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Bonstrum
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Repeatability in Tripping
#26487903 - 02/16/20 05:38 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Scientific repeatability in one hand and psilocybin trips in the other.
Mash your hands together and that's what I'm curious about.
I'll start with a basic definition of what I mean by scientific repeatability:
Repeatability – describes how well a system or device can reproduce an outcome in unchanged conditions. In some applications, repeatability is more important than accuracy. If the system is repeatable, an error can be mapped and compensated for
an error can be mapped and compensated for
Errors. Mapped. Compensated. That is the gist of what I want to figure out.
Now, I know what you'll think, I know, no two trips are alike. And you're right.
But I want to establish a baseline set of procedures that can mitigate any possible negative experiences during a psilocybin trip.
Sidenote: I understand that dealing with negative aspects of your life during a trip is actually an important part of the process, sometimes. However, the severity of these negative experiences can, I believe, be influenced by dealing with the variables. My quest is not to eliminate the possibility of having a "bad" trip (I find that "bad" is quite a loaded word, meaning very different things to different people), but rather to increase the likelihood of a good trip and a person being able to cope with a trip. I'll attempt to do this by identifying "errors", "mapping" them, and then "compensating" for them.
If you have doubts that this is at all possible, let me give you an example of variable control:
McKenna's Silent darkness method Vs tripping with your friends at a festival.
Now, yes, I suppose the intention of both of those methods could be different; one is typically used for a more introspective trip and the other for a more recreational, enjoyable trip.
But intention aside, both methods will produce vastly different experiences. Therefore there must be an element of control that we can exert over tripping, depending upon our desired intention.
Sidenote: I should probably mention that I am focused solely on an introspective, closed-eye trip in order to better the tripper's life.
So let's get down to brass tacks. Identification of "errors". What I classify as an error is a variable that could cause potential negative experiences. One example would be tripping around authority, that is most certainly an error.
I'll list some variables I can think of, aligned with my aforementioned intention. If you disagree with any of them, please do voice your opinion. If you can think of any "errors", please do comment. If I've missed something important, please give me your perspective.
Error Variables with their compensation:
Location of trip: Inside, preferably your own home, in a room you feel comfortable in.
Mental health: No mental illness (Bipolar etc), no family history of schizophrenia, not currently depressed, in a generally 'good' place.
Life circumstances: No major impending life decisions, relatively stable day-to-day life.
Diet: Generally healthy diet, good water intake, no sugar/oil/spice/dairy, no meat.
Physical health: Good level of physical fitness, no major injuries.
Sound: I am unsure about this one. I appreciate the power of silence but damn have I had some incredible experiences with the aid of music. I'll await your opinion on that one. Maybe if music was used, the control of the variable would be ensuring to choose songs with no lyrics, for example.
Vision: Complete darkness.
Temperature: Room temperature with the option to increase/decrease temperature (blanket etc).
Stimulants: Fight me all you want on this, but no drugs. Yes, weed is great. Yes, weed can make the trip great. But from my understanding of the default mode network, weed prevents the DMN from shutting down at the same time psilocybin is trying to shut it down. On the comedown, though? Sure.
Sleep: Well rested for a week prior to tripping.
Cleanliness: Not essential if the lights are off, but I find a sort of peace knowing that my space is clean.
Alone: Toughy. The value of trip sitters is clear. But the presence of another person while in silent darkness can be offputting.
I'd be interested to see what y'all think about negative thought loops in relation to this process. How would you go about tackling the variables that interact with this? Improve mental coping strategies? Meditation? Your thoughts would be valued.
Anyway, please let me know what you think about any of this.
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Hartford
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26487909 - 02/16/20 05:54 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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I agree with everything, except these two
Quote:
Mental health: No mental illness (Bipolar etc), no family history of schizophrenia, not currently depressed, in a generally 'good' place.
Life circumstances: No major impending life decisions, relatively stable
People with major life decisions to make are the primary beneficiaries of the psychedelic perspective. People classified mentally unstable are the most promising catalysts for good kinds of change.
Now ask yourself this: Am I trying to guard against the worst case scenario while simultaneously preventing the best case scenario? Because you can't do both.
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GK-7
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Hartford]
#26487913 - 02/16/20 06:17 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Hi,
I'm not sure what your asking for. But for me, the way I found to avoid negative thought loop it's to increase the dose. Between 2 and 3g if the shrooms are weak or not focus enough I can easily be stuck in a loop. Above 3g ( average potency ), it didn't happen. And I find that, "high" doses ( 3.5 - 4.5g ) make the meditation much easier for me than medium / small doses. Wich I found very nice for listening music or enjoying the nature.
Have a good day.
Edited by GK-7 (02/16/20 07:13 AM)
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DJ Ed
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26487929 - 02/16/20 06:53 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Lots of good points, and lots of great advice. I’d disagree / add to a couple of the errors...
As above, traumatic life experiences can be the most effective use of psychedelics. You already discussed “bad trips”, so exactly as you said; not bad.
Music; I’ve never done the silent darkness because I get so much from whatever music is on (unless it’s some angry hip hop, or metal say). For years I have steered towards minimal lyrics, but I no longer believe this to be necessary. Recent posts on here allude to using the lyrics in songs to help steer you toward the archetypal emotiins that can be reached on mushrooms.
Finally my thoughts on total darkness.....I always at the minimum have a black light on, and usually also some mood lighting. And if the trip gets particularly scary / challenging, I’ll turn more lights on which helps ground me. No, when you’re in the midst of CEVs and just want a momentary break, if you open your eyes to a pitch black room, the CEVs instantly become OEVs, so basically there is no respite. Eye patches can create the darkness, but allow you to also see the light....
But when all is said and done, OP, no matter how rigorous your preparations, your set, setting and dose, there will always be those trips that catch you off guard.
Mush love, DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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footpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: DJ Ed]
#26488033 - 02/16/20 08:59 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Nothing can guarantee any sort of repeatability and I'd be hard pressed to even say encourage it. Homogenizing the psychedelic experience totally devalues what makes the psychedelic experience worthwhile - individuality and circumstance. Any one at any time can have any kind of experience.
Some people find comfort in clutter. Some people want to hear death metal. Weed is absolutely not great for many people. Some people like cheeseburgers, doritos, and mountain dew. Many people like the outdoors in the light of day. Depressed people with injuries in a state of upheaval can benefit most from these experiences. All of those people in their varied circumstances can have valuable introspective experiences. And, on the contrary, mentally unafflicted athletes on an unprocessed whole-food diet in a candlelit pillow-fort with tranquil music playing can have extremely distressing experiences.
There is no categorization to be done. Quite frankly, that's what makes these substances so important - they can be for anyone. Now that shouldn't be interpreted as 'everyone can benefit.' But I don't think there's any equipping that can guarantee any sort of experience.
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DJ Ed
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
#26488049 - 02/16/20 09:11 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Absolutely agree, footpath. On your final point about no amount of equipping can guarantee a particular trip, I would add the following. I recently posted elsewhere similar, that in certain scenarios, and today in certain of the psilocybin studies, the trips have been guided towards effecting a mystical experience. The stats certainly from the recent studies show (though no idea on the data from the 60s, 70s), that the vast “majority” had mystical experiences. A very few had “bad” experiences. And a few had non-descript.
So absolutely, you can not guarantee a particular style of trip, but you can increase your chances of a particular style by.....yes; set, setting, and dose ✊🏻
❤️ DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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footpath
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: DJ Ed]
#26488089 - 02/16/20 09:39 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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For sure. Just like taste in food, interests, preferences in climate or scenery, etc. You have to explore your own intuitions and discover what most often works for you.
Just because the majority of people like a nice day at the beach doesn't mean it's for everyone.
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DJ Ed
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
#26488139 - 02/16/20 10:13 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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I think what I have a problem with (not a real problem, you understand, I’m just rubbish at writing!), is not letting go when a trip is unexpectedly strong. Let me explain......
I get variable strength trips from my multi spore grows. That’s understood. But I get fairly regular strength trips, with occasional poor, and occasional wtf!
Now if I was dosing for an “ego death” trip, I.e. 5+ dry grams, you’re “ready” for the intense come up, and the concurrent fear.
But when a 3.8g dry B+ dose for some reason hits like 15+ dry grams....... I never have the strength of mind to realise it; that this is an opportunity to go real deep, and learn something profound for my life going forwards.
No, I always resort to “survival mode”; lights on, wifey contacted, music:mShpongle, or none at all, head generally in hands, and asking; “am I dying?”, “have we any Valium?”
Am I weak / unusual in this respect? Would appreciate your thoughts.....
❤️ DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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Shr00mEater
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: DJ Ed]
#26488232 - 02/16/20 11:24 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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No, Don’t get hung up on being weak, or strong.
Member the “no bad trips” discussion?
Well, Yeah, what you describe is what I tend to think people, in general, mean when they use the term. Some unexpected thing is occurring. It’s no ones fault when it happens, there isn’t blame or shame involved, except what you attach to it. Shit just grabs you by the metaphorical balls sometimes. IME, it’s just the way of the mushroom. sometimes, you are able to pull out of it and skyrocket yourself into divine realms, that’s awesome, other times, you are subsumed into madness, chaos and fear. that’s ok too... it will be over soon enough and you will survive to tell the tale.
One of the ah-ha moments I had early in my tripping career was confronting my fear of going crazy, or being so deep I can’t get out, etc... once I had gone over the edge a few times, wether tripping or in ordinary life experience, after awhile the fear of never coming back to sanity faded away and was replaced with a type of confidence in the flexible and resilient nature of my own mind. This may be hubris on my part. IF(big if) I notice myself getting worried about the intensity getting strong when I wasn’t expecting it, I do my best to let it be what it is. I know that’ is way too easy to say, and very hard to do when the demons are crawling up out of the floorboards.
Maybe you coulda, shoulda, woulda done something different, or you could swear, promise and claim emphatically that you will do something different next time... but, the truth is, that’s how it goes sometimes. Being anxious is ok, you should be a little nervous about filling your head full of drugs that could potentially reorientate your entire construct in just a single dose.
It’s all a journey, there is no right way, if you meet someone who says they know exactly how you should get there from here, don’t believe them. Everyone is always practicing, there are no masters.
Lol, Now I’m rambling pet philosophies now. *sets the weed pipe down* That’s enough of that.
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Shr00mEater
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Registered: 10/17/18
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Ok, one more
Think of this: would you revere shrooms as much as you do if they had always given you what you expected? Isn’t the unpredictable nature of a trip also the very essence of its healing power that entrances us so?
Imagine how blind you would be, if you had only stared into bright lights without any shadow of darkness to provide such a contrast that it allows the image of things to appear more clearly.
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DJ Ed
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You speak such beautiful words, shr00mEater,
Really, I’m almost obverwhelmed ✊🏻
Yeah I have a long history with mushrooms, which started 33 years ago! But there was a 28 year gap between 20 and 48.......
In between, a period where my wife and I thought we couldn’t have children; we went on a rave,festival, ecstasy, mdma binge. It was a wild exciting period. No ties, loads of money, and nothing to live for but ourselves! The first time I took ecstacy with my wife and bestie, I remember saying; “this is just like LSD, but so much bette because there is no fear!”
How wrong I was! Mdma and ecstacy are such a bad recreational drug in so many ways. Therapeutic use, yes I can get it. But not recreational; too damaging with repeated use.
But here I am again, back with a lifetime friend, the mushroom. Even though I didn’t dose for almost 30 years, I NEVER stopped thinking about them. Now I firmly believe that whatever the mushrooms through at you, IS ENTIRELY WORTH IT.
Mush love brother DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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footpath
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Quote:
Shr00mEater said: Think of this: would you revere shrooms as much as you do if they had always given you what you expected? Isn’t the unpredictable nature of a trip also the very essence of its healing power that entrances us so?
Spot on. I've eaten psilocybin mushrooms hundreds of times and I still don't know what the hell I'm in for each time. Some will hold similarities and I can roughly gauge how an experience will be (for me) based on given factors. But there are too many factors to have any solid expectations. It's quite the unending maze, your mind unchained.
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Bonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Hartford]
#26488514 - 02/16/20 02:25 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Yeah, I can appreciate the benefit of using psilocybin in the midst of a major life decision. I was a little on the fence for that one.
I disagree with you about people who are mentally unstable, though, depending upon the type of mental instability. Yes, there is great potential for healing but the risks far outweigh the benefits.
Your last point is quite insightful, I suppose you cannot do both. I guess I am trying to safeguard against the worst-case scenario.
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Bonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: GK-7]
#26488516 - 02/16/20 02:26 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Thanks for that, I'll take that on board.
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Bonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: footpath]
#26488524 - 02/16/20 02:34 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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I suppose then that my original description of what I am interested in is inaccurate. Rather than looking to homogenize the experience, I am looking to guard against worst-case scenarios.
I appreciate also that everyone is different in terms of what comforts them, for example. However, a general set of procedures to mitigate danger is not impossible. There will always be people whose comfort lies on the far ends of the bell curve, but the majority of people will be able to benefit from a general set of procedures.
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Bonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26488527 - 02/16/20 02:40 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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An example of repeatability in terms of safeguarding against worst-case scenarios would be the current application of mushrooms in mental health therapy.
People are initially screened to ensure that they will be safe.
They are then taken through a set of procedures.
I want something like this but not quite as safe as they are practicing. For example, they are usually dosing patients very low, whereas I would be taking a higher dose.
So I'm after a set of procedures that can ensure as much safety as possible on a relatively high dose.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26488534 - 02/16/20 02:44 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Bonstrum said: Mental health: No mental illness (Bipolar etc), no family history of schizophrenia, not currently depressed, in a generally 'good' place.
With due respect, fuck that. I had bipolar 2 before I started tripping about 40 years ago and I still have it after more than a thousand times down the rabbit hole. My trips CAN be very repeatable provided set and setting, dosage, and tolerance, and intention remains the same. That means a controlled environment, doses averaged out even if drawn from isolates, consistent preparation as tea from fresh fruits, and a consistent ritual for consumption.
I've been doing this for a research project of my own for quite a while and it requires the trips to play out similarly in order to isolate the physical affects on the environment that I'm after.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
Edited by PrimalSoup (02/16/20 02:52 PM)
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Bonstrum
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26488553 - 02/16/20 03:00 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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I get where you're coming from but not everyone with bipolar could be so lucky. If you do the research and you deem it be worth the risks, then by all means. But would you suggest it to someone else with bipolar?
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Bonstrum]
#26488671 - 02/16/20 04:28 PM (4 years, 22 hours ago) |
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I don't consider myself lucky at all in that regard, and I never did any research, because...there never was any back in the day. But the vast majority of people with bipolar disorder who trip and post here disagree with you. I think your "criteria" are in many ways misguided.
There's far more variation and circumstantial causes to dangerous trip outcomes than you seem to realize. Your "criteria" appear to be drawn from how state funded research studies weed out candidates who might skew their desired results than realistic considerations, and thus affect their future status.
Sorry now you've drawn my ire and that wasn't my intent.
You seem fairly inexperienced and there's nothing wrong with that. But trying to control an experience as wide ranging as tripping generally is without sufficient experience doing it to recognize what really matters is asking to have your ass handed to you in the middle of an unexpected outcome. No amount of planning will prevent that - it's a matter of experience and of having already gone through all those kinds of experiences, nothing more, nothing less.
And yes of course I've suggested it to many people with bipolar, both in these forums and in real life. Nobody has come back yet with a horror story, they pretty uniformly report success and handling the symptoms. There are other ways to mitigate the worst symptoms of bipolar but none apparently as successful as tryptamines. IME and that of many others.
FWIW, harm reduction isn't the same thing as harm avoidance. 
edit - OK that's what I mostly meant to say.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
Edited by PrimalSoup (02/16/20 04:36 PM)
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CountHTML
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Re: Repeatability in Tripping [Re: Hartford]
#26488744 - 02/16/20 05:25 PM (4 years, 21 hours ago) |
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People with mental instability do seem to be big contributors especially in music but it’s hard to draw that line of where pushing harder will unlock their potential or shatter them irreparably.
Not to be glamorized.
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