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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson

Registered: 01/11/15
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
#26493580 - 02/19/20 03:08 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: You said: 1. Labor is a free market. 2. Mandated employee benefits count as income.
I’ve simply been refuting these 2 falsehoods. Not outraged, really.
No.
I said the cost of labour is determined by the market. I didn't say that wasn't also interfered with by government.
I said it's dishonest to look at only income rather than total compensation.
Can you just approach this conversation with a bit of honesty?
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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26493590 - 02/19/20 03:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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You’re saying the same thing in different words.
If government interferes in a market, it is NOT a free market. The cost of labor is NOT determined by the market. Very simple stuff....
Again, “total compensation” isn’t a term used in economics. It’s used in conservative rhetoric. “Income” has a CLEAR DEFINITION, and sick time is not included in it. Super simple.
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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson

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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
#26493599 - 02/19/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: You’re saying the same thing in different words.
If government interferes in a market, it is NOT a free market. The cost of labor is NOT determined by the market. Very simple stuff....
Again, “total compensation” isn’t a term used in economics. It’s used in conservative rhetoric. “Income” has a CLEAR DEFINITION, and sick time is not included in it. Super simple.
I'm not saying it's a totally free market. are you saying supply and demand has no bearing? then why isn't the minimum wage 100000000000 an hour? if all that matters is what the government says why dont we make the minimum wage 1000000000000000000000 per hour?
compensation has a clear definition too.
I know income has a clear definition. income alone should not be looked at.
the sum of all value transferred from your employer to you should be looked at.
if compensation is not used in economics then why did my government source display total compensation?
If I pay you 10$ and give you a gold watch in exchange for your TV did I pay 10$? no. I payed way more. the watch has a value. benefits have a value.
Edited by BANANA.MAN (02/19/20 03:20 PM)
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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26493606 - 02/19/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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“Totally free market” is not a term that...you know...exists...
Labor prices are not dictated by supply and demand because minimum wage exists. I don’t know how many times I have to say it before you decide to do some research on the topic...
You can sell the gold watch for dollars. You can pay someone with a gold watch. You can’t sell vacation time. You can’t pay someone with a day off.
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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
#26493609 - 02/19/20 03:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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You said paid time off IS part of income though. It’s not. Just thought I’d mention that (46 times)
What SHOULD be the case is beyond the scope of this debate. Again, we’re talking economics, not philosophy or social sciences.
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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson

Registered: 01/11/15
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
#26493620 - 02/19/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: “Totally free market” is not a term that...you know...exists...
Labor prices are not dictated by supply and demand because minimum wage exists. I don’t know how many times I have to say it before you decide to do some research on the topic...
You can sell the gold watch for dollars. You can pay someone with a gold watch. You can’t sell vacation time. You can’t pay someone with a day off.
so then why dont we make the minimum wgae 10 000 an hour? if the government can just decide the wages then why isnt the minimum wage 10 000? wouldnt that be better?
the government sets a minimum wage and then the owners of the business who have to pay their emloyees more often hike up the prices to compensate for the disparity. every action you take to interfere with the equilibrium determined by the market has an equal and opposite reaction.
the watch has a value, s do the benefitd. its dishonest not to look at the total compensation the employee receives. you have to look at the sum value of everything the employee receives.
you cant compare the income of someone completely compensated through their income and the income who is compensated in more than just income.
Quote:
feldman114 said: You said paid time off IS part of income though. It’s not. Just thought I’d mention that (46 times)
What SHOULD be the case is beyond the scope of this debate. Again, we’re talking economics, not philosophy or social sciences.
if i said that then i misspoke. You will have to excuse me im trying to actually get to the root of the disagreement not argue semantics.
its part of compensation. my point stands that its dishonest to look at only income in comparison to productivity.
if total compensation doesnt matter then why have disposable income and consumption per capita also increased? you straight ignored that point twice.
Edited by BANANA.MAN (02/19/20 03:43 PM)
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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26493679 - 02/19/20 04:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Why yes, a higher minimum wage WOULD be better
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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114] 2
#26494039 - 02/19/20 08:17 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Why yes, a higher minimum wage WOULD be better
lol, ok. I see you're pulling a FakeSunRa now and tapping out intellectually. Pleasure talking with you.
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twighead
mͯó



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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26494049 - 02/19/20 08:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Pay yer damn taxes Jeff!
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,331
Loc: subtropics
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26494589 - 02/20/20 07:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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But it's that simple, pay the minimum wage of 20 bucks an hour to start, and then give appropriate raises from there etc...it would not hurt the billionaire, at all. It would only help the laborer more.
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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26494591 - 02/20/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:
feldman114 said: Why yes, a higher minimum wage WOULD be better
lol, ok. I see you're pulling a FakeSunRa now and tapping out intellectually. Pleasure talking with you.
You love making your accusations...
I’ll take your poasts seriously when you read the thread. For now, you’re just regurgitating points that were already talked to death. It doesn’t make for interesting discussion, sorry...
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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
#26494684 - 02/20/20 08:46 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Increasing minmum wage would only be truely effective with a fixed maximum on prices. Having a higher income and more expensive goods doesnt really help you
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: Tripsurfer]
#26494696 - 02/20/20 08:56 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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That’s not true. The difference doesn’t HAVE to be made up in price hikes. Instead, the billionaires can make less profit. I’m not pretending to know how this would look legislatively, but it’s certainly possible to restrict price hikes during the first years after mandating a livable wage.
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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
#26494715 - 02/20/20 09:03 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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For example, take Switzerland. Their citizens have the highest WAGES in the world, as well as the most PURCHASING POWER. As in, they can afford more than anyone else, even though their prices are high compared to the US. https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2020&displayColumn=1
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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
#26494725 - 02/20/20 09:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes, obviously its not impossible. It would however, amongst other things, entail limiting people that are not in minimum wage jobs what they can ask for their services.
The Amazon employee gets an increase but the car mechanic cannot increase his hourly rate because that would impact the relative increase of the Amazon employee.
The baker wouldnt be allowed to increase the price of his bread
And so on
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
#26494737 - 02/20/20 09:11 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes but the US is in number 3 so I dont really know what you mean by that.
Yes Swizerland is expensive, yes wages are high. If you average the two against each other the purchasing power in the US isnt much different
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: Tripsurfer]
#26494746 - 02/20/20 09:16 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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That makes sense to you? Why would you assume this? There are 0 economic models that support your “theory”. Meanwhile, plenty exist that demonstrate the benefits of a livable wage. The entire economy grows - everyone benefits. https://www.epi.org/publication/minimum-wage-testimony-feb-2019/
Just for laughs, here’s another recent study that explains why a rise in minimum wage has no effect on employment rates. https://cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf
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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: Tripsurfer]
#26494761 - 02/20/20 09:23 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tripsurfer said: Yes but the US is in number 3 so I dont really know what you mean by that.
Yes Swizerland is expensive, yes wages are high. If you average the two against each other the purchasing power in the US isnt much different
Should’ve Googled purchasing power first, bud.
pur·chas·ing pow·er noun the financial ability to buy products and services. the value of a sum of money. "the purchasing power of a million dollars isn't what it used to be"
Swiss people can purchase more than Americans, even though their prices are higher. Therefore, your initial argument of “high wages are only effective with fixed prices” has no standing in reality.
Yes, it would help to lock down the market when structural changes are implemented. But it isn’t necessary. Higher working class wages would be beneficial all on their own.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



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Loc: subtropics
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: Tripsurfer] 1
#26494763 - 02/20/20 09:23 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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BUT, if the top people/owners/corps DID NOT increase their profits, and only took the few millions/billions that they do make then all would be better. It's so very simple, but I know that will never happen because corps/greed/capitalism dictates a profit, more, up, etc....and they will NEVER "take less" because it goes against the very thing it was created for. I also think that the price of oil drives the entire prices of everything up. There is no free or incredibly cheap energy because the powers that be wouldn't have that control, nor the money they have, it's all a sickening game and one has to play it to a certain extent to get to whatever level they want/feel comfy in.
Feldman said:The difference doesn’t HAVE to be made up in price hikes. Instead, the billionaires can make less profit.
This! This is the basic truth, and there is no reason why they shouldn't pay more other than the fact of "they'll make less profit" (still making millions and billions, but they CAN NOT get over the less part). It's quite simple really, but greed and money have no morals.
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susurrador
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
#26494943 - 02/20/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Here's an excerpt I found regarding the EPI and their studies:
The Economic Policy Institute was founded in 1986 by Jeff Faux, who was previously the co-director of the National Center for Economic Alternatives (NCEA). As its name suggests, the NCEA specialized in offering “alternatives”—alternatives characterized as “radical” in The New York Times—to mainstream U.S. domestic policy.
NCEA‘s co-director was Gar Alperovitz, now a University of Maryland professor and author of America Beyond Capitalism. Prior to working at the NCEA, Alperovitz co-authored the essay collection Strategy and Program: Two Essays Toward a New American Socialism, where he advocated using socialist ideas to make the United States a “fairer” nation.
The problem is socialists trying to function in a capitalistic society. The system rewards hard work and good ideas as it stands. It is good motivation and can work well for anyone who works hard and/or has good ideas. You'll be steady upset and nothing will ever be right applying socialist ideals to a capitalist puzzle.
You all keep saying things like the billionaires can make less profit, but you forget that those decisions are made from the top, not the bottom. Since when does the employee tell the boss how much they're going to make? It only happens in a labor market where demand for employees is far greater than their availability.
Capitalism is easier to live with if you play by the rules.
-------------------- "If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."
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