-LAD, MIPLA, EIPLA, 1cP-AL-LAD Edited by ballsalsa (02/27/20 11:02 AM)
| |||||||
|
Cosmic Guru Ganesh Registered: 07/12/13 Posts: 14,471 Last seen: 3 hours, 5 minutes |
| ||||||
Quote: It's cringeworthy to hear such unearnered sanctimonious egotism. I'm college educated and had a horrible accident which sent me into many surgeries and more injuries. I worked and went to school through what I could and my conditions are worse now. It's not just illegals that need better healthcare. Good for you, you have money but don't pretend like you know the plight of everybody in America who has trouble getting work -------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
dont read it too many times its bad poison. the war is against that mentality.
sick part is theres good points in there but its too toxic to respond to. people like that want to see the genocide finished because we hate most about others what we despise in ourselves. feel better, friend -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII
| |||||||
|
LSx Registered: 02/26/08 Posts: 12,086 |
| ||||||
Quote: You are weak. Hope you get banned for being an offensive cunt.
| |||||||
|
Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 3,556 Last seen: 4 hours, 31 minutes |
| ||||||
Quote: LOL
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
Mod edit: tone down the racism
-------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII Edited by ballsalsa (02/27/20 10:05 AM)
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
A couple first hand accounts from the raid at Tyendinaga: ![]() Art by Gord Hill (more: https://warriorpublications.word A lot has happened this week - I'll be back later with some updates and discussion. Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/27/20 04:45 PM)
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Also, I'm glad everyone got to see an example of the vile anti-indigenous racism that exists in Canada. Every time reconciliation and indigenous rights threaten the status quo of the Canadian settler state, the true colours of the huge percentage of Canadians unwilling to acknowledge their role in a still ongoing process of colonialism show.
| |||||||
|
Stragler Registered: 09/06/19 Posts: 3,365 Loc: Bravos Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
| ||||||
|
This is so bizarre... who hates Native Americans? I can’t even think of a single stereotype for NMs.
Seriously, what’s the deal? Are they taking your jobs like them dang Mesikins do in the US? Are they stealing your womens, you insecure weirdo? Either way, it’s definitely possible to have a comeback after an attempted genocide....take it from a Jew... It helps if your families have 5-10 kids each generation
| |||||||
|
of a bygone era Registered: 10/14/14 Posts: 5,623 Loc: the right coast |
| ||||||
Quote: NDN is better than Indians or Natives or Native Americans, etc. And RE: stereotypes; my wife has heard them all...they're all retarded/cant learn like whites can; they're all alcoholics and/or drug addicts; all NDN women scream rape if you even look at them wrong (even though a claim of rape by an NDN woman was barely ever followed up upon by LE prior to 1980-ish)...and many more, but I'm getting fucking violently pissed off the more I think and write about it so I'm done for now. Re: rapes Prevalence rates of rape of women by race in the United States: Asian/Pacific Islander: 6.8% Hispanic/Latina: 11.9% White:17.7% Black: 18.8% American Indian/Alaska Native: 34.1% Mixed Race: 24.4% Sexual assault in K-12 educational settings against trans people of color: Asian/Pacific Islander: 17% Black: 15% Native Americans: 24% Multiracial: 18%
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: A lot of these terms have been left intentionally vague by the Canadian government so that the courts can continue to provide generous interpretations that benefit resource extraction corporations. I'm not sure which Supreme Court decision you refer to, but this article does a great job summarizing both the general legal history of indigenous land title in Canada as well as the situation as it specifically applies to the Wet’suwet’en: https://www.canadianlawyermag.co As for the Paris Accords, your correct that the mass amount of fracking in northeast BC that will result from this pipeline being built will make it unlikely Canada will be able to meet its goals - but it's also important to understand that this situation is more appropriately framed as an indigenous rights issue, rather than an environmental one. It explains the reactions of the Canadian State and people much better.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: I was completely unaware of the depth of the problem until I left the cities for the more removed places in Canada. Hitchhiking across the northern Prairie provinces and up into BC and the Yukon helped me learn a lot about history of Canada and the reality today. I live in the Yukon now, and this territory is at the forefront of indigenous self-government in Canada - if not the world. 11 of the 14 Yukon First Nations have "Final Agreements" (modern treaties). Final Agreements are comprehensive land claim agreements that exchange undefined Aboriginal rights for defined treaty rights and title to Settlement Land. The Yukon is home to approximately half of all comprehensive land claim and Self-Government Agreements in Canada. The Indian Act no longer applies to these First Nations, and they can make laws and decisions on their Settlement Land and for their citizens similar to those of a Canadian province or territory. https://mappingtheway.ca This is the inevitable future that the settler State will violently resist to the bitter end - but rest assured, it's end is coming
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: It looks like this government is hoping it can allow the blockades to remain up long enough for the corporate media to turn the general public against the indigenous protesters and their allies, and then it will attempt to shut them down using State violence. That is how things have played out in the past. At Oka: At Ipperwash: At Gustafsen lake: At Elsipogtog:
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: Canada is a colonial state. The quality of life that the average Canadian enjoys is directly connected to the exploitation of indigenous peoples and their land, and so indigenous land rights directly threatens the status quo. That's apparently enough to make a large amount of people hate you.
| |||||||
|
of a bygone era Registered: 10/14/14 Posts: 5,623 Loc: the right coast |
| ||||||
Quote: There are examples of your intellect and intelligence in many of your posts in this sub, IMO. Your gratuitous, petty, banal, and unfunny mocking of a tribal name is completely counter to that image and works to undermine the credibility and good will you've previously cultivated through your posts. I thought I wanted to ask you what possessed you to do such a thing, but I realized I no longer give a shit to read what you write.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
So updates from this week.
On Monday the rail blockade at Tyendinaga was raided by Ontario Provincial Police (OPP). This had predictable results. Several new blockades were immediately thrown up across the country and the blockade at Tyendinaga was reoccupied before the day was over. When the RCMP began to arrest Gixtsan people, who had reformed their blockades (which had been ended earlier in good faith) in response to the raid on the Mohawks, a crowd surrounded the RCMP and refused to let them leave with any prisoners. Many of the other blockades don't last more than 48hrs and we are entering into a game of injunction wack-a-mole, but even 48hrs is enough to cause significant disturbance. A distinct trend towards militancy is spreading. Maps like these are being shared: ![]() The Mohawks have a lot of experience in these types of confrontations - I wouldn't expect them to back down. One big change from the past is that modern communication technologies makes its much more difficult for the Canadian State to control the narrative. Last I've seen is that the Mohawks are digging in and preparing for a fight. Here's a little round-up of some articles from this week: - Stakes mount at blockade in Kahnawake — and now, Kanesatake, too - Blockades in support of Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs might be the start of a long, hot summer - CN train engine collides with wooden pallets at Tyendinaga - Behind CN, CP's quiet deal to skirt railway blockades and keep Canada's vital goods moving This article is an example of how misinformation is used to turn public sentiment against indigenous protesters. A big complaint against the blockades has been that they threaten shipments of essential supplies. Ignoring the part where many native communities perpetually lack these essential supplies without much response from the general population, instead of reporting that a solution has been found to ensure the essential supplies are still transported the government and corporations allowed this misinformation to spread. - OPP gave intelligence, identities of Tyendinaga Mohawks to CN Rail without legal challenge And this article touches on the close role between industry and State in colonial systems. The RCMP was, by and large, formed to ensure that the railway could be built - and the railway was built to allow both government control and industrial expansion across the continent. To this day, CN has a legitimate police force - CN rail police are actual police - and numerous other examples where our police forces have essentially operated as private security for private industry exist all the way up to CSIS spying on Canadian citizens on behalf of resource extraction corporations. And this is why the Canadian State responds with such violence - but maybe more violence won't be necessary this time. Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs had a meeting with representatives of the Crown today and released this statement:
| |||||||
|
of a bygone era Registered: 10/14/14 Posts: 5,623 Loc: the right coast |
| ||||||
|
Thanks for your dedication to keeping the Shroomery updated, shivas.wisdom.
| |||||||
|
Chilldog Extraordinaire Registered: 11/11/09 Posts: 33,362 Loc: 'Merica Last seen: 11 hours, 5 minutes |
| ||||||
|
Have any elected officials hinted at a possible long term “solution” to these blockades? Obviously they’ll continue to be replicated so long as the police raid remains their strategy.
Also, whats the PM had to say about this? Or is he remaining silent? --------------------
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: Not really - there's lots of talk about 'peaceful dialogue', 'meaningful discussions' and all those vague terms politicians love but it amounts to nothing. People aren't having it anymore - this is where the slogan 'Reconciliation is Dead' comes from - we won't believe liars anymore. Concrete action, not promises, is the only thing that will convince people at this point. Personally, I'm not even listening to the Canadian politicians anymore. I'm getting my updates on negotiations from the various indigenous leaders as they report back, because our politicians only speak in mistruths and outright lies. I know most people in support of the blockades are doing the same. Claims from the mouth of a Canadian politician are lies until verified by the hereditary chiefs. There are pre-existing legal frameworks for what must happen - recognition of indigenous self-government and land title - Canada has maybe two dozen First Nations who have reached these types of agreements with the Canadian government - including at least one or maybe two in BC. These are not solutions any Canadian politician seems willing to champion though, because - to be blunt - resource extraction corporations has enormous potential influence in Canada and indigenous rights are bad for the industry. Quote: He gave the same talk about the need for peaceful and meaningful dialogue but stopped short of agreeing to actually meet with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs. Then a week ago he came out saying [paraphrasing] "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas" and that it was time for the blockades to come down. And within 72hrs the police raids on the blockades had begun. He's still refusing to meet with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs. It's all bullshit and no one who isn't blinded by anti-indigenous racism has any faith in our politicians. One of Trudeau's big campaign promises in 2015 was to end boil water advisories in our First Nations communities. Five years later and despite all the "meaningful dialogue" we still have dozens upon dozens of First Nations communities that have been on boil water advisories for decades. Reconciliation is dead. And then you have people getting upset at the possibility that these rail blockades will limit the supply of chlorine most Canadian cities depend on to treat their water systems. Because a hypothetical situation is more threatening than an actual situation that has persisted for entire generations. Meanwhile, BC just made a huge deal only three months ago about being the first Canadian province to officially enshrine the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP) into law. Well, they definitely failed their first real test of that legislation. The first real session of talks happened today - I don't know what the report back will say.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Also, in case people are interested in what an actual attack on free speech looks like...
My friend was released with conditions after spending two days in jail - they were essentially jumped by plainclothes cops while walking home in Toronto and arrested for allegedly participating in a rail blockade earlier in the day. One of their conditions for release restricts the use or engagement of any social media platform to promote/support/encourage Wet'suwet'en solidarity actions or support. I'm sure they aren't the only one with this condition. Looking back at indigenous uprisings in Canada's history, excluding independent media from the site before major police/military operations has been standard operating procedure. That's been difficult to achieve in a world where smartphones and social media allows video to be shared nationwide live as it happens. These conditions are just one of the State responses to the new reality. Just in case you still weren't sure which side you were on.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Canada isn't exactly known for its free speech protection.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Neither is the USA unless your particular flavour of free speech is hate speech.
Anyways... New tune from Tribe Called Red released in solidarity with the Wet'suwet'en nation and all indigenous led protests across Turtle Island
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Completely false. Protection is far more robust in the u.s. That order would never fly here.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
I don't believe you. Make a thread about it if you want to jerk off about your robust protections but this ain't the place for your useless one liners.
I'm angry. This release condition most likely violates Canadians right to free expression but the police have never hesitated before about violating our rights until we can defend them later in the courts. I have multiple friends in jail right now. On top of militarized police forces, we're dealing with right-wing vigilante attacks - trucks running through blockades, masked people showing up to dismantle camps, and surrounding blockades at night. Historically, indigenous led blockades have turned into the largest police operations in this countries history with tens of thousands of rounds fired so shit is very tense even though people aren't willing to back down. People have been at this for weeks now. We're exhausted. We don't know what tomorrow holds. You're posts here are incredibly tone deaf.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
You don't seem to have the same degree of anger about people using force to blockade rail lines. Those people are victimizing Canadian citizens. Those people are reprehensible. That the government is also reprehensible does not absolve anything.
I guess you're a "the ends justify the means" kind of guy. Also, you're the one who compared it to the U.S.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Why would I be angry at the oppressed for taking a stand against hundreds of years of colonial violence?
Indigenous peoples are engaged in PEACEFUL actions. Where land defenders have stationed themselves outside buildings, providing information and putting pressure on policy-makers, these actions have been compared to labour actions, and in fact have been respected as such. Meaning, a number of unions have come out with statements that they regard these actions the same as they would a strike, and they will not cross that picket line. Dr. Glen Coulthard recently cited Harsha Walia as arguing the same consideration should be given to land defence. The labour comparison can take us further, because we have been experiencing a steady erosion of labour rights, rights that were hard fought for, and hard won. At the core of that steady erosion is the manipulation of public opinion, which invariably paints labour actions as “threatening safety”. How? By withdrawing labour, health workers “threaten” public health, striking teachers “threaten” the ability of parents to work and put students at academic risk, picketing construction workers “threaten” the economy, etc etc. More and more we have seen governments tabling back-to-work legislation, and criminalizing labour actions, all in the name of “public safety”. The particular bargaining unit in any given situation is demonized: they are greedy, lazy, paradoxically “essential” while also being completely replaceable and unimportant. I point all this out to show you that any segment of the population can be rendered “the enemy”, even those who are supposedly “protected” by unions. Those without robust labour protections are even more vulnerable to the rhetoric of “public safety”. Indigenous peoples have ALWAYS been scapegoated as a danger to settler society. Rooted in racist tropes of their savagery and unsuitability to the modern world, they are often portrayed as threat. And what is the threat they present at this moment? Some folks are refusing to be evicted from their land. In solidarity, other folks are blocking, or camping alongside railway tracks. No one is quantifying or qualifying what this ACTUALLY means in terms of real impact. In fact, we recently learned that the CN and Canadian Pacific had come together to broker a “work around” to keep essential supplies flowing. So at this point of descent into angry settlerhood, the danger is an amorphous, existential threat. Not directed at anyone and their family though. Rather, the railway is a symbol of Confederation in a tangible, but also very mythological sense. The “threat” people are responding to is mostly (I believe) based in the feeling that we threaten Canadian coherence. It is vital to remember, Indigenous peoples have not harmed anyone. We have not attacked, beaten, or threatened anyone. We have not pointed guns at anyone's husband, wife or children. We have not removed anyone's children and forced them into residential schools. We have not criminalized anyone's family, locked up their relatives, administrated their poverty, created legislation to specifically discriminate against them and their family, nor have we engaged the media over centuries to vilify them and their family, then scold them for getting upset. We have not removed generation after generation of anyone’s family, forced them to speak another language, punished them for practicing their culture, physically or sexually abused them, sterilized them, sent them far away to hospitals where some of them simply disappeared. I could go on, for a long, long time. I hope you get my point. The violence that Canada is inflicting, right now, on Indigenous peoples is real. It is intense. It murders, it pardons our murderers, it poisons us in the name of “the greater good”, it turns society against us. What Indigenous peoples are facing is no existential threat, it is a tsunami of death and pain and torment, every single day. It is REAL. Angry settlers merely *imagine* what *might* happen if their fantasies about the savagery of the Indian play out. Half of Canada wants us punished and harmed because they are afraid, and their fears consume them. These people justify their cowardice and racism by invoking the figures of "victimizing Canadian citizens". Well listen, Enlil, and the rest of settlerdom. You and your families are absolutely being harmed. You are at risk. And it has nothing at all, NOTHING, to do with Indigenous people. Your labour rights are being eroded by neoliberal governments. Your lives are becoming increasingly precarious as the quality of your labour protections are stripped away; you work longer hours for less pay, in more dangerous circumstances, and if you complain you risk losing even the scraps left to you. Your healthcare systems are being systematically stripped to make way for privatized healthcare. Doctors are leaving in droves, maybe you cannot even find a family doctor. Your health coverage means less and less each passing year, and as you age, you need more care, not less. Your environment is poisoning you. If you, like most Canadians, are located in an urban centre, environmental pollution is cutting down your life expectancy, and that of your children. It is bestowing upon you disorders, allergies, diseases. Outside the cities, the land and waters are still sickened. The animals are ill. It all affects you too. Your education system is being torn apart in the service of neo-liberalism. Your class sizes soar, and your children suffer, directly, in reality, not just in your fears. Housing is becoming a dream, a thing your children may never actually have for their own as they are priced out not just of home ownership, but even rentals. The “gig” economy has them stretched to the breaking point just trying to make ends meet, just trying to access minimums. Enlil, if you aren’t absolutely terrified for the well-being and safety of your family over all this, then you are in deep, deep denial. But I don’t think you are unaware of all this. In fact, I think it leaves you sleepless sometimes. I think worrying about all of these realities actively harms your health, because it’s truly awful shit. And the worst part is, I think you feel helpless to keep your family safe, because these threats are hurtling towards you from every side. You don’t have a second to breathe because the hits keep coming. Indigenous peoples are not your enemies. Indigenous peoples are not threatening or harming your family. In fact, we are ALL being harmed by the things Indigenous peoples are fighting against. On top of that they are being harmed in ways you are not. When you paint us as a threat to "Canadian citizens", when you let all your pent up fear and stress and feelings of hopelessness coalesce into a fight response aimed at us, you relieve some deep down need in yourself to DO SOMETHING. But the rational part of you absolutely needs to recognize that you actively make your family more unsafe by doing this, by scapegoating us, and by ignoring the larger picture, the picture where you are only valued slightly higher than Indigenous peoples, because of your skin colour, your support for the settler colonial state, your health, your cishetero presentation, your socioeconomic class. And if you slip up, get sick, get too queer, slip down the rungs of prosperity, you’ll be only slightly less reviled than we are. Ignoring all of this is the real danger to "regular" citizens. If you love them as much as you almost certainly do, then you need to fight for a better now, and an even better future. You aren’t going to accomplish any of that by making us the enemy, “the threat”. Instead you actively shore up the power of the state that DOES. NOT. LOVE. YOU. Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/29/20 04:29 PM)
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Time to reread MLK's letter from a Birmingham jail:
Quote:
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
You believe that indigenous people haven't harmed anyone? Is that what you really believe? Or is that just what you tell yourself? That's an absurd statement. Clearly the blockades have harmed many, many people. A discussion can be had about injustices that indigenous people have suffered, but none of that changes the fact that people ARE being harmed by the blockades.
You seemed to have picked a side, and you're perfectly okay with anything that supports your side. I don't work that way. I'm not on either side. People are accountable for their own actions, and the actions of these scumbags blockading railroads is disgusting. If your friends were participating, they deserved to be arrested. They're scumbags. If they weren't, then an injustice was done by arresting them. Even if they are scumbags, however, that doesn't justify a gag order on them. That's reprehensible, too. Bottom line: These criminal scumbags that are harming huge portions of Canada's population by blockading railways are in fact also hurting their own people. Actions like this leave the impression that the indigenous people are just lawless rabble rousers who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. Instead of rallying people behind their cause, they are going to alienate themselves and make their cause look unjust. Martin Luther King would find your invocation of his words deplorable. At no point did he advocate cutting off supply lines, and he would absolutely not see this as civil disobedience. The ends never justify the means.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
The ends never justify the means? Absolutes like that are how you end up having to argue against slave revolts and ghetto uprisings.
Beside, the only harm these blockades have caused is economic harm. Economic sabotage is a legitimate and non-violent tactic - blockades are indistinguishable in effect from a general strike. Do you disagree that economic sabotage is not a legitimate tactic? Perhaps you have evidence that these blockades have caused physical harm to Canadians? Or are you just calling people scumbags because of hypotheticals you made up in your head? I've already heard your sentiment - scumbag is one of the nicer things I've been called recently. The population of Canada is divided over this but pretty much everyone agrees that the country is broken. Still, 30% support the blockades and 50% stand in solidarity even if they disagree with the methods - that's more than enough to bring this country to a standstill until our politicians start respecting indigenous nations. 'Canada is broken,' say majority of Canadians in poll taken in wake of rail blockades ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() The revolution will not be televised And here's the situation in a format we can all understand:
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
good shit Shiva speak truth forever
Quote: it takes a lot to be heard the propaganda machine is very loud and the hate is very real. i cant remember the last time a native person ran over a bunch of people downtown, or blew up a hotel or a hospital, or shot up a church, wal-mart, school, summer camp, redneck concert or movie theater and there's native kids running around all over out there with ARs and 12 gauges too. really really hope that never happens that would be detrimental to the people, though i am a little suprised it hasnt happened already the anger is real feel it. fuck dude read a fucking history book not the shit they fed you in school the real ones: Why We Can't Wait by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Quote: -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII Edited by MadMuncher (01/17/22 04:53 AM)
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
Quote: The means are either just or they are not. They don't become just simply because of the desired end. Some slave revolts were just. Some were partially just and partially unjust. Some were unjust. Slavery itself is unjust. Everyone is accountable for his/her own actions. These blockades are harming probably hundreds of thousands of people, most of which have done literally nothing to deserve it. Where is the justice in that? Your position is indefensible, and the sooner you admit that, at least to yourself, the sooner you can get past knee-jerk reactions borne from emotion and start thinking about real solutions. Or, you can just pick your team and root for them regardless of what fucked up shit they might do. I know you're smarter than this, and deep inside, I know you know you're smarter than this. You're angry now, and you're letting that stunt your reasoning at the moment. I'm not above doing that myself at times. I'm not proud of it, though, and I hope that I remember this conversation the next time and perhaps use it to steer me in a different direction. Either way, what I say doesn't matter much. I'm words on a screen. I just hope that you and others can eventually see that the way to end this cycle of oppression of others is to eliminate the entire concept of "others." That doesn't happen by building barricades. That happens by building bridges.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: You need to be more specific. When you talk about harm, do you refer to physical harm or economic harm? If you refer to physical harm, I'll ask you to provide concrete examples. If you refer to economic harm, I'll reaffirm that this is a legitimate and non-violent tactic; also the backbone of the labour movement. The strike - denial of work - is economic harm. The general strike shuts down entire cities or economic regions. Most strikes have far-reaching effects beyond directly harming the bosses economically. Would you also denounce striking rail workers for harming probably hundreds of thousands of people, most of which have done literally nothing to deserve it? If yes, then you are against one of the most fundamental powers of the working class and should not be listened to in this matter. If no, then you need to understand that indigenous peoples have traditionally been excluded from the working class and the labour strike is not a tool that has always been available to them. On the other hand, native land hosts our rail and road networks (for reasons of colonialism) and as a result these are accessible to the excluded class - blockades have the double positive of both imposing economic harm and asserting indigenous sovereignty in a way that can't be ignored, by a people that have been historically ignored. The economic harm caused by indigenous blockades is not different from that caused by labour union general strikes - and if for whatever reason you decide to persist in specifically denying indigenous peoples this tactic you are displaying angry settler prejudice and should not be listened to in this matter. Quote: It's been 400 years of colonialism in so-called Canada. Justice too long delayed is justice denied. You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. [...] The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
It's legitimate because you say it is? Sorry, bro...I don't accept that. Breaking into someone's house and stealing all of their shit is only economic harm. Is that legitimate, too? What about burning down someone's home with no one in it? Legitimate?
Causing someone economic harm is causing someone harm. When people can't work or can't eat, there are serious consequences to that. Pretending otherwise just shows the hypocrisy of your position. By adopting your reasoning, I could simply find that the indigenous people are suffering no harm by having a pipeline installed across their lands. Shit, we could play the "no harm" game all day long. Again, I know your judgment is colored by emotions. Emotions are real. Emotional suffering is real harm. The indigenous people have suffered real harm, and now they are causing real harm. Call it revenge, or justice, or a means to an end, but it's still people hurting other people.
| |||||||
|
Club 27 Registered: 12/18/12 Posts: 12,340 Loc: attending Snake Church Last seen: 6 hours, 38 minutes |
| ||||||
Quote: I'm going to agree with Enlil on the subject of freedom of speech in the U.S. vs Canada. I remember thinking about this in earlier arguments over whether some people should be banned from this forum. I thought Shiva was coming from the Canadian point of view, which like some European countries, legally bans some forms of speech. I have completely mixed feelings about that. Personally I guess I don't think that much about the law, but rather my opinions vary on each different issue. As I've said before I'm much more pragmatist than principled. The U.S. doesn't really ban much except kiddie porn, and even then not the written word, just pictures. And I don't know how much I agree with that law, arresting people for obtaining pictures alone, even though I do know the correlation between people obtaining those pictures and sexual abuse of children as far as that person is concerned, besides the circumstances in which the pictures were taken, which should be illegal. I'm just saying to the best of my knowledge, Canada is definitely more restrictive of speech than the U.S. Political speech is either protected here, or it's the same as this forum where you can get away with it depending on how you phrase it. On the subject of the rail blockade I'm decidedly siding with Shiva and I think his comparing it to a labor movement strike is a good accurate observation. It would be nice if a simple peaceful protest could change things but that's seldom enough. Social movement action almost always require coercion to be effective. Yes, the rail blockade is definitely having negative economic effects on people such as farmers who are external to the original conflict. The weaker party must employ tactics that work for their structural situation. It's the same reason parties resort to terrorism, but thankfully that hasn't happened here, and I think both sides are looking for a resolution that ends in peaceful coexistence, but just as with major strikes, that might not be the result. I wrote this after a really long night of partying, and I apologize if this is a bad post. -------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
It's not a bad post, but it still is an "ends justify the means" argument. Such arguments will work with people who believe that ends can justify means. For people like myself, such an argument will never be persuasive.
It certainly won't be the first time we've disagreed, and I sincerely hope it isn't the last, but disagree we must.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Sorry Enlil but direct action gets the goods.
Proposed agreement reached between Wets’uwet’en chiefs, gov’t ministers after 3 days of talks Quote:
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Sounds like negotiation is what accomplished it.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
The only reason these negotiations finally occurred was because of the direct action campaign. Failure to recognize this requires willful ignorance on your part.
Wet'suwet'en land rights and title have been an open question since the Delgamuukw decision was handed down by the Supreme Court of Canada in 1997. Delgamuukw, which was brought by the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs and their Gitxsan neighbours, saw the court acknowledge the existence of Aboriginal title as an exclusive and ancestral right to the land, which remains unextinguished. However, the ruling did not recognize specifically what lands belong to the Wet’suwet’en. The judges found there was a defect in the pleadings and sent it back to trial, suggesting at the same time that goodwill negotiations could be a better way to resolve the questions it was being asked. Those negotiations never happened, leading to years of complaints from the Wet’suwet’en and Indigenous advocates that the province was delaying them in order to protect the resource extraction industry from the ruling’s ramifications. Over two decades waiting for the Canadian government to come to the negotiating table in good faith. Nothing. Less than a month of economically crippling blockades and here we are. Direct action gets the goods.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Whatever the reason, I hope for the best for everyone, including those people harmed by the blockades.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 4 months, 21 days |
| ||||||
Quote: I'm going to agree with Shivas as well. Quote: Doesn't it depend on the means though? If we're talking about killing thousands of people, then I would agree the means don't justify the ends. If we're talking about striking or economic harm, then it depends on the specific harm done. From your own example, I think most of us would agree that breaking into private houses and taking things would be wrong. But where that line is varies from person to person. Quote: Sounds like it was the uprising that accomplished the negotiations. -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
Quote: Of course not. If the means are just, the ends don't matter. If the means are unjust, the ends don't make them just. Is blockading a train full of jews being taken to a concentration camp just? Yes. The means don't make it just, the action itself is just. Blockading a train full of food for humans is unjust. That your purpose is to correct some unrelated harm doesn't suddenly make it just. Where is the line for you, Falcon? If you had a way to cure AIDS, and all you needed was one million dollars, would bank robbery be justified if the proceeds all went to cure aids? Taking a shortcut that harms people in order to accomplish your goals is wrong. You can claim victory all you want, but people were harmed. I'd bet dollars to donuts that these scumbags running the blockades will never lift a fucking finger to help those that they harmed.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 4 months, 21 days |
| ||||||
Quote: Who's claiming victory? I simply said I personally agree the means sometimes justify the ends. If it required one million dollars to cure AIDS, and the only way to get that million was to rob a bank, then I'd say the means were justified. If there were better ways to get the million, then maybe not. -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
Quote: Shivas Quote: Is that the situation here? Is blockading the food supply of tens of thousands of people the ONLY way to get this situation resolved?
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 4 months, 21 days |
| ||||||
Quote: I don't know. Can you propose a better way? -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
| |||||||
|
LSx Registered: 02/26/08 Posts: 12,086 |
| ||||||
|
"People were harmed"
I don't know anybody who was harmed. I live in a city where the neighboring town had a long standing rail blockade that was ultimately taken down when the OPP arrested the protesters. I'm sure it disrupted a lot of shit but besides freight (& please understand nobody went hungry) there were a lot of passenger train cancellations. Unfortunate that people that were traveling to see family, or perhaps for work, got screwed over. But, if those people needed to travel I'm sure they made other arrangements (bus, flight, car, etc.) and on top of that, VIA rail would refund, obviously, any tickets that weren't fulfilled... So I gotta ask dude, How was anybody harmed? Like, what is your argument for this? Economically harmed how? And who? Businesses? Individuals? Both?
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
1500 rail employees laid off for starters. That took about 10 seconds to confirm. I suppose I could look deeper, but that's enough to support my position.
Do you think any of these folks will be receiving a check from these scumbags who blockaded the railroads?
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
The only lesson we should be taking from this is that we, as workers, are considered disposable by these corporations. CN reported several billions in profit last year - they could have easily afforded to continue to pay their employees in good faith, despite any blockade caused slowdown. They instead chose to immediately lay off workers to protect the bottom line.
Be mad at the disposable nature of the worker under capitalism - or I guess you could get angry at the indigenous folks fighting against this same inhumane system as it affects them but that's kind of missing the point.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Yeah, dude. Anything to shield you from any responsibility for the suffering you've caused.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: This seems like some pedantic nonsense. 'Means' refers to the method and 'ends' refers to the desired result. In both your examples the means is 'rail blockade' with the contrasting ends being the specific 'prevent Jewish people from being taken to concentration camps' and the vague 'prevent food from reaching people'. Even in your own examples, the ends apparently changes whether you perceive the means as just. What if blockading the first train means that the second train is also blocked? What if the second trains food supply was intended for the guards of a concentration camp? What if the people blockading the first train was a mob of antisemites intent on brutally killing the occupants? Events don't happen in a vacuum where it's even possible to make these kind of value judgements that you appear to be demanding from - checks notes - the indigenous peoples fighting for their rights but not the colonial State that created this situation in the first place. It's easy to demand people wait for the perfect moment that won't cause undue tension or harm before pushing for justice when you aren't the one suffering from the current injustice. Please reread MLK's letter from a Birmingham jail because you are literally the white moderate preferring the negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: Yeah, I too am curious what Enlil would propose.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
The ends would be stopping jews from getting gassed/stopping a pipeline from being installed on native lands. The means would be stopping trains from delivering those jews to the gas chambers/stopping trains from delivering food to random people who have nothing to do with the gas pipeline.
Play your rationalization game all you want. You hurt people to get what you wanted even though the people you hurt had nothing to do with it. Are you going to make those people whole now or not? Are you even going to apologize to those people? Or are those people's wellbeing less important than yours?
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 4 months, 21 days |
| ||||||
Quote:
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Wow, the level of rationalization in this thread is disgusting. "I shouldn't be responsible for my actions. Retirees with money in shares of rail companies should be responsible for my actions."
I'm just so disappointed in some of the people here.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
I guess I'll just have to wait for the final tally because the blockades aren't ending until we hear back from the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs on the decisions from their bahlat. From what I understand this tentative agreement involves general land rights but doesn't yet touch on rerouting the CGL pipeline.
Although, I'm curious how much sympathy you expect me to have for laid off CN workers since the scumbags (your term for rail blockaders) were apparently harming thousands of Canadians while striking only a few short months ago. Odd how we didn't see the same vitriolic rhetoric directed at the striking workers - it's almost as if indigenous rights threaten the status quo of the settler State at a deeper level than regular labour strikes. You know what else is strange? That claim of yours, that CN had to lay off 1500 workers because of the blockades? Well isn't it odd that CN had to lay off 1600 workers only three months ago because of a weakening economy? And that "the number of people to be laid off could rise if demand from rail customers continues to decline" and I'm pretty sure the international economy is in the slumps right now. You don't think a corporation that reported several billion dollars in profits last year and has a long history of laying off workers at every slight economic downturn would take advantage of this situation to pass the buck off onto indigenous peoples and their supporters, do you? Did you just furiously search for the first piece of corporate media propaganda you could find?
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
You think a person choosing not to go to work is equivalent to you choosing to stop them? With every post, you sink lower.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Nice, so I finally get an answer to this question:
Quote: Allow me to redirect you to my preemptive response: Quote:
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Despicable.
| |||||||
|
Stranger Registered: 03/16/05 Posts: 32,557 Loc: California, US Last seen: 4 months, 21 days |
| ||||||
Quote: ***CRICKETS*** -------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
While we wait, here is a more informative article with the most recent updates:
‘It’s not over’: Tentative agreement with Wet’suwet’en Nation may be a milestone, but it doesn’t resolve pipeline fight - Neither the hereditary chiefs nor the B.C. and Canadian governments have changed their position on Coastal GasLink I can't find it anywhere else, but you can view the press conference on fb here.
| |||||||
|
LSx Registered: 02/26/08 Posts: 12,086 |
| ||||||
Quote: I don't think its fair to say it's the peaceful protesters ("scumbags") responsibility. I think if anyone is responsible here it's the Canadian government. For the laid off workers... I'm all for making CN Rail pay them, but, since you make a decent point about the retirees and their investment funds, there's always a better option... they can use the Employment insurance they pay into each and every paycheck. I guess we implemented those kinda social nets for reasons like unexpected lay offs! ![]() If the blockades lasted longer then their employment insurance payments would be coming in, maybe my argument wouldn't be as valid but still I don't think it's protesters responsibility. Also I googled it and apparently Bill Gates is the 2nd largest shareholder of CN rail. tl;dr I'm a libtard
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
They aren't protesters. They're criminals.
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
Official "Dispicable Criminals" merchandise 10% off while standoff lasts Ask about village and elder discounts Made in Canada by domestic and imported labor -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII Edited by MadMuncher (03/02/20 10:04 PM)
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
i spent my time reading that book i suggested to you earlier to the nazis while i was in there. i found it so profound i transcribed some pages that i still carry around with me one sec..
-------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII Edited by MadMuncher (03/02/20 10:18 PM)
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Lol, yeah...elevate some criminals stopping trains to folk-hero status by comparing them to people who harmed no one. While we're at it, let's throw in the 9/11 hijackers. Look at what they accomplished with their protest.
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
by your interpretation they did quite a bit of harm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Quote: poor clarence.. Quote: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ this is just scratching the surface the nazis can tell you all about the "harm" they did tell you about their rascist solutrian hypotheses too i bet one fucking google search gimme a fucking break man. heres a couple more of my favorite folk heros you should go read about i bet youd appreciate this guy and his mother if you knew their story. about as despicable as they get Edited by MadMuncher (03/03/20 12:48 AM)
| |||||||
|
Miss Ann Thrope Registered: 03/26/12 Posts: 17,138 Loc: Lashed to the py |
| ||||||
Quote: Stereotypes against First Nations are typically drunkeness and laziness people make resentful statements about how tax money gets "wasted" when they see Natives driving around in huge expensive trucks (Southern Praries at least) think the image of the Welfare Black that shows up in the US also grafts onto First Nations in Canada around the first of the month, overhear a number of complaints about Natives shopping or crowding the bank line those perceptions certainly tie back in to your statement but just clarifying the colloquial representation -- if "your" people built things up over generations, you being born into success is a demonstration of your personal success if "their" people were oppressed for generations, their being born into poverty is a demonstration of their personal failings and need to lift themselves up honestly, it is almost reminiscent of how the Hindu Caste system enforced social divisions by purporting that a high or low birth was a product of merits or sins in past lives
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
-------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII Edited by MadMuncher (03/03/20 01:09 AM)
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
@tantrika
that shit doesnt belong in this thread at all. pretty sure we got past that on the first page. i know there are other natives on here reading this but they get too pissed off to talk about it because of shit like that everybody knows plenty of stereotypes about native people and if they dont you dont need to go around putting off that pollution about us. really gotta be careful i got my first official warning from this thread can i just say fuck you disney -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII Edited by MadMuncher (03/03/20 02:03 AM)
| |||||||
|
Miss Ann Thrope Registered: 03/26/12 Posts: 17,138 Loc: Lashed to the py |
| ||||||
Quote: A question was asked, and answered it was not my statement of personal assessment as to whether the stereotypes were valid simply conveying information to a non-Canadian citizen US citizens do not have the same stereotypes of Native Americans as Canadians have of First Nations arguably, if anything US citizens have more of a misplaced pride where they hijack Native history as their own while Canada does so with formal national imagery, but the sentiment does not resonate among the people as a trans woman, frequently complain about the stereotypes among straight cis men that potentially endanger myself and people like me as well as explaining stereotypes about trans people and how those colour the lived experiences of trans people it would be disingenouous of me to ignore the social impacts of stereotypes just because of the race of the people being stereotyped you won't get a second warning if you stick to discussing things in a respectful, non-personal manner
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Setting aside your empty rhetoric, there is a difference between a boycott or strike and actively interfering with other people's rights. A boycott is when people choose NOT to use another person's goods or services. A strike is when people choose NOT to go to work. Those are both expressions of individual rights, and I am always on the side of maximizing individual rights.
The blockades, however, are not anything like that. The blockades are people choosing to impede other people in their expression of their individual rights. It's not the same thing at all. And I'm not even taking sides between the indigenous people and the government. I don't know enough about the issue to have an informed opinion. I'm simply taking a position against the specific people (scumbags) who are intentionally harming people. People in this thread seem so blinded by the overall injustice (real or perceived) against the indigenous people that they can't seem to rationally separate that injustice from the actions of these scumbags. One does not justify the other, regardless of how angry you or others may be.
| |||||||
|
Club 27 Registered: 12/18/12 Posts: 12,340 Loc: attending Snake Church Last seen: 6 hours, 38 minutes |
| ||||||
|
I'm not seeing a clear distinction between them blockading the railroad that passed through their land, and transportation workers or teachers going on an extended strike. They all do harm to others. We all make our own judgements on how much the ends justify the means.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
Quote: correct. unplug your keyboard and educate yourself i also am curious what you think a harmless protest would look like in this case and invite you to suggest an uneducated alternative instead -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
The clear distinction is that striking workers can be replaced. Teachers can be replaced. A blockade is a use of force that can only be stopped by a countervailing use of force.
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
whats the alternative, enlil?
it took 3 weeks of them fucking with the railroads to get you guys to hear about it. what other kinds of protest would have gotten you all talking? -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
Quote: nah plenty of other outcomes there i bet if they listened to the tribes and engaged them in meaningful, legitimate negotiations theyd go take their baracades down -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII
| |||||||
|
Stragler Registered: 09/06/19 Posts: 3,365 Loc: Bravos Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
| ||||||
|
Well if all teachers go on strike, hiring enough new ones is prolly about as feasible as building a new railroad to circumvent the blockade
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Me talking? What do I have to do with it? I'm not Canadian.
I can see that you're not going to ever get it. That's alright. It's very hard to bridge the gap between those who believe that ends can justify means and those who believe that they cannot. Your very question illustrates the fundamental gap between us: Quote: That same rationale can be used to rationalize any immoral behavior. "baby, I don't want to have to hit you, but how else can I make you listen?" "we don't want to kill 3,000 americans, but how else can we make them take us seriously?" And therein lies the impasse. I'll never see how an immoral act becomes moral solely because of the motivation behind it. You'll never see how an action taken to right an injustice can be an unjust act. I firmly believe you're wrong. You firmly believe I'm wrong. It is what it is.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
Quote: That is, of course, the risk that a school takes by not having thousands of backup teachers on standby. Slavery has been outlawed for a long time, and people have a right not to work a job they don't want to work. I know of no right that people have to blockade a rail line. Of course, as noted above, I'm not Canadian....is such a right codified in Canada?
| |||||||
|
Stragler Registered: 09/06/19 Posts: 3,365 Loc: Bravos Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
| ||||||
|
“Ends vs means” does seem like a stance that applies here...at first.
But consider the fact that, before the forceful invasion and genocide that gave birth to Canada/US, there were already laws here, primitive or not. So are the Natives breaking laws by blockading, or is the entire railroad illegal from their point of view? Most importantly, what makes our (newer) laws supersede the Native’s laws? Their argument is solid - they were here first - but what’s ours?
| |||||||
|
Miss Ann Thrope Registered: 03/26/12 Posts: 17,138 Loc: Lashed to the py |
| ||||||
Quote: that we are better at it it is the same sentiment that colours my earlier statements with regards to generational success even now, we claim to respect First Nations traditions as valid; but any who do not adhere and integrate into the Canadian system are considered to be failures or wastes of resources when this is similiar to the: ![]() this is where my personal investment in the issues with European bans on seal products diminishing the capacity for Inuit to live by their traditional values comes in to play Inuit have hunted seal for generation, they use it for food and clothing in order to integrate into the Western system, they need avenues to sell their product but a ban on industrial-sourced seal products has resulted in a completely collapsed market for Inuit to try and sell to and since it's ice, snow, seals, oil and minerals they are increasingly under pressure from mining and oil interests to be provided with a cushy income by selling out their traditional lands and this thread has nothing to do with Greta Thunberg but am fairly certain while she supports the rail protests, she would not put pressure on her own European governments to repeal the seal ban
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
That's a different discussion, and I'm more than happy to engage that one, too...but that is absolutely a diversion from, as opposed to a counterargument to, the current discussion.
As to that discussion, first we have to determine who is who. Is there anyone alive today who lost land to colonization? I don't know the answer to that because I'm not up on Canadian history, but if there isn't, your entire argument becomes moot. If you want to argue that the blockades are a lawful expression of someone's property rights, then you're going to have to establish that some individual has a claim to that property...not just that someone's ancestors did. I grew up in a house. Through no fault of my own, that house is no longer in the family. I have no right to now enter that house. What you're suggesting, however, is even further removed. My grandfather, who was dead before I was born, lived in a house in Evansville, Indiana. Do I have a claim to that property? And as to your final question, newer laws always supercede older laws. If they didn't, we'd still have slavery. What would ever be the point of passing a law if it couldn't change an older law?
| |||||||
|
Stragler Registered: 09/06/19 Posts: 3,365 Loc: Bravos Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
| ||||||
Quote: Well you brought up the right of teachers not to go to work. Anyway, I’m starting to think I’m shit at forums, because my main point didn’t get across at all. Your entire premise is based on property laws that the Natives disagreed with. If they had their way, your family home would be back in your possession once the person who bought it died (if I understand correctly). So my point was that, from the perspective of the Natives - who were building a unique civilization here for thousands of years - the railroad is standing on top of their property. They’re just chillin in their backyards, and no one has the authority to tell them to leave their homes. As for new vs old laws - it’s not like I’m comparing the constitution of different time periods. There are laws that existed until we illegally removed them from history, via mass murder. It’s hard to justify why they have to follow our laws after that
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
We? I didn't remove anyone from history or mass murder anyone. So, you and who else?
Or are you just saying that one group conquered another group's land? The difference here is crucial, of course, because I am not a group. I am a person. I am accountable for my actions. I hold you accountable for yours. I hold these people blockading rail lines accountable for theirs. I couldn't care less what groups they belong to. So, my argument is that these people are harming other people by doing something they have no right to do. They justify harming these people because of harm that has been done to completely different people by yet another set of completely different people. All of this is rationalized because of the groups people have identified themselves and others as belonging to. Sure, it's easier to say it's the good guys vs the bad guys, but the people on trains trying to get home are only the bad guys because of their ancestry. How is that different than what the indigenous people are accusing Canada's government of doing? This is terrorism, plain and simple. Random people are literally being harmed solely to effect a political change. There's no nexus between these victims and any social wrong...they just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. The terrorists have no legal justification for what they're doing, and they have no moral justification for it. The only rationalization offered in this thread is, "what else could they do?" Rosa Parks was brought up in this thread. Now, the history of her actions is a bit skewed because it was all set up for her to be arrested on that day, but what she did was brave nonetheless. She used her individual right of autonomy to right a wrong at great risk to herself. She could have lost that case. She could have ended up in jail with a permanent criminal record. That didn't happen, and change occurred. The point, however, is that she put HERSELF on the line for something she believed in. In contrast, these terrorists are holding the nation hostage. They are risking themselves, sure, but they're also tossing in a bunch of random, unwitting people into the mix to make the sacrifice greater. There's nothing honorable or noble about that. That's using people as tools to get what you want. That's wrong under any moral analysis. As I said before, I don't believe we're ever going break this impasse. Either you believe that the ends justify the means or you do not.
| |||||||
|
Club 27 Registered: 12/18/12 Posts: 12,340 Loc: attending Snake Church Last seen: 6 hours, 38 minutes |
| ||||||
|
The protections given to striking workers by the National Labor Relations Act does make exceptions for transportation workers, which is how Reagan was able to replace the air traffic controllers. But when you combine the legal framework with the strength of certain unions, it is just about impossible to replace teachers in a Northern city, and it has nothing to do with the supply of capable replacements.
It's really a situational thing. Catepillar successfully put down a strike in downstate Illinois in 95, replaced the workers and remained profitable while doing so. I doubt they could have done that in Chicago. -------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: So maybe stop sharing your uninformed opinions then? Quote: I mean just look at this ignorant opinion. You're 100% certain that these blockades are harming people but uncertain if the injustices experienced by indigenous are "real or perceived". I don't know how old you are, but I hope you live another 50 years so that you can see just how wrong you are right now. Quote: The right to evict trespassers on their land is codified in the traditional laws of our First Nations, and the Canadian courts have accepted that indigenous law counts in Canadian courts. So yes, these blockades are completely within Canadian law. Our government just has a tendency of ignoring its own laws regarding indigenous land title. Quote: Yes because these blockades are just like domestic abuse or mass murder. :eyeroll: You are wrong, and no one is listening to your uneducated opinions. Perhaps you can better explain what justifies an action, since you appear to be the expert on determining if an act is just or injust. Also, still waiting for you to offer an alternative solution other than "wait patiently for the oppression to stop".... Edit: I think if you were making an attempt to provide constructive criticism and alternative solutions to the situation indigenous peoples in Canada currently face, rather than stubbornly persisting in rejecting the current actions without being able to suggest anything better, you might be taken more seriously here. Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/03/20 12:58 PM)
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
You've been spewing uninformed opinions here for years, dude. I'm sure that I am entitled to do the same.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
OK Boomer
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Keep the personal attacks out of this forum please.
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
youre a hypocrite.
47,000 examples of why not to narcissism i havnt read them all but enough to wonder if anyones told you that before. Quote: "retard logic." sadism is a real thing too. the mass murders you talk of only seem to happen when you have a majority population of complacent uneducated imbeciles like weve seen here i need to get the fuck out of here i thought we were getting somewhere but then i realized how much better you are than everyone else oh im not a mod i cant say shit like that whoops.. -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
You mad, bro? You seem out of rational debate points and now you, too, are going to personal attacks.
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
dude i could talk about this shit all day everyday. you know nothing, which is partly your schools and parents failing you, partly circumstantial, but mostly your own fault for not wanting to learn.
i cant debate with uneducated egotistical assholes your words are twisted, you dodged every question, you squirm around derailing everything and changing topics -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Because your questions are all irrelevant to my point, which you obviously missed. I am not arguing that the indigenous people don't have a legitimate gripe. I'm not taking sides between them and the government. The reason for that is that I don't have enough information to have an informed opinion. That's why I haven't stated any opinion about that.
My point...and my only point...is that the SPECIFIC PEOPLE who are blockading the rail lines are in the wrong. What they are doing is morally indefensible. It doesn't matter what bad things have happened to them. It doesn't matter what they're trying to change. None of that has any bearing whatsoever on the moral quality of the blockades. It's that simple. That's why I'm not going to answer your nonsensical question about "what else could they do?" It has absolutely no relevance to my point. Further, it's a question I can't answer without knowing: 1. What problem are they trying to solve? 2. What have they tried so far to solve it? The answers to those questions will invariably lead to other questions. Eventually, I'll have an answer, even if that answer is, "nothing...this is one of those situations where they don't get what they want." But none of that matters here, because my point has NOTHING to do with any of that. Simply put IT DOESN'T MATTER what problem they're trying to address or what they've tried, because none of it will justify victimizing thousands of random people who have done nothing to deserve their victimization.
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
thank you for that post very good👍
youd have found a lot of answers if you had read through any of those links shiva shared in the first page, then we could have had a proper debate, i didnt realize you never read them. makes sense now seeing how much space you filled with your ignorance this is some high quality internet right here. its like everything you should have learned in history class by the 6th grade hidden between your arrogant posts. -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII Edited by MadMuncher (03/03/20 08:32 PM)
| |||||||
|
Semper Fidelis Registered: 01/11/05 Posts: 7,459 Loc: Harmless (Mostly) Last seen: 59 minutes, 15 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Bad form.
You can disagree with him but why bring up alcoholism? Another ad hominem. -------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” Edited by SirTripAlot (03/03/20 08:26 PM)
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
I don't drink. You've been warned about the personal attacks. Next time, it will be a ban.
The reason I haven't looked into it is that it isn't the topic of this thread. The thread is called "Shutdown Canada: The Wet'suwet'en Standoff." It's about the shutdown...not the underlying dispute. I have more than enough information to determine that many people have been harmed by the blockades, and that those people are simply innocent victims in this whole thing. Unless you can demonstrate a nexus between the actions being taken and the actual dispute, you're just making an emotional plea for sympathy for the poor victims who have no other option than to fuck random people up.
| |||||||
|
destroy weyerhauser Registered: 10/27/12 Posts: 8,404 Loc: not in compliance |
| ||||||
|
i edited it, my bad. i dont drink either. good for us. it feels a lot different when it's your own family being fucked up for hundreds of years and you see it happening to all other tribes and you cant do anything and then you have to try to explain..
im going to go for a walk i cant talk about this anymore right now ill be back. -------------------- amanita phalloides prints for trade $BanEnlil $IgnoreEnlil Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy. 1234Go said: I bet you guys PM about me... Ban Lotto Wins: IIIII
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: So you just glanced at the title and didn't bother to read the OP where I state "Ok so first I want to give some context." and proceed to answer the two questions you pose here plus much much more. 1. What problem are they trying to solve? 2. What have they tried so far to solve it? Find your answers here. Also I'm going to point out all the questions I've posed that you've neglected to answer: 1. What qualifies an action as just or not. You are apparently knowledgeable enough to confidently make these pronouncements so help us learn. 2. Now that, I assume, you've read the OP and have educated yourself on the history and context that brought us to this standoff, can you provide any suggestions for effective alternatives to these blockades? 3. You asked if the right to blockade was codified in Canadian law - I responded that Canadian courts recognize that Indigenous laws form part of Canada's legal system, including as a basis for Aboriginal title. The "rule of law" therefore includes both Canadian and Indigenous law - and Indigenous law includes the right to prevent trespass on their land. Perhaps you will choose to comment on this now? Your continual refusal to answer these direct questions makes it seem like you don't have any logical or moral foundation for your judgements regarding these blockades being an injust act, and that you are trying to defend an emotional value judgement on your part. So please, read the OP - educate yourself on the issue - and then answer these three questions. Because I don't believe you can without revealing the flaws in your own argument.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
All along the demands of the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs have been: 1. RCMP out, 2. CGL stop work, 3. When those two cease, sit down and talk with government officials about land rights.
The pressure has been immense. Everyone wants a solution. As a show of good faith, the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs sat down to talk with government officials, and what happened? CGL and RCMP are back on their lands again today. These two crucial points were not resolved. Yet I see government congratulating itself, and media headlines proclaiming a "proposed agreement on the pipeline" achieved even though it wasn't an agreement about the pipeline. The press has mislead the public to think that the issue with CGL was resolved. When the public sees people still protesting because the deal wasn't about the pipeline, it once again feeds into the FALSE narrative that the chiefs move the goal posts and don't know what they want. This all feeds into the stereotypes of Indigenous people wanting "more" or that Indigenous people are "unreasonable". The RCMP and Trudeau used the press in the same way when the RCMP first came out with a statement that they would leave Wet'suwet'en land. The impression was given to the press, by the RCMP, that the RCMP was leaving; meeting a key demand of the hereditary chiefs and the solidarity actions across the country. So the public thought "ok protests will stop now". Except the RCMP didn't leave. So the protests did not stop. And we heard again "indigenous people are unreasonable", instead of questioning why the RCMP was enforcing the ability of CGL to continue its work despite CGL failing its environmental assessment and being given a 30 day work stop order. Then Marc Miller goes to Tyendinaga. Talks were continuing for days privately. Even as Trudeau stood up at a press conference to say "talks had broken down" "we were more than reasonable" "time has run out" "Canadians are hurting" dog whistling "indigenous people are unreasonable". "Canadians are hurting" Trudeau said. Even when his minister of Transportation had brokered a deal between CN and CP that had goods flowing for weeks. And as he said it, he knew, he was tapping into pre-existing racist sentiments among Canadians. He knew and he didn't care. Why? For the same reason Bennett and Fraser couldn't come to an agreement with the Chiefs on CGL. Because the bottom line is, no matter what Canadian laws are broken by corporations or Canada, the Constitution comes second to pipelines and the corporate agenda. Somehow this is all indigenous peoples fault, that Canada disregards its own laws and international law. While dog whistling the "rule of law" to Canadians. This is what the rule of law means to indigenous people living in so-called Canada.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
So, to answer your questions:
1. There have been many people to analyze this issue. There are probably as many answers as there are people on the planet. The consensus view, however, is that a moral or just action is one that, if universally applied, would maximize the good and minimize the bad. What does this mean? Well, it means that if the action is one that everyone took, would the world be a better place or a worse place for humans? If better, the action is moral/just. If worse, the action is immoral/unjust. 2. It appears that the tribes have gone through the legal process and lost. At this point, they have no legal right to stop anything. Given that, the best option is to negotiate with the pipeline proponents in an attempt to reach a win-win option. This will likely mean having to give up something in exchange for getting something. The details of that negotiation would have to be based on the individual parties and what they have of value and what they want of value. Obviously, no one here in this thread have that information, but it may very well be that no negotiation would work. 3. From my research, it appears that the rail companies have a right-of-way for the entire length of their track. This right-of-way not only gives the railroads access and use of that area, but the Railway Safety Act of 1989 makes it a trespass for others to enter that area without lawful cause. Given this, the act of blockading the rail lines is clearly unlawful, whether or not those lines cross through native territories. All of this leads us to exactly the same place we were. The indigenous people are breaking the law and harming thousands of random innocents. That is immoral. They are literally terrorists at this point.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: So what exactly qualifies as an action in your framework? For example, harming another human is an action that would be considered an unjust act - but certain ends justify this act; consensual bdsm and proportional self-defence being two examples. Except you have made the argument that the ends never justify the means, so you must be phrasing things differently. My assumption is that, instead of considering pleasure and protection as justifying ends for the act of harming another human, you consider assault, bdsm, and self-defence to be three completely different acts whose justification is an intrinsic value. Continuing with this, let's now apply it to blockades. Of course, if everyone was out blockading things, the world would likely be a worse place - it is not something that should be universally applied. Many people (40% of Canadian) would say that resisting 500 years of ongoing colonial violence and opposing the violence directed at the Wet'suwet'en people justifies the current blockades, but that's not how you phrase things. If I reapply my assumption from the former paragraph, I conclude that you wouldn't consider 'asserting Indigenous rights' as justifying ends for the act of blockading, you instead consider 'blockading to assert Indigenous rights' to be the intrinsically unjust act. Yet, earlier you made a post that used 'blockading to prevent the transport of Jews to concentration camps' as an example of a justified act. I wonder if you could better explain why you consider this act justified but not the former? There is lots of documentation (National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, The Ipperwash Inquiry Report) to show that Indigenous people are being actively harmed by the policies of removing Indigenous people from their land in order to allow industrial development. Genocide is not hyperbole but a term actively used in some of these reports. So can you explain what differentiates blockades intended to prevent Jewish genocide from blockades intended to prevent Indigenous genocide in your framework? The only difference that jumps out at me is that you aren't a German citizen living in Nazi Germany, but you are a citizen of a colonial State - and maybe its easier to be critical of situations that don't require some level of self-implication. If any of my assumptions are incorrect, please correct them. Quote: Can you be clearer on what you mean by "lost"? Because Delgamuukw v British Columbia confirmed the validity of oral history as evidence. Further, the court recognized Wet’suwet’en hereditary governance and that Indigenous nations’ interests in their land predate the Crown and that these interests exist today - that they still have these land interests within Canadian law. But the bad side of this is that the court decided that at earlier stages in the case, some technical matters had gone awry. The court recognized that the Wet’suwet’en and Gitxsan had title - but said that due to technical errors they would have to go back to court in order to figure out where that title applied. The judge also stated that direct negotiations may be a better method of resolution instead of a new trial. This had been a 13 year long multi-million dollar expense, and the tribes did not have the resources to repeat this again. Instead of negotiating land title, the BC government chose to instead act as if it did not exist. Then, in 2004, the Haida Nation went to court and Haida Nation v British Columbia recognized that even if an Indigenous nation has not established title or rights in a Canadian court, their title and rights exist. The court said that even in that kind of case you need to have consultation taking place because at some point these rights are going to be established and then you will have to have paid attention to them somehow. So by "lost" do you refer to the technicality that deferred the legal victory of Indigenous land title? Or by "lost" do you refer to CGLs injunction - as if an injunction granted to a corporation should supersede Indigenous land title? Even with all this considered, the Hereditary Chiefs did attempt to negotiate with CGL - but CGL was in a position to unilaterally reject any alternative proposal and that's what happened. In the end negotiations amounted to 'you either get money or an injunction, but either way this pipeline is getting built' - which is closer to coercion. At this point your assumption is correct - negotiation did not work - so in response the hereditary chiefs, in accordance with Wet'suwet'en law, evicted both CGL and the RCMP from their territory - which led to the militarized police raid - which led to he blockades. So you're caught up now - what should the Wet'suwet'en have done? Legal avenues exhausted and the Canadian State isn't listening to their own legal rulings that support Indigenous land title anyways - negotiations impossible when the alternative side has all the power of the police State behind them - facing the continued genocide of their people by the Canadian State... Should they just accept this "loss" as you term it? Or should they continue to fight against this injustice? If you think they should continue to fight - what alternatives to the blockades can you suggest? Quote: Yes, that is what Canadian law says - but remember that Canadian courts recognize that Indigenous laws form part of Canada's legal system too. Using the blockade at Tyendinaga as an example, this section of railway lies on stolen land - the Culbertson Tract Land Claim - land stolen from the Mohawk Nation by Canada in contravention of Treaty 3 1/2. The Mohawks of Tyendinaga have their own law that allows them to prevent trespass on their land. What right does Canada have to impose its own laws on stolen land? Even our own courts acknowledge Indigenous land title - in this case we have a treaty that has been openly violated - but the colonialism inherent to the Canadian State means that 'rule of law' is casually ignored where it supports Indigenous rights and title. Quote: Ah yes, generous application of the label 'terrorism' - always the refuge of the neutral and dispassionate observer. Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/04/20 06:15 PM)
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
Quote: It's a fair question. After all, any act can be broken into smaller acts. Shooting someone in the head could be broken down into shooting someone. Shooting someone can be broken down into aiming a gun at someone and pulling the trigger. Is pulling a trigger, in itself morally wrong? Of course not. I absolutely understand your issue here, and I'll try to clarify as much as possible. Ultimately, we're not really talking about "acts" as much as we're talking about "means," right? That's where we're trying to get to, at least, for purposes of the analysis. So, what determines the act or acts that makes up the "means?" Earlier in this thread, I believe it was you who argued it was semantics insofar as I used the example of stopping a train full of jews from reaching the concentration camp. At that time, I totally understood your point, and I probably would have had this discussion then had we not gone so far off track (no pun intended) shortly thereafter. When we're looking at "means" as used in my postulate "the ends never justify the means," we're talking about an action or group of actions that, taken together, accomplish at least one undesirable result. The reason at least one result must be undesirable, at least from a moral standpoint, is that the postulate is meaningless if the "means" only has positive results, since such a means would not need any justification as it is wholly just in itself. Hopefully, I haven't skipped a lot of logical steps here. I'm covering a lot of ground very quickly. So, with that working definition, the act, or means, we're talking about in this thread would be the blockading of passenger and freight trains. The reason I say this is because the act of being near the tracks is victimless, as far as I can see. The act of stopping a train, in and of itself, doesn't necessarily have a victim. It's when we get to the specific act of stopping passenger and freight trains that people start to get harmed. I hope you're with me so far. Quote: For a long time in the U.S., the majority of people knew that slavery was a moral wrong, but still believed that the economic benefits of slavery justified its continued existence. Consensus does not determine the morality of an undertaking. As far as your last sentence, no...I consider the unjust act to be blockading passenger and freight trains. And I believe that the goal (or ends) of asserting indigenous rights does not suddenly make that act just. Quote: Well, let's analyze this. If the act is blockading the transport of jews to a death camp, can we universalize that? Clearly, we can. The world would undoubtedly be a better place if everyone blockaded the transport of jews to death camps. That act needs absolutely no justification, and even if people did that act for the worst of reasons, that act would still be moral/just. Quote: Okay, here we get to the real core of the issue. There is a crystal clear difference. Blockading a train from transporting jews to a death camp is directly combatting the genocide. Blockading a train full of people who just happen to be traveling that day does nothing to directly combat genocide. Surely you see this. Instead, this latter blockade punishes society for society's actions. It makes society pay a price for what society has done. That's ultimately the intention of the act. But, in the end, you're punishing random people for the actions of specific people....people that, most likely, aren't even on those trains. There's nothing just in that. Let's change the hypothetical a bit. Killing a human being is not necessarily morally wrong...you've touched on this earlier. Is killing someone in self-defense wrong? Sometimes, no. Now, if there was a particular person trampling on the indigenous people's rights, would it be okay to kill that person? Maybe... Would shooting Hitler in the back of the head be morally wrong? Maybe not. These issues depend on many factors, and we can absolutely have a difference of opinion on them...and I wouldn't be talking in black and white absolutes with any of these situations because they very much depend on many things that we may never know... But when we go back to these blockades, which are undoubtedly victimizing the innocent in order to somehow right an unrelated wrong, there's no way to get to moral justification. I'll answer the rest in another post...I'm running out of room.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
Quote: Yes, I mean the injunction. And yes, an injunction applies regardless of the title. That is the very reason for an injunction. An injunction forces or prohibits conduct that a person or entity would normally have no obligation to do or refrain from doing. Title, without an injunction, would give the titleholder the power to stop the construction. The injunction changes that. Quote: Only political pressure is likely to change things at this point. This is, ultimately, what they are doing with these blockades. If it is true that 40% of the population support the blockades, that is a huge political force that could be wielded to get what they want. Yes, it might be harder to do it without victimizing people, but that 40% could be reached through many different avenues including media, grassroots efforts, etc. Would it take longer? Probably. Would it cost some money? Probably. Would it be harder? ABSOLUTELY! But sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same. Quote:Quote: You're going to need more than some general claim about the applicability of native law in contravention of federal law. While you may be right, I doubt it. Unless you can somehow prove that territorial jurisdiction of the natives supercedes the statutory right-of-way held by the rail companies, you're just making some philosophical argument. Expansion by conquest is still expansion, whether or not it's fair or right. Quote:Quote: If you have a less offensive word to describe people who victimize random people for the purpose of achieving a political goal, I'll be glad to use it.
| |||||||
|
See er Registered: 04/02/14 Posts: 2,845 Loc: Pickin yer patch |
| ||||||
|
I don’t see any food on those trains. The terrorists put up gates, blocked travel, killed families, and displaced a people from their land. The people are just standing on earth. No gates no blood shed.
Those “terrorists” should cover the tracks in dirt and plant trees. The trees will be the gates to keep the invaders from further destruction of a garden needed for the future. If we were not a domesticated animal then we could identify our food. Food does not come from trains. It comes from the earth. As we all have come and soon shall return.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Sounds like hippie bullshit to me. Besides, if that's true, then what does it matter where they put the pipeline? We'll all be in the earth soon enough.
| |||||||
|
See er Registered: 04/02/14 Posts: 2,845 Loc: Pickin yer patch |
| ||||||
Quote: Oh you’ll be there soon enough. This has already happened. All you are experiencing is a memory.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Everything we experience is a memory. By the time we experience it, it's already the past.
As cool as the philosophical musings are, you should try to stay on topic.
| |||||||
|
Semper Fidelis Registered: 01/11/05 Posts: 7,459 Loc: Harmless (Mostly) Last seen: 59 minutes, 15 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Didn't Zappa one time say, (paraphrased) "you can come over to my house and we will play hide the action figure." Seriously, lol
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
| |||||||
|
See er Registered: 04/02/14 Posts: 2,845 Loc: Pickin yer patch |
| ||||||
Quote: How is this not on topic? If what has been experienced is a memory of a people how does a perceived “time” change any of the facts? We could start by looking at the area. What local are they in? I don’t know. But we could at least look at the nearest Catholic Church in the area. Get ground penetrating equipment and dig up the bones the “holy” grounds are concealing and identify the remains of the people’s. Maybe the locals are still around and remember of a time their grandfathers had a freedom and attempted to vote. Did their vote count? Does it now? Does your vote count Enlil? If
| |||||||
|
Semper Fidelis Registered: 01/11/05 Posts: 7,459 Loc: Harmless (Mostly) Last seen: 59 minutes, 15 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Here it is:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums Thats funny as hell. I remember himt too!. He set up secret santa! -------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” Edited by SirTripAlot (03/04/20 09:30 PM)
| |||||||
|
See er Registered: 04/02/14 Posts: 2,845 Loc: Pickin yer patch |
| ||||||
Quote: Quote:
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Wtf made you think of that?
| |||||||
|
Semper Fidelis Registered: 01/11/05 Posts: 7,459 Loc: Harmless (Mostly) Last seen: 59 minutes, 15 seconds |
| ||||||
|
...without saying to much, I have my moments. But looking back,no, that didnt fit there. Lol
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: I follow your reasoning up to this point, but I think you begin to create an impossible standard here. Are you suggesting that an act must be free of undesirable results in order to be just? Because I don't believe any act could make that claim. Take for example homicide in self-defence - even if this act is completely justified as a proportional response to a physical threat, it has the undesirable result of punishing the family, especially any dependents, of the person killed through no fault of their own. Would you conclude that this undesirable result makes such an act unjust; why or why not? Quote: Why do you phrase this situation as "blockading passenger and freight trains" but when referring to your concentration camp example you allow it the benefit of context, "blockading the transport of jews to a death camp"? This seems like an unfair double standard. Without context, blockading the transport of Jews to a death camp just becomes "blockading passenger and freight trains". Quote: So an antisemitic group that blockades the transport of Jews to a death camp so that they can personally torture and kill the occupants would be justified in this act? That doesn't seem like a reasonable system of morality. Secondly, you appear to be giving this example the benefit of existing in isolation, while making a significant effort to connect the indigenous-led blockades to every peripheral effect that you can. Do you think that blockading the transport of Jews by train to concentration camps wouldn't have a wider effect on the transportation of general supplies by that same railway? Many of the blockades that occurred during WW2 were hard blockades - meaning bridges were destroyed and the railways were physically and permanently disrupted. Undoubtedly this would have had harmful effects to the German civilian population - many who were not directly involved in any violence towards Jewish people. The blockades currently happening in Canada are soft blockades - no permanent damage have been done to hold them - and it's also important to acknowledge that while these blockades have definitely limited the amount of freight that can been shipped across Canada, they have not completely shut down our transport network - essential supplies are still moving. The effect is one of significant economic loss, but no Canadians are starving or freezing to death because of these blockades. Quote: I think if you truly understood the nature of colonialism and how forcing indigenous people off of their land has always been at the root of this genocide, you would understand that asserting indigenous title and land rights is the way to directly combat this genocide. One of the most powerful ways that the Indigenous people of so-called Canada can assert this title is through requiring consent before access to their land - and that's what these blockades are. If you are honestly interested in understanding this issue better I can suggest a few titles: 500 Years of Indigenous Resistance; Seven Fallen Feathers; The Inconvenient Indian; Unsettling Canada; The Reconciliation Manifesto. If you prefer a more facts-based approach, I recommend any of the government reports on treatment of Indigenous people in Canada that I included in my previous post. Quote: There aren't any death camps to shut down in Canada (although judging by the mass graves of children that we find, our residential schools probably fit that bill) - there is stolen land (and the cultures and traditions connected to the land) to reclaim. And just like shutting down the fascist State of Nazi Germany undoubtedly harmed a lot of people who were guilty of nothing more than passively benefiting from the suffering and injustice experienced by the Jews and every other undesirable, so to can we expect that shutting down the colonial State of Canada will inevitably harm a lot of people who are guilty of nothing more than passively benefiting from the suffering and injustice experienced by Indigenous peoples. That doesn't make these actions immoral. A more just society will likely always be harmful to those who benefit from the injustice, but only in the temporary - long-term everyone benefits from a more just society. Quote: I don't see how you can go from considering murder to be a morally ambiguous act without greater context, and even then allow for a difference of opinion - and in the next paragraph conclude that these blockades are unjustified with apparent certainty. Surely you see the double standard that you are constantly applying to these indigenous-led blockades in order to reach your judgement?
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
Quote: Legality doesn't dictate morality. A court injunction that allows the RCMP to forcibly remove indigenous peoples from their land is unambiguously an immoral act. Its a violation of basic human rights - including article 10 of the UNDRIP ("Indigenous peoples shall not be forcibly removed from their lands or territories."). The Wet’suwet’en have not lost in the courts - the Canadian State merely chooses to ignore any judgment in favour of indigenous rights and title. So if your defence here is that a court injunction supersedes human rights, your defence is that of "rule of law" and is not very different from the defence of "just following orders". Quote: All of those things you suggest have been happening for decades. Do you still think these blockades were the first thing that's been tried? Indigenous people know what happens when they directly confront the State - the full violence of the police and military is brought down on them. We didn't choose to escalate. This situation was pushed into crisis mode when the BC government sent the RCMP onto Wet'suwet'en land to provide security for CGL construction activities. At this point, the Wet'suwet'en don't have any more time to wait - irreparable harm is happening every day CGL is able to continue their activities on Wet'suwet'en territory. The reason that the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs were able to gain the support of 40% of Canadians - from coast to coast - is because of the decades of grassroot organizing, development of independent media networks, and consistent fundraising efforts. But how much longer can you wait when the land you make your home on - that forms the basis of your community and culture - is being destroyed? That's why this campaign progressed to a more militant stage - the Canadian government is proving itself unwilling to address this issue and forcing a confrontation. The fact you can so confidently share your opinion on a situation that you clearly have only the most shallow understanding of is... unsurprising but still disappointing. Quote: Under Canadian law, the Crown had to have a signed treaty that dictated the terms of land transfer before the State could legally own Indigenous land. Land taken without treaty is considered stolen land by Canadian law. This issue has been allowed to fester for decades because Canada stands to lose out on most of the benefits of colonialism in the process, but just because our government chooses to ignore it (leading to situations like the one we currently find ourself in with the Wet'suwet'en) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The reason I only provided a specific land claim here is because I've already provided multiple links that discuss the complex nature of Indigenous land title in Canada. I thought you had been making an effort to inform yourself of some background context before continuing to share your opinion. Take a read of the United Nations Declaration of the Rights Indigenous Peoples to understand that Indigenous land title most definitely supersedes the rights-of-way held by a rail company. And yes, I'm aware it's a non-binding framework and Canada isn't even a signatory - but the BC government adopted it into provincial legislation last November, if you want a clear example of how little the Canadian government cares about rule of law when it stands to benefit indigenous land title at the expense of resource extraction. To be honest, I'm growing uncomfortable with discussing the real injustice Indigenous peoples face in this abstract way. It would be like discussing the philosophical merits of ghetto uprisings while people are outside fighting and suffering. I imagine it may be easier for you, because judging by what strikes me as your almost complete ignorance of the issue this isn't something that personally effects you. Well it effects me personally - and only vicariously through seeing how it effects my Indigenous friends and family. It's not an abstract philosophical dilemma - it's real. I feel I've left all the necessary information and sources if you truly want to educate yourself - but if you're just bored and looking for a place to argue this isn't it. I'll make another thread where we can approach the issue of justice and morality through a fictional situation - because the suffering of real humans shouldn't be your diversion.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
Quote: An act can be just and still have an undesirable effect. I never meant to suggest otherwise. What I was saying was that for purposes of the phrase, "the ends never justify the means," we need not consider any act that does not have undesirable effects since those acts are already just without any need for justification. Any act without undesirable effects is just. Not every just act is one without undesirable effects, however. Quote: Because one is more specific than the other. The specific act of blockading the transport of Jews to a death camp certainly is included in the more general act of blockading passenger and freight trains. Similarly, killing in self-defense is a specific act that is also within the more general act of killing human beings. We cannot say that killing human beings is inherently just. We cannot say that blockading passenger and freight trains is inherently just. Why? Because these acts, if universalized, would make the world a much worse place for humans. Specific subsets of these general categories, however, can be just. This is why I'm using the specific subset of transporting jews to death camps. Quote: The blockading isn't the immoral part of that hypothetical, is it? We can certainly separate the moral act of stopping someone from killing jews from the immoral act of killing those same jews oneself. Quote: Of course it would. This is a perfect example of a just/moral act that does still have some undesirable consequences. Those undesirable consequences do not make the act any less moral/just. Let's expand your hypothetical "harm" way beyond this...What if the blockading resulted in the death of the people driving the train? The act would still be just/moral. Why? Because we can universalize the act of killing people directly involved in murder to prevent that murder. Quote: The fact that the harm to people is less than it could be does not change the analysis enough to universalize it, though. We're still talking about harming the innocent. Quote: I never defended "shutting down the fascist State of Nazi Germany." I don't see that as a moral endeavor at all, and if you want to equate the blockades to that, feel free. Quote: I don't see murder as a morally ambiguous act at all. I see killing someone a morally ambiguous act, however. Quote: No. In fact, I think I see the double standard that you're applying.
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
Quote: It looks like we agree here. Legal doesn't mean moral. I've never said otherwise. Quote: Then this might just be one time that they have to accept it and move on. Hurting people just to get what you want is about as immoral as it gets. Quote: I've offered no opinion about the plight of the natives. I've only offered an opinion about the morality of the actions of specific people who have chosen to harm people with these blockades. Disappointing you, as terribly hurt as I am by it, isn't relevant. I'm sorry that your friends are engaged in morally indefensible conduct. That's not my doing, but I know what it's like to be in a position of caring about someone and knowing that the person is in the wrong. You're being loyal in defending them, and I admire that. Unfortunately, they're on the wrong side of this issue, and taking the immoral path doesn't lead to long-term good for them. Even if they have a victory here, it will be a victory founded on terrorism.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Returning to practical matters, some tips on security culture:
Tip 1: Believe what you're doing is powerful & important Tip 2: Don't talk about it
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Tip 3: Don't plan actions over Facebook
| |||||||
|
OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,499 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
| ||||||
|
Tip 4: Try not to think about the suffering your actions may cause.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
PRESS RELEASE: Wet’suwet’en, BCCLA, and UBCIC Release Explosive Letter Revealing BC Solicitor General Authorizing RCMP Deployment, Contradicting Public Statements
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE VANCOUVER/ (Xʷməθkʷəy̓əm (Musqueam), Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish) and səl̓ilwətaʔɬ/sel̓ílwitulh (Tsleil-Waututh) territories, March 6, 2020 – Wet’suwet’en Hereditary Chiefs, BC Civil Liberties Association and Union of BC Indian Chiefs are releasing a letter dated January 27, 2020 from BC Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General Mike Farnworth to RCMP Deputy Commissioner Jennifer Strachan. In the letter, Farnworth declared a “provincial emergency” under the Provincial Police Service Agreement and explicitly authorized the “internal redeployment of resources within the Provincial Police Service.” Article 9 of the Provincial Police Service Agreement stipulates that, if in the opinion of the Provincial Minister an Emergency in an area of provincial responsibility exists, then the Provincial Police Service will be redeployed at the written request of the Provincial Minister and the Province will pay the costs of the redeployment. This explosive revelation of the BC Solicitor General authorizing additional RCMP resources and redeployment comes on the heels of repeated statements by the provincial government that they lacked jurisdiction or authority over RCMP actions in Wet’suwet’en territories. On January 20, Premier John Horgan was reported as saying “Our government has no authority to vary that injunction, nor to direct the RCMP in the fulfillment of its responsibilities.” On February 10, Horgan again stated, “Governments do not direct the courts, nor do we direct the RCMP.” According to Wet’suwet’en Hereditary Chief Na’Moks, “The province bears responsibility for the heavy RCMP deployment and for the policing of our people on our own territories. In many of our discussions, the province was passing the buck for RCMP operations but this letter spells it out in black and white. The provincial government can no longer deny responsibility for the Indigenous rights and human rights violations happening on our territories. We have come to the table with respect and truth but the province is not demonstrating respectful or truthful conduct. We have always asserted our laws and presence peacefully, yet the province authorized the extra deployment of RCMP against us. Canada and BC must answer to this mistruth and absolutely must change its ways.” “It is incredibly troubling and shocking that the provincial government would declare the peaceful assertion of Wet’suwet’en law and jurisdiction as a provincial policing emergency. The Wet’suwet’en people and the people of British Columbia have a right to know on what basis this unprecedented authorization was made. It is inconsistent for the provincial government to, on the one hand, legislate the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples as well as state non-interference in policing operations and, on the other hand, authorize a RCMP deployment aimed at over-policing and criminalizing Indigenous peoples on their own territories,” says Harsha Walia, Executive Director of the BC Civil Liberties Association. Grand Chief Stewart Phillip of the Union of BC Indian Chiefs stated, “This letter by Mike Farnworth reveals the blatant hypocrisy and lies of the provincial NDP government on the Wet’suwet’en crisis. Farnworth sat silently while Premier Horgan unabashedly lied that the Province did not direct RCMP actions. This is an act of government deceit not only against the Wet’suwet’en but of the public at-large. The province’s rhetoric about reconciliation rings even hollower. We call for the immediate resignation of Mike Farnworth for dishonourable conduct and for declaring the Wet’suwet’en people a policing emergency and a threat on their own territories.”
| |||||||
|
Semper Fidelis Registered: 01/11/05 Posts: 7,459 Loc: Harmless (Mostly) Last seen: 59 minutes, 15 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Really good thread to read from you both; Thunderdome!
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
![]() CP Rail’s Secret Injunction – and what it tells us Anonymous submission to North Shore Counter-Info Sometime on Friday March 6th, 2020 in a secret courtroom on University Ave in Toronto, CP Rail will make a motion to have their interim injunction be extended to an interlocutory one. Didn’t know CP had an injunction just like CN Rail’s? Neither did anyone but CP Rail & Justice Myers – until they decided to serve recent Hamilton arrestees at their homes after 9pm last night. We spent too much time thumbing through several hundred pages of documents today, and grace you with the highlights here. The Superior Court of Justice (Ontario) heard the motion for an interim injunction on February 25th before Justice Myers. It was granted, and then varied on the 26th. There’s a hearing on March 6th to extend the injunction. That said, evidence sheets were captures and printed in early February, so they’ve been preparing for awhile. The injunction itself has an enforcement order, directing police to enforce it immediately. Upon arrest, one would sign a condition stating they’ll abide by the injunction and released, or be brought before the court to be proceeded against for contempt of court. ![]() The injunction not only includes an order to stay 50 feet away from the outside rails of the tracks, and to not trespass, obstruct or block, but also “directly or indirectly intimidating any of CPR’s employees, contractors, agents…”. It also includes interfering with deliveries and contractors to a site, as well as “aiding, abetting, counseling, procuring or encouraging in any fashion any person or entity to commit or attempt to commit the actions mentioned”. Very thought-crime esque. But also nearly an exact replica of the CN injunction overall. Things get slightly more interesting when it comes to the section that includes the evidence needed to file for the injunction – namely to prove or affirm that blockades will irreparably harm their business. Most of it is still boring, but here are the clif notes: William Law, who is the district inspector in charge of Ontario and Quebec within the CP Rail police confirmed that red flags and flares on tracks indicate operators must stop immediately. Crews observing them are not permitted to pass beyond them. General Impacts of Blockades
“The Hamilton Blockade” (their words, not ours)
That’s it. We did say only slightly more interesting. Now mask up, get out there, and get away with it.
| |||||||
|
Noob Shroomer Registered: 02/20/20 Posts: 197 Loc: UK Last seen: 1 year, 9 months |
| ||||||
|
@shivas.wisdom You've done a sterling job covering this story
I don't expect to see it on the MSM anytime ever, bit like the French Yellow Jacket protest coverage, but I'm surprised it's not being covered by the .alt media at all. Mite be an idea to highlight it to people like Luke Rudkowski of 'We Are Change', James Corbett of 'The Corbett report', Derrick Broze of 'The Conscious Resistance Network' and Jason Burmas on youtube (loose change director) I visited Canada in 1977 as a kid, we'd been studying the Indigenous Nations in 'humanities' at school so I was looking forward to visiting one of the reservations to meet some of the people, I can't remember which nation it was, somewhere in Quebec not too far from Montreal. I don't know what I expected to see (probably something akin to 1950/60's hollywood westerns) but I can still remember, even as a kid, how sad I felt that a proud people with such a rich culture and history had been reduced to what appeared to be a tourist side show selling fake plastic trinkets. I guess that's how repression makes you feel, even when you don't understand repression. Good Luck in your struggle.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Thanks for your words. Outfits such as Submedia, The Narwhal, Straight, Tyee, Real People’s Media, Richochet and straight up unpaid activists on Twitter have held the line on facts, and on context.
But you know what they say - the revolution won't be televised
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
It’s Not Over
In the wake of limited talks between the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs and representatives of the Canadian state, a sense of confusion has set in. State and corporate media outfits have added to this confusion by portraying these talks as an endpoint to the protests that have been taking place for weeks in support of Wet’suwet’en and against the Coastal GasLink pipeline. But the fact remains that there’s been no agreement to allow for the pipeline to be built, and no calls have been made for people to take down their blockades. Despite what they want you to think… it’s not over. Bump this on your way to the blockades: A las barricadas!
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Good article providing some insight and example into the Canadian governments persistent tendency to favour resource extraction corporations over indigenous peoples. Bolding done by me.
Coastal GasLink broke B.C. pipeline rules more than 50 times Quote:
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
We’re still here: Tyendinaga Land Defenders holding strong despite OPP’s efforts
![]() Since February 24th, the date marking the forceful arrests of 10 Mohawk land defenders by the OPP, there has been an air of confusion regarding the current status of the Tyendinaga railway occupation on Wyman road, Ontario. Despite what some media platforms suggest, the occupation is active and undeterred from the struggle in support of the Wet’suwet’en people. This confusion has been perpetuated by both the ambiguous coverage of the violent use of force made by the OPP on February 24th, as well as the proposed agreement between B.C. senior ministers and Chief Woos on March 1st. This proposed agreement only regards the acknowledgement of the inalienable treaty rights given to hereditary leaders. This agreement seemingly did not include any terms or conditions regarding the cessation of the Coastal Gaslink (CGL) project or the invasion of CGL and RCMP on unceded land. Chief Woos and other hereditary leaders remain opposed to the project and await the movement of the RCMP off of their unceded land before any more discussions are to take place. It’s important to acknowledge how this confusion has been manufactured. Twisting the words and intentions of Indigenous voices and demonstrations in solidarity with Wet’suwet’en, the Canadian state seeks to install doubt into the hearts and minds of the public and steer them away from supporting actions which are striking the heart of Canadian capital. As long as the RCMP are on unceded Indigenous land, and the pipeline projects are underway, this struggle is not over. Continuing to directly support the blockades, the Unist’ot’en camp, and participating in local solidarity actions is now more crucial than ever. On Sunday March 8th, a group of supporters from Nogojiwanong Peterborough went to the village on Wyman Road, Tyendinaga to provide water, food, fuel, and other supplies to the land defenders currently holding their ground. These land defenders are currently healing from the aftermath of the violent use of force from the OPP, as well as some recent COINTELPRO-style tactics committed by the Tyendinaga police force. Self-proclaimed “Mohawk warriors” Shawn Brant and Terry Maracle formed an ad-hoc group dubbed the “Tyendinaga Mohawk Nation Men’s Council” in order to demand the removal of the Tyendinaga occupation. To say that this group is illegitimate and unrepresentative of the community would be an understatement. This so-called “Men’s Council” only speaks on behalf of the local police force to further threaten land defenders with unjustified violence under the guise of granting the community’s wishes. Information and demands that are generated and shared from either of these members or this fraudulent group should be denounced and seen for what they are: paid informants attempting to infiltrate and misdirect the movement. In light of these recent attempts to distort, undermine, and physically dismantle the railway occupation, Tyendinaga stands strong; remaining dedicated to standing on guard for the Wet’suwet’en people while this proposed agreement to resolve the unrecognized title to their hereditary lands is ongoing. Moving forward, genuine supporters of Tyendinaga and the Wet'suwet'en people should keep a keen eye out for infiltrators of the movement and recognize and denounce misinformation spread by them.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
COINTELPRO-style disruption tactics used by Tyendinaga Police against Real People’s Media and Wet’suwet’en solidarity movement
In recent days, Real People’s Media has become the target of a COINTELPRO-style smear campaign. While we do not normally publicly comment on attacks from trolls and social media haters, the situation has now escalated to one in which threats of vigilante violence have been made against RPM members and the participants at the Wyman Rd. camp. These threats have been made online and in person. The fingerprints of police involvement in “bad-jacketing” RPM members for violence are all over recent events. RPM has uncovered multiple instances of the Tyendinaga Police Service (affiliated with the Ontario Provincial Police) working to undermine and infiltrate the movement in solidarity with the Wet’suwet’en in Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory. This has included covert efforts by Tyendinaga Police Chief Jason Brant to remove the camp by issuing a fake press release that was sent to OPP Commissioner Thomas Carrique in the early hours of February 13th, 2020. The press release claimed that the Mohawks were standing down and leaving the Wyman Rd. location before the arrival of Indigenous Services Minister Marc Miller, and was timed to coincide with an aborted 8am SWAT Team raid to arrest the ‘hard line’ elements who wouldn’t clear the site. Real People’s Media captures Kanenhariyo’s conversation with OPP Police Commissioner Carrique. on the morning of February 13: The issuing of the secret police press release was arranged with self-proclaimed “Mohawk Warrior” Shawn Brant. Brant has been notably absent from involvement in the Wet’suwet’en solidarity movement in Tyendinaga except where he has appeared to actively undermine it. Brant was present along with CN Rail police and Tyendinaga Police Chief Jason Brant to observe the gathering on Wyman shortly after it began, but he was not present at the camp except on the evening of February 12th. That night, Shawn Brant made every effort to convince the people to leave the front lines – a request that was unsuccessful. When Tyendinaga Police Chief Jason Brant arrived on the morning of February 13th to carry out his and Shawn’s plans, he was promptly escorted out by Mohawk warriors. The Mohawk people at Wyman Rd. remove Tyendinaga Police Chief Jason Brant from the camp on the morning of February 13th: On February 25th, the Tyendinaga Police continued to interfere in the movement to support the Wet’suwet’en. Real People’s Media has obtained an audio recording of TPS Officer Marcel Maracle working to sow fear and division amongst the people, all while trying to influence political events by encouraging a contact to “put together a committee” made up of a “Bear, Wolf and Turtle” to make the decision “on behalf” of the people to shut down the camps and leave. This is the audio of Tyendinaga Police Services Officer Marcel Maracle in conversation with a member of the solidarity action in support of the Wet’suwet’en on Feb 25, 2020. The audio has been edited to remove the voice of the person Officer Maracle was seeking to influence: Officer Maracle is also overheard on the tape claiming that [Mohawk Clan Mother] “Carol Anne has pulled out the women and children, because I called her…. I told her ‘your daughter is in there, things are occurring, and people are going to get hurt.’” He also stated that the OPP was not going to charge anybody right now (Feb 25) “not because they’re giving immunity, but because they can’t identify anybody.” This statement has been proven to be untrue by APTN’s reporting that the OPP police liaisons “gave intelligence, identities of Tyendinaga Mohawks to CN Rail without legal challenge.” The question of what involvement the Tyendinaga Police Service has played in providing the OPP with the identities of the 24 Mohawk men who have been charged or issued summons to appear in court for supporting the Wet’suwet’en remains unclear. The Tyendinaga Police Service continued to play politics most recently on March 5th, when a vehicle belonging to Real People’s Media co-founder Tom Keefer was pulled over on reserve by Officer Marcel Maracle. Keefer was not in the vehicle, but its driver, a videographer for Real People’s Media, was stopped. No charges or tickets were given by the officer. Instead, Officer Maracle simply reported over the radio that the driver was a Registered Sex Offender and that he was driving Keefer’s vehicle. The following evening, a meeting was convened by a group led by Officer Marcel Maracle’s brother Terry Maracle. This ad-hoc group called itself the “Tyendinaga Mohawk Nation Men’s Council” and was organized to discuss the information reported by Officer Maracle on the police scanner. According to a first-hand report, this group met while drinking alcohol, and without any investigation of the matter, issued a statement published on the Facebook account of Terry Maracle that “ordered” the removal of RPM co-founder Tom Keefer from the territory, and the dispersal of what it called “the transients” from “the Keefer Camp” [the Wyman Rd. encampment] with the use of “all necessary and appropriate force.” After the meeting, two of the men who had been drinking at the meeting drove through the community drunk, and arrived at the home of RPM co-founder Kanenhariyo Seth Lefort with the intention of doing violence to him in the middle of the night. Fortunately, the men were talked down and left without further incident. One of the men returned to apologize for his actions the following day. Neither Real People’s Media nor its co-founders Kanenhariyo Seth Lefort or Tom Keefer had any knowledge that the RPM volunteer driving Keefer’s car had a criminal record or had been charged with a domestic sexual assault in 2008. Once informed, RPM immediately addressed the issue. The driver agreed to leave the territory and not return, and he is no longer involved with Real People’s Media. The individual in question has written a statement on the matter which is published below to provide further context for our readers. ![]() The so called “Men’s Council” has continued to promote violence and threats against the camp. On the evening of Saturday March 8th, a group of about two dozen affiliated with Maracle showed up at the site, threatening to take it down and do violence to the men there. The Tyendinaga Police Services were on hand to block the road leading into the camp so that no supporters of the camp could enter. Only those opposed to the camp and affiliated with Terry Maracle and Shawn Brant’s “Men Council” were allowed through, creating the conditions for a violent confrontation within the community. After a 45 minute discussion at the main entrance of the camp, it was decided the people would meet again at 3pm on Sunday, March 8 to discuss the concerns of the people in Tyendinaga about the camp. ![]() An eagle flies over the Wyman Rd. Camp The Wet’suwet’en resistance to the CGL pipeline and the RCMP invasion has kickstarted a historic movement across Turtle Island of Indigenous people standing up through their Clans and Hereditary systems to reclaim their lands and to control their territory. This movement has shaken the Canadian colonial system and its national security apparatus. Those benefiting from Canada’s Indian Act system and the delivery of its programs and services on reserve are similarly shook. The Indian Act is coming to an end, and the grassroots people are rising up to re-establish their traditional systems on their own lands. Real People’s Media has been committed to elevating and telling the stories of the people’s movement in solidarity with the Wet’suwet’en and the revival and strengthening of Onkwehon:we Clan-based systems over the past five years. Real People’s Media is owned and operated under the guidance of the Bear Clan in Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory. We remain fully committed to the struggle in support of the Wet’suwet’en people, and are undeterred by the actions of police, infiltrators and agents against ourselves or the movement. Having said that, the situation in Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory is dire. The actions of the Tyendinaga Police Services are threatening the peace, and encouraging vigilante violence. We call upon our viewers, listeners and readers to remember the lessons learned in the murderous disruption of the American Indian Movement and the Black Panther Party by COINTELPRO, and we urge everyone to thoroughly investigate matters before leaping to conclusions or taking action. We encourage those people belonging to Clans to meet within them to discuss these matters and to consider an appropriate response to police and outsider interference in Onkwehon:we affairs. We call for non-Indigenous people and Indigenous people without Clans to listen to and amplify the voices of those people meeting in their Clans – rather than to speak for or interfere in Onkwehon:we affairs. The camp at Wyman Rd. remains up and active, and the Mohawks continue to stand on guard for the Wet’suwet’en people as they discuss and decide upon a proposed agreement to resolve the issue of unrecognized title to their ancestral lands and the invasion of CGL and the RCMP invasion on their lands. We also call for our readers and supporters to provide us with any further information that they may have regarding the sabotage and disruption of the Wet’suwet’en solidarity movement and police infiltration in Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory. Real People’s Media remains committed to expressing and amplifying the voices of the Onkwehon:we people, and we are in for what we know will be a long and ongoing struggle.
| |||||||
|
בּ Registered: 02/19/09 Posts: 13,428 Loc: Turtle Island Last seen: 10 minutes, 5 seconds |
| ||||||
|
Let's end things on a lighter note after that drop. This short video is from four years ago when Chevron was hoping to build a pipeline on Wet'suwet'en territory - it's a hilarious example of woke capitalism
| |||||||
| |||||||
| Shop: |
|
| Similar Threads | Poster | Views | Replies | Last post | ||
![]() |
Bush proposes alternative to N. Korea standoff ( |
2,203 | 41 | 10/21/03 03:38 PM by afoaf | ||
![]() |
2020 VISION What will Canada look like in 15 years? ( |
10,354 | 65 | 12/12/19 01:38 PM by JohnRainy | ||
![]() |
Is Canada still part of the British Empire? | 3,335 | 12 | 06/27/05 06:32 PM by Signo | ||
![]() |
Oh Canada ( |
3,770 | 46 | 07/07/05 10:27 PM by Phluck | ||
![]() |
SHAME ON CANADA - FREE SPEECH IN PERIL! ( |
2,335 | 39 | 08/21/02 11:50 AM by EvilBastard | ||
![]() |
The legality of cubenis in canada.(for greghimself) | 1,054 | 12 | 12/20/03 08:51 PM by Phred | ||
![]() |
Iran says open to "new conditions" over standoff | 400 | 0 | 09/14/06 12:56 AM by Dexter_Morgan | ||
![]() |
Cultivation Laws in Canada | 1,108 | 12 | 06/14/03 05:20 PM by Dogomush |
| Extra information | ||
| You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa 1,995 topic views. 2 members, 5 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum. [ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ] | ||


















