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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Money is Alienation
    #26490773 - 02/17/20 08:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Like literally.

Placing a projected real value into a paper bill with a number on it or better yet a digitized number on a electronic screen.  I recall that currency was created for the purposes of social efficiency by the division of labor.  However, there must be a way to maintain social efficiency without currency and it’s alienation.  In my mind this is what government/enforcement is for.  In the old days rulership was through blood.  No reason to resort to that.  Democratically elected governments ought to maintain social efficiency.  Corruption?  There’s no money and it’s potential of alienation.  Plus governmental officials are democratically elected. 

It’s fairly common knowledge that in society there needs to be give and take.  Production/consumption.  Work and leisure.  In realizing this people democratically elect governmental officials to make law policies that reflect this truth.  For example those able to work must work X # of hours/week.  Otherwise a reason must be provided and appropriate actions (PT, therapy etc.) will be determined.  The idea being that money and it’s alienation (from reality) would be out of the equation. 

Furthermore, could democratically elected governments not maintain databases of all registered businesses and their metrics for the purposes of social efficiency.  Not to control said businesses but to simply provide a means of resourcing for people seeking work who are required to do so.  The efficient supply/demand invisible hand would be very much in play.  As opposed to a governmental totalitarianism like the Soviet Union.  In other words, elected governments would be a resource and social lubricant for its society while doubling as enforcement and regulation. 

To me this seems like a superior system to the one that has currency very much in the equation.  Sure money is a motivator.  But for what?  Good and bad.  In its essence, however, is alienation.  This comes before what it can motivate people to do.  Without it people would move more authentically.  And authenticity is superior to a good lie.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26491176 - 02/18/20 05:23 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

in this you achieve little other than to hide the paper which is what is happening now.
you can literally go anywhere in the world with just your bank card and your passport.


a more fundamental concept is private property.

resolving what we need in private property, and how that can be healthful rather than exploitative, while still supporting a person's sense of dignity and participation needs more work - that is fundamental to society's health and the corollary of health for the individual relies on healthy society.

by having a body and extending it into property to some extent enables us to perform as people, so some degree of private property is essential.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26492307 - 02/18/20 06:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
in this you achieve little other than to hide the paper which is what is happening now.
you can literally go anywhere in the world with just your bank card and your passport.


a more fundamental concept is private property.

resolving what we need in private property, and how that can be healthful rather than exploitative, while still supporting a person's sense of dignity and participation needs more work - that is fundamental to society's health and the corollary of health for the individual relies on healthy society.

by having a body and extending it into property to some extent enables us to perform as people, so some degree of private property is essential.




Not simply paper cash but currency as a whole, to do away with it totally. 

A person or group of people with property rights over territory, or whatever it is, is based on their acquisition through the medium of currency.  Property right is the fundamental concept but what I’m itching at is that currency, in all its forms, isn’t a great way of mediating property in society due to the inherent alienation that is currency.  Does anybody believe that currency is not alienating ? 

This is why I bring up government and it’s branches of enforcement and resolution to settle right of property.  I don’t see how currency is necessary for this process.  Hence the criticism.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26492336 - 02/18/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

If you understand property, how do you change currency so that property works better for people.

currency is tied to the idea of property and work.

I sure there is a better way but I have not seen it yet.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26492534 - 02/18/20 09:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Sure you could change currency, not my rap. 

Property is whatever it’s inhabitants decide it is.  Money is doing well right now, it’s producing adaptive social behaviors ?

No, I think it’s bedtime for the currency.  Social life can actually exist without money.  The world would not end I don’t think.  An informed voter with governmental enforcement of majority and pro social behavior should do the trick.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26492916 - 02/19/20 07:13 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

you should not trust a totalitarian regime.
especially one that removes and supervises all forms of exchange.

we have to dream harder to find a good solution. the problem is not cash but the insufficiency of it.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26493158 - 02/19/20 10:13 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Re: Yellow Pants
.  A naive idea in my opinion. Before money native peoples sure knew who owed who, what sort of favors, and who could marry whom, and so on.

When population grows & anonymity arises this no longer works.
You can't take your goat up to the 5th floor, to barter with your Doctor.

.  More generally the world is more complex than any of us can imagine, so simple one size fits all type solutions, generally solve nothing IMO.

.  Continuing this example I would say population growth is a more fundamental factor as regards Alienation. But why this is the case, for humans, leads to many more questions. And why birth control pills, a seemingly simple solution, didn't & don't solve the problem, again leads to more questions. Humans have not solved this, for hundreds of years. Cities have almost always had very ugly parts, so it's been an issue as long as even primitive cities existed.

.  Also even slightly more "advanced" cultures than hunter gatherers already had inequality, long before banks, taxes, and so on. So the "urge" for humans to create & tolerate inequality is another factor that might need exploring, if one wants a better theoretical understanding.


Edited by laughingdog (02/19/20 10:23 AM)


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26493364 - 02/19/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:

No, I think it’s bedtime for the currency.  Social life can actually exist without money.  The world would not end I don’t think.  An informed voter with governmental enforcement of majority and pro social behavior should do the trick.




Social life can exist without money, but civilization couldn't. There was a very long period in human history (pre-civilization) when money was not necessary, but I don't think there's any chance of returning to that time.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26493462 - 02/19/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think we can get past money, but there are issues to solve, and I don't know where we are going with private property, which is really a form of 'custody' and custody can both be paid for as well as charged for. i.e. both a service and an honor, or entitlement.
what does it mean to cultivate, create, preserve, provide.
There is lots to deconstruct and the rebuild for higher density living.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26493822 - 02/19/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:

No, I think it’s bedtime for the currency.  Social life can actually exist without money.  The world would not end I don’t think.  An informed voter with governmental enforcement of majority and pro social behavior should do the trick.




Social life can exist without money, but civilization couldn't. There was a very long period in human history (pre-civilization) when money was not necessary, but I don't think there's any chance of returning to that time.




Let me just spitball some ideas at you.

It’s not all about governmental totalitarianism.  By civilization I assume you mean economics and satisfactory distribution of goods, services, and the production associated with it. 

Here you go.  Rig goods/services to the demands of society through advanced algorithmic database that is connected with producers and labor.  Quantify it.  Be transparent about shortages, production, and consumption.  Inform consumers so they know, for example, if oranges are being eaten too frequently. 

As far as property, base it on utility and registration.  Register the big stuff (cars, houses) and promote utility and second hand with the smaller stuff (couches, bikes, TVs).  Supports material efficiencies, and reduces crime based on poverty.  Use tech for these things as well not just markets. 

Use Democratic government to legislate desired minimum labor requirements and policing.  Not totalitarian.  Democratic with less incentive for corruption due to currency. 

Make MSM streamlined to the people regarding production/consumption and governmental legislations.

Basically I feel people might consume and produce more on genuine desire and real economic realities compared to the conduct through the almighty dollar.


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26494000 - 02/19/20 07:48 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

money is entertainment, what people will do for some cheese. :smile:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26497064 - 02/21/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Re: Yellow Pants .... Idealism.....

"Once upon a time all the Mice met together in Council, and discussed the best means of securing themselves against the attacks of the cat. After several suggestions had been debated, a Mouse of some standing and experience got up and said, “I think I have hit upon a plan which will ensure our safety in the future, provided you approve and carry it out. It is that we should fasten a bell round the neck of our enemy the cat, which will by its tinkling warn us of her approach.” This proposal was warmly applauded, and it had been already decided to adopt it, when an old Mouse got upon his feet and said, “I agree with you all that the plan before us is an admirable one: but may I ask who is going to bell the cat?”

Fables of Aesop


Edited by laughingdog (02/21/20 02:17 PM)


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: laughingdog]
    #26498921 - 02/22/20 07:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Re: Yellow Pants .... Idealism.....

"Once upon a time all the Mice met together in Council, and discussed the best means of securing themselves against the attacks of the cat. After several suggestions had been debated, a Mouse of some standing and experience got up and said, “I think I have hit upon a plan which will ensure our safety in the future, provided you approve and carry it out. It is that we should fasten a bell round the neck of our enemy the cat, which will by its tinkling warn us of her approach.” This proposal was warmly applauded, and it had been already decided to adopt it, when an old Mouse got upon his feet and said, “I agree with you all that the plan before us is an admirable one: but may I ask who is going to bell the cat?”

Fables of Aesop





:thumbup:  not the job of philosophy


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26498970 - 02/22/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I'd rather spread the corruption around rather than give it all to the government. Like with so many things, money isn't the problem. People are.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26498994 - 02/22/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. D Green said:
money is entertainment, what people will do for some cheese. :smile:






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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #26499903 - 02/23/20 12:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The question may be, how does he (the OP) relate to money, that is different from before,  now that he has decided that he feels this way, in his own life.

Has he become a monk or philanthropist or forger or gone to live at Walden Pond?


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: laughingdog]
    #26500655 - 02/23/20 10:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
The question may be, how does he (the OP) relate to money, that is different from before,  now that he has decided that he feels this way, in his own life.

Has he become a monk or philanthropist or forger or gone to live at Walden Pond?




Walden pond ?  I’ve never heard of that before.  I may be headed for Walden pond then.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26501348 - 02/24/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Walden Pond is a real place. But is used here metaphorically, as a reference to
Henry David Thoreau

Any library should have a copy of "Walden"

"Henry David Thoreau was an American essayist, poet, and philosopher. A leading transcendentalist, he is best known for his book Walden, a reflection upon simple living in natural surroundings, and his essay "Civil Disobedience", an argument for disobedience to an unjust state.Wikipedia'

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=thoreau&t=h_&ia=web


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Offlinekitten6
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26504472 - 02/26/20 07:56 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

i think when they came up with the idea of money, most people knew that it would be short sighted to put it into use. When you start to mix up value and money, suddenly, with money you can have huge amount of value you can buy anything. There is no valuable more valuable then your stash of money. If you think money is value then if you had infinite money, then you have infinite value. But in fact value only goes so far.

Things only really become valuable when they become scarce. Money will never become scarce, but scarce things will still be traded for it. It acts like a catalyst. Two objects of value are never traded for each other directly instead through money they will be traded, two valuables never come into contact. When a valuable becomes for sale it will touch the circle which is money. Money moves fast round and round, a verdict is reached and the valuable moves away again with a different owner.

This means that as long as you have valuables you can get money for them and then give that money for different valuables. As long as you can make valuables you can get money for it which means you can get anything from one thing. Suddenly you don't need to acquire all the basic valuables that you need yourself. You can simply trade money for them. Now you only need to specialise in one valuable to sustain yourself, and the more of this valuable you can get the more money you can make and the more things you can get and the easier it is to tackle your crippling fear of death. Suddenly you have more money than other people and people start looking up to you like they never had before. You pride in your money. Some people have more money than you. You are obsessed with money. You look down on those without money.

Money can be easily centralized, the person with the most money, has the most control over all money. Wait long enough, you end up with a monarchy. Centralization of power and social hierarchy. Would this all be possible without money?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Money is Alienation [Re: kitten6]
    #26504525 - 02/26/20 08:47 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So without money there would be no centralization of power? I don't buy that.

Things would be much the same without money. There would still be a pyramid and most would be at the bottom. The absence of money wouldn't magically change human nature.

Non fiat based currency, now there's a more reasonable idea. Fiat based currency is a promise and you know how that goes. But if you're the little guy, gotta keep your promises or else. The things we agree to do... no one to blame but ourselves. And when it all goes to hell we look for others to blame.

It's a form of gambling. People like to gamble. If people were different than they are, then things would be different.

Money is people.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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