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tangra07
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Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate?
#26480620 - 02/11/20 04:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have a rye grain bag, that has been colonizing for ever, about 2 months now, inoculated with a spore syringe. It is now a solid mass, but there are some crumbles and it is not completely white. On the bottom of the bag its very solid white / light yellowish, but on the top you can kind of see through the white and there are some chunks, which have crumbled.
So my question is, since I am going on vacation for 2 weeks, is it better to leave it to colonize further / deeper / better for 2 weeks or rather put it in coir / verm bulk substrate and hav it colonize that for 2 weeks and when I come home I can fruit?
This is what is looks like, unfortunately its hard to see:
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Haywire
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: tangra07]
#26481366 - 02/12/20 03:02 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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if it's not colonized by now (after 2 months), I don't think it will colonize completely in those two extra weeks. from what I can tell from the picture and your comment, is that it's contaminated. you can store in fridge and then spawn to bulk if you still want to.
-------------------- Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto My grows Outdoor patches
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tangra07
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: Haywire]
#26481898 - 02/12/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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What makes you think its contamed?
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ToldenGeacher
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: Haywire]
#26482014 - 02/12/20 01:32 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Haywire said: if it's not colonized by now (after 2 months), I don't think it will colonize completely in those two extra weeks. from what I can tell from the picture and your comment, is that it's contaminated. you can store in fridge and then spawn to bulk if you still want to.
Also curious what you see in the picture that says it's contaminated. 2 months does seem like a long time but from what I know (not much) the time to colonize is all over the place!
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Haywire
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: ToldenGeacher]
#26482994 - 02/13/20 01:16 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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there's a lot of condensation going on and inoculation with spore syringe to grain. If it were only cubensis mycelium, after two months, it would be a uniform white block. I see some different shades of white in there.
The good thing is that I can't see any metabolites but if you mention that the bottom is light yellowish that would be an indication of metabolites.
I cannot tell for sure but your post indicates it's not entirely cubensis mycelium.
-------------------- Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto My grows Outdoor patches
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tangra07
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: Haywire]
#26483462 - 02/13/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Isn't slight yellow and indication of mycelium "piss"? I got that on my shiitake bags too, and they turned out fine.
Here are some more pictures: https://imgur.com/a/9CKndMY
Edited by tangra07 (02/13/20 10:44 AM)
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Haywire
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: tangra07]
#26483680 - 02/13/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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metabolites are usually produced when the mycelium comes in contact with contaminants.
-------------------- Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto My grows Outdoor patches
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feldman114
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: Haywire]
#26483723 - 02/13/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ooof...lots of weird, incorrect info in this thead...
OP, you bag has been colonized for weeks now. Full colonization doesn’t mean a “solid block”. It just means myc is covering every grain. MS will always produce different shades of white because there are millions of spores in a syringe, so you have thousands of different cultures growing side-by-side.
That said, you shouldn’t be inoculating grain with spore syringes, especially so much grain at once. Learn agar.
My guess is that, if anything, it’s slightly bacterial. Spawn it now and you’ll be harvesting before spring comes.
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feldman114
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: feldman114]
#26483727 - 02/13/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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OP, where you at? (I spy a Billa shopping bag in your pic)
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tangra07
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: feldman114]
#26483916 - 02/13/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Ooof...lots of weird, incorrect info in this thead...
OP, you bag has been colonized for weeks now. Full colonization doesn’t mean a “solid block”. It just means myc is covering every grain. MS will always produce different shades of white because there are millions of spores in a syringe, so you have thousands of different cultures growing side-by-side.
That said, you shouldn’t be inoculating grain with spore syringes, especially so much grain at once. Learn agar.
My guess is that, if anything, it’s slightly bacterial. Spawn it now and you’ll be harvesting before spring comes.
So if I spawn it now to coir+gipsum+verm, wrap it and leave it for 2 weeks it will be OK? Or is it better to leave it like this or perhaps put it in the fridge? Cooling in the fridge seems to have mixed results, some people say it weakens the mycelium and it becomes easily contaminated after.
I am working on agar, got a SAB, mixed and PC'ed some agar, I will go with agar next time perhaps. But would that really make a big difference? Simply isolating a fast growing piece? Doesn't that waste a lot of time?
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feldman114
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: tangra07]
#26483932 - 02/13/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Agar CAN be used for isolation, but the primary purpose is testing and cleaning cultures. You can see bacteria and other contams very clearly on an agar plate. You transfer the cleanest looking piece to a new plate and presto - you got yourself a 100% clean culture (something a spore syringe will never be). It doesn’t slow you down because a clean culture will grow faster.
Just spawn it to coir (coir/verm/gypsum is fine) and put it in fruiting conditions. In 2-3 weeks you’ll see pins. No fridge, no wrapping it up for 2 weeks - these are outdated methods that can hinder your grow.
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tangra07
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: feldman114]
#26483983 - 02/13/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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So just put it in SGFC? I won't be able to keep high humidity and FAE, while I'm gone. Should I just spray it with water and hope it doesn't dry out too much for 2 weeks?
As for agar, I thought, that whoever is selling me the spores has probably a more sterile technique, than me. But now that I have a SAB I will give it a try.
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feldman114
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: tangra07]
#26484058 - 02/13/20 04:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you’re spawning, you shouldn’t be using an SGFC. Did you mean monotub?
Take a tote, pour in your grain and coir, mix thoroughly, add 1/2in layer of coir on top. That’s all there is to it. In 2 weeks you’ll come back to a nice pinset.
I almost never mist before first harvest.
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Haywire
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: feldman114]
#26484630 - 02/14/20 03:09 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Full colonization doesn’t mean a “solid block”.
that's not what I said. I said that if it has been colonizing for two months it would've turned in a solid block. I didn't say full colonization means a solid block.
Quote:
tangra07 said: On the bottom of the bag its very solid white / light yellowish, but on the top you can kind of see through the white and there are some chunks, which have crumbled.
the yellowish shine on the bottom is usually an indication of a contamination as a result of the mycelium producing metabolites. which is what his pictures in his following post clearly indicate.
Quote:
feldman114 said:
No fridge, no wrapping it up for 2 weeks - these are outdated methods that can hinder your grow.
refrigerating spawn is a method used by all spawn producers all over the world, sometimes upto a month. Freezing cultures to -80°C is used by spawn producers all over the world to preserve cultures.
I hardly think this is an outdated method. I have done this myself countless times without any loss in yields (proven with cubensis, lentinula and pleurotus monocultures).
The reason why saving it untill OP gets back is that in the worst case scenario OP will come back to a triched out, bacterial substrate. If OP saves the spawn and spawns to bulk when he gets back, he will at least learn something by looking at the colonization of the tub and perhaps learn to spot contaminants before they're pink, green or yellow.
-------------------- Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto My grows Outdoor patches
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MushkingMulah360
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: Haywire]
#26484716 - 02/14/20 05:38 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think Feldman was referring to cold shocking.
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feldman114
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: Haywire]
#26484734 - 02/14/20 05:52 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Haywire said: if it's not colonized by now (after 2 months), I don't think it will colonize completely in those two extra weeks. from what I can tell from the picture and your comment, is that it's contaminated. you can store in fridge and then spawn to bulk if you still want to.
It sure SOUNDS like you said it’s not colonized....
Metabolites after 2 months of colonization aren’t necessarily indicative of anything. And, if anything, it’s bacteria, which probably won’t bring on a contam before harvest.
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Haywire
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: feldman114]
#26484804 - 02/14/20 06:47 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
feldman114 said: It sure SOUNDS like you said it’s not colonized....
Metabolites after 2 months of colonization aren’t necessarily indicative of anything. And, if anything, it’s bacteria, which probably won’t bring on a contam before harvest.
I said IF it's not colonized. OP would have to judge that for himself. Maybe I assumed wrongly that OP was under the impression it's not entirely colonized. But why else would he let it colonize for 2 months.
Quote:
feldman114 said: Metabolites after 2 months of colonization aren’t necessarily indicative of anything. And, if anything, it’s bacteria, which probably won’t bring on a contam before harvest.
That is correct. When taking a look at the pictures in the following post though, it is very likely there is something going on that is bacterial.
Don't get me wrong, I've used bacterial spawn with success before. I have nothing against it, but I would prefer to use it when I'm present to follow up on the grow.
-------------------- Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto My grows Outdoor patches
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feldman114
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: Haywire]
#26484862 - 02/14/20 07:27 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Whatever you say, bud
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tangra07
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: feldman114]
#26485664 - 02/14/20 03:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thank you all for you input. This forum is awesome. I don't understand why forums are dying. Its so much better than censored bs on social media platforms. But I digress...
To address some of the input:
Its a solid block, but there are some chunks, which are not attached to the block. And its not completely solid white in color, you can see the grains, especially on the top.
I also made the mistake of breaking it up too often, not mixing it all at the beginning and my wife handled it uncarefully and probably caused some breakage, because I didn't tell her about the details.
So regarding the monotub, it still needs air holes right? I can make some holes and close them with micropore tape. Unfortunately I don't have the wooly-cotton stuff everybody seems to be using.
Regarding refridgeration, if it is safe to fridge it to 4C I would prefer to do that. However, some people here report, that after refridgeration their block turned out weak, growth was slow and it got contamed because of "weakened immune system" or is that bs?
There may be slight contamination of course. I did fire sterilize the needle, but I made the mistake to wipe it down with a paper towel drenched in a bleach solution in order to cool it down, which I later learned is unlogical. I also didn't have an injection port, instead I used electrical tape. So yeah, probably pleanty of mistakes and I also bought the bag with the substrate pre-sterilized, which was probably not pressure sterilized, but rather steam sterilized at best.
Edited by tangra07 (02/14/20 04:27 PM)
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Haywire
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Re: Grain bag: extra 2 weeks of colonization or bulk substrate? [Re: tangra07]
#26486573 - 02/15/20 06:14 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
tangra07 said: Thank you all for you input. This forum is awesome. I don't understand why forums are dying. Its so much better than censored bs on social media platforms. But I digress...
To address some of the input:
Its a solid block, but there are some chunks, which are not attached to the block. And its not completely solid white in color, you can see the grains, especially on the top.
I also made the mistake of breaking it up too often, not mixing it all at the beginning and my wife handled it uncarefully and probably caused some breakage, because I didn't tell her about the details.
So regarding the monotub, it still needs air holes right? I can make some holes and close them with micropore tape. Unfortunately I don't have the wooly-cotton stuff everybody seems to be using.
Regarding refridgeration, if it is safe to fridge it to 4C I would prefer to do that. However, some people here report, that after refridgeration their block turned out weak, growth was slow and it got contamed because of "weakened immune system" or is that bs?
There may be slight contamination of course. I did fire sterilize the needle, but I made the mistake to wipe it down with a paper towel drenched in a bleach solution in order to cool it down, which I later learned is unlogical. I also didn't have an injection port, instead I used electrical tape. So yeah, probably pleanty of mistakes and I also bought the bag with the substrate pre-sterilized, which was probably not pressure sterilized, but rather steam sterilized at best.
When you open the bag, smell the spawn. if it smells off, it's contaminated. You could still use it, that's up to you.
There's a couple of different monotubthreads going on: Spitballjedi (with holes), Bodhisatta (unmodified) and Pastywhyte (Micropore dial in). take your pick.
4°C is fine. just let it acclimatize before spawning it.
just learn from your mistakes and try to do everything right next time. at least you learned how not to do it.
Good luck!
-------------------- Ciao mamma, guarda come mi diverto My grows Outdoor patches
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