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feldman114
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Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust 1
#26494829 - 02/20/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I was initially just planning to update the old “coir only” thread but it’s locked so...
I got hype from seeing this (prolly BS) grow: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26373143/fpart/6/vc/1#26373143
If it was true that coir is nutritious enough...the implications...So, as an experiment, I filled 4 colonized pasty plates with coir to see what’d happen. I mixed about 10-20 colonized seeds into another container, so there’s some sort of control at least.🤷🏻♂️
Anyway, after waiting 4 WEEKS for colonization, 3/5 started knotting. Another 2 weeks later, they have produced exactly 1 mushroom. Surprisingly enough, not from the “control” plate.
I’m including a couple of pics with normal cubes in the background for comparison.

This might have been a partial success, but this fruit is very obviously deficient. It felt like silk, and just look at the sickly color, stem shape, etc. here’s the kicker - it didn’t bruise blue!! I would never even know this is a cube if I saw it outside.
Oh well. Live and learn, amiright?
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Jive Ass Turkey
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494848 - 02/20/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Coir is used because it's non-nutritious. Thus making it more contam resistant. The spawn supplies all the nutrition you'll need for the grow.
You can use what ever sub you want but coir is pretty worry free and forgiving as long as you start with clean (non-trich treated) coir.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494852 - 02/20/20 10:24 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Jive Ass Turkey]
#26494858 - 02/20/20 10:27 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Lol trich-treated coir? Typo?
Anyway, the point was to see if the nutrients in coir are enough to support cubes. Because if that was the case, there would be no need to sterilize/pasteurize anything except petris.
And, as I understand, coir is used because it’s resistant to contams. It is definitely not “non-nutritious” - I grew a mushroom using coir only🤷🏻♂️. It’s just not anywhere near enough nutrients to grow efficiently.
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26494876 - 02/20/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said: If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
That doesn’t make sense either though. Contaminant spores can germinate in water, with 0 nutrients. I thought coir is resistant because the only nutritious bits are callogen? Fungi can “digest” it but molds can’t? I’m confused again...
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mushboy
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494878 - 02/20/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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cool.
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Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494883 - 02/20/20 10:36 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure most of your nutrients came from your plates. Try to inoclute coir with MS spores and then we will be thinking maybe the guys who's thread got locked was on to something. That being said coir is somewhat nutrious but I thought I remember hearing it has a bunch of ligenin or some shit which makes it contam resistant, allowing colonization if you have clean spawn. Just my thoughts.
Cool experiment though
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sh4d0ws
LSx


Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 12,086
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Sockadin]
#26494895 - 02/20/20 10:44 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I thought this thread was gonna be about how using just coir (like no verm, gypsum, etc) was a complete bust, and I was gonna show you that you are completely wrong.
Omitting grains...yeah i can see that making for some shit grows
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sh4d0ws
LSx


Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 12,086
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494899 - 02/20/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
Mateah said: If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
That doesn’t make sense either though. Contaminant spores can germinate in water, with 0 nutrients. I thought coir is resistant because the only nutritious bits are callogen? Fungi can “digest” it but molds can’t? I’m confused again...
Waht kind of contaminates you growing that can spontaneously germinate in water?
Wouldn't mold just grow in tap water left out and shit then? Am I missin somethin?
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Sockadin]
#26494902 - 02/20/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Right, ligenin, not callogen lol 
Anyway, those were coir water agar, so idk how much that matters. But now I wonder what would happen if you hydrate dry coir using saturated coir water...would that make it more nutritious?
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: sh4d0ws]
#26494909 - 02/20/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sh4d0ws said:
Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
Mateah said: If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
That doesn’t make sense either though. Contaminant spores can germinate in water, with 0 nutrients. I thought coir is resistant because the only nutritious bits are callogen? Fungi can “digest” it but molds can’t? I’m confused again...
Waht kind of contaminates you growing that can spontaneously germinate in water?
Wouldn't mold just grow in tap water left out and shit then? Am I missin somethin?
Germinate =\= grow. Cube spores germinate in water too. But not in coir.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494932 - 02/20/20 10:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
Mateah said: If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
That doesn’t make sense either though. Contaminant spores can germinate in water, with 0 nutrients. I thought coir is resistant because the only nutritious bits are callogen? Fungi can “digest” it but molds can’t? I’m confused again...
Coirs isnt considered 'contam resistent because live mold and bactera cultures cant "digest" it. Coir is safe because spores do not germinate on it due to the lsck of nutrients in the coir needed to sustain a healthy germination that can result in anything productive. Thd number of contaminant spores present in your hydrated bulk sub at any time is huge if not astronomical, but those numbers count for nothing as long as the spores dont get trapped onto a naked (uncolonized) piece of grain or other nutrient rich surface.
You are technically correct about spores being able to germinate in pure water (however unlikely) but dven if they readily did so, what would become of the live culture tyat sprang forth from that spore, it would starve to death pretty much instantley. And even if it did have energy to crawl pathetically on the coir it still wouldnt be able to do anything to fully colonized piece of grain with healthy myc.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494942 - 02/20/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Algea grows in water. There are micronutrients in all systems exposed to non sterilized air and water.
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26494947 - 02/20/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said:
Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
Mateah said: If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
That doesn’t make sense either though. Contaminant spores can germinate in water, with 0 nutrients. I thought coir is resistant because the only nutritious bits are callogen? Fungi can “digest” it but molds can’t? I’m confused again...
Coirs isnt considered 'contam resistent because live mold and bactera cultures cant "digest" it. Coir is safe because spores do not germinate on it due to the lsck of nutrients in the coir needed to sustain a healthy germination that can result in anything productive. Thd number of contaminant spores present in your hydrated bulk sub at any time is huge if not astronomical, but those numbers count for nothing as long as the spores dont get trapped onto a naked (uncolonized) piece of grain or other nutrient rich surface.
You are technically correct about spores being able to germinate in pure water (however unlikely) but dven if they readily did so, what would become of the live culture tyat sprang forth from that spore, it would starve to death pretty much instantley. And even if it did have energy to crawl pathetically on the coir it still wouldnt be able to do anything to fully colonized piece of grain with healthy myc.
Come on now, are you saying spores can’t germinate on coir, or that they germinate and “starve to death pretty much instantly”? It cant be both
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114] 1
#26494951 - 02/20/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: I was initially just planning to update the old “coir only” thread but it’s locked so...
I got hype from seeing this (prolly BS) grow: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26373143/fpart/6/vc/1#26373143
If it was true that coir is nutritious enough...the implications...So, as an experiment, I filled 4 colonized pasty plates with coir to see what’d happen. I mixed about 10-20 colonized seeds into another container, so there’s some sort of control at least.🤷🏻♂️
Anyway, after waiting 4 WEEKS for colonization, 3/5 started knotting. Another 2 weeks later, they have produced exactly 1 mushroom. Surprisingly enough, not from the “control” plate.
I’m including a couple of pics with normal cubes in the background for comparison.

This might have been a partial success, but this fruit is very obviously deficient. It felt like silk, and just look at the sickly color, stem shape, etc. here’s the kicker - it didn’t bruise blue!! I would never even know this is a cube if I saw it outside.
Oh well. Live and learn, amiright?
Operator error literally 0 to do with coir. Plain healthy spawn in good conditions performs better than your grow without using any substrate at all.
The coir isn't there to provide nutrition. The grows sucked because you used petri dishes and a few grains to make these cups. And they also could have done better anyway
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: bodhisatta]
#26494955 - 02/20/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
feldman114 said: I was initially just planning to update the old “coir only” thread but it’s locked so...
I got hype from seeing this (prolly BS) grow: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26373143/fpart/6/vc/1#26373143
If it was true that coir is nutritious enough...the implications...So, as an experiment, I filled 4 colonized pasty plates with coir to see what’d happen. I mixed about 10-20 colonized seeds into another container, so there’s some sort of control at least.🤷🏻♂️
Anyway, after waiting 4 WEEKS for colonization, 3/5 started knotting. Another 2 weeks later, they have produced exactly 1 mushroom. Surprisingly enough, not from the “control” plate.
I’m including a couple of pics with normal cubes in the background for comparison.

This might have been a partial success, but this fruit is very obviously deficient. It felt like silk, and just look at the sickly color, stem shape, etc. here’s the kicker - it didn’t bruise blue!! I would never even know this is a cube if I saw it outside.
Oh well. Live and learn, amiright?
Operator error literally 0 to do with coir. Plain healthy spawn in good conditions performs better than your grow without using any substrate at all.
The coir isn't there to provide nutrition. The grows sucked because you used petri dishes and a few grains to make these cups. And they also could have done better anyway
Miscommunication?
There’s no spawn in there, except the “control” plate.
I have no doubt they could’ve done better lol. I’m not some master mycologist. But that’s coir water agar, so how does it matter? Is the stuff that prevents germination not soluble in water?
Edited by feldman114 (02/20/20 11:14 AM)
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Sockadin]
#26494959 - 02/20/20 11:16 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Germinate=\=grow
Huge difference between what can 'germinate' and what can 'grow' on (colonize) the coir as a substrate. This is the very thing about how contamination occurs and how it spreads. That which can sustain germination and heatly growth is that which readily contaminstes when exposed to open air.
Quote:
Sockadin said: Algea grows in water. There are micronutrients in all systems exposed to non sterilized air and water.
Lots of organisms live and thrive off of micro nutrients in their environment, algae being one of them. But im pretty sure that the previous argument implied that spores can germinate in basically sterile water, which they techically can. But not even algae or evdn the most efficient organism wouldnt be able to live and be healthy in totally flat water with nothing nutritious in it at all. (lets forget about organisms that you feed on sunlight as to not confuse this topic further
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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A.k.a
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494962 - 02/20/20 11:17 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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What kind of nute levels did the plates have?
I would think putting coir ontop of a colonized plate would do pretty well
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LAGM2020     
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26494965 - 02/20/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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And yes im saying exactly that spores as a rule do not germinate on hydrated coir, thst the exact purpose of coir. Coir is basically brown water, 10% coir 90% water so whatever germinates on coir is tecnically germinating on water. And someone aöreaey mentioned tap water and mold spores and why tap wster doesn't grow momds in it,the same reason coir doesn.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/20/20 11:21 AM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494966 - 02/20/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
feldman114 said: I was initially just planning to update the old “coir only” thread but it’s locked so...
I got hype from seeing this (prolly BS) grow: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26373143/fpart/6/vc/1#26373143
If it was true that coir is nutritious enough...the implications...So, as an experiment, I filled 4 colonized pasty plates with coir to see what’d happen. I mixed about 10-20 colonized seeds into another container, so there’s some sort of control at least.🤷🏻♂️
Anyway, after waiting 4 WEEKS for colonization, 3/5 started knotting. Another 2 weeks later, they have produced exactly 1 mushroom. Surprisingly enough, not from the “control” plate.
I’m including a couple of pics with normal cubes in the background for comparison.

This might have been a partial success, but this fruit is very obviously deficient. It felt like silk, and just look at the sickly color, stem shape, etc. here’s the kicker - it didn’t bruise blue!! I would never even know this is a cube if I saw it outside.
Oh well. Live and learn, amiright?
Operator error literally 0 to do with coir. Plain healthy spawn in good conditions performs better than your grow without using any substrate at all.
The coir isn't there to provide nutrition. The grows sucked because you used petri dishes and a few grains to make these cups. And they also could have done better anyway
Miscommunication?
There’s no spawn in there, except the “control” plate.
I have no doubt they could’ve done better lol. I’m not some master mycologist. But that’s coir water agar, so how does it matter? Is the stuff that prevents germination not soluble in water?
I read it i just don't know what you were expecting. You didn't have spawn besides using petri dishes and a few grains...
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