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feldman114
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Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust 1
#26494829 - 02/20/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I was initially just planning to update the old “coir only” thread but it’s locked so...
I got hype from seeing this (prolly BS) grow: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26373143/fpart/6/vc/1#26373143
If it was true that coir is nutritious enough...the implications...So, as an experiment, I filled 4 colonized pasty plates with coir to see what’d happen. I mixed about 10-20 colonized seeds into another container, so there’s some sort of control at least.🤷🏻♂️
Anyway, after waiting 4 WEEKS for colonization, 3/5 started knotting. Another 2 weeks later, they have produced exactly 1 mushroom. Surprisingly enough, not from the “control” plate.
I’m including a couple of pics with normal cubes in the background for comparison.

This might have been a partial success, but this fruit is very obviously deficient. It felt like silk, and just look at the sickly color, stem shape, etc. here’s the kicker - it didn’t bruise blue!! I would never even know this is a cube if I saw it outside.
Oh well. Live and learn, amiright?
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Jive Ass Turkey
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494848 - 02/20/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Coir is used because it's non-nutritious. Thus making it more contam resistant. The spawn supplies all the nutrition you'll need for the grow.
You can use what ever sub you want but coir is pretty worry free and forgiving as long as you start with clean (non-trich treated) coir.
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Mateja


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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494852 - 02/20/20 10:24 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Jive Ass Turkey]
#26494858 - 02/20/20 10:27 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Lol trich-treated coir? Typo?
Anyway, the point was to see if the nutrients in coir are enough to support cubes. Because if that was the case, there would be no need to sterilize/pasteurize anything except petris.
And, as I understand, coir is used because it’s resistant to contams. It is definitely not “non-nutritious” - I grew a mushroom using coir only🤷🏻♂️. It’s just not anywhere near enough nutrients to grow efficiently.
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26494876 - 02/20/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said: If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
That doesn’t make sense either though. Contaminant spores can germinate in water, with 0 nutrients. I thought coir is resistant because the only nutritious bits are callogen? Fungi can “digest” it but molds can’t? I’m confused again...
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mushboy
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494878 - 02/20/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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cool.
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Sockadin



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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494883 - 02/20/20 10:36 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure most of your nutrients came from your plates. Try to inoclute coir with MS spores and then we will be thinking maybe the guys who's thread got locked was on to something. That being said coir is somewhat nutrious but I thought I remember hearing it has a bunch of ligenin or some shit which makes it contam resistant, allowing colonization if you have clean spawn. Just my thoughts.
Cool experiment though
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sh4d0ws
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Sockadin]
#26494895 - 02/20/20 10:44 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I thought this thread was gonna be about how using just coir (like no verm, gypsum, etc) was a complete bust, and I was gonna show you that you are completely wrong.
Omitting grains...yeah i can see that making for some shit grows
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sh4d0ws
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494899 - 02/20/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
Mateah said: If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
That doesn’t make sense either though. Contaminant spores can germinate in water, with 0 nutrients. I thought coir is resistant because the only nutritious bits are callogen? Fungi can “digest” it but molds can’t? I’m confused again...
Waht kind of contaminates you growing that can spontaneously germinate in water?
Wouldn't mold just grow in tap water left out and shit then? Am I missin somethin?
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Sockadin]
#26494902 - 02/20/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Right, ligenin, not callogen lol 
Anyway, those were coir water agar, so idk how much that matters. But now I wonder what would happen if you hydrate dry coir using saturated coir water...would that make it more nutritious?
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: sh4d0ws]
#26494909 - 02/20/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
sh4d0ws said:
Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
Mateah said: If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
That doesn’t make sense either though. Contaminant spores can germinate in water, with 0 nutrients. I thought coir is resistant because the only nutritious bits are callogen? Fungi can “digest” it but molds can’t? I’m confused again...
Waht kind of contaminates you growing that can spontaneously germinate in water?
Wouldn't mold just grow in tap water left out and shit then? Am I missin somethin?
Germinate =\= grow. Cube spores germinate in water too. But not in coir.
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Mateja


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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494932 - 02/20/20 10:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
Mateah said: If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
That doesn’t make sense either though. Contaminant spores can germinate in water, with 0 nutrients. I thought coir is resistant because the only nutritious bits are callogen? Fungi can “digest” it but molds can’t? I’m confused again...
Coirs isnt considered 'contam resistent because live mold and bactera cultures cant "digest" it. Coir is safe because spores do not germinate on it due to the lsck of nutrients in the coir needed to sustain a healthy germination that can result in anything productive. Thd number of contaminant spores present in your hydrated bulk sub at any time is huge if not astronomical, but those numbers count for nothing as long as the spores dont get trapped onto a naked (uncolonized) piece of grain or other nutrient rich surface.
You are technically correct about spores being able to germinate in pure water (however unlikely) but dven if they readily did so, what would become of the live culture tyat sprang forth from that spore, it would starve to death pretty much instantley. And even if it did have energy to crawl pathetically on the coir it still wouldnt be able to do anything to fully colonized piece of grain with healthy myc.
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Sockadin



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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494942 - 02/20/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Algea grows in water. There are micronutrients in all systems exposed to non sterilized air and water.
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26494947 - 02/20/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said:
Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
Mateah said: If coir was nutritious enough contaminant spores would be able to germinate on it and thus contaminate it every time. Coir works so well because nothing is supposed to be able to germinate on it. Live molds and cube myc can attempt a flimsy slow crawl on it but doednt get far at all without a nutrient source backing the culture like the nutrients in your agar for example, thats what enabled those cultured to colonkze and fruit somewhat.
That doesn’t make sense either though. Contaminant spores can germinate in water, with 0 nutrients. I thought coir is resistant because the only nutritious bits are callogen? Fungi can “digest” it but molds can’t? I’m confused again...
Coirs isnt considered 'contam resistent because live mold and bactera cultures cant "digest" it. Coir is safe because spores do not germinate on it due to the lsck of nutrients in the coir needed to sustain a healthy germination that can result in anything productive. Thd number of contaminant spores present in your hydrated bulk sub at any time is huge if not astronomical, but those numbers count for nothing as long as the spores dont get trapped onto a naked (uncolonized) piece of grain or other nutrient rich surface.
You are technically correct about spores being able to germinate in pure water (however unlikely) but dven if they readily did so, what would become of the live culture tyat sprang forth from that spore, it would starve to death pretty much instantley. And even if it did have energy to crawl pathetically on the coir it still wouldnt be able to do anything to fully colonized piece of grain with healthy myc.
Come on now, are you saying spores can’t germinate on coir, or that they germinate and “starve to death pretty much instantly”? It cant be both
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114] 1
#26494951 - 02/20/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: I was initially just planning to update the old “coir only” thread but it’s locked so...
I got hype from seeing this (prolly BS) grow: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26373143/fpart/6/vc/1#26373143
If it was true that coir is nutritious enough...the implications...So, as an experiment, I filled 4 colonized pasty plates with coir to see what’d happen. I mixed about 10-20 colonized seeds into another container, so there’s some sort of control at least.🤷🏻♂️
Anyway, after waiting 4 WEEKS for colonization, 3/5 started knotting. Another 2 weeks later, they have produced exactly 1 mushroom. Surprisingly enough, not from the “control” plate.
I’m including a couple of pics with normal cubes in the background for comparison.

This might have been a partial success, but this fruit is very obviously deficient. It felt like silk, and just look at the sickly color, stem shape, etc. here’s the kicker - it didn’t bruise blue!! I would never even know this is a cube if I saw it outside.
Oh well. Live and learn, amiright?
Operator error literally 0 to do with coir. Plain healthy spawn in good conditions performs better than your grow without using any substrate at all.
The coir isn't there to provide nutrition. The grows sucked because you used petri dishes and a few grains to make these cups. And they also could have done better anyway
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: bodhisatta]
#26494955 - 02/20/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
feldman114 said: I was initially just planning to update the old “coir only” thread but it’s locked so...
I got hype from seeing this (prolly BS) grow: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26373143/fpart/6/vc/1#26373143
If it was true that coir is nutritious enough...the implications...So, as an experiment, I filled 4 colonized pasty plates with coir to see what’d happen. I mixed about 10-20 colonized seeds into another container, so there’s some sort of control at least.🤷🏻♂️
Anyway, after waiting 4 WEEKS for colonization, 3/5 started knotting. Another 2 weeks later, they have produced exactly 1 mushroom. Surprisingly enough, not from the “control” plate.
I’m including a couple of pics with normal cubes in the background for comparison.

This might have been a partial success, but this fruit is very obviously deficient. It felt like silk, and just look at the sickly color, stem shape, etc. here’s the kicker - it didn’t bruise blue!! I would never even know this is a cube if I saw it outside.
Oh well. Live and learn, amiright?
Operator error literally 0 to do with coir. Plain healthy spawn in good conditions performs better than your grow without using any substrate at all.
The coir isn't there to provide nutrition. The grows sucked because you used petri dishes and a few grains to make these cups. And they also could have done better anyway
Miscommunication?
There’s no spawn in there, except the “control” plate.
I have no doubt they could’ve done better lol. I’m not some master mycologist. But that’s coir water agar, so how does it matter? Is the stuff that prevents germination not soluble in water?
Edited by feldman114 (02/20/20 11:14 AM)
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Mateja


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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Sockadin]
#26494959 - 02/20/20 11:16 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Germinate=\=grow
Huge difference between what can 'germinate' and what can 'grow' on (colonize) the coir as a substrate. This is the very thing about how contamination occurs and how it spreads. That which can sustain germination and heatly growth is that which readily contaminstes when exposed to open air.
Quote:
Sockadin said: Algea grows in water. There are micronutrients in all systems exposed to non sterilized air and water.
Lots of organisms live and thrive off of micro nutrients in their environment, algae being one of them. But im pretty sure that the previous argument implied that spores can germinate in basically sterile water, which they techically can. But not even algae or evdn the most efficient organism wouldnt be able to live and be healthy in totally flat water with nothing nutritious in it at all. (lets forget about organisms that you feed on sunlight as to not confuse this topic further
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A.k.a
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494962 - 02/20/20 11:17 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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What kind of nute levels did the plates have?
I would think putting coir ontop of a colonized plate would do pretty well
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26494965 - 02/20/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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And yes im saying exactly that spores as a rule do not germinate on hydrated coir, thst the exact purpose of coir. Coir is basically brown water, 10% coir 90% water so whatever germinates on coir is tecnically germinating on water. And someone aöreaey mentioned tap water and mold spores and why tap wster doesn't grow momds in it,the same reason coir doesn.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/20/20 11:21 AM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494966 - 02/20/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
feldman114 said: I was initially just planning to update the old “coir only” thread but it’s locked so...
I got hype from seeing this (prolly BS) grow: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26373143/fpart/6/vc/1#26373143
If it was true that coir is nutritious enough...the implications...So, as an experiment, I filled 4 colonized pasty plates with coir to see what’d happen. I mixed about 10-20 colonized seeds into another container, so there’s some sort of control at least.🤷🏻♂️
Anyway, after waiting 4 WEEKS for colonization, 3/5 started knotting. Another 2 weeks later, they have produced exactly 1 mushroom. Surprisingly enough, not from the “control” plate.
I’m including a couple of pics with normal cubes in the background for comparison.

This might have been a partial success, but this fruit is very obviously deficient. It felt like silk, and just look at the sickly color, stem shape, etc. here’s the kicker - it didn’t bruise blue!! I would never even know this is a cube if I saw it outside.
Oh well. Live and learn, amiright?
Operator error literally 0 to do with coir. Plain healthy spawn in good conditions performs better than your grow without using any substrate at all.
The coir isn't there to provide nutrition. The grows sucked because you used petri dishes and a few grains to make these cups. And they also could have done better anyway
Miscommunication?
There’s no spawn in there, except the “control” plate.
I have no doubt they could’ve done better lol. I’m not some master mycologist. But that’s coir water agar, so how does it matter? Is the stuff that prevents germination not soluble in water?
I read it i just don't know what you were expecting. You didn't have spawn besides using petri dishes and a few grains...
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mushboy
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#26494971 - 02/20/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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i think he was expecting the results he got?
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: A.k.a]
#26494973 - 02/20/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: What kind of nute levels did the plates have?
I would think putting coir ontop of a colonized plate would do pretty well
It was coir water agar so I don’t have exact numbers. I squeezed about 3/4qt of excess water out of a batch of sub - didn’t boil it down or dilute it, but it did stand in an open jar for a couple of days before I got around to freezing it, so maybe a bit more nutes than running water through coir once.
I’m gonna try the thing with hydrating coir using boiled down coir-water. Just gotta figure out the parameters. Running a controlled experiment is a bitch lol...this one wasn’t even close.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: mushboy]
#26494974 - 02/20/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Idk where he got the idea of coir being nutritional enough. A bunch of people have been doing coir only grows. They just use spawn. Coir on its own with no spawn is going to work just as well as trying to use manure without spawn.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: mushboy]
#26494981 - 02/20/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I love seeing experiments in MC, im all for it, and it was technically a successful experiment 
And the success part of it is potentially if we evetually mske sense of this coir-germination discussion/confusion
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: bodhisatta]
#26494984 - 02/20/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Idk where he got the idea of coir being nutritional enough. A bunch of people have been doing coir only grows. They just use spawn. Coir on its own with no spawn is going to work just as well as trying to use manure without spawn.
 I’m so confused right now. Isn’t manure nutritious? God I’m dumb. It’s Back to reading for me.
As for why I did this... I guess I was just holding out hope that the dude in the other thread was only 99% wrong lol. Like, if I could get even 1/10th of normal yields from a tub full of coir, that would have big implications (in my mind). Mostly I was just fucking around tbh
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Mateja


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Posts: 7,948
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26494998 - 02/20/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
A.k.a said: What kind of nute levels did the plates have?
I would think putting coir ontop of a colonized plate would do pretty well
It was coir water agar so I don’t have exact numbers. I squeezed about 3/4qt of excess water out of a batch of sub - didn’t boil it down or dilute it, but it did stand in an open jar for a couple of days before I got around to freezing it, so maybe a bit more nutes than running water through coir once.
I’m gonna try the thing with hydrating coir using boiled down coir-water. Just gotta figure out the parameters. Running a controlled experiment is a bitch lol...this one wasn’t even close.
Heres a tip for your next experiment: in case youre looking to confirm or deny the notion that coir is nutritional enough to sustain enough so called 'trouble' then your best option is to try and collect a 'rich' boil off water from the coir and use that as a LC broth. See if spores can germinate and grow in that medium and if it can sustain life to a degree. Reason i mention using coir water as LC broth is from experience i know that organisms can thrive off of minute nutrient levels such as 0.1% while 0.1% nutritious agar puck for exsmple wouldnt be able to provide for a healthy growth. (the same goes for 0.1% nutrient rich coir based substrates) hope you at least understand what im generally getting at and what im suggesting in term of experiments
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26495017 - 02/20/20 11:55 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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People have made coir water LCs though. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14196946#14196946
I get what you’re saying. You just had me confused back there because you said spores need nutrients to germinate. I’m thinking I’ll get together about 6qts of coir water, boil it down to 3, and use that to hydrate a fresh brick. Or is that not enough of a nutrient boost?
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Mateja


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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26495068 - 02/20/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok give me one chance to confuse you back to clarity 
But... Spores DO need sufficient nutrient levels to be able to germinate 'SUCCESSFULLY' into that which we conceptualize as the kind of 'germination' that matters. (in this cases 'germination' as we speak of it would imply contaminant spores that not only readily germinate on a given substrate but also will colonize successfully thus posing a sufficient threat to the development of the desired mushroom culture. Thats what I called 'trouble enough' earlier.
So lets forget about the general textbook definition of 'germination' and lets focus instead on contaminant spores that gain foothold and wreac havoc on a predictable level/basis and not just sporadically and inconsistently.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26495083 - 02/20/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Idk where he got the idea of coir being nutritional enough. A bunch of people have been doing coir only grows. They just use spawn. Coir on its own with no spawn is going to work just as well as trying to use manure without spawn.
 I’m so confused right now. Isn’t manure nutritious? God I’m dumb. It’s Back to reading for me.
As for why I did this... I guess I was just holding out hope that the dude in the other thread was only 99% wrong lol. Like, if I could get even 1/10th of normal yields from a tub full of coir, that would have big implications (in my mind). Mostly I was just fucking around tbh
Don't worry about nutritional or not. Worry about what works.
Coir is nutritional to some organisms and not to others. Manure is obviously nutritional.
Trying to grow on manure without spawn doesn't work well unless you're farmer with a field of cows. Trying to grow on coir with no to little spawn will work the same. It won't work
Add spawn to coir or manure substrate you'll be able to judge your yields based of the amount of spawn you used without taking into account substrate.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26495120 - 02/20/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Lots of bacterial spores germinste (I presume) on different nutrient based mediums but unless environmental conditions are sufficient to provide for meaningful growth (bacteria for exsmple must have standing water or in the least very wet/damp climate in its environment for the live bacteria culture to be able to thrive or expand at all. So bacterial contsminations are very dofferent from mold. Different in their respective abilities to germinste and to colonize since they demand different environments for optimal growth.
All of this hopefully useful (and without misinformation) shit I post isnt necessarily supoosed to mske sense r7ght swsy but rather you csn use it as genral and basic pointers.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/20/20 12:45 PM)
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: bodhisatta]
#26495139 - 02/20/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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.Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
feldman114 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Idk where he got the idea of coir being nutritional enough. A bunch of people have been doing coir only grows. They just use spawn. Coir on its own with no spawn is going to work just as well as trying to use manure without spawn.
 I’m so confused right now. Isn’t manure nutritious? God I’m dumb. It’s Back to reading for me.
As for why I did this... I guess I was just holding out hope that the dude in the other thread was only 99% wrong lol. Like, if I could get even 1/10th of normal yields from a tub full of coir, that would have big implications (in my mind). Mostly I was just fucking around tbh
Don't worry about nutritional or not. Worry about what works.
Coir is nutritional to some organisms and not to others. Manure is obviously nutritional.
Trying to grow on manure without spawn doesn't work well unless you're farmer with a field of cows. Trying to grow on coir with no to little spawn will work the same. It won't work
Add spawn to coir or manure substrate you'll be able to judge your yields based of the amount of spawn you used without taking into account substrate.
Okay, so the nutes in coir and manure aren’t biologically available to cube myc. But does using spawn make them more available (or make the myc strong enough to “digest” it)? Or is grain spawn always the only source of nutes?
Heres what I’m really wondering - if we add nutrients to coir, will it remain somewhat resistant? And if so, does it have to be coir-based nutes? Can I hydrate coir with grain water and depend on some level of resistance to contams? (I assume grain water can substitute grain?)
Sorry for the game of 100 questions, but specific questions like this are pretty much impossible to find via the search bar.
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Jive Ass Turkey
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114] 2
#26495163 - 02/20/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Lol trich-treated coir? Typo?
2000+ posts and you sound quite noobish.
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Mateja


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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26495167 - 02/20/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Theres no chance grain water can substitute grain as the main source of nutes. Grain water doesnt exceed 2% nutrient concentration if I remember Bods 3 yesr old posts correctly (he tested grain water at work I believe) to compare tha5 to the rest of the 98% is of course a huge difference. Dont expect mlre than a handful of fruits off of gallons of grain water (I would estimate thid of course on no grounds whatsoever except maybe my average level intelligence predicktions agsin based on nothing but intuition and ineffable knowledge)
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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mushboy
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Jive Ass Turkey] 1
#26495174 - 02/20/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jive Ass Turkey said:
Quote:
feldman114 said: Lol trich-treated coir? Typo?
2000+ posts and you sound quite noobish.
You should read my posts.
Dont be such a jive turkey, turkey
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Mateja


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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26495179 - 02/20/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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And then theres the fact that a mushroom culture doesnt utilise more than a fraction/fraction and a half of the grains spawned so that that into a consideration as well. Probably better nutrient availability in a solution than in a substrate but then again even the >2% nutes in the solution would be mostly unavailable to the orgsnism during its short life cycle of fruiting.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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Jive Ass Turkey
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26495194 - 02/20/20 01:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
You should read my posts.
Dont be such a jive turkey, turkey
why would I need to read your post when I can read product descriptions?
Do you own search and find out. you've been here long enough.
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26495196 - 02/20/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said: Theres no chance grain water can substitute grain as the main source of nutes. Grain water doesnt exceed 2% nutrient concentration if I remember Bods 3 yesr old posts correctly (he tested grain water at work I believe) to compare tha5 to the rest of the 98% is of course a huge difference. Dont expect mlre than a handful of fruits off of gallons of grain water (I would estimate thid of course on no grounds whatsoever except maybe my average level intelligence predicktions agsin based on nothing but intuition and ineffable knowledge) 
Why is 2% is the maximum? You mean if I try to boil it down for concentration the nutes solidify? Evaporate? Really asking.
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Jive Ass Turkey]
#26495250 - 02/20/20 01:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jive Ass Turkey said:
Quote:
You should read my posts.
Dont be such a jive turkey, turkey
why would I need to read your post when I can read product descriptions?
Do you own search and find out. you've been here long enough.
Guess I was quick to judge the term, though the poaster who brought it up seems to have taken no offense at my mistake. Still not sure why it’s called that. I googled it, and it seems coir and trich coexist in nature, so it gets sterilized for industrial uses. Not treated with trich or treated with some anti-trich chemicals - just sterilized. Am I missing something?
Here’s RR saying you can use un-trich-treated coir if you pasteurize it. Couldn’t find any specific info on the process. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14766846#14766846
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26495278 - 02/20/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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They add trich to coir for gardening. It germinates on the plant roots and forms a symbiosis
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cronicr



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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114] 1
#26495283 - 02/20/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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coir is about as nutritious for fungi as manure but it's also super salty ( lick some it's gross) which is why spores don't like to germinate on it and it can be used as door mats and it's added to brands for plants to use but doesn't effect us. grain is our nute source plain and simple, bulk is our water our texture and our cheap ingredient. the original poster was caught with his foot in his mouth when he posted pics with obvious grain spawn in his substrate, people love short cuts and that won't change so growing in uncle Ben's and using a microwave or skipping pasturizing and ommiting shit will always bring a certain appeal to lazy growers.
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feldman114
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: cronicr]
#26495346 - 02/20/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: They add trich to coir for gardening. It germinates on the plant roots and forms a symbiosis
Oh, okay, like the hydro store stuff is treated, but not the snake bedding.
Quote:
cronicr said: coir is about as nutritious for fungi as manure but it's also super salty ( lick some it's gross) which is why spores don't like to germinate on it and it can be used as door mats and it's added to brands for plants to use but doesn't effect us. grain is our nute source plain and simple, bulk is our water our texture and our cheap ingredient. the original poster was caught with his foot in his mouth when he posted pics with obvious grain spawn in his substrate, people love short cuts and that won't change so growing in uncle Ben's and using a microwave or skipping pasturizing and ommiting shit will always bring a certain appeal to lazy growers.
Thanks, I know it’s been said, but it’s nice to see a definitive answer. I wish I wasn’t so OCD...cause now I’m gonna HAVE to lick some coir
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Tormato  
The Goddess Kali Meh 😛




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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: feldman114]
#26495421 - 02/20/20 03:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: I wish I wasn’t so OCD...cause now I’m gonna HAVE to lick some coir
-------------------- Helpful Threads The Shroomery Store Tormato's Q&A Thread Post Questions Here or PM me! "Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been." ~ Grateful Dead Before you start...Do you have a Pressure Cooker and a Dehydrator? I highly recommend getting both!
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Mateja


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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Tormato]
#26495503 - 02/20/20 03:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Licking the coir is definitely one sure way to finally find out that its not salted at all like everyone's been parroting for the last decade but in fact its sweetened, but wed never even have a clue sbout it until someone unexpectedly put the theories to the test and ate some dirt for the benefit of the community  I view this parody scenario as one of those typical forum debunknings things that actually are a vital part of the whole thing.
Its fascinating how much there is still to be observed and documented, questions that are hypothesized daily or at least weekly in MC and testing the specific theories im thinking about right now is almost easier than testing pH level in a glass of water with a stick, and still no one has ever managed to document a side by side to confirm or refute this topic thats so often discussed (Im working on 2-3 different side by sides, and one of them might very well be one of those couple decades parroted but never tested bizarness
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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cronicr



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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Mateja]
#26495558 - 02/20/20 04:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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as far as I know even the dark brown coir is retted in fresh water with salt added, white coir is retted for up to ten months with salt water. I've tasted it and it's surely not fucking sweet lol.
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: cronicr]
#26495771 - 02/20/20 06:08 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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as cron and bod said:
the the SPAWN is what supplies the nutrition for the most part, especially in a coir grow. Bulk substrate, especially coir, is primarily there to provide water
keep in mind that cubes are 90% water, which is why you will get better yields off of a bulk sub than the same amount of straight grain. the grain can only hold so much water on its own
not to confuse anyone, but regarding the "manure without spawn" stuff, people in the Pan thread have been having lots of success going from LC to sterilized bulk manure-based substrate in a grow bag. i was surprised to find this out.. but i wouldnt expect the same to work with straight coir, since that would be kinda missing the point of using coir in the first place.
dammit... now im gonna have to taste some coir lol
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Edited by c10h12n2o (02/20/20 06:10 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: c10h12n2o]
#26495774 - 02/20/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Given how many shrooms and the size of what can grow off a single piece of grain or a thimble of substrate or the residue inside a grain jar i wouldn't really be surprised if even still the LC itself had a lot to do with the performance of those grows.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: bodhisatta]
#26495775 - 02/20/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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great point
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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cronicr



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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: c10h12n2o] 1
#26495793 - 02/20/20 06:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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pans don't need a lot of nutrition to start with , teeny little mushrooms and low bio efficiency, most manure used is from grain fed animals anyway
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: cronicr]
#26495846 - 02/20/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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definitely. frustratingly low....
thats why i was hesitant to even mention it, i just thought it was interesting to see people doing pans that way with good success.
in any case, im still using grainspawn for my pan projects
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Sockadin



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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: c10h12n2o]
#26495880 - 02/20/20 07:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've done pans on jars based on grain/straw/manure. That's not new. Just used screw on pp5 containers. Found some pictures of some Pan I did on my camera I forgot about but can't find the damn upload cable.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Surprise!! Coir ONLY is a Complete Bust [Re: Sockadin]
#26495924 - 02/20/20 07:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's not what I was referring to
I meant the pan grows where people dont use grains at all, and inoculate bags of manure substrate directly with an LC
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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