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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Ethanol extraction
    #26494605 - 02/20/20 08:00 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Is it possible to extract active alkaloids in 190 prof alcohol? I am getting mixed opinions on the solubility of actives in ethanol. Some say it's highly soluble and others say barely. I heard that making an alcohol extract can make body load and stomach upset more manageable plus I just thought it'd be cool to turn a ounce into a few ML's...


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26494607 - 02/20/20 08:01 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think making strong tea and then freezing it into ice cubes is the most efficient.


--------------------
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That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: The Mycologist]
    #26494624 - 02/20/20 08:09 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Mycologist said:
I think making strong tea and then freezing it into ice cubes is the most efficient.




But I heard that an ethanol extraction can avoid many of the nasties that contribute to stomach discomfort and bodyload....any merit to that?


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26494630 - 02/20/20 08:13 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No

The actives are water soluble. Like dissolves like (Polar dissolves polar). They wont dissolve in alcohol(non polar).

Have you tried tea? I have a week stomach and the tea was my saving grace.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20712738


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
:acidfire::tmckenna:


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: The Mycologist]
    #26494687 - 02/20/20 08:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Mycologist said:
No

The actives are water soluble. Like dissolves like (Polar dissolves polar). They wont dissolve in alcohol(non polar).

Have you tried tea? I have a week stomach and the tea was my saving grace.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20712738





Yeah tea is how I roll man... Ever since I grew my own batch I only ate them once and that was fresh which gave me the most annoying stomach discomfort, tea has been better but it's still there.

I just felt boiling mushrooms would result in way more other stuff getting dissolved along with the actives compared to just letting the fungus sit in ethanol for a couple weeks with no boiling...this was just what I've read on mycotopia though.

So lets say you take an 30 Grams and make some tea with it...how concentrated can I boil it down to? Also could I add just enough ethanol to the tea to stop it from freezing so that I can just store it all together and draw up as many MLs as I need with out thawing it? That whole concept with the ethanol sounded pretty inviting too.

Would mushroom tea mixed with alcohol stored in the freezer but not frozen still be preserved?


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Offlineiwh678
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: The Mycologist] * 2
    #26494776 - 02/20/20 09:28 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Mycologist said:
No

The actives are water soluble. Like dissolves like (Polar dissolves polar). They wont dissolve in alcohol(non polar).

Have you tried tea? I have a week stomach and the tea was my saving grace.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20712738




Ethanol is a very polar molecule. Its a small molecule with a hydroxyl group on one side. That's about as polar as it gets.

Ethanol extractions work well.


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: iwh678]
    #26494793 - 02/20/20 09:41 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iwh678 said:
Quote:

The Mycologist said:
No

The actives are water soluble. Like dissolves like (Polar dissolves polar). They wont dissolve in alcohol(non polar).

Have you tried tea? I have a week stomach and the tea was my saving grace.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20712738




Ethanol is a very polar molecule. Its a small molecule with a hydroxyl group on one side. That's about as polar as it gets.

Ethanol extractions work well.




See this is what I mean lol You ask 10 people and you get 15 different opinions...

Ok so if I do go the ethanol route should I heat it ? Just let it sit at room temp? How long?  BTW have you actually done this with everclear ? your speaking from experience I assume?

TIA


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Offlineiwh678
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26494820 - 02/20/20 10:03 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You can also ask 10 different people if ethanol is polar and apparently you will get different answers. That doesn't mean there's actually any debate there.

I don't extract my shrooms because I've never had any issues just consuming them outright.

But its an extraction. It works just like any other extraction. You can heat it up, that will cause the extraction to occur faster, but it will also cause the ethanol to evaporate so I wouldn't recommend it. I would powder, add to the ethanol and let it sit for a couple days, giving it a shake every now and then. Then strain it. That should give plenty of time for the extraction to occur.


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: iwh678]
    #26494825 - 02/20/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iwh678 said:
You can also ask 10 different people if ethanol is polar and apparently you will get different answers. That doesn't mean there's actually any debate there.

I don't extract my shrooms because I've never had any issues just consuming them outright.

But its an extraction. It works just like any other extraction. You can heat it up, that will cause the extraction to occur faster, but it will also cause the ethanol to evaporate so I wouldn't recommend it. I would powder, add to the ethanol and let it sit for a couple days, giving it a shake every now and then. Then strain it. That should give plenty of time for the extraction to occur.




No offense bro but I would feel better if I heard from someone who has done this before I drop an oz in some booze....I guess I could always try it out with one dose first and see for myself but I'm not trying to dose atm...Just want to consolidate my stash...


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26494952 - 02/20/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Well I was wrong about the polarity so crap.

I read that ethanol caused issues, but now I cant remember the reasoning.


I know that tea works, so theres that.


Mixed ethanol would probably settle out tho.


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
:acidfire::tmckenna:


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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: The Mycologist]
    #26495067 - 02/20/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Supposedly there's both water and ethenol soluble compounds. I would imagine soaking them in like youkon jack might work, strained of course


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: tramalot]
    #26495322 - 02/20/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

tramalot said:
Supposedly there's both water and ethenol soluble compounds. I would imagine soaking them in like youkon jack might work, strained of course




Right, this is what I'm saying. Supposedly a lot of the components of the mushroom that cause the discomfort are soluble in water but not ethanol so doing an ethanol extraction can avoid them all together...Maybe not completely because there is some water in ever clear, but certainly less water solubles than if you were making tea...

Probably just hippy science though...I guess I'm just gonna have to buy a bottle of everclear and try it with a single dose to see what happens...


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Offlineiwh678
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: The Mycologist]
    #26495501 - 02/20/20 03:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Mycologist said:
Well I was wrong about the polarity so crap.

I read that ethanol caused issues, but now I cant remember the reasoning.


I know that tea works, so theres that.


Mixed ethanol would probably settle out tho.




What do you mean mixed ethanol? Like with water? The alcohol is a solute so it doesn't settle out, just like salt doesn't settle out of the ocean.

Quote:

SpunkyMonkey88 said:
Quote:

tramalot said:
Supposedly there's both water and ethenol soluble compounds. I would imagine soaking them in like youkon jack might work, strained of course




Right, this is what I'm saying. Supposedly a lot of the components of the mushroom that cause the discomfort are soluble in water but not ethanol so doing an ethanol extraction can avoid them all together...Maybe not completely because there is some water in ever clear, but certainly less water solubles than if you were making tea...

Probably just hippy science though...I guess I'm just gonna have to buy a bottle of everclear and try it with a single dose to see what happens...





Most stomach discomfort comes from undigestable chitin in the cell walls. This is removed by both water and ethanol extractions. The rest of the stomach discomfort is a result of psychedelics interacting with some of the same receptors that cause motion sickness. The effect of this varies person to person just like motion/sea sickness.


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: iwh678]
    #26495539 - 02/20/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iwh678 said:
Quote:

The Mycologist said:
Well I was wrong about the polarity so crap.

I read that ethanol caused issues, but now I cant remember the reasoning.


I know that tea works, so theres that.


Mixed ethanol would probably settle out tho.




What do you mean mixed ethanol? Like with water? The alcohol is a solute so it doesn't settle out, just like salt doesn't settle out of the ocean.

Quote:

SpunkyMonkey88 said:
Quote:

tramalot said:
Supposedly there's both water and ethenol soluble compounds. I would imagine soaking them in like youkon jack might work, strained of course




Right, this is what I'm saying. Supposedly a lot of the components of the mushroom that cause the discomfort are soluble in water but not ethanol so doing an ethanol extraction can avoid them all together...Maybe not completely because there is some water in ever clear, but certainly less water solubles than if you were making tea...

Probably just hippy science though...I guess I'm just gonna have to buy a bottle of everclear and try it with a single dose to see what happens...





Most stomach discomfort comes from undigestable chitin in the cell walls. This is removed by both water and ethanol extractions. The rest of the stomach discomfort is a result of psychedelics interacting with some of the same receptors that cause motion sickness. The effect of this varies person to person just like motion/sea sickness.




So basically you're saying that an alcohol extraction is no different than a water extract (tea)?

would adding enough alcohol to my tea concentrate to keep it liquid in the freezer affect the preservation of the alkaloids?


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InvisibleDarkslide
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26495627 - 02/20/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.fanaticus.com/mycoalki.htm

It works. Ethanol, Everclear.. cheap vodka for that matter. It definitely smooths out the ride. Speaking from many years of personal experience.
Just don't be deceived about the crystals. They are not 100% magic. A portion is carbohydrates. At least that was the conclusion in old debates. Either way. It works.
Heating is not required but give it more time to extract. You can heat, but be extra careful when heating any solvents. No open flames, double boilers are preferable. My Soxhlet extractor did a pretty good job at about 115 deg F. I use a Fondu pot for that temp :lol:


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: Darkslide]
    #26495693 - 02/20/20 05:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Darkslide said:
http://www.fanaticus.com/mycoalki.htm

It works. Ethanol, Everclear.. cheap vodka for that matter. It definitely smooths out the ride. Speaking from many years of personal experience.
Just don't be deceived about the crystals. They are not 100% magic. A portion is carbohydrates. At least that was the conclusion in old debates. Either way. It works.
Heating is not required but give it more time to extract. You can heat, but be extra careful when heating any solvents. No open flames, double boilers are preferable. My Soxhlet extractor did a pretty good job at about 115 deg F. I use a Fondu pot for that temp :lol:




Wouldn't using vodka essentially be making tea? It's more than 50% water, doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of using ethanol?


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Offlineiwh678
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26495717 - 02/20/20 05:41 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No ethanol is more stable and prevents growth of bacteria and other nasties. I personally use something closer to 70-80% though.


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InvisibleDarkslide
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: iwh678]
    #26495877 - 02/20/20 06:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah vodka is not preferred but it does form crystals to an extent. Otherwise it's mostly a nasty tasting tea. Ever clear is far more efficient.


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: Darkslide]
    #26497061 - 02/21/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Ok well I went ahead and bought a liter of everclear but before I do this I wanted to know what is the verdict on how long they should sit in the ethanol for, if I'm not heating it up?


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InvisibleDarkslide
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26498521 - 02/22/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SpunkyMonkey88 said:
Ok well I went ahead and bought a liter of everclear but before I do this I wanted to know what is the verdict on how long they should sit in the ethanol for, if I'm not heating it up?




Stamets notes about three days which I'd say is fairly accurate as a minimum. You can let it go much longer.. not that it's needed, but I was comfortable with a week. I'd recommend keeping the crystals in the liquid after straining out the muck. Keeps them from contacting air which will break them down eventually. The entire mix can be stored in the freezer for a very long time.


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: Darkslide]
    #26498792 - 02/22/20 05:23 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Darkslide said:
Quote:

SpunkyMonkey88 said:
Ok well I went ahead and bought a liter of everclear but before I do this I wanted to know what is the verdict on how long they should sit in the ethanol for, if I'm not heating it up?




Stamets notes about three days which I'd say is fairly accurate as a minimum. You can let it go much longer.. not that it's needed, but I was comfortable with a week. I'd recommend keeping the crystals in the liquid after straining out the muck. Keeps them from contacting air which will break them down eventually. The entire mix can be stored in the freezer for a very long time.




Ok sounds good thanks for that, I'm going to shoot for a week... Also I forgot to ask how much ethanol per gram?


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InvisibleDarkslide
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26498825 - 02/22/20 05:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Enough to cover all the material with about a half inch to spare for evaporation.  You'll likely lose a little while it sits. Even with a lid.
I would also recommend dividing the doses while everything is in liquid.  Shake it like you hate it between every pour.
I tried a scoop of crystals once and took way too much. :eek: It's easy to do.


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Offlineendlessnessagain
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: Darkslide] * 1
    #26499427 - 02/23/20 05:19 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Instead of worrying about different opinions, ask for sources.


Psilocybin is slightly soluble (“difficultly”) in ethanol (Merck index), or practically insoluble in ethanol (Hofmann et al 1958)
Psilocybin is readily water soluble. Hofmann 1971

Psilocin is soluble in ethanol (Clarke’s 1986)
Psilocin is very slightly ("Difficultly") soluble in water (Merck Index)
Psilocin is unstable in solution (Merck Index)

In other words, using ethanol would not work very well to extract psilocybin unless you had a certain amount of water mixed in. There is no test AFAIK of what is the ideal amount of water to be mixed in with the ethanol, but anecdotal evidence shows vodka works. Too little ethanol and too much water could potentially make psilocybin degrade faster (possibly due to more concentrated ethanol inactivating enzymes that dephosphorylate psilocybin?),  but too much ethanol would not dissolve well psilocybin.

And extracting psilocin isn't really wanted because it is so unstable.

Hope that helps.


Edited by endlessnessagain (02/23/20 05:21 AM)


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: endlessnessagain]
    #26499511 - 02/23/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

endlessnessagain said:
Instead of worrying about different opinions, ask for sources.


Psilocybin is slightly soluble (“difficultly”) in ethanol (Merck index), or practically insoluble in ethanol (Hofmann et al 1958)
Psilocybin is readily water soluble. Hofmann 1971

Psilocin is soluble in ethanol (Clarke’s 1986)
Psilocin is very slightly ("Difficultly") soluble in water (Merck Index)
Psilocin is unstable in solution (Merck Index)

In other words, using ethanol would not work very well to extract psilocybin unless you had a certain amount of water mixed in. There is no test AFAIK of what is the ideal amount of water to be mixed in with the ethanol, but anecdotal evidence shows vodka works. Too little ethanol and too much water could potentially make psilocybin degrade faster (possibly due to more concentrated ethanol inactivating enzymes that dephosphorylate psilocybin?),  but too much ethanol would not dissolve well psilocybin.

And extracting psilocin isn't really wanted because it is so unstable.

Hope that helps.




Yeah dude I've googled "solubility of of psilocybin and psilocin" too... But there seems to be soo much conflicting experience reports so I thought I'd ask here...

I am just currently soaking an 8 gram single dose to test this method... if it works, sweet if not what ever it's just 8grams...


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InvisibleDarkslide
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26509734 - 02/29/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Should be just about ready :biggrin:
I think you'll find the Everclear to work the best. It seems to have just the right amount of water and alcohol. In the link I provided earlier 
http://www.fanaticus.com/mycoalki.htm
you'll note some reports from some extremely reliable sources. Several of which are old friends so I trust their opinions and reports. Most notably RR (under his Mycotopia spelling), Soliver, Hippie3 (RIP), Shedthemonkey and Suckerfree. Check out who SF wrote the letter to. There's more to that convo, but it's tucked away in a Mod forum.

but nothing speaks better than personal experience.. so hit it man! :hehehe:


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: Darkslide]
    #26510798 - 03/01/20 05:26 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Darkslide said:
Should be just about ready :biggrin:
I think you'll find the Everclear to work the best. It seems to have just the right amount of water and alcohol. In the link I provided earlier 
http://www.fanaticus.com/mycoalki.htm
you'll note some reports from some extremely reliable sources. Several of which are old friends so I trust their opinions and reports. Most notably RR (under his Mycotopia spelling), Soliver, Hippie3 (RIP), Shedthemonkey and Suckerfree. Check out who SF wrote the letter to. There's more to that convo, but it's tucked away in a Mod forum.

but nothing speaks better than personal experience.. so hit it man! :hehehe:



Quote:

Darkslide said:
Should be just about ready :biggrin:
I think you'll find the Everclear to work the best. It seems to have just the right amount of water and alcohol. In the link I provided earlier 
http://www.fanaticus.com/mycoalki.htm
you'll note some reports from some extremely reliable sources. Several of which are old friends so I trust their opinions and reports. Most notably RR (under his Mycotopia spelling), Soliver, Hippie3 (RIP), Shedthemonkey and Suckerfree. Check out who SF wrote the letter to. There's more to that convo, but it's tucked away in a Mod forum.

but nothing speaks better than personal experience.. so hit it man! :hehehe:



Yaup I  soaked 10 gs for about 5 days strained and filtered it then I filtered it and soaked it in everclear  again but boiled it for a few hours this time then I combined the 2 and boiled it down to 10 mls.. it was the cleanest trip I had ever had! Absolutely no regrets! I needed it to, cus I  feel like my last 5 experiences have been ruined by unbearable body loads and stomach discomfort. There was seriously none of that with this! I am a believer.

So I wonder though is it the 5% water in the ever clear doing the heavy lifting because everything I read says psilocin and psilocybin are not soluble in ethanol but ever clear obviously works just fine...


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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26510824 - 03/01/20 05:53 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

:highfive:


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InvisibleSpunkyMonkey88
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: Darkslide]
    #26515320 - 03/03/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

So whats the deal with the sugars/starches that dissipate? I know they are not actually psilo crystals...so if I did a cold filter  to get them out of the jar do you think I would be loosing a significant amount of actives? Is it possible for psilo to settle and sit among the sugar crystals at the bottom of the jar?

Does that make any sense?


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OfflineMurderByNumbers
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26521691 - 03/07/20 06:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)



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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: MurderByNumbers]
    #26523624 - 03/08/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Not sure why you referenced that page, it has nothing to do with making an extract at least from what I gathered by browsing at it...

But anyway I decided to make a tincture with the rest of my fungus. I have 40 grams sitting in ethanol right now and has been in there for more than 5 days. My plan was to boil the concoction in a double boiler today, then filter it and repeat. But instead of letting the pulp sit for another 5 days I was going to boil it for 2 hrs. I did this last time and it worked well.

I would like to filter out those “crystals” that settle at the bottom IF they aren’t active... I would hate to loose any actives though so does anyone know for certain that I wouldn’t loose much psilocybin by cold filtering out those crystals and then running a few hundred mls of ethanol  afterwards to get anything left behind in the filter... How significant of a loss would I take by doing it this way?


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InvisibleDarkslide
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26523717 - 03/08/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not a chemist, but my guess is the magic is bound in the crystals.. whatever they are, and floating freely in the solvent.  Before the crystal debate people, including myself, were scooping the crystals out and munching on them. Very crunchy. Don't chew if you value your teeth. :lol:
However, one could also drink the blue juice leaving the crystals in the bottom achieving the same effect. 
I finally left it at a good evap reduction and made it a point to shake the mixture before divided doses. 
You can sep the crystals but they loose potency fairly fast. Most likely oxidation.  I've always found it better to cover them in reduced solvent and store in the freezer.
Funny story there.  When they bashed in PF's door and searched his house, one of the searchers pulled the jar out of the freezer and put it back not knowing what it was.  :rofl:


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OfflineMurderByNumbers
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: SpunkyMonkey88]
    #26526491 - 03/10/20 01:33 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SpunkyMonkey88 said:
Not sure why you referenced that page, it has nothing to do with making an extract at least from what I gathered by browsing at it...





It lists multiple species and their measured concentrations of psilocybin and psilocin. (dry)

It lists out methods of preservation, extraction, % of actives extracted, conditions stored at, how long, degradation over time, etc.


Edited by MurderByNumbers (03/10/20 01:33 AM)


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Offlinepoisoned
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Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: MurderByNumbers]
    #26554821 - 03/24/20 10:03 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I'm making shroom moonshine every year for festivals. I usually use some moonshine that's at around 45% and just let the shrooms soak in that. Then add some lemons and sugar, so that thing can pass as "limoncello".

I'm usually aiming to get 1gram/shot. Does it work as good as 1g of shrooms? I don't think so, but when you have plenty of shrooms, it doesn't matter that much.


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InvisibleReverendMyc

Registered: 03/29/19
Posts: 1,496
Re: Ethanol extraction [Re: poisoned]
    #26575416 - 04/03/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Hey SpunkyMonkey

Congrats on a successful first run. I have a solid Green Dragon recipe that I have used to extract pot in Everclear or 151 rum (Everclear is way more effective). So I am looking forward to experimenting with psilocybin to perfect another recipe. It looks like you used 10 grams of mushies in your first run. Was that fresh or dried? Fresh seems low and dried seems very high if you did the whole thing in one trip. Or possibly the psilocybin transfer from solids to liquid was not complete. So did you do the full 10 grams of dried in one go? Was it the equivalent of a ten gram trip? (Which I have no frame of reference for, by the way.)

I always used a double boiler for my dragon recipe. Keeping the temperature precisely was always paramount. The most efficient transfer of thc to ethanol takes place around 155 to 160 degrees Fahrenheit. But ethanol boils at 170 f so you really need to watch it closely. Now I have a water bath and Pyrex media jars, so I am looking forward to the next batches and trials.


Did you ever get to test crystal extraction?

Thanks for being a pioneer.


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LAGM 2.024
Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any more
How to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice.
Don't Panic




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