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Offlinesusurrador
Psychedelic Cowboy


Registered: 03/31/19
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26495135 - 02/20/20 12:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
Instead of increasing prices, companies can simply decrease their profits.


This would have to be a "trickle up theory" and would never work, but it would, but it won't happen. It's so simple. How much does a person really need when they have excessive amounts of everything?:shrug:




That's the crux, T.

How much does a person need? How do you figure that out? The only way is to let people decide for themselves how much they need and give them as much freedom as possible to go out and meet their own needs. You personally don't need bazillions to be content, but what if you had aspirations that cost bazillions to achieve? What if you wanted to build a Taj Mahal-like palace as a tribute to your partner? Like... wanted it so bad you needed it. Or were dead set on being the person responsible for colonizing another planet, or wanted to eradicate AIDS, or just build a lego tower to the moon?

How awful the world would be if the people with megalithic dreams and corresponding ability were steady held down by a misappropriation of responsibility.


--------------------
"If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."



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Invisibletyrannicalrex
Strange R
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Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,331
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador]
    #26495138 - 02/20/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

LOL, I know. :peace: The crux of the biscuit, is the apostrophe.

Who the fuck needs a lear jet and a gold toilet seat though? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say,hmmmmmm, not one motherfucking person ever!


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26495146 - 02/20/20 12:59 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
why did you jump all over the compensation point but not touch the other two points that come as part of a package? clearly the compenastion point clearly had enough value for you to address. now you gave up on arguing that and you never even touched the increase in consumption or disposable income per capita.

why dont you point me to the page where I could find the relevant discussion instead of telling me to read an over 20 page thread that ive already posted in like half of?



It was simply the only thing NOT previously addressed in this very thread🤷🏻‍♂️


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador]
    #26495154 - 02/20/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

susurrador said:
Actually I think that's defined as Maslow's hierarchy of needs, specifically.

But notice how physiological needs are the only needs we can reliably and easily measure?

How do you measure love and distribute that proportionately? Or fairly?

I don't think Maslow's model defines human needs in a way that can be translated into providing better lives through economic regulation.

Again because it includes aspects that are not measurable and hold differing levels of importance for people on a case by case basis.

Can't build successful policy measuring things that are difficult or impossible to measure.



If you know about Maslow’s work, how can you say these things are immeasurable?

Love is a social need. To fulfill it, people must have the means to attract and meet mates. So a person should make enough to afford dates or anniversary presents (just examples), in addition to everything else they need.
It’s hard to come up with a number, but not impossible. My personal idea is to ask the poorest person how much they spend on dates/anniversary presents.


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Offlinesusurrador
Psychedelic Cowboy


Registered: 03/31/19
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26495168 - 02/20/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
LOL, I know. :peace: The crux of the biscuit, is the apostrophe.

Who the fuck needs a lear jet and a gold toilet seat though? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say,hmmmmmm, not one motherfucking person ever!




Isn't it a pointless question though? You could go through every single person's possessions on Earth and find something they possess that they don't need.

Is that a reason to keep them from having it?


--------------------
"If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."



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Offlinesusurrador
Psychedelic Cowboy


Registered: 03/31/19
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
    #26495185 - 02/20/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Quote:

susurrador said:
Actually I think that's defined as Maslow's hierarchy of needs, specifically.

But notice how physiological needs are the only needs we can reliably and easily measure?

How do you measure love and distribute that proportionately? Or fairly?

I don't think Maslow's model defines human needs in a way that can be translated into providing better lives through economic regulation.

Again because it includes aspects that are not measurable and hold differing levels of importance for people on a case by case basis.

Can't build successful policy measuring things that are difficult or impossible to measure.



If you know about Maslow’s work, how can you say these things are immeasurable?

Love is a social need. To fulfill it, people must have the means to attract and meet mates. So a person should make enough to afford dates or anniversary presents (just examples), in addition to everything else they need.
It’s hard to come up with a number, but not impossible. My personal idea is to ask the poorest person how much they spend on dates/anniversary presents.




Why go through all the trouble though? It would be an extremely difficult task to measure all these things that most people can only dance around a definition. What is love? Define it. Not everyone will agree with you. Now try to measure this already difficult to define thing and now even fewer people will agree on the math. Now try to apply this sketchily defined thing using shakey math try to apply it to all the unique people and their personal situations.

It is backwards.

No need to do any defining or math if people are simply given the freedom to decide their own needs and act accordingly to meet those needs.

That way, no matter how great or small your needs are.... there is a simple and clear path to achievement.

Edit- srry double posted.


--------------------
"If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."



Edited by susurrador (02/20/20 01:17 PM)


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OfflineTaliesenW
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador]
    #26495190 - 02/20/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

that's a lot of money, what did he do to gain so much $?


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
    #26495204 - 02/20/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feldman114 said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
why did you jump all over the compensation point but not touch the other two points that come as part of a package? clearly the compenastion point clearly had enough value for you to address. now you gave up on arguing that and you never even touched the increase in consumption or disposable income per capita.

why dont you point me to the page where I could find the relevant discussion instead of telling me to read an over 20 page thread that ive already posted in like half of?



It was simply the only thing NOT previously addressed in this very thread🤷🏻‍♂️



lol ok then would you tell me where rhose other points have been addressed? which page?

you're not fooling anyone.

you think your arguments are unique? you think I havent heard similar arguments before? give me a break.


Edited by BANANA.MAN (02/20/20 01:31 PM)


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: TaliesenW]
    #26495210 - 02/20/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TaliesenW said:
that's a lot of money, what did he do to gain so much $?




Bezos opened the internet mall and got everyone to shop there.

It is often (not always) cheaper, faster, requires less user effort, and more reliable than going through a bunch of middlemen.

Amazon's raging success is a sign that it's made a contribution that people find useful and good. Otherwise, Amazon would not be so successful.


--------------------
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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador]
    #26495225 - 02/20/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

susurrador said:
Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
LOL, I know. :peace: The crux of the biscuit, is the apostrophe.

Who the fuck needs a lear jet and a gold toilet seat though? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say,hmmmmmm, not one motherfucking person ever!




Isn't it a pointless question though? You could go through every single person's possessions on Earth and find something they possess that they don't need.

Is that a reason to keep them from having it?




YES! If it's a fucking gold toilet seat, or a leer jet etc....no question about it, period.


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: TaliesenW]
    #26495226 - 02/20/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

He also had more opportunity, connections, family money and wealth backing him up to achieve that goal.


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26495235 - 02/20/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
Quote:

susurrador said:
Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
LOL, I know. :peace: The crux of the biscuit, is the apostrophe.

Who the fuck needs a lear jet and a gold toilet seat though? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say,hmmmmmm, not one motherfucking person ever!




Isn't it a pointless question though? You could go through every single person's possessions on Earth and find something they possess that they don't need.

Is that a reason to keep them from having it?




YES! If it's a fucking gold toilet seat, or a leer jet etc....no question about it, period.




You don't need the device you're communicating on right now. Is that a reason to take it from you?

Of course not.

So it has to follow the same for the gold toilet seat.

Otherwise you're suggesting that some people are to be held to different standards than other people.

That doesn't sound like equality. Isn't equality a good thing in your eyes?


--------------------
"If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."



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Offlineqman
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 1
    #26495264 - 02/20/20 02:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

feldman114 said:
Income determines the product bundle people choose. So, obviously, sick days and maternity leaves don’t count as income.

401k’s and insurance do, but you use your income to pay for those. You just use untaxed dollars.

The argument that if it wasn’t for mandated vacation time, employers would be able to pay more is asinine in the context of this thread. Bezos can already afford to pay his workers more...



I could afford to pay a kid $1000 to shovel snow or rake leaves. its not about what you can afford its about what the labour costs. and the cost of labour is set by the market.

if its paid sick days and maternity leave it has a value. all benefits have a value. it is still a cost to the employer. if you have a 70 000 salary or a 65 000 salary and 5000 in benefits its the same cost to the employer and the same benefit to the employee. It is totally dishonest to exclude benefits

If you want to argue this point you would also have to explain why disposable income or consumption percapita has also increased dramatically since the 70s.
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Real wages claim to be adjusted for purchasing power but there have been many innovations which improve quality of life since the 70s. you cant compare the purchasing power.

besides you are using the wrong stats. if you look at for example real compensation per capita (all benefits not just wages), real personal consuptionnexpenditures per capita or personal disposable income per capita you will see an increase in loving standardssince the 70s.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0A048NBEA
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A794RX0Q048SBEA


https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/COMPRNFB


Look at you putting people into groups and comparing the groups together. you are doing what you accused me of. you cant just put people into 4 groups and then ignore the fact that throughout the whole time period you have people moving accross groups during that whole time period. many of the people who were in the lowest bracket in the 70s are no longer there.

most wealth is earned not inherited. you cant just put people into groups like that and ignote that the groups are made up of totally different people and infact the previous population of the bottom group have since expetienced upward mobility.

in regards to your chart about wages not following productivity. first of all if you looked at total compensation and not just wages it would follow productivity more closely.

https://www.heritage.org/jobs-and-labor/report/productivity-and-compensation-growing-together

"The second problem is that this chart arguably uses an inappropriate measure of inflation, the CPI, which shows a very small increase in wages. The CPI is a measure of inflation more suited to the consumer market. Labor is a factor of production and, thus, a measure of inflation in the factors market is more appropriate, like the Implicit Price Deflator."

https://fee.org/articles/5-myths-about-income-inequality-debunked/




Hmm, why are you posting about per capita?  We're discussing the working class, why would you put in the millionaires/billionaires into a statistic with the peasants?  It makes no sense. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0A048NBEA

How about "real MEDIAN household income", which obviously doesn't take into account TWO or more people working instead of ONE person like they did 40 years ago. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

Oh yes, the total compensation!!!  It doesn't include the stock options.  What a joke already, people have LESS benefits today with less health care, zero pensions and self funded 401k plans.

Almost anyone with even a small degree of intellectual honestly recongnize the massive gap of productivity and wages today. Most don't dispute it, but argue on what to do about it.  [url=https://www.google.com/search?q=productivity and wages graph&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Of__I8ke-2f1pM%3A%2CFTR1yQfjs1_VQM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSL5u3heyjpoBSpeCL-NcAbIXwgmQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwif_IT9stznAhX2lHIEHTjdDKsQ9QEwAHoECAoQHA#imgrc=uZCcySYq3RnfaM&imgdii=citMWOYL8p8r5M]https://www.google.com/search?q=productivity and wages graph&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Of__I8ke-2f1pM%3A%2CFTR1yQfjs1_VQM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSL5u3heyjpoBSpeCL-NcAbIXwgmQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwif_IT9stznAhX2lHIEHTjdDKsQ9QEwAHoECAoQHA#imgrc=uZCcySYq3RnfaM&imgdii=citMWOYL8p8r5M[/url]

Holy shit, what a desperate and shitty attempt to justify the obvious. https://fee.org/articles/5-myths-about-income-inequality-debunked:facepalm:



Again, People are moving in and out of those different income groups. its actually dishonest to separate people into groups like that because people dont consistently have the same income throughout their lives. the "working class" will be made up of a different group of people than it is now in 5 years. it measures the increase of the groups but it doesnt measure the increase in wages of the people in the groups. thats why those comparisons should be discarded.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2016/07/16/upper-middle-class-has-more-than-doubled-since-1979/86613830/

the upper middle class in the usa has more than doubled int he usa since 1979. things are not as static as you are implying.


like you say,  the number of people or working people in the household is not constant. so it would be much more honest to use a consistent, unchanging number. per person. more women work now but its not like no women worked in the 70s. the amount of women in the workforce had already been increasing since the end of ww2. and the size of families has shrunk as well so you cant compare households from the 70s to households now.

Employee benefits have increased. see my source abut total compensation.

yes people have gone down. you people dont seem to understand that. you act like once someone has wealth, they and their family are set for life. downward mobility is an important part of mobility. and its an important part of the free market. but as we have seen from many line graphs in this thread, graphs can have dips and still be on the overall upward trajectory. and besides, stuff has to fail, thats part of conversation. look at blockbuster. its a good thing that they were out competed by improving technology. its a setback for them but overall its part of progress.

the cost of many goods have decreased. most poor people these days have tvs, fridges, stoves, ect, ect. that was not the case in the fairly recent past. free trade and entrepreneurship have made these goods available to rise our quality of life.

what costs more now than before? houses, education, healthcare. what do those things have in common? they are heavily regulated by the government. these things should be treated like other consumer goods and their price will drop like the other consumer goods that have improved our lives.




Again, it doesn't matter if people move in and out of the certain economic groups. The most important measurement is the groups to previous time periods. How is the lowest group doing in comparison to 20 years ago?  Not good.

From your link- https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2016/07/16/upper-middle-class-has-more-than-doubled-since-1979/86613830/ ; "The study found that growth in the rich and upper middle class and the declining proportion of the population in the middle and lower classes, INDICATE WIDESPREAD ECONOMIC GROWTH THAT WAS NOT DISTRIBUTED EQUALLY."

I agree that certain items are now cheaper than before, but what about the most important items? 

https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/price-to-income-ratios-are-nearing-historic-highs/

https://www.housingwire.com/articles/48891-median-rent-reaches-all-time-high/

Sure, blame the government for enriching the health insurance, pharamaceutical and health care companies for accepting the bribes from the lobbyists in those industries. You're blaming the government for giving into the wants of those industries, companies don't like any form of free markets, it's too difficult to make money.


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador]
    #26495273 - 02/20/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Puh leeze! I know it's a never ending justification of BS for BS by both sides, but the basics are that no one, and I mean no fucking person ever, needs a fucking solid gold toilet seat! You know this!It's that reasoning and justification and psych game played that got corps considered a human entity and so on.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 1
    #26495290 - 02/20/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

feldman114 said:
Quote:

  could afford to pay a kid $1000 to shovel snow or rake leaves. its not about what you can afford its about what the labour costs. and the cost of labour is set by the market.

if its paid sick days and maternity leave it has a value. all benefits have a value. it is still a cost to the employer. if you have a 70 000 salary or a 65 000 salary and 5000 in benefits its the same cost to the employer and the same benefit to the employee. It is totally dishonest to exclude benefits

If you want to argue this point you would also have to explain why disposable income or consumption percapita has also increased dramatically since the 70s.




Lol!!! You’re the one who said “if they weren’t paying for sick days, they’d be able to pay employees more”.

And once again - Read The Thread! Labor hasn’t been a free market for decades, dude. The market does NOT decide the cost of labor. The fact that minimum wage is not a livable wage is abhorrent....all things previously discussed here...read back before Poasting more disproven rhetoric....

If you earn 60k/year and get 4 weeks paid vacation time, your income is still 60k. In economics, these terms have precise definitions, but you refuse to even read the ones I linked to...very close minded of you.



what i mean is it they werent compensated by benefits they would be compensated completely in cash.

The market does decide the cost of labour. and people interfere with that by implementing a minimum wage for example which causes problems. in general, pay is determined by demand for the work and supply of workers.

switzerland has no minimim wage and it has among the hughest average wages in the world.

I was talking about hourly wages. I fucked up by saying salary. my appologies.

If you make $20 for every hour of work but you are also paid for a certain amount of days where you are sick or on vacation you ate being paid for more than just the hours you work.

for example at my work I make an hourly wage which I will not disclose and I'm also paid in lieu of benefits and vacation days. thats on top of my hourly wage. so my hourly wage is not my compensation.




Yes, if you have a very prosperous economy with a tight labor market, wages NATURALLY move higher.  Obviously, there's no need or desire for a minimum wage. The prosperity in Switzerland isn't because of the lack of a minimum wage.  :facepalm:


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Offlinefeldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador] * 1
    #26495292 - 02/20/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

susurrador said:
Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
Quote:

susurrador said:
Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
LOL, I know. :peace: The crux of the biscuit, is the apostrophe.

Who the fuck needs a lear jet and a gold toilet seat though? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say,hmmmmmm, not one motherfucking person ever!




Isn't it a pointless question though? You could go through every single person's possessions on Earth and find something they possess that they don't need.

Is that a reason to keep them from having it?




YES! If it's a fucking gold toilet seat, or a leer jet etc....no question about it, period.




You don't need the device you're communicating on right now. Is that a reason to take it from you?

Of course not.

So it has to follow the same for the gold toilet seat.

Otherwise you're suggesting that some people are to be held to different standards than other people.

That doesn't sound like equality. Isn't equality a good thing in your eyes?




Where did this idea of “taking away” come from? I said nothing about taking. Just measuring a livable wage according to well-established science.

Marketing works...can’t you at least agree to that? Any subjective definition of love has 0 bearing here. It’s about what economic conditions need to be met for a person to have the tools to seek out a mate. Every NEED has a specific definition, thanks to marketing.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: Tripsurfer] * 1
    #26495296 - 02/20/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tripsurfer said:
Increasing minmum wage would only be truely effective with a fixed maximum on prices. Having a higher income and more expensive goods doesnt really help you




So, wages moving up naturally makes goods more expensive?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: Tripsurfer] * 2
    #26495304 - 02/20/20 02:22 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tripsurfer said:
US citizens have the 3rd highest purchasing power in the world. Just slightly below the Swiss

And for some reason you find that a great injustice?



If you increase my income by 10% without making sure the things I purchase stay on the price-level from before my income increase, how does it have a positive effect on my purchasing power.

Where the money for the raise in income comes from doesnt even matter yet.

If I have just enough money to buy one loaf of bread a day, and my salary increases to the point that I can buy two loafs of bread a day, my purchasing power has increased. But this only works if the baker doesnt raise his prices.




Why would the baker hike prices in a competitive market?  You're not making any sense here at all.

The US had it's greatest economic time period when wages were strong and profit margins were smaller than today.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador] * 1
    #26495314 - 02/20/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

susurrador said:
Here's an excerpt I found regarding the EPI and their studies:

The Economic Policy Institute was founded in 1986 by Jeff Faux, who was previously the co-director of the National Center for Economic Alternatives (NCEA). As its name suggests, the NCEA specialized in offering “alternatives”—alternatives characterized as “radical” in The New York Times—to mainstream U.S. domestic policy.

NCEA‘s co-director was Gar Alperovitz, now a University of Maryland professor and author of America Beyond Capitalism. Prior to working at the NCEA, Alperovitz co-authored the essay collection Strategy and Program: Two Essays Toward a New American Socialism, where he advocated using socialist ideas to make the United States a “fairer” nation.


The problem is socialists trying to function in a capitalistic society. The system rewards hard work and good ideas as it stands. It is good motivation and can work well for anyone who works hard and/or has good ideas. You'll be steady upset and nothing will ever be right applying socialist ideals to a capitalist puzzle.

You all keep saying things like the billionaires can make less profit, but you forget that those decisions are made from the top, not the bottom. Since when does the employee tell the boss how much they're going to make? It only happens in a labor market where demand for employees is far greater than their availability.

Capitalism is easier to live with if you play by the rules.




We don't live in capitalism today, we have socialism for the very wealthy.

Do you have any understanding to what has been occurring in the financial system the past 12 years?  'Too big to fail'.


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador] * 1
    #26495321 - 02/20/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

susurrador said:
Therein lies the problem. It is completely arbitrary depending on the person you talk to.

One person needs food. The other needs a house for their 10 kids. The other needs cocaine and hookers. The other needs a yacht. The other needs to be handed everything. The other needs medical bills paid. Another person needs all of these things.

You're trying to do the job of the economy. The economy is a natural system that will make all of it's own decisions and set prices and wages and wealth caps and etc. just by operating with a fixed amount of resources.

If resources were unlimited there would be no economy because we could all have anything we wanted.




There nothing natural about fiscal, monetary, trade, currency and tax policy set by the very wealthy. Why are you so naĂŻve?  We didn't get in this scenario by accident.


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