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footpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26488758 - 02/16/20 05:33 PM (4 years, 21 hours ago) |
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I also have bipolar disorder. Macro and microdosing helps to level me out and substantially reduce the severity of my manic/depressive swings. There's also unquantifiable therapeutic effects that help to improve your quality of life which promote auxiliary healthy behaviors like eating well and physical and mindfulness exercise. Such behaviors have had more positive impact on the managing of my disorder than anything else and I don't think I'd be as motivated to maintain them were it not for my use of psychedelics.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: CountHTML]
#26488855 - 02/16/20 06:26 PM (4 years, 20 hours ago) |
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It depends on the form of mental illness I'm sure, and some things that are classified as "mental illness" are just other ways of experiencing.
But to address the OP's search for "repeatability" there is one way I've found that works. Tripping daily while accommodating tolerance will rapidly get you to the point where each successive day is a continuation of the previous, and the quality/nature/profundity of the trip stabilizes markedly.
This requires adding 50% to the dose each day (even if skipping a day) until you reach a level about 4-5 times the baseline dose.
The first couple days are always spent with the ordinary sort of haven't-tripped-in-a-while stuff that most people like - the so-called "magic" where the slow accretion of ego-dominate thought patterns are disassembled and carted off, but after that it's clear sailing for as long as you want to continue it.
I've used this method for months on end, 3-5 days a week, for writing; as well as for my research programs into physical trip effects on reality. It would be counterproductive to have to deal with the whole ego-dissolution aspects while doing this, much better to have done with that and then continue on into the unknown.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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bertblack
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26488935 - 02/16/20 07:10 PM (4 years, 19 hours ago) |
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Bipolar 2 here. Never did any research in terms of risks, but goddamn psychedelics are gooood For someone who is suffering, psychedelics offer a glimpse of how good life can be. For someone with severe depression episodes that can last 6 months, it is a rare and enlightening experience 
-------------------- When in doubt - Bod's Repository
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JunkieXL
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: bertblack]
#26489013 - 02/16/20 08:15 PM (4 years, 18 hours ago) |
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hahah i'm sctizo and love drugs.
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Sardo
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26489307 - 02/17/20 01:34 AM (4 years, 13 hours ago) |
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Hi Bonstrum,
I think you are wise to think about metrics, but in my limited experience, I believe you will have to define your own metrics to some extent, since your journey is going be distinct from others.
Here are my thoughts as a 60-ish newbie.
I did mushrooms once 40 years ago and the trip was so traumatic I never did another drug again, until recently when after 15 years of chronic acute insomnia, I did MDMA therapy interspersed with small doses of mushrooms between sessions.
I used mushrooms for the first time after my 1st and 2nd MDMA session resulted in the excavation of some very traumatic childhood memories.
I used them exclusively to readdress some difficult emotions resulting from the trauma. On the first dose of only 1 gram of mushrooms my rage disappeared after addressing that issue. On the 2nd dose of 1 gram my doubts disappeared; and so went the following two 2 gram doses.
After the 3rd MDMA session I did a 3 gram journey which was also extremely reveling and helped resolve an issue related to the traumatic memory. 10 days later I did another 3 gram dose and I experienced NOTHING; which is to say I was experience serotonin "tolerance". Too much too fast. So now I have to wait at least a month before I do anything else: MDMA or mushrooms.
You might look into the issue of serotonin tolerance.
So each time I did mushrooms I was able to resolve issues that arose from my MDMA sessions and I have not done mushrooms for fun; only to help resolve trauma and I have had great success.
I have far less anger and anxiety and my violent dreams have stopped. My wife says I am more empathetic and easier to live with, and my daughter says I listen better. I have better memory of granular details and my life is just better.
So, for what it is worth from some one who is late to the game and not interested in hallucinations or God, mushrooms have been a game changer for me and you are going to have to find your own standard of measure, as I have.
From what I have read and experienced, there is a frame work that can help avoid adverse events when doing mushrooms or other entheogen.
1. "Set and setting" as coined by Timothy Leary: one's mindset (shortened to "set") and the physical and social environment (the setting) in which the user has the experience.
2. Having a guide can be extremely helpful. In my case it was a licensed therapist to help me create a frame work to CONTAIN the experience.
There may be other factors that can lessen the risk of an adverse reaction and perhaps there those wiser and more experience than I who can provide some more guidance.
I should note that my MDMA sessions were guided with a therapist always present and the mushroom journeys were alone at night in a comfortable home setting. I started with very small doses and worked my way up.
I hope my experience has been helpful.
Edited by Sardo (02/17/20 01:37 AM)
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Bonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26489372 - 02/17/20 03:22 AM (4 years, 11 hours ago) |
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I assume you missed the post the other day where someone with bipolar had a manic breakdown then.
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Bonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26489375 - 02/17/20 03:24 AM (4 years, 11 hours ago) |
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That's interesting. I've never thought of tripping that often, how often do you do this?
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Bonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Sardo]
#26489379 - 02/17/20 03:31 AM (4 years, 11 hours ago) |
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That is fascinating Sardo.
My knowledge of MDMA therapy is limited to a few documentaries, but the idea of using that and psilocybin to process issues is intriguing.
I think you are right about developing a metric for myself, that's something I'm beginning to realise after this thread. I think I've realised that, if a harm reduction procedure could be established, it has to be entirely tailored to the individual.
I am relatively new to all this and something that has been hugely off-putting for me is the blatant disrespect and disregard for psilocybin. I know people who have taken the drug without a regard to safety, in any way, and they have been left much worse off than before they took it. I also have a close friend who would like to take it but they have suffered from mental issues in the past, so I'm trying to see if I can establish a procedure for them to follow that can avoid danger as much as possible.
Thanks for your input.
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footpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26489516 - 02/17/20 06:20 AM (4 years, 8 hours ago) |
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Someone with bipolar disorder can have a manic or depressive breakdown at any time. That's pretty much what designates someone with that disorder. Yes, something that alters your mind can be the catalyst. But so too can just about any life event. Being poor and bipolar will see you with a hell of a lot more of a tendency for a breakdown. Is there then a category of socioeconomic class that also falls into this set of safety prerequisites?
What's really unsafe is the ability for any therapist/psychiatrist to be able to administer these substances as they see fit based on a generalized set of circumstances/prerequisites. The unpredictability and individual reaction to these substances makes them something that is really best left to be discovered and explored of one's own volition. People who usually benefit from them usually find them, people who usually react poorly to them usually have them suggested.
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Bonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
#26489535 - 02/17/20 06:49 AM (4 years, 8 hours ago) |
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So because anything can trigger a breakdown, it's fine to take a substance that increases your chances of a breakdown?
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footpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26489541 - 02/17/20 07:07 AM (4 years, 7 hours ago) |
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Yes. It's just as fine as it is to approach other aspects of life that also increase your chance of having a breakdown, which can be innocuous as going to work. You can't use it as a distinguishing factor in what makes someone fit for psychedelic use.
Is it fine to give people federally-approved treatments that are known to increase the risk of adverse effects, including worsening the targeted affliction?
Edited by footpath (02/17/20 07:22 AM)
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Shr00mEater
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
#26489552 - 02/17/20 07:24 AM (4 years, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Bonstrum said: So because anything can trigger a breakdown, it's fine to take a substance that increases your chances of a breakdown?
Nah, being cautious is a good thing. But, as has been mentioned already, plenty of folks with diagnosis and life problems find a lot of value in tripping. Not all, of course. Some may experience exaggerated symptoms.
Quote:
footpath said: The unpredictability and individual reaction to these substances makes them something that is really best left to be discovered and explored of one's own volition. People who usually benefit from them usually find them, people who usually react poorly to them usually have them suggested.
I think this part of footpaths point is more interesting than wether all mental patients should be on drugs or not.
I am not sure that standardization to the length that your OP seem to indicate is realistic without some risk being present. Taking strong perspective shifting drugs is already a bit of risky behavior. Mitigating the obvious, by following general principles and adjusting on a case by case seems more appropriate than detailing and placing safeguards against anything that could possibly induce difficult thoughts or feelings in any person.
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footpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26489567 - 02/17/20 07:41 AM (4 years, 7 hours ago) |
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Right. The point is that it can't be used to distinguish a fit candidate. There is no fit candidate and mental abnormalities aren't distinguished enough from the rest to be considered any more or less fit.
These substances can cause permanent damage in people who, on paper, are in perfect health. And can cause permanent improvement in those with ailments. And vice versa. And everywhere in between.
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Shr00mEater
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
#26489592 - 02/17/20 08:02 AM (4 years, 6 hours ago) |
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No fit candidate. I agree. I always think anyone who has had a sufficient dose knows that already. No one is actually prepared regardless of how hard they try.
I do think OP is asking more about harm reduction rather than prevention tho. An example might be, hide the knives and close all open windows, or try not to scare the person having a crisis. Like general safety considerations, instead of trying to put gilded gates up around the the potential healing applications.
Or, if he really is claiming no one with a mental health issue should pursue a psychedelic experience..... well. Continue on with the debate. Lol
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GK-7
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Shr00mEater]
#26489651 - 02/17/20 08:58 AM (4 years, 6 hours ago) |
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After reading all reply, I know I was off base with my advice.
About tripping with a mental illness. It's your choice and only yours. If you are 30+ years old, you should know by now, how much your illness is disabling you and what kind of life you'll have if nothing change. At this point ask yourself, what are you willing to risk ( mentally speaking )and are you ready to pay the price if the trip goes wrong ?
You could read every forums, every books, every websites, you'll never find a simple answer.
My only advice about tripping when you have a mental illness, if you are not ready to go all-in with your mind don't do it.
And if you go deep and things start to take a path you don't like, re-center your eyes. It should help you.
Have a good day.
PS : If you want an healing trip. Trip a day when you are down.
Edited by GK-7 (02/17/20 09:02 AM)
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DJ Ed
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26489698 - 02/17/20 09:38 AM (4 years, 5 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Bonstrum said: I want something like this but not quite as safe as they are practicing. For example, they are usually dosing patients very low, whereas I would be taking a higher dose.
On the contrary, sir, the psilocybin studies are done using high or medium to high doses. 20mg or 30mg psilocybin. If you do the maths, 30mg is near as dammit 5g dried cubensis; some would call 5g cubensis a “heroic dose”, I.e. not a light dose.
The safety aspects of the studies are covered by screening out for individuals they want to study.
Hope this helps DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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footpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: GK-7]
#26489700 - 02/17/20 09:39 AM (4 years, 5 hours ago) |
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Quote:
GK-7 said: My only advice about tripping when you have a mental illness, if you are not ready to go all-in with your mind don't do it.
Definitely. Willingness is paramount to a cooperative interaction with these substances. But. The same can be said for those without mental illnesses. Anyone who puts up a fight might find themselves with an illness they didn't have before or an exasperation of a preexisting one.
Quote:
GK-7 said: PS : If you want an healing trip. Trip a day when you are down.
That's a toss-up.
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26490111 - 02/17/20 02:20 PM (4 years, 41 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
Bonstrum said: I assume you missed the post the other day where someone with bipolar had a manic breakdown then.
One counterexample doesn't disprove a trend. Are you perhaps extremely risk adversive? Because psychedelics are inherently risky, no matter what you might have come to believe, and some of that risk cannot be mitigated.
Although you may think you are being thorough with this long list of counter-indications, if you read widely about tripping experiences you would find that occasionally - for some people and for no obvious reason - bad results occur. But only occasionally. Classical psychedelics are extremely safe when consumed in unadulterated form.
Like anything else with inherent risk, if you choose to partake, you have to accept that there's some irreducible level of serious drawback, and if that bothers you that much, the standard advice is abstain.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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footpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26490134 - 02/17/20 02:30 PM (4 years, 31 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
Shr00mEater said: No fit candidate. I agree. I always think anyone who has had a sufficient dose knows that already. No one is actually prepared regardless of how hard they try.
I do think OP is asking more about harm reduction rather than prevention tho. An example might be, hide the knives and close all open windows, or try not to scare the person having a crisis. Like general safety considerations, instead of trying to put gilded gates up around the the potential healing applications.
Or, if he really is claiming no one with a mental health issue should pursue a psychedelic experience..... well. Continue on with the debate. Lol
I didn't intend to catch a snag on that point, but it did receive the challenge. It does stands in favor of the fact that there aren't any generalizations to be had specific to psychedelic use. Telling someone not to go outside or not to be around hazardous objects doesn't reduce harm any differently in a person on psychedelics than than it would in a person not on psychedelics. If you're tired and chopping vegetables, chances are equally as good that you'll cut yourself as they would be if you were under the influence of psychedelics. Arguably less. Arguably, if you were under the influence of psychedelics, you wouldn't even want to touch the knife. You'd just nom on that pepper whole. Depending on how high of a dose you took, you might just be catatonic on the floor in a totally different plane of perception.
Finding a distinct pattern to be able to declare certainty is almost impossible.
Circumstance. Individuality. Unpredictability.
Quote:
PrimalSoup said: Like anything else with inherent risk, if you choose to partake, you have to accept that there's some irreducible level of serious drawback, and if that bothers you that much, the standard advice is abstain. 
And that.
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26490150 - 02/17/20 02:35 PM (4 years, 26 minutes ago) |
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Quote:
Bonstrum said: That's interesting. I've never thought of tripping that often, how often do you do this?
Please include at least some of the post you're replying to (use the "quote" button not the "quick reply" button).
But if you mean what I think you mean this is an occasional thing, not more than once a year and not every year. Mostly because it takes beaucoup supply of mushrooms - tens of lbs at least - in the first place, and I really only grow them in the winter. So if I want to trip for a couple months in the summer - which I will this year (see my journals for more information about what this is all about) - I have to grow a lot.
If it were 50 trips at max tolerance that'd take about 200 x 50 = 10 kilos fresh weight of ordinary cubes, less of PE or more potent strains. I'm ramping up to produce that right now and it's a lot of work.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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