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Offlineqman
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 3
    #26489665 - 02/17/20 09:14 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

qman said:
The problem is that you're making massive generalizations with terms like "free markets, loose economic policies, economic freedom" in a given time period and then not taking into account hundreds if not thousands of other variables into the equation. In other words, correlation is not causation.

I'm sure you can cherry pick some time periods and then put of convenient label on it, and then declare some sort of ideological victory, but that isn't being intellectually honest.

No matter what economic system is in usage, it never operates in a complete vacuum. The system is also constantly evolving as well. The US economic system today doesn't even resemble anything from 50 years ago, yet it still has the same label.

BTW, I really don't recall having a similar discussion in the past. I wouldn't doubt that we did, but I just don't remember it. :shrug:


we have discussed economics multiple times. not even that long ago.

Like I said I didnt just compare the two groups of free markets and unfree markets, and I dont simply compare one country's economy to another country's economy. for example if you look at sweden, you can see the effects of big government when you notice that went from the 4th richest industrialized country in 1975 to 14th less than 20 years later. And you can look further to see the efforts that the nordic countries like Sweden have made to move in the opposite direction by ending the government monopoly that existed in certain industries like for example the energy sector.

So instead of assuming that I'm going to consider the USA economy from 50 years ago to be the same as the one today (idk where you got that from. I cant recall doing that) maybe you should read the evidence that people present to you and address it. because I actually look at specific policies and not just the two categories of free and unfree.

Just because all countries regulate their economy to some degree doesnt mean I cant use any country as an example of why less government interference is a good thing.

there you go again, "no economy is totally free therefore you are a hypocrite who doesnt really want a free market" that argument is super lame.




Less government "interference" is a good thing for who exactly?  Companies and shareholders, or the working class?


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: qman]
    #26489682 - 02/17/20 09:26 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Offlineqman
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex] * 1
    #26489720 - 02/17/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
:popcorn:




Well, the fact of the matter is that GDP growth can be at the decent rate and the bottom 80% can have a deterioration in their standard of living. The US economy is a perfect example of that phenomenon.


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: qman]
    #26489730 - 02/17/20 10:03 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you! I love your posts in here, very good! Seems like we agree here 100%. I have gotten very lucky lately, and the mate has found something out in regards to an inheritance just this past xmas, so we are going to be fine for retirement. BUT, I do not take it for granted and it could all go away by some weird accident or me fucking it up with the mate (just my thinking, I have never been this lucky really, some pretty good luck here and there, but not like this). Let's say his bonus for the past year, was my yearly salary.


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26489881 - 02/17/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Don't count on it until it happens, Trex! Save for retirement anyway!

We've all probably heard the stories of botched wills and shit before.


About the lessening of government interference being a good thing.... I can only use this example because I am a part of the industry, but the cannabis industry is interesting.

The only people in the business making any decent kind of money are black market growers and hustlers. In fact, many of the legal regulated organizations that have emerged have been eviscerated through taxes, legal requirements to conduct business, testing, etc. There are lots and lots of hoops to jump through driving the cost up and tightening the margins.

Many of the folks that have been operating on the black market since cannabis prohibited began have been able to obtain real wealth without the hoops and taxes and regulations. Not Bezos' level of wealth... but I'm talking people from nothing and no money able to come up and buy land and build farms and not have to rely one bit on credit or loans to do this.

And it is kind of ironic that the only reason black market cannabis has become worth so much money is because the government regulated and passed laws against it.

So one might say things did turn out better because of regulation because the price inflated to the point that anyone who grew it was making money.

But don't forget... if we wouldn't have regulated cannabis and industrial hemp in the first place... we might not have the plastic problem we do today ... just making the point of how regulation really fucked shit up here.

So yeah, I feel like letting nature take its course in the economies of the world is the best choice. How many people have suffered and been deprived of their lives because we allowed cannabis to be regulated?

Government has a role to play for damn sure. But the more it dabbles in the business of buying and selling, and markets... the worse off most things are.


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"If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."



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OfflineTripsurfer
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador] * 1
    #26489915 - 02/17/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Bezos just set up the Bezos Earth Fund to combat climate change and put $10 B in it. How dare he!


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Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros...

A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.



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Offlineqman
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador]
    #26490009 - 02/17/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

susurrador said:
Don't count on it until it happens, Trex! Save for retirement anyway!

We've all probably heard the stories of botched wills and shit before.


About the lessening of government interference being a good thing.... I can only use this example because I am a part of the industry, but the cannabis industry is interesting.

The only people in the business making any decent kind of money are black market growers and hustlers. In fact, many of the legal regulated organizations that have emerged have been eviscerated through taxes, legal requirements to conduct business, testing, etc. There are lots and lots of hoops to jump through driving the cost up and tightening the margins.

Many of the folks that have been operating on the black market since cannabis prohibited began have been able to obtain real wealth without the hoops and taxes and regulations. Not Bezos' level of wealth... but I'm talking people from nothing and no money able to come up and buy land and build farms and not have to rely one bit on credit or loans to do this.

And it is kind of ironic that the only reason black market cannabis has become worth so much money is because the government regulated and passed laws against it.

So one might say things did turn out better because of regulation because the price inflated to the point that anyone who grew it was making money.

But don't forget... if we wouldn't have regulated cannabis and industrial hemp in the first place... we might not have the plastic problem we do today ... just making the point of how regulation really fucked shit up here.

So yeah, I feel like letting nature take its course in the economies of the world is the best choice. How many people have suffered and been deprived of their lives because we allowed cannabis to be regulated?

Government has a role to play for damn sure. But the more it dabbles in the business of buying and selling, and markets... the worse off most things are.




If it wasn't for marijuana prohibition, those growers wouldn't have made very much money at all. 

It's very difficult to make money in a true free market, that's why "capitalists" spend tens of billions of dollars by sending representatives to lobby for the type of market that benefits their company/industry.


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: susurrador]
    #26490015 - 02/17/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Anslinger, Dupont, and that other eccentric billionaire William R. Hearst,ruined the hemp industry and future.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26490109 - 02/17/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

no government = no billionaires

stop fronting like having wealth hoarders can coincide with less government

the rich ARE the government and wealth gaps are fascism

poverty is violence inflicted on the people by the oligarchy 

there’s no freedom in a society where tens of millions are governed by a time clock and starve if they disobey

property is theft


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 1
    #26490149 - 02/17/20 02:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I do agree with the government = billionaires line of thinking somewhat. People with equivalent wealth rarely exist throughout history without having relied on government contracts, government supplementation, or themselves being the government in question. You can't accumulate that kind of wealth without the express thumbs up from government entities. Whether it's avoiding taxes entirely, using government resources to secure a psuedo-monopoly or create barriers of entry, or using government resources to line your own pockets, no one typically has that kind of money without some kind of government related variable in place, even going back thousands of years.

That's not to say I disagree with government. But it's pretty clear that all of the richest people throughout history have relied on the government to get there. Most were monarchs, emperors and aristocrats after all, or had the power to attempt to become as much if they accumulated enough wealth to challenge their status.

In a truly free market, there is a point at which you cannot secure that kind of wealth, because your competition has learned how to adapt or because there is nothing stopping another from taking it from you. This is how governments began in the first place, to secure the interests of those with the power to raise an army.

Not that government is bad as a rule. It's a tool like any other. The problem is when government is used to secure the interests of the oligarchs first and the general populace second. This is a frequent theme throughout history and usually corrects itself around times of famine.


Edited by PatrickKn (02/17/20 02:41 PM)


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26490151 - 02/17/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You know I partly agree with you man.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26490468 - 02/17/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I know I responded to you but it was really just to everyone in general

The way conservatives and/or Libertarians (capital L) think they have some kind of corner on small government is absolute bullshit. Government has to be huge, powerful, and aggressive to defend on person’s private property from the entire rest of the world.


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: qman]
    #26490472 - 02/17/20 05:07 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
:popcorn:




Well, the fact of the matter is that GDP growth can be at the decent rate and the bottom 80% can have a deterioration in their standard of living. The US economy is a perfect example of that phenomenon.



The us living standard has not deteriorated. its done nothing but increase for decades.

The "poor" are much richer than they were in previous generations. I think you are confusing increasing income inequality with decreasing living standard.

the USA has a growing gap between the rich and the poor. but both groups are on the upswing. poor people are getting richer too, its just that rich people are getting richer faster.

income inequality does not matter at all. there are places where there is no inequality because everyone has nothing.

why does it matter if your neighbor has more money than you if your quality of life is improving? thats just jealousy. an ugly, ugly human emotion.

edit: It thought we couldnt use the US economy to prove or disprove the efficacy of free markets since it isnt a truly free market. Y have to hod yourself to your own standard, q. 


Edited by BANANA.MAN (02/17/20 05:34 PM)


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26490645 - 02/17/20 06:33 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

There’s more homeless on my block every week.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26490672 - 02/17/20 07:02 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, well never mind then. Thanks for that completely anaecdotal evidence. you've really shown me.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26490692 - 02/17/20 07:16 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Glad you finally learned a little something.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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Offlineqman
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 4
    #26490738 - 02/17/20 07:50 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
:popcorn:




Well, the fact of the matter is that GDP growth can be at the decent rate and the bottom 80% can have a deterioration in their standard of living. The US economy is a perfect example of that phenomenon.



The us living standard has not deteriorated. its done nothing but increase for decades.

The "poor" are much richer than they were in previous generations. I think you are confusing increasing income inequality with decreasing living standard.

the USA has a growing gap between the rich and the poor. but both groups are on the upswing. poor people are getting richer too, its just that rich people are getting richer faster.

income inequality does not matter at all. there are places where there is no inequality because everyone has nothing.

why does it matter if your neighbor has more money than you if your quality of life is improving? thats just jealousy. an ugly, ugly human emotion.

edit: It thought we couldnt use the US economy to prove or disprove the efficacy of free markets since it isnt a truly free market. Y have to hod yourself to your own standard, q. 




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_wages#/media/File:United_States_real_wages_(red,_in_constant_2017_dollars).png

Average real wages are still lower than the early 1970's.

https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

"the top 1% wage grew 138% since 1979, while wages for the bottom 90% grew 15%"

"middle-wage workers' hourly wage is up 6% since 1979, low-wage workers' wages are down 5%"

So when real wages are down for decades, what happen to US workers?  They become debt slaves for life!!!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-11/u-s-household-debt-exceeds-14-trillion-for-the-first-time

I'm sorry, but income inequality has everything to do with the deterioration in the stand of living for the working class.

GDP and income decoupled many decades ago.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States

As far as free markets are concerned, it doesn't exist. Does that mean we can't examine the US economic model? Not at all.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: qman]
    #26491659 - 02/18/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

A rising tide drowns those who have had their boat stolen by Bezos.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: qman]
    #26491663 - 02/18/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Plus 1 times infinity! I love it!


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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Jeff Bezos' estimated personal wealth, as of this morning, is about $129,500,000,000.00 [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26491675 - 02/18/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

this is a political thread


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