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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineSpiralspider
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Registered: 06/20/16
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I know that i dont know by socrates
    #26496900 - 02/21/20 11:56 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

What does this mean? "I only know that i dont know"...

Should we not say everything we think or should we say it without worrying?

I mean sometimes i want to say what im thinking but whether is not appropriate or i dont know why im saying that i keep it to myself.. i dont know if im.being ignorant or not.

What do you know? Is it actually true...


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InvisibleRahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: I know that i dont know by socrates [Re: Spiralspider]
    #26496941 - 02/21/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think it points to not making shit up in the face of ignorance to fool others, or one's self, into thinking one knows an answer when they don't.

In a general sense, maybe it's best to always be open to learning more, or to being wrong, even when one has good reason to suspect otherwise. Being prone to chisel things into stone makes for a lot of work unlearning. We all write things down though, metaphorically speaking.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I know that i dont know by socrates [Re: Rahz]
    #26497009 - 02/21/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I think it points to not making shit up in the face of ignorance to fool others, or one's self, into thinking one knows an answer when they don't.

In a general sense, maybe it's best to always be open to learning more, or to being wrong, even when one has good reason to suspect otherwise. Being prone to chisel things into stone makes for a lot of work unlearning. We all write things down though, metaphorically speaking.




.  As Rhaz says: "not making shit up in the face of ignorance to fool others, or one's self, into thinking one knows an answer when they don't."
.  And a large percentage of us do this. Religion attempts to supply answers, that mostly have no substance, yet folks not only argue about such 'things' but kill one another over differences that have no substance.

.  In fact Socrates was put to death by the Athenian Greeks (whom we are supposed to admire as being foundational to our civilization), for rubbing their noses in the fact that most of what they pretended to know they didn't.

.  As Rhaz says the alternative is "to always be open to learning more". This is the attitutude that hopefully children and scientists have.

.  In everyday life, the middle path may be not to take oneself seriously, to act graciously, with poise, & kindness, that is appropriate to each situation.
.  On the other hand having an agenda, based on belief (what one thinks one knows), that one clings to and uses force, to make oneself or others, comply to, is simply silly, from Socrates' point of view.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I know that i dont know by socrates [Re: Spiralspider]
    #26497109 - 02/21/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

it means that there is no certainty of anything except uncertainty


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InvisibleHartford
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Re: I know that i dont know by socrates [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26497134 - 02/21/20 02:59 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

He didn't know because he was a lazy seeker


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: I know that i dont know by socrates [Re: Spiralspider]
    #26497228 - 02/21/20 03:54 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think Socrates meant that when he looked around at reality, at society, he wondered, "What is any of this? Who are these beings, and who am I? What am I doing inside this body? Why anything?" And he concluded that he didn't and couldn't know. He does not extend this to others, as he said, "All that I know, is that I know not." So that was a very general, and a very deep statement. Ultimately, none of us really knows the answer to, "Why existence?"

On the other hand, I do think it is possible to know things. There are many things that can be known, among the very low order of existence humans inhabit. One frivolous example would be the average distance of the Earth from the Sun. This is not a deep truth, but it is, seemingly, an objective one. This is just an example. We must understand our deep ignorance but, having done that, realize that sometimes we do know the truth, here and there.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I know that i dont know by socrates [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26499841 - 02/23/20 11:57 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

"He does not extend this to others," ... if that is so why did they put him to death?
Probably best to consult source material.

https://www.quora.com/Why-was-Socrates-sentenced-to-death?share=1

"Greg Klebanoff, Ph.D. Philosophy & Philosophy of Religion, University of Arkansas, Fayetteville (1998)
Updated Jan 16 2019 · Author has 1.6k answers and 2.1m answer views
His official charges were corrupting the youth of Athens and disrespecting the gods, but to say this was why he was sentenced to death is misleading. According to Plato’s Apology, the Delphic Oracle (believed to be the voice of the gods) declared that Socrates was the wisest of all men. Socrates believed he was ignorant, yet he also regarded the oracle as infallible. To resolve the conundrum he set out to test the oracle’s meaning by questioning people with great reputations for wisdom. A brilliant debater on his feet, Socrates succeeded again and again in demonstrating that their claims of wisdom were false; and that, while they thought themselves wise, they really were not. Ultimately, Socrates concluded that his “wisdom” consisted in awareness of his own ignorance: The men who claimed to have knowledge of concepts such as “truth,” “justice,” and “piety” did not really know them at all, whereas Socrates neither knew nor thought he knew, and thus was wiser."etc...


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: I know that i dont know by socrates [Re: laughingdog]
    #26499965 - 02/23/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

All I meant was that he said, "All that I know, is that I know nothing." So he didn't generalize his own ignorance to other people, which I consider magnanimous. I think, though, that indeed, he thought most Athenians were full of shit, and that is slightly different. In any case, it's not a point to belabor.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I know that i dont know by socrates [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26500046 - 02/23/20 02:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

.  I think, his view, was like that of Chuang-Tzu and Buddha. Of course I can't prove it, but the fact that he not only said it of himself but also that: "Socrates debated in the middle of town and drew crowds of spectators, who came to see him show up self important know-it-alls. Of course, in the process he made many powerful enemies. Unable to come up with any legitimate charges against him, they resorted to stock charges against philosophers." ;  lends some evidence to this interpretation


Chuang-Tzu's allegory also suggests, what many prefer to ignore:
"Once upon a time, I, Zhuangzi, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Zhuangzi. Soon I awakened, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man"

.  Namely that it is not possible for anyone to know any "metaphysical" things for certain. Not that we can't find the toilet or drive a car.

.    Buddha went even further, and suggested that such speculations, are actually harmful in that they distract us, from what we can actually do that is worthwhile with our limited time.

https://dhammakami.org/2018/08/26/what-are-the-ten-questions-that-the-buddha-did-not-answer/

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=questions+buddha+would+not+answer&t=h_&ia=web

.    Buddha & Chuang-Tzu were more prudent than Socrates who got himself killed; in how they expressed (what seems to me) the same insight.

.  I do not think Socrates considered himself a dummy, quite the contrary he knew he was smart. That's why he could confidently debate all comers. What he did know, like
Buddha & Chuang-Tzu, were the limitations of logic, how unwarranted assumptions are made, how people deceive themselves, how desperately people want conclusions, and to appear smart & such like. He knew this like B & C partly because he had observed it in himself. Hence like Chuang-Tzu he included himself in being caught in human limitations when declaring he knew nothing (for certain), while on another level knowing he was sharp as a tack. IMO


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I know that i dont know by socrates [Re: laughingdog]
    #26500094 - 02/23/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

we can know facts and models, but when we project what we know upon the world around us instead of observing it as it is (using memory and perception as contextual orientation), we are doing an ignorant thing.


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InvisibleNekai
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Re: I know that i dont know by socrates [Re: Spiralspider]
    #26500479 - 02/23/20 08:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Spiralspider said:
What does this mean? "I only know that i dont know"...

Should we not say everything we think or should we say it without worrying?

I mean sometimes i want to say what im thinking but whether is not appropriate or i dont know why im saying that i keep it to myself.. i dont know if im.being ignorant or not.

What do you know? Is it actually true...




When it comes down to it, we can't know absolute truth, because everything is evaluated in relation by another, which follows the same logic.

We can think we know, but we can't actually know.

Don't worry about that though because the mystery is absolute, there's nothing that can change that, but we can rejoice in the the fact that everyone and everything lives by this fact.

It's magical.


--------------------
G o o d  s p o r e s !

All posts are for research purposes only.
Feeling off? Take a break & try to get healthy. There's nothing wrong with being sober, it's actually the best thing.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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