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OfflineBonstrum
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Repeatability in Tripping
    #26487903 - 02/16/20 05:38 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Scientific repeatability in one hand and psilocybin trips in the other.

Mash your hands together and that's what I'm curious about.

I'll start with a basic definition of what I mean by scientific repeatability:

Repeatability – describes how well a system or device can reproduce an outcome in unchanged conditions. In some applications, repeatability is more important than accuracy. If the system is repeatable, an error can be mapped and compensated for

an error can be mapped and compensated for

Errors. Mapped. Compensated. That is the gist of what I want to figure out.

Now, I know what you'll think, I know, no two trips are alike. And you're right.

But I want to establish a baseline set of procedures that can mitigate any possible negative experiences during a psilocybin trip.

Sidenote: I understand that dealing with negative aspects of your life during a trip is actually an important part of the process, sometimes. However, the severity of these negative experiences can, I believe, be influenced by dealing with the variables. My quest is not to eliminate the possibility of having a "bad" trip (I find that "bad" is quite a loaded word, meaning very different things to different people), but rather to increase the likelihood of a good trip and a person being able to cope with a trip. I'll attempt to do this by identifying "errors", "mapping" them, and then "compensating" for them.

If you have doubts that this is at all possible, let me give you an example of variable control:

McKenna's Silent darkness method Vs tripping with your friends at a festival.

Now, yes, I suppose the intention of both of those methods could be different; one is typically used for a more introspective trip and the other for a more recreational, enjoyable trip.

But intention aside, both methods will produce vastly different experiences. Therefore there must be an element of control that we can exert over tripping, depending upon our desired intention.

Sidenote: I should probably mention that I am focused solely on an introspective, closed-eye trip in order to better the tripper's life.

So let's get down to brass tacks. Identification of "errors". What I classify as an error is a variable that could cause potential negative experiences. One example would be tripping around authority, that is most certainly an error.

I'll list some variables I can think of, aligned with my aforementioned intention. If you disagree with any of them, please do voice your opinion. If you can think of any "errors", please do comment. If I've missed something important, please give me your perspective.

Error Variables with their compensation:

Location of trip: Inside, preferably your own home, in a room you feel comfortable in.

Mental health: No mental illness (Bipolar etc), no family history of schizophrenia, not currently depressed, in a generally 'good' place.

Life circumstances: No major impending life decisions, relatively stable day-to-day life.

Diet: Generally healthy diet, good water intake, no sugar/oil/spice/dairy, no meat.

Physical health: Good level of physical fitness, no major injuries.

Sound: I am unsure about this one. I appreciate the power of silence but damn have I had some incredible experiences with the aid of music. I'll await your opinion on that one. Maybe if music was used, the control of the variable would be ensuring to choose songs with no lyrics, for example.

Vision: Complete darkness.

Temperature: Room temperature with the option to increase/decrease temperature (blanket etc).

Stimulants: Fight me all you want on this, but no drugs. Yes, weed is great. Yes, weed can make the trip great. But from my understanding of the default mode network, weed prevents the DMN from shutting down at the same time psilocybin is trying to shut it down. On the comedown, though? Sure.

Sleep: Well rested for a week prior to tripping.

Cleanliness: Not essential if the lights are off, but I find a sort of peace knowing that my space is clean.

Alone: Toughy. The value of trip sitters is clear. But the presence of another person while in silent darkness can be offputting.

I'd be interested to see what y'all think about negative thought loops in relation to this process. How would you go about tackling the variables that interact with this? Improve mental coping strategies? Meditation? Your thoughts would be valued.

Anyway, please let me know what you think about any of this.

:mushroom2:


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InvisibleHartford
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26487909 - 02/16/20 05:54 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with everything, except these two

Quote:

Mental health: No mental illness (Bipolar etc), no family history of schizophrenia, not currently depressed, in a generally 'good' place.

Life circumstances: No major impending life decisions, relatively stable




People with major life decisions to make are the primary beneficiaries of the psychedelic perspective. People classified mentally unstable are the most promising catalysts for good kinds of change.

Now ask yourself this: Am I trying to guard against the worst case scenario while simultaneously preventing the best case scenario? Because you can't do both.


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InvisibleGK-7
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Hartford]
    #26487913 - 02/16/20 06:17 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Hi,

I'm not sure what your asking for. But for me, the way I found to avoid negative thought loop it's to increase the dose. Between 2 and 3g if the shrooms are weak or not focus enough I can easily be stuck in a loop. Above 3g ( average potency ), it didn't happen. And I find that, "high" doses ( 3.5 - 4.5g ) make the meditation much easier for me than medium / small doses. Wich I found very nice for listening music or enjoying the nature.

Have a good day.


Edited by GK-7 (02/16/20 07:13 AM)


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26487929 - 02/16/20 06:53 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Lots of good points, and lots of great advice. I’d disagree / add to a couple of the errors...

As above, traumatic life experiences can be the most effective use of psychedelics. You already discussed “bad trips”, so exactly as you said; not bad.

Music; I’ve never done the silent darkness because I get so much from whatever music is on (unless it’s some angry hip hop, or metal say). For years I have steered towards minimal lyrics, but I no longer believe this to be necessary. Recent posts on here allude to using the lyrics in songs to help steer you toward the archetypal emotiins that can be reached on mushrooms.

Finally my thoughts on total darkness.....I always at the minimum have a black light on, and usually also some mood lighting. And if the trip gets particularly scary / challenging, I’ll turn more lights on which helps ground me. No, when you’re in the midst of CEVs and just want a momentary break, if you open your eyes to a pitch black room, the CEVs instantly become OEVs, so basically there is no respite. Eye patches can create the darkness, but allow you to also see the light....

But when all is said and done, OP, no matter how rigorous your preparations, your set, setting and dose, there will always be those trips that catch you off guard.

Mush love,
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26488033 - 02/16/20 08:59 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Nothing can guarantee any sort of repeatability and I'd be hard pressed to even say encourage it.
Homogenizing the psychedelic experience totally devalues what makes the psychedelic experience worthwhile - individuality and circumstance.
Any one at any time can have any kind of experience.

Some people find comfort in clutter. Some people want to hear death metal. Weed is absolutely not great for many people. Some people like cheeseburgers, doritos, and mountain dew. Many people like the outdoors in the light of day. Depressed people with injuries in a state of upheaval can benefit most from these experiences.
All of those people in their varied circumstances can have valuable introspective experiences.
And, on the contrary, mentally unafflicted athletes on an unprocessed whole-food diet in a candlelit pillow-fort with tranquil music playing can have extremely distressing experiences.

There is no categorization to be done. Quite frankly, that's what makes these substances so important - they can be for anyone.
Now that shouldn't be interpreted as 'everyone can benefit.' But I don't think there's any equipping that can guarantee any sort of experience.


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
    #26488049 - 02/16/20 09:11 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Absolutely agree, footpath. On your final point about no amount of equipping can guarantee a particular trip, I would add the following. I recently posted elsewhere similar, that in certain scenarios, and today in certain of the psilocybin studies, the trips have been guided towards effecting a mystical experience. The stats certainly from the recent studies show (though no idea on the data from the 60s, 70s), that the vast “majority” had mystical experiences. A very few had “bad” experiences. And a few had non-descript.

So absolutely, you can not guarantee a particular style of trip, but you can increase your chances of a particular style by.....yes; set, setting, and dose ✊🏻

❤️
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26488089 - 02/16/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

For sure.
Just like taste in food, interests, preferences in climate or scenery, etc.
You have to explore your own intuitions and discover what most often works for you.

Just because the majority of people like a nice day at the beach doesn't mean it's for everyone.


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
    #26488139 - 02/16/20 10:13 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think what I have a problem with (not a real problem, you understand, I’m just rubbish at writing!), is not letting go when a trip is unexpectedly strong. Let me explain......

I get variable strength trips from my multi spore grows. That’s understood. But I get fairly regular strength trips, with occasional poor, and occasional wtf!

Now if I was dosing for an “ego death” trip, I.e. 5+ dry grams, you’re “ready” for the intense come up, and the concurrent fear.

But when a 3.8g dry B+ dose for some reason hits like 15+ dry grams....... I never have the strength of mind to realise it; that this is an opportunity to go real deep, and learn something profound for my life going forwards.

No, I always resort to “survival mode”; lights on, wifey contacted, music:mShpongle, or none at all, head generally in hands, and asking; “am I dying?”, “have we any Valium?”

Am I weak / unusual in this respect? Would appreciate your thoughts.....

❤️
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26488232 - 02/16/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No, Don’t get hung up on being weak, or strong.

Member the “no bad trips” discussion?

Well, Yeah, what you describe is what I tend to think people, in general, mean when they use the term. Some unexpected thing is occurring. It’s no ones fault when it happens, there isn’t blame or shame involved, except what you attach to it. Shit just grabs you by the metaphorical balls sometimes. IME, it’s just the way of the mushroom. :shrug:  sometimes, you are able to pull out of it and skyrocket yourself into divine realms, that’s awesome, other times, you are subsumed into madness, chaos and fear. that’s ok too... it will be over soon enough and you will survive to tell the tale.

One of the ah-ha moments I had early in my tripping career was confronting my fear of going crazy, or being so deep I can’t get out, etc... once I had gone over the edge a few times, wether tripping or in ordinary life experience, after awhile the fear of never coming back to sanity faded away and was replaced with a type of confidence in the flexible and resilient nature of my own mind. This may be hubris on my part. IF(big if) I notice myself getting worried about the intensity getting strong when I wasn’t expecting it, I do my best to let it be what it is. I know that’ is way too easy to say, and very hard to do when the  demons are crawling up out of the floorboards.

Maybe you coulda, shoulda, woulda done something different, or you could swear, promise and claim emphatically that you will do something different next time... but, the truth is, that’s how it goes sometimes. Being anxious is ok, you should be a little nervous about filling your head full of drugs that could potentially reorientate your entire construct in just a single dose.

It’s all a journey, there is no right way, if you meet someone who says they know exactly how you should get there from here, don’t believe them. Everyone is always practicing, there are no masters.

Lol, Now I’m rambling pet philosophies now.
*sets the weed pipe down*
That’s enough of that.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26488245 - 02/16/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, one more

Think of this: would you revere shrooms as much as you do if they had always given you what you expected? Isn’t the unpredictable nature of a trip also the very essence of its healing power that entrances us so?

Imagine how blind you would be, if you had only stared into bright lights without any shadow of darkness to provide such a contrast that it allows the image of things to appear more clearly.


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26488299 - 02/16/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You speak such beautiful words, shr00mEater,

Really, I’m almost obverwhelmed ✊🏻

Yeah I have a long history with mushrooms, which started 33 years ago! But there was a 28 year gap between 20 and 48.......

In between, a period where my wife and I thought we couldn’t have children; we went on a rave,festival, ecstasy, mdma binge. It was a wild exciting period. No ties, loads of money, and nothing to live for but ourselves! The first time I took ecstacy with my wife and bestie, I remember saying; “this is just like LSD, but so much bette because there is no fear!”

How wrong I was! Mdma and ecstacy are such a bad recreational drug in so many ways. Therapeutic use, yes I can get it. But not recreational; too damaging with repeated use.

But here I am again, back with a lifetime friend, the mushroom. Even though I didn’t dose for almost 30 years, I NEVER stopped thinking about them. Now I firmly believe that whatever the mushrooms through at you, IS ENTIRELY WORTH IT.

Mush love brother
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26488325 - 02/16/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Think of this: would you revere shrooms as much as you do if they had always given you what you expected? Isn’t the unpredictable nature of a trip also the very essence of its healing power that entrances us so?




Spot on.
I've eaten psilocybin mushrooms hundreds of times and I still don't know what the hell I'm in for each time.
Some will hold similarities and I can roughly gauge how an experience will be (for me) based on given factors. But there are too many factors to have any solid expectations.
It's quite the unending maze, your mind unchained.


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OfflineBonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Hartford]
    #26488514 - 02/16/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I can appreciate the benefit of using psilocybin in the midst of a major life decision. I was a little on the fence for that one.

I disagree with you about people who are mentally unstable, though, depending upon the type of mental instability. Yes, there is great potential for healing but the risks far outweigh the benefits.

Your last point is quite insightful, I suppose you cannot do both. I guess I am trying to safeguard against the worst-case scenario.


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OfflineBonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: GK-7]
    #26488516 - 02/16/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for that, I'll take that on board.


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OfflineBonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
    #26488524 - 02/16/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I suppose then that my original description of what I am interested in is inaccurate. Rather than looking to homogenize the experience, I am looking to guard against worst-case scenarios.

I appreciate also that everyone is different in terms of what comforts them, for example. However, a general set of procedures to mitigate danger is not impossible. There will always be people whose comfort lies on the far ends of the bell curve, but the majority of people will be able to benefit from a general set of procedures.


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OfflineBonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26488527 - 02/16/20 02:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

An example of repeatability in terms of safeguarding against worst-case scenarios would be the current application of mushrooms in mental health therapy.

People are initially screened to ensure that they will be safe.

They are then taken through a set of procedures.

I want something like this but not quite as safe as they are practicing. For example, they are usually dosing patients very low, whereas I would be taking a higher dose.

So I'm after a set of procedures that can ensure as much safety as possible on a relatively high dose.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26488534 - 02/16/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bonstrum said:
Mental health: No mental illness (Bipolar etc), no family history of schizophrenia, not currently depressed, in a generally 'good' place.




With due respect, fuck that.  I had bipolar 2 before I started tripping about 40 years ago and I still have it after more than a thousand times down the rabbit hole.  My trips CAN be very repeatable provided set and setting, dosage, and tolerance, and intention remains the same.  That means a controlled environment, doses averaged out even if drawn from isolates, consistent preparation as tea from fresh fruits, and a consistent ritual for consumption.

I've been doing this for a research project of my own for quite a while and it requires the trips to play out similarly in order to isolate the physical affects on the environment that I'm after. :shrug:


--------------------

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Edited by PrimalSoup (02/16/20 02:52 PM)


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OfflineBonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26488553 - 02/16/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I get where you're coming from but not everyone with bipolar could be so lucky. If you do the research and you deem it be worth the risks, then by all means. But would you suggest it to someone else with bipolar?


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26488671 - 02/16/20 04:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I don't consider myself lucky at all in that regard, and I never did any research, because...there never was any back in the day. :lol:  But the vast majority of people with bipolar disorder who trip and post here disagree with you.  I think your "criteria" are in many ways misguided.

There's far more variation and circumstantial causes to dangerous trip outcomes than you seem to realize.  Your "criteria" appear to be drawn from how state funded research studies weed out candidates who might skew their desired results than realistic considerations, and thus affect their future status.

Sorry now you've drawn my ire and that wasn't my intent. :laugh2: 

You seem fairly inexperienced and there's nothing wrong with that.  But trying to control an experience as wide ranging as tripping generally is without sufficient experience doing it to recognize what really matters is asking to have your ass handed to you in the middle of an unexpected outcome.  No amount of planning will prevent that - it's a matter of experience and of having already gone through all those kinds of experiences, nothing more, nothing less.

And yes of course I've suggested it to many people with bipolar, both in these forums and in real life.  Nobody has come back yet with a horror story, they pretty uniformly report success and handling the symptoms.  There are other ways to mitigate the worst symptoms of bipolar but none apparently as successful as tryptamines.  IME and that of many others.

FWIW, harm reduction isn't the same thing as harm avoidance. :shrug:

edit - OK that's what I mostly meant to say. :cookiemonster:


--------------------

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Edited by PrimalSoup (02/16/20 04:36 PM)


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Hartford]
    #26488744 - 02/16/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

People with mental instability do seem to be big contributors especially in music but it’s hard to draw that line of where pushing harder will unlock their potential or shatter them irreparably.

Not to be glamorized.


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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26488758 - 02/16/20 05:33 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I also have bipolar disorder.
Macro and microdosing helps to level me out and substantially reduce the severity of my manic/depressive swings.
There's also unquantifiable therapeutic effects that help to improve your quality of life which promote auxiliary healthy behaviors like eating well and physical and mindfulness exercise. Such behaviors have had more positive impact on the managing of my disorder than anything else and I don't think I'd be as motivated to maintain them were it not for my use of psychedelics.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: CountHTML]
    #26488855 - 02/16/20 06:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

It depends on the form of mental illness I'm sure, and some things that are classified as "mental illness" are just other ways of experiencing.

But to address the OP's search for "repeatability" there is one way I've found that works.  Tripping daily while accommodating tolerance will rapidly get you to the point where each successive day is a continuation of the previous, and the quality/nature/profundity of the trip stabilizes markedly.

This requires adding 50% to the dose each day (even if skipping a day) until you reach a level about 4-5 times the baseline dose.

The first couple days are always spent with the ordinary sort of haven't-tripped-in-a-while stuff that most people like - the so-called "magic" where the slow accretion of ego-dominate thought patterns are disassembled and carted off, but after that it's clear sailing for as long as you want to continue it.

I've used this method for months on end, 3-5 days a week, for writing; as well as for my research programs into physical trip effects on reality.  It would be counterproductive to have to deal with the whole ego-dissolution aspects while doing this, much better to have done with that and then continue on into the unknown. :awesomenod:


--------------------

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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26488935 - 02/16/20 07:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Bipolar 2 here. Never did any research in terms of risks, but goddamn psychedelics are gooood :tongue2: For someone who is suffering, psychedelics offer a glimpse of how good life can be. For someone with severe depression episodes that can last 6 months, it is a rare and enlightening experience :thumbup::bigblunt:


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: bertblack]
    #26489013 - 02/16/20 08:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

hahah i'm sctizo and love drugs.


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26489307 - 02/17/20 01:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Hi Bonstrum,

I think you are wise to think about metrics, but in my limited experience, I believe you will have to define your own metrics to some extent, since your journey is going be distinct from others.

Here are my thoughts as a 60-ish newbie.

I did mushrooms once 40 years ago and the trip was so traumatic I never did another drug again, until recently when after 15 years of chronic acute insomnia,  I did MDMA therapy interspersed with small doses of mushrooms between sessions.

I used mushrooms for the first time after my 1st and 2nd MDMA session resulted in the excavation of some very traumatic childhood memories.

I used them exclusively to readdress some difficult emotions resulting from the trauma. On the first dose of only 1 gram of mushrooms my rage disappeared after addressing that issue. On the 2nd dose of 1 gram my doubts disappeared; and so went the following two 2 gram doses.

After the 3rd MDMA session I did a 3 gram journey which was also extremely reveling and helped resolve an issue related to the traumatic memory.  10 days later I did another 3 gram dose and I experienced NOTHING; which is to say I was experience serotonin "tolerance". Too much too fast.  So now I have to wait at least a month before I do anything else: MDMA or mushrooms.

You might look into the issue of serotonin tolerance.

So each time I did mushrooms I was able to resolve issues that arose from my MDMA sessions and I have not done mushrooms for fun; only to help resolve trauma and I have had great success.

I have far less anger and anxiety and my violent dreams have stopped. My wife says I am more empathetic and easier to live with, and my daughter says I listen better. I have better memory of granular details and my life is just better.

So, for what it is worth from some one who is late to the game and not interested in hallucinations or God, mushrooms have been a game changer for me and you are going to have to find your own standard of measure, as I have.

From what I have read and experienced, there is a frame work that can help avoid adverse events when doing mushrooms or other entheogen.

1. "Set and setting" as coined by Timothy Leary: one's mindset (shortened to "set") and the physical and social environment (the setting) in which the user has the experience.

2. Having a guide can be extremely helpful. In my case it was a licensed therapist to help me create a frame work to CONTAIN the experience.

There may be other factors that can lessen the risk of an adverse reaction and perhaps there those wiser and more experience than I who can provide some more guidance.

I should note that my MDMA sessions were guided with a therapist always present and the mushroom journeys were alone at night in a comfortable home setting. I started with very small doses and worked my way up.

I hope my experience has been helpful.


Edited by Sardo (02/17/20 01:37 AM)


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OfflineBonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26489372 - 02/17/20 03:22 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I assume you missed the post the other day where someone with bipolar had a manic breakdown then.


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26489375 - 02/17/20 03:24 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

That's interesting. I've never thought of tripping that often, how often do you do this?


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Sardo]
    #26489379 - 02/17/20 03:31 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

That is fascinating Sardo.

My knowledge of MDMA therapy is limited to a few documentaries, but the idea of using that and psilocybin to process issues is intriguing.

I think you are right about developing a metric for myself, that's something I'm beginning to realise after this thread. I think I've realised that, if a harm reduction procedure could be established, it has to be entirely tailored to the individual.

I am relatively new to all this and something that has been hugely off-putting for me is the blatant disrespect and disregard for psilocybin. I know people who have taken the drug without a regard to safety, in any way, and they have been left much worse off than before they took it. I also have a close friend who would like to take it but they have suffered from mental issues in the past, so I'm trying to see if I can establish a procedure for them to follow that can avoid danger as much as possible.

Thanks for your input.


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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26489516 - 02/17/20 06:20 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Someone with bipolar disorder can have a manic or depressive breakdown at any time. That's pretty much what designates someone with that disorder.
Yes, something that alters your mind can be the catalyst. But so too can just about any life event. Being poor and bipolar will see you with a hell of a lot more of a tendency for a breakdown. Is there then a category of socioeconomic class that also falls into this set of safety prerequisites?

What's really unsafe is the ability for any therapist/psychiatrist to be able to administer these substances as they see fit based on a generalized set of circumstances/prerequisites. The unpredictability and individual reaction to these substances makes them something that is really best left to be discovered and explored of one's own volition. People who usually benefit from them usually find them, people who usually react poorly to them usually have them suggested.


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
    #26489535 - 02/17/20 06:49 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So because anything can trigger a breakdown, it's fine to take a substance that increases your chances of a breakdown?


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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26489541 - 02/17/20 07:07 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yes. It's just as fine as it is to approach other aspects of life that also increase your chance of having a breakdown, which can be innocuous as going to work. You can't use it as a distinguishing factor in what makes someone fit for psychedelic use.

Is it fine to give people federally-approved treatments that are known to increase the risk of adverse effects, including worsening the targeted affliction?


Edited by footpath (02/17/20 07:22 AM)


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
    #26489552 - 02/17/20 07:24 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bonstrum said:
So because anything can trigger a breakdown, it's fine to take a substance that increases your chances of a breakdown?




Nah, being cautious is a good thing. But, as has been mentioned already, plenty of folks with diagnosis and life problems find a lot of value in tripping. Not all, of course. Some may experience exaggerated symptoms.



Quote:

footpath said:
The unpredictability and individual reaction to these substances makes them something that is really best left to be discovered and explored of one's own volition. People who usually benefit from them usually find them, people who usually react poorly to them usually have them suggested.




I think this part of footpaths point is more interesting than wether all mental patients should be on drugs or not.

I am not sure that standardization to the length that your OP seem to indicate is realistic without some risk being present. Taking strong perspective shifting drugs is already a bit of risky behavior. Mitigating the obvious, by following general principles and adjusting on a case by case seems more appropriate than detailing and placing safeguards against anything that could possibly induce difficult thoughts or feelings in any person.


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26489567 - 02/17/20 07:41 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Right.
The point is that it can't be used to distinguish a fit candidate.
There is no fit candidate and mental abnormalities aren't distinguished enough from the rest to be considered any more or less fit.

These substances can cause permanent damage in people who, on paper, are in perfect health.
And can cause permanent improvement in those with ailments.
And vice versa.
And everywhere in between.


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
    #26489592 - 02/17/20 08:02 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No fit candidate. I agree. I always think anyone who has had a sufficient dose knows that already. No one is actually prepared regardless of how hard they try.

I do think OP is asking more about harm reduction rather than prevention tho.
An example might be, hide the knives and close all open windows, or try not to scare the person having a crisis. Like general safety considerations, instead of trying to put gilded gates up around the the potential healing applications.

Or, if he really is claiming no one with a mental health issue should pursue a psychedelic experience..... well. Continue on with the debate. Lol


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26489651 - 02/17/20 08:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

After reading all reply, I know I was off base with my advice.

About tripping with a mental illness. It's your choice and only yours. If you are 30+ years old, you should know by now, how much your illness is disabling you and what kind of life you'll have if nothing change. At this point ask yourself, what are you willing to risk ( mentally speaking )and are you ready to pay the price if the trip goes wrong ?

You could read every forums, every books, every websites, you'll never find a simple answer.

My only advice about tripping when you have a mental illness, if you are not ready to go all-in with your mind don't do it.

And if you go deep and things start to take a path you don't like, re-center your eyes. It should help you.

Have a good day.

PS : If you want an healing trip. Trip a day when you are down.


Edited by GK-7 (02/17/20 09:02 AM)


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26489698 - 02/17/20 09:38 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bonstrum said:
I want something like this but not quite as safe as they are practicing. For example, they are usually dosing patients very low, whereas I would be taking a higher dose.




On the contrary, sir, the psilocybin studies are done using high or medium to high doses. 20mg or 30mg psilocybin. If you do the maths, 30mg is near as dammit 5g dried cubensis; some would call 5g cubensis a “heroic dose”, I.e. not a light dose.

The safety aspects of the studies are covered by screening out for individuals they want to study.

Hope this helps
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
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Offlinefootpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: GK-7]
    #26489700 - 02/17/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

GK-7 said:
My only advice about tripping when you have a mental illness, if you are not ready to go all-in with your mind don't do it.




Definitely. Willingness is paramount to a cooperative interaction with these substances.
But. The same can be said for those without mental illnesses.
Anyone who puts up a fight might find themselves with an illness they didn't have before or an exasperation of a preexisting one.

Quote:

GK-7 said:
PS : If you want an healing trip. Trip a day when you are down.



That's a toss-up.


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26490111 - 02/17/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bonstrum said:
I assume you missed the post the other day where someone with bipolar had a manic breakdown then.




One counterexample doesn't disprove a trend.  Are you perhaps extremely risk adversive?  Because psychedelics are inherently risky, no matter what you might have come to believe, and some of that risk cannot be mitigated.

Although you may think you are being thorough with this long list of counter-indications, if you read widely about tripping experiences you would find that occasionally - for some people and for no obvious reason - bad results occur.  But only occasionally.  Classical psychedelics are extremely safe when consumed in unadulterated form.

Like anything else with inherent risk, if you choose to partake, you have to accept that there's some irreducible level of serious drawback, and if that bothers you that much, the standard advice is abstain. :shrug:


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26490134 - 02/17/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
No fit candidate. I agree. I always think anyone who has had a sufficient dose knows that already. No one is actually prepared regardless of how hard they try.

I do think OP is asking more about harm reduction rather than prevention tho.
An example might be, hide the knives and close all open windows, or try not to scare the person having a crisis. Like general safety considerations, instead of trying to put gilded gates up around the the potential healing applications.

Or, if he really is claiming no one with a mental health issue should pursue a psychedelic experience..... well. Continue on with the debate. Lol




I didn't intend to catch a snag on that point, but it did receive the challenge.
It does stands in favor of the fact that there aren't any generalizations to be had specific to psychedelic use.
Telling someone not to go outside or not to be around hazardous objects doesn't reduce harm any differently in a person on psychedelics than than it would in a person not on psychedelics.
If you're tired and chopping vegetables, chances are equally as good that you'll cut yourself as they would be if you were under the influence of psychedelics. Arguably less. Arguably, if you were under the influence of psychedelics, you wouldn't even want to touch the knife. You'd just nom on that pepper whole. Depending on how high of a dose you took, you might just be catatonic on the floor in a totally different plane of perception.

Finding a distinct pattern to be able to declare certainty is almost impossible.

Circumstance. Individuality. Unpredictability.
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Like anything else with inherent risk, if you choose to partake, you have to accept that there's some irreducible level of serious drawback, and if that bothers you that much, the standard advice is abstain. :shrug:



And that.


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
    #26490150 - 02/17/20 02:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bonstrum said:
That's interesting. I've never thought of tripping that often, how often do you do this?




Please include at least some of the post you're replying to (use the "quote" button not the "quick reply" button).

But if you mean what I think you mean this is an occasional thing, not more than once a year and not every year.  Mostly because it takes beaucoup supply of mushrooms - tens of lbs at least - in the first place, and I really only grow them in the winter.  So if I want to trip for a couple months in the summer - which I will this year (see my journals for more information about what this is all about) - I have to grow a lot. 

If it were 50 trips at max tolerance that'd take about 200 x 50 = 10 kilos fresh weight of ordinary cubes, less of PE or more potent strains.  I'm ramping up to produce that right now and it's a lot of work. :lol:


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
    #26490289 - 02/17/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

footpath said:
Telling someone not to go outside or not to be around hazardous objects doesn't reduce harm any differently in a person on psychedelics than than it would in a person not on psychedelics.
If you're tired and chopping vegetables, chances are equally as good that you'll cut yourself as they would be if you were under the influence of psychedelics. Arguably less.




I agree and would like to add that physical safety concepts don’t have to exclusively address physical threats. They seem to bleed into psychological safeguards as well. The example I am thinking of is when group tripping, it can help relax and ease the participants minds to know you took those extra precautions, especially if there is a new tripper in the group who is worried that they themselves might stab someone else, or end up naked in the streets. Etc.

Taking a blanket with you is another example of how a physical preparation can aid the mental side of things. I use this more innocuous example to show that the attempt to avoid being cold, or broadly speaking, to avoid discomfort, can result in having extra psychological tools, the blanket, at hand when needed.




Related but separate incident that glorifies tripping dangerously. :grin:

2nd time on acid, my stupid friend decided to scare the shit out of an anti-drug friend who was tolerating us that night. He had already expressed concern/anger about the possibility one of us would go crazy and murder him and his gf while we were on drugs... so, one thing led to another and around about 2am, my buddy says to me: hey, let’s get the knives out of the kitchen and go see what anti drug friend is doing. So, obviously I was on board. :crazy2:

It was slightly disturbing and probably not the best idea ever. He was startled a bit, eyes got a worried look in them said something like, “uhhhhh, what are the knives for?”  We couldn’t keep it together, busted up laughing. even anti-drug friend could see that we were in no shape to stab anyone to death. Not the wisest plan that ever came from being under the influence, glad he didn’t over react and stab one of us idiots. But, nobody got hurt. :shrug:


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26491233 - 02/18/20 06:41 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, unfortunately you can't keep people from idiocy and peer pressure.
Contrary to what people like to believe, psychedelics don't have a magic 'you're no longer a jackass' switch.
If there's a drive, people will figure out a way to be dumb.

Not to say that I haven't gotten into some really dumb shit, but I've never tripped around people who made me feel the need to lock down my kitchen.
I'm sure they exist, but I probably wouldn't want them in my kitchen regardless.
Even if it was in good tripping fun, if I were that sober friend, I'd have probably socked someone fucking around with me like that.

I do agree that providing comforts can mitigate a possible anxiety that might arise.
But I still can't say that it is unique to psychedelics.
I mean, shit, if I had the option of having a blanket at work right now, I'd probably be feeling a lot better about my day.
No matter how many comforts are provided, you can still have an agonizing psychedelic experience.
The way shadows are cast, smells, an itch on your eyelid, outside noises or frequencies, your heartbeat... anything can be a trigger to send you to the wrong place.
You can't hide the sharp objects in your mind.


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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath] * 1
    #26491493 - 02/18/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Agree entirely, but you’ll never beat a blanket! Arthur Dent learnt that in Hithchikers Guide to the Galaxy 😎


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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