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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26492230 - 02/18/20 06:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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BANANA.MAN said:
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feldman114 said: Most people who were paying taxes in the 70’s are dead.
“Total compensation” isn’t even a real term in economics. It’s just something lobbyists came up with to help politicians justify the wealth gap. For all economical purposes, your wage IS your compensation. You can’t shop using your sick days...and your employer is mandated to provide them.
Your reasoning is flawed as hell. Anyone who ever studied economics can attest to that.
we arent even talking about taxes. we are talking about income. way to enter a conversation completely out of your element.
even if they are all dead my point still stands. the ones in the bottom group did not remain and die in the bottom group and their kids may not be in the bottom group now.
therr is alot of mobility. so you cant just treat foir income groups as consistent groups when people are moving in and oit of them the whole time.
compensation includes all benefits, maternity leave, insurance, sick days, vacation days. all of those things have a value. not including that value into the calculation is dishonest. it doesnt matter if they are made to provide them. that makes zero difference. its still part of their compensation. and as you can see if you include benefits much of the difference between productivity and wages in qmans flawed chart goes away. if they werent forced to provide that stuff then rhey could afford to pay higher wages. its part of the equation no matter what.
you really dont know what you are talking about.
again, you have many misconceptions. why dont you go back and reply to my other posts you ignored instead of going away and coming back to new topics? its really lame when you guys do that.
Mobility doesn't change anything, those groups still exist and should be compared to previous time periods. Why should those comparisons be discarded?
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26492239 - 02/18/20 06:09 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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BANANA.MAN said:
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feldman114 said: Lol you’ve obv never studied economics. And you said people who were in a low tax bracket in the 70’s are doing better now. But most aren’t even alive. How do you continue pushing this point?
if you actually read the entire thread, you’d know I’m not “out of my element”.
qman is framing the discussion in a dishonest way by presenting 4 seperate groups.
but those groups are not consistant. yeah the income of one group may have only grown by X%. But hes not looking at the income of the people IN the group. if you tracked the INDIVIDUALS who started in the bottom groups you would see many who have worked their way up to the higher groups, whose incomes have grown by way more than the X% shown in the graphs. but qman is implying that if you were in the bottom groups your income as an individual doesnt grow by more than the X%.
its not like everyone in the middle class group only increased their income by X percent. its that as a whole the income of the middle class earners (who arent the same people) has grown by X%.
many of the people in the group have had their income grow by much more than that X%.
You would also see many moved down in those groups as well, that's what economic mobility is about, correct?
When someone was working for GM and their factory closed and moved to Mexico, they usually move significantly downward. That happened to millions and millions of workers the past 40 years.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: qman]
#26492249 - 02/18/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's what happens when a union makes jobs for people to sit and do nothing for $40 an hour. Carpenters and steamfitters are the few strong unions left but even they'll eventually destroy themselves
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: bodhisatta]
#26492256 - 02/18/20 06:16 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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bodhisatta said: That's what happens when a union makes jobs for people to sit and do nothing for $40 an hour. Carpenters and steamfitters are the few strong unions left but even they'll eventually destroy themselves
Regardless of the union or not, paying someone in a slave world nation for 1/30 the wage is an economic no brainer. Whether the worker is unionize or not is irrelevant.
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TheFakeSunRa
Bitch Splitter



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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#26492478 - 02/18/20 08:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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bodhisatta said: That's what happens when a union makes jobs for people to sit and do nothing for $40 an hour. Carpenters and steamfitters are the few strong unions left but even they'll eventually destroy themselves
Yeah unions suck. Fuck making a lot a money. We should make less so our bosses can have more. It’s only right. Fuck having a decent place to live and being able to take vacations and put our kids through college. That shit sucks. I want to be poor and sick and never get to see any of this world except the inside of my work place. Fuck a union trying to get me paid more money and shit. Fucking assholes.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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ichugwindex
Dex



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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: qman]
#26492495 - 02/18/20 08:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
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bodhisatta said: That's what happens when a union makes jobs for people to sit and do nothing for $40 an hour. Carpenters and steamfitters are the few strong unions left but even they'll eventually destroy themselves
Regardless of the union or not, paying someone in a slave world nation for 1/30 the wage is an economic no brainer. Whether the worker is unionize or not is irrelevant.
Q man is right. We are right at the line where the poor will literally eat they (the rich) dont seem to care.
-------------------- Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
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Loc: subtropics
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: bodhisatta]
#26493003 - 02/19/20 08:15 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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bodhisatta said: That's what happens when a union makes jobs for people to sit and do nothing for $40 an hour. Carpenters and steamfitters are the few strong unions left but even they'll eventually destroy themselves
If you think that those menial jobs are "sitting around doing nothing" then why don't you do it? OH, wait, you either went to school for the position you're in, or worked your way up, or something. I don't know. I do know that some people either do not want to go into management, do not have opportunities others have, or simply choose to enjoy life more than working. If everyone went to school and everyone has degrees in management etc....who do you think will run the hive?
The worker bees need something more even though the managers/queens do not see this. They are blinded by greed. How would it hurt a multi billion dollar company to just start the pay at 20 an hour and give regular raises from there? It wouldn't, but greed and a "I got mine, fuck you, you get yours" attitude is what is wrong here, not to mention other things in place. Even a company that makes, let's say 5-10 million a year after everything is cleared, paid, and all, overhead is done, that is the take home pay for the top guy(s). Now if they were to just make 3-7 million instead, and give that extra few mill to the employees, how in the fuck would that be a detriment of ANY sort to the people still making millions of dollars each?
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
#26493024 - 02/19/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I know a boatload of union welders and carpenters. The welders constantly get laid off. They're self admittedly lazy.
The carpenters work but say it's only bad government contracts and goofy religious companies keeping them afloat. No one would pay their prices otherwise.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#26493065 - 02/19/20 09:03 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah, I'm not in that biz, just speculating and conversing here. I'm cool as a cucumber. What really makes me furious is the billion dollar corps, but I'm OK in my life. This conversation is very enlightening and has a lot of useful info. I really do like your input and tell the truth about how some people actually say they are. I have seen/met these types as well in the bar/restaurant biz. Every facet of life/business has these types of people. Seems like maybe they are the reason(s) that a company has made it so they can pay the least amount due to this fact, and everyone suffers because of it, everyone but the high up business people of course. Catch 22.
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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
#26493078 - 02/19/20 09:12 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Anecdotal evidence isn’t proof though.
https://advanced.edu/welding-jobs-demand-increase/
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The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the need for welders is expected to grow by 26 percent by 2020. This makes welding one of the fastest growing professions in America.
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/mobile/carpenters.htm
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Employment of carpenters is projected to grow 8 percent from 2018 to 2028, faster than the average for all occupations.
The most in-demand workers are nurses and truck drivers - both are unionized fields. The lazy union workers will be a-ok. It’s the people working in other industries who are FUCKED. Bank tellers, mail room workers, data clerks, customer service employees, etc...
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,331
Loc: subtropics
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114] 1
#26493087 - 02/19/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Bank tellers, mail room workers, data clerks, customer service employees, etc...
Robots will replace these jobs eventually.
SO glad I got my nursing degree!
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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
#26493267 - 02/19/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Luckily the world will always need managers muhahaha
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,331
Loc: subtropics
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: Tripsurfer] 1
#26493310 - 02/19/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yep! And Nurses!
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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson

Registered: 01/11/15
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: ichugwindex] 1
#26493394 - 02/19/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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feldman114 said: Income determines the product bundle people choose. So, obviously, sick days and maternity leaves don’t count as income.
401k’s and insurance do, but you use your income to pay for those. You just use untaxed dollars.
The argument that if it wasn’t for mandated vacation time, employers would be able to pay more is asinine in the context of this thread. Bezos can already afford to pay his workers more...
I could afford to pay a kid $1000 to shovel snow or rake leaves. its not about what you can afford its about what the labour costs. and the cost of labour is set by the market.
if its paid sick days and maternity leave it has a value. all benefits have a value. it is still a cost to the employer. if you have a 70 000 salary or a 65 000 salary and 5000 in benefits its the same cost to the employer and the same benefit to the employee. It is totally dishonest to exclude benefits
If you want to argue this point you would also have to explain why disposable income or consumption percapita has also increased dramatically since the 70s.
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qman said:
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BANANA.MAN said: Real wages claim to be adjusted for purchasing power but there have been many innovations which improve quality of life since the 70s. you cant compare the purchasing power.
besides you are using the wrong stats. if you look at for example real compensation per capita (all benefits not just wages), real personal consuptionnexpenditures per capita or personal disposable income per capita you will see an increase in loving standardssince the 70s.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0A048NBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A794RX0Q048SBEA
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/COMPRNFB
Look at you putting people into groups and comparing the groups together. you are doing what you accused me of. you cant just put people into 4 groups and then ignore the fact that throughout the whole time period you have people moving accross groups during that whole time period. many of the people who were in the lowest bracket in the 70s are no longer there.
most wealth is earned not inherited. you cant just put people into groups like that and ignote that the groups are made up of totally different people and infact the previous population of the bottom group have since expetienced upward mobility.
in regards to your chart about wages not following productivity. first of all if you looked at total compensation and not just wages it would follow productivity more closely.
https://www.heritage.org/jobs-and-labor/report/productivity-and-compensation-growing-together
"The second problem is that this chart arguably uses an inappropriate measure of inflation, the CPI, which shows a very small increase in wages. The CPI is a measure of inflation more suited to the consumer market. Labor is a factor of production and, thus, a measure of inflation in the factors market is more appropriate, like the Implicit Price Deflator."
https://fee.org/articles/5-myths-about-income-inequality-debunked/
Hmm, why are you posting about per capita? We're discussing the working class, why would you put in the millionaires/billionaires into a statistic with the peasants? It makes no sense. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0A048NBEA
How about "real MEDIAN household income", which obviously doesn't take into account TWO or more people working instead of ONE person like they did 40 years ago. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
Oh yes, the total compensation!!! It doesn't include the stock options. What a joke already, people have LESS benefits today with less health care, zero pensions and self funded 401k plans.
Almost anyone with even a small degree of intellectual honestly recongnize the massive gap of productivity and wages today. Most don't dispute it, but argue on what to do about it. [url=https://www.google.com/search?q=productivity and wages graph&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Of__I8ke-2f1pM%3A%2CFTR1yQfjs1_VQM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSL5u3heyjpoBSpeCL-NcAbIXwgmQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwif_IT9stznAhX2lHIEHTjdDKsQ9QEwAHoECAoQHA#imgrc=uZCcySYq3RnfaM&imgdii=citMWOYL8p8r5M]https://www.google.com/search?q=productivity and wages graph&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Of__I8ke-2f1pM%3A%2CFTR1yQfjs1_VQM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSL5u3heyjpoBSpeCL-NcAbIXwgmQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwif_IT9stznAhX2lHIEHTjdDKsQ9QEwAHoECAoQHA#imgrc=uZCcySYq3RnfaM&imgdii=citMWOYL8p8r5M[/url]
Holy shit, what a desperate and shitty attempt to justify the obvious. https://fee.org/articles/5-myths-about-income-inequality-debunked/ 
Again, People are moving in and out of those different income groups. its actually dishonest to separate people into groups like that because people dont consistently have the same income throughout their lives. the "working class" will be made up of a different group of people than it is now in 5 years. it measures the increase of the groups but it doesnt measure the increase in wages of the people in the groups. thats why those comparisons should be discarded.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2016/07/16/upper-middle-class-has-more-than-doubled-since-1979/86613830/
the upper middle class in the usa has more than doubled int he usa since 1979. things are not as static as you are implying.
like you say, the number of people or working people in the household is not constant. so it would be much more honest to use a consistent, unchanging number. per person. more women work now but its not like no women worked in the 70s. the amount of women in the workforce had already been increasing since the end of ww2. and the size of families has shrunk as well so you cant compare households from the 70s to households now.
Employee benefits have increased. see my source abut total compensation.
yes people have gone down. you people dont seem to understand that. you act like once someone has wealth, they and their family are set for life. downward mobility is an important part of mobility. and its an important part of the free market. but as we have seen from many line graphs in this thread, graphs can have dips and still be on the overall upward trajectory. and besides, stuff has to fail, thats part of conversation. look at blockbuster. its a good thing that they were out competed by improving technology. its a setback for them but overall its part of progress.
the cost of many goods have decreased. most poor people these days have tvs, fridges, stoves, ect, ect. that was not the case in the fairly recent past. free trade and entrepreneurship have made these goods available to rise our quality of life.
what costs more now than before? houses, education, healthcare. what do those things have in common? they are heavily regulated by the government. these things should be treated like other consumer goods and their price will drop like the other consumer goods that have improved our lives.
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feldman114
Stragler


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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26493407 - 02/19/20 01:12 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
could afford to pay a kid $1000 to shovel snow or rake leaves. its not about what you can afford its about what the labour costs. and the cost of labour is set by the market.
if its paid sick days and maternity leave it has a value. all benefits have a value. it is still a cost to the employer. if you have a 70 000 salary or a 65 000 salary and 5000 in benefits its the same cost to the employer and the same benefit to the employee. It is totally dishonest to exclude benefits
If you want to argue this point you would also have to explain why disposable income or consumption percapita has also increased dramatically since the 70s.
Lol!!! You’re the one who said “if they weren’t paying for sick days, they’d be able to pay employees more”.
And once again - Read The Thread! Labor hasn’t been a free market for decades, dude. The market does NOT decide the cost of labor. The fact that minimum wage is not a livable wage is abhorrent....all things previously discussed here...read back before Poasting more disproven rhetoric....
If you earn 60k/year and get 4 weeks paid vacation time, your income is still 60k. In economics, these terms have precise definitions, but you refuse to even read the ones I linked to...very close minded of you.
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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson

Registered: 01/11/15
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
#26493512 - 02/19/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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feldman114 said:
Quote:
could afford to pay a kid $1000 to shovel snow or rake leaves. its not about what you can afford its about what the labour costs. and the cost of labour is set by the market.
if its paid sick days and maternity leave it has a value. all benefits have a value. it is still a cost to the employer. if you have a 70 000 salary or a 65 000 salary and 5000 in benefits its the same cost to the employer and the same benefit to the employee. It is totally dishonest to exclude benefits
If you want to argue this point you would also have to explain why disposable income or consumption percapita has also increased dramatically since the 70s.
Lol!!! You’re the one who said “if they weren’t paying for sick days, they’d be able to pay employees more”.
And once again - Read The Thread! Labor hasn’t been a free market for decades, dude. The market does NOT decide the cost of labor. The fact that minimum wage is not a livable wage is abhorrent....all things previously discussed here...read back before Poasting more disproven rhetoric....
If you earn 60k/year and get 4 weeks paid vacation time, your income is still 60k. In economics, these terms have precise definitions, but you refuse to even read the ones I linked to...very close minded of you.
what i mean is it they werent compensated by benefits they would be compensated completely in cash.
The market does decide the cost of labour. and people interfere with that by implementing a minimum wage for example which causes problems. in general, pay is determined by demand for the work and supply of workers.
switzerland has no minimim wage and it has among the hughest average wages in the world.
I was talking about hourly wages. I fucked up by saying salary. my appologies.
If you make $20 for every hour of work but you are also paid for a certain amount of days where you are sick or on vacation you ate being paid for more than just the hours you work.
for example at my work I make an hourly wage which I will not disclose and I'm also paid in lieu of benefits and vacation days. thats on top of my hourly wage. so my hourly wage is not my compensation.
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



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Loc: subtropics
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26493537 - 02/19/20 02:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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what i mean is it they werent compensated by benefits they would be compensated completely in cash.
Which would not cover the costs of healthcare, insurance, gas, bills, etc... in THIS country.
switzerland has no minimim wage and it has among the hughest average wages in the world.
This could be one reason why, the cost of an education.
As for getting a Master degree in Switzerland, the full program tuition fee ranges between CHF 3,000 to CHF 13,000. Some Master's programs in private institutions may have a higher fee structure, though. For an MBA it is generally CHF 24,000, however, some MBA programs range between CHF 30,000 to CHF 85,000.
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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26493544 - 02/19/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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You know, you can read all about what Americans went through before mandated sick/vacation time...people just came to work sick and barely ever vacationed anywhere. But that’s history. And we’re talking economics. And according to economics, your income is everything that you can use as purchasing power. If it doesn’t affect a consumer’s Product Bundle, it’s not income.
The minimum wage means, by definition, that labor is not a free market. This is economics 101. If you don’t believe me or my sources, simply google “is labor a free market?”.
The U.S. arguably isn’t even a market economy. Republicans just like to act like it used to be in the “good old days”...
Quote:
In a free market economy, the law of supply and demand, rather than a central government, regulates production and labor. Companies sell goods and services at the highest price consumers are willing to pay, while workers earn the highest wages companies are willing to pay for their services.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/031815/united-states-considered-market-economy-or-mixed-economy.asp
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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson

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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: feldman114]
#26493561 - 02/19/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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tyrannicalrex said: what i mean is it they werent compensated by benefits they would be compensated completely in cash.
Which would not cover the costs of healthcare, insurance, gas, bills, etc... in THIS country.
Quote:
feldman114 said: You know, you can read all about what Americans went through before mandated sick/vacation time...people just came to work sick and barely ever vacationed anywhere. But that’s history. And we’re talking economics. And according to economics, your income is everything that you can use as purchasing power. If it doesn’t affect a consumer’s Product Bundle, it’s not income.
The minimum wage means, by definition, that labor is not a free market. This is economics 101. If you don’t believe me or my sources, simply google “is labor a free market?”.
The U.S. arguably isn’t even a market economy. Republicans just like to act like it used to be in the “good old days”...
Quote:
In a free market economy, the law of supply and demand, rather than a central government, regulates production and labor. Companies sell goods and services at the highest price consumers are willing to pay, while workers earn the highest wages companies are willing to pay for their services.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/031815/united-states-considered-market-economy-or-mixed-economy.asp
I'm not saying the US has a totally free market. infact I've said the opposite multiple times in this thread. have you been reading my posts? you keep acting outraged that I'm not listening to you. are you listening to me?
You are claiming that wages have stagnated. I am saying that's disingenuous because you have to look at other factors besides hourly wages. and those include the other factors I've pointed out. we aren't arguing over whether or not the USA is a totally free market economy. we are talking about the myth of wage stagnation. stay on topic because I agree with you that the usa is not a totally free market economy.
it doesn't matter if it doesn't meet the definition of income. its dishonest to compare just income rather than compensation to productivity. there is still a cost to the employer and still a benefit to the employee. It has a value, therefore it needs to be part of the equation.
Rex they would receive the SAME compensation, only it would be in the form of only cash. they would pay an amount of cash equal to the value of the benefits.
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feldman114
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26493568 - 02/19/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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You said: 1. Labor is a free market. 2. Mandated employee benefits count as income.
I’ve simply been refuting these 2 falsehoods. Not outraged, really.
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