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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26514144 - 03/03/20 08:14 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

whats the alternative, enlil?

it took 3 weeks of them fucking with the railroads to get you guys to hear about it. what other kinds of protest would have gotten you all talking?


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26514158 - 03/03/20 08:20 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A blockade is a use of force that can only be stopped by a countervailing use of force.




nah plenty of other outcomes there

i bet if they listened to the tribes and engaged them in meaningful, legitimate negotiations theyd go take their baracades down


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: MadMuncher] * 1
    #26514198 - 03/03/20 08:45 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Well if all teachers go on strike, hiring enough new ones is prolly about as feasible as building a new railroad to circumvent the blockade


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: MadMuncher] * 1
    #26514207 - 03/03/20 08:51 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Me talking?  What do I have to do with it?  I'm not Canadian.

I can see that you're not going to ever get it.  That's alright.  It's very hard to bridge the gap between those who believe that ends can justify means and those who believe that they cannot.  Your very question illustrates the fundamental gap between us:

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
what other kinds of protest would have gotten you all talking?




That same rationale can be used to rationalize any immoral behavior.  "baby, I don't want to have to hit you, but how else can I make you listen?"  "we don't want to kill 3,000 americans, but how else can we make them take us seriously?" 

And therein lies the impasse.  I'll never see how an immoral act becomes moral solely because of the motivation behind it.  You'll never see how an action taken to right an injustice can be an unjust act.  I firmly believe you're wrong.  You firmly believe I'm wrong.  It is what it is.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: feldman114]
    #26514212 - 03/03/20 08:54 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Well if all teachers go on strike, hiring enough new ones is prolly about as feasible as building a new railroad to circumvent the blockade




That is, of course, the risk that a school takes by not having thousands of backup teachers on standby.  Slavery has been outlawed for a long time, and people have a right not to work a job they don't want to work.

I know of no right that people have to blockade a rail line.  Of course, as noted above, I'm not Canadian....is such a right codified in Canada?


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #26514232 - 03/03/20 09:08 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

“Ends vs means” does seem like a stance that applies here...at first.

But consider the fact that, before the forceful invasion and genocide that gave birth to Canada/US, there were already laws here, primitive or not.
So are the Natives breaking laws by blockading, or is the entire railroad illegal from their point of view?

Most importantly, what makes our (newer) laws supersede the Native’s laws?
Their argument is solid - they were here first - but what’s ours?


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: feldman114]
    #26514246 - 03/03/20 09:16 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
...
Most importantly, what makes our (newer) laws supersede the Native’s laws?
Their argument is solid - they were here first - but what’s ours?




that we are better at it
it is the same sentiment that colours my earlier statements with regards to generational success
even now, we claim to respect First Nations traditions as valid; but any who do not adhere and integrate into the Canadian system are considered to be failures or wastes of resources
when this is similiar to the:


this is where my personal investment in the issues with European bans on seal products diminishing the capacity for Inuit to live by their traditional values comes in to play
Inuit have hunted seal for generation, they use it for food and clothing
in order to integrate into the Western system, they need avenues to sell their product
but a ban on industrial-sourced seal products has resulted in a completely collapsed market for Inuit to try and sell to
and since it's ice, snow, seals, oil and minerals
they are increasingly under pressure from mining and oil interests to be provided with a cushy income by selling out their traditional lands

and this thread has nothing to do with Greta Thunberg
but am fairly certain while she supports the rail protests, she would not put pressure on her own European governments to repeal the seal ban

:cookiemonster:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: feldman114]
    #26514254 - 03/03/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That's a different discussion, and I'm more than happy to engage that one, too...but that is absolutely a diversion from, as opposed to a counterargument to, the current discussion.

As to that discussion, first we have to determine who is who.  Is there anyone alive today who lost land to colonization?  I don't know the answer to that because I'm not up on Canadian history, but if there isn't, your entire argument becomes moot.  If you want to argue that the blockades are a lawful expression of someone's property rights, then you're going to have to establish that some individual has a claim to that property...not just that someone's ancestors did.

I grew up in a house.  Through no fault of my own, that house is no longer in the family.  I have no right to now enter that house.  What you're suggesting, however, is even further removed.  My grandfather, who was dead before I was born, lived in a house in Evansville, Indiana.  Do I have a claim to that property?

And as to your final question, newer laws always supercede older laws.  If they didn't, we'd still have slavery.  What would ever be the point of passing a law if it couldn't change an older law?


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil]
    #26514279 - 03/03/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's a different discussion, and I'm more than happy to engage that one, too...but that is absolutely a diversion from, as opposed to a counterargument to, the current discussion.

As to that discussion, first we have to determine who is who.  Is there anyone alive today who lost land to colonization?  I don't know the answer to that because I'm not up on Canadian history, but if there isn't, your entire argument becomes moot.  If you want to argue that the blockades are a lawful expression of someone's property rights, then you're going to have to establish that some individual has a claim to that property...not just that someone's ancestors did.

I grew up in a house.  Through no fault of my own, that house is no longer in the family.  I have no right to now enter that house.  What you're suggesting, however, is even further removed.  My grandfather, who was dead before I was born, lived in a house in Evansville, Indiana.  Do I have a claim to that property?

And as to your final question, newer laws always supercede older laws.  If they didn't, we'd still have slavery.  What would ever be the point of passing a law if it couldn't change an older law?




Well you brought up the right of teachers not to go to work.

Anyway, I’m starting to think I’m shit at forums, because my main point didn’t get across at all.

Your entire premise is based on property laws that the Natives disagreed with. If they had their way, your family home would be back in your possession once the person who bought it died (if I understand correctly).

So my point was that, from the perspective of the Natives - who were building a unique civilization here for thousands of years - the railroad is standing on top of their property. They’re just chillin in their backyards, and no one has the authority to tell them to leave their homes.

As for new vs old laws - it’s not like I’m comparing the constitution of different time periods. There are laws that existed until we illegally removed them from history, via mass murder. It’s hard to justify why they have to follow our laws after that


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: feldman114] * 1
    #26514314 - 03/03/20 09:53 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

We?  I didn't remove anyone from history or mass murder anyone.  So, you and who else?

Or are you just saying that one group conquered another group's land?

The difference here is crucial, of course, because I am not a group.  I am a person.  I am accountable for my actions.  I hold you accountable for yours.  I hold these people blockading rail lines accountable for theirs.  I couldn't care less what groups they belong to.

So, my argument is that these people are harming other people by doing something they have no right to do.  They justify harming these people because of harm that has been done to completely different people by yet another set of completely different people.  All of this is rationalized because of the groups people have identified themselves and others as belonging to. 

Sure, it's easier to say it's the good guys vs the bad guys, but the people on trains trying to get home are only the bad guys because of their ancestry.  How is that different than what the indigenous people are accusing Canada's government of doing?

This is terrorism, plain and simple.  Random people are literally being harmed solely to effect a political change.  There's no nexus between these victims and any social wrong...they just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.  The terrorists have no legal justification for what they're doing, and they have no moral justification for it.  The only rationalization offered in this thread is, "what else could they do?" 

Rosa Parks was brought up in this thread.  Now, the history of her actions is a bit skewed because it was all set up for her to be arrested on that day, but what she did was brave nonetheless.  She used her individual right of autonomy to right a wrong at great risk to herself.  She could have lost that case.  She could have ended up in jail with a permanent criminal record.  That didn't happen, and change occurred.  The point, however, is that she put HERSELF on the line for something she believed in.

In contrast, these terrorists are holding the nation hostage.  They are risking themselves, sure, but they're also tossing in a bunch of random, unwitting people into the mix to make the sacrifice greater.  There's nothing honorable or noble about that.  That's using people as tools to get what you want.  That's wrong under any moral analysis.

As I said before, I don't believe we're ever going break this impasse.  Either you believe that the ends justify the means or you do not.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26514467 - 03/03/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The protections given to striking workers by the National Labor Relations Act does make exceptions for transportation workers, which is how Reagan was able to replace the air traffic controllers. But when you combine the legal framework with the strength of certain unions, it is just about impossible to replace teachers in a Northern city, and it has nothing to do with the supply of capable replacements.

It's really a situational thing. Catepillar successfully put down a strike in downstate Illinois in 95, replaced the workers and remained profitable while doing so. I doubt they could have done that in Chicago.


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #26514477 - 03/03/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know enough about the issue to have an informed opinion.



So maybe stop sharing your uninformed opinions then?



Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm simply taking a position against the specific people (scumbags) who are intentionally harming people.  People in this thread seem so blinded by the overall injustice (real or perceived) against the indigenous people



I mean just look at this ignorant opinion. You're 100% certain that these blockades are harming people but uncertain if the injustices experienced by indigenous are "real or perceived".

I don't know how old you are, but I hope you live another 50 years so that you can see just how wrong you are right now.



Quote:

Enlil said:
I know of no right that people have to blockade a rail line.  Of course, as noted above, I'm not Canadian....is such a right codified in Canada?



The right to evict trespassers on their land is codified in the traditional laws of our First Nations, and the Canadian courts have accepted that indigenous law counts in Canadian courts.

So yes, these blockades are completely within Canadian law. Our government just has a tendency of ignoring its own laws regarding indigenous land title.



Quote:

Enlil said:
That same rationale can be used to rationalize any immoral behavior.  "baby, I don't want to have to hit you, but how else can I make you listen?"  "we don't want to kill 3,000 americans, but how else can we make them take us seriously?"



Yes because these blockades are just like domestic abuse or mass murder. :eyeroll: You are wrong, and no one is listening to your uneducated opinions.

Perhaps you can better explain what justifies an action, since you appear to be the expert on determining if an act is just or injust.

Also, still waiting for you to offer an alternative solution other than "wait patiently for the oppression to stop"....


Edit: I think if you were making an attempt to provide constructive criticism and alternative solutions to the situation indigenous peoples in Canada currently face, rather than stubbornly persisting in rejecting the current actions without being able to suggest anything better, you might be taken more seriously here.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/03/20 12:58 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26514851 - 03/03/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You've been spewing uninformed opinions here for years, dude.  I'm sure that I am entitled to do the same.


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26514986 - 03/03/20 04:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

OK Boomer


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26515019 - 03/03/20 05:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Keep the personal attacks out of this forum please.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil]
    #26515310 - 03/03/20 07:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

youre a hypocrite.

47,000 examples of why not to narcissism

i havnt read them all but enough to wonder if anyones told you that before.

Quote:

Enlil said:
You've been spewing uninformed opinions here for years, dude.  I'm sure that I am entitled to do the same.





"retard logic."


sadism is a real thing too. the mass murders you talk of only seem to happen when you have a majority population of complacent uneducated imbeciles like weve seen here

i need to get the fuck out of here i thought we were getting somewhere but then i realized how much better you are than everyone else

oh im not a mod i cant say shit like that whoops..


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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26515325 - 03/03/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You mad, bro?  You seem out of rational debate points and now you, too, are going to personal attacks.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil]
    #26515355 - 03/03/20 07:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

dude i could talk about this shit all day everyday. you know nothing, which is partly your schools and parents failing you, partly circumstantial, but mostly your own fault for not wanting to learn.

i cant debate with uneducated egotistical assholes

your words are twisted, you dodged every question, you squirm around derailing everything and changing topics


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Spicemaster said: The stories. The words. The descriptions. Keep your list handy.
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26515368 - 03/03/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Because your questions are all irrelevant to my point, which you obviously missed.  I am not arguing that the indigenous people don't have a legitimate gripe.  I'm not taking sides between them and the government.  The reason for that is that I don't have enough information to have an informed opinion.  That's why I haven't stated any opinion about that.

My point...and my only point...is that the SPECIFIC PEOPLE who are blockading the rail lines are in the wrong.  What they are doing is morally indefensible.  It doesn't matter what bad things have happened to them.  It doesn't matter what they're trying to change.  None of that has any bearing whatsoever on the moral quality of the blockades.  It's that simple.

That's why I'm not going to answer your nonsensical question about "what else could they do?"  It has absolutely no relevance to my point.  Further, it's a question I can't answer without knowing:

1. What problem are they trying to solve?
2. What have they tried so far to solve it?

The answers to those questions will invariably lead to other questions.  Eventually, I'll have an answer, even if that answer is, "nothing...this is one of those situations where they don't get what they want."

But none of that matters here, because my point has NOTHING to do with any of that.  Simply put IT DOESN'T MATTER what problem they're trying to address or what they've tried, because none of it will justify victimizing thousands of random people who have done nothing to deserve their victimization.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Shutdown Canada: The Wet’suwet’en Standoff [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #26515420 - 03/03/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

thank you for that post very good👍

youd have found a lot of answers if you had read through any of those links shiva shared in the first page, then we could have had a proper debate, i didnt realize you never read them. makes sense now seeing how much space you filled with your ignorance

this is some high quality internet right here. its like everything you should have learned in history class by the 6th grade hidden between your arrogant posts.


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Edited by MadMuncher (03/03/20 08:32 PM)


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