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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: laughingdog]
    #26480239 - 02/11/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You say "Consciousness" is a noun that refers to a process. This is analogous to other nouns such as "movement" and "computation".
Obviously consciousness is a function performed by brains, or at least nervous systems. "
You contradict Bernardo here--ok. And attempt to make a better definition.
I'm not convinced by your briefly worded suggestion.
I see no noun or object at all.
Does an ant or termite  colony have a mind or self or "Consciousness"? Yet the colony functions as if it did.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=termite+mounds+Africa&t=hz&iax=images&ia=images



I mean, "consciousness" is a noun. I don't see how this can be disputed by any English speaker. You can say "I have consciousness", but you can't say "I am consciousnessing".

As for the consciousness of insect colonies, I don't know. I don't find the idea unacceptable in principle. Whether a brain is a large collection of neurons, of ants, or of transistors is of little importance in my opinion. But I said above, until we can come up with a way to test for consciousness I think it's a pointless exercise.


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26480799 - 02/11/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Bernardo Kastrup doesn't seem to have a fundamental grasp of Computer Science nor Philosophy which he maintains a PhD. His commentary speaks more to the the absolute low state of academia and strict adherents to it than it does an insightful write-up. Consciousness could have done whatever it decided. Having no workable definition of even the slightest understanding of what it is as clearly demonstrated by Bernardo makes his world salad of an article pointless. He doesn't understand in the least what consciousness is but asserts wild and convoluted speculations on what it isn't and couldn't have done? Am I reading this right? I almost got a headache reading his world salad by the way. He posted pages and pages of nonsensical ramblings all to say : I have no clue what consciousness is or how computers function but here is my winded, overly verbose, and obtuse summary of what we already know about both....

I mean ok.

Quote:


DividedQuantum said: I think all he is saying there is that objective reality exists. That reality is not purely a subjective projection of our minds. This of course is somewhat against the mainstream at this point.





This is actually common sense currently and consensus and is clearly stated by anyone with a functional brain.
What special fantasy does Bernardo Kastrup live in where he feels this is some profound insight?

The article you posted was one of the hardest reads I've gone through this year.
I had to look the guy up because he sounded completed out of it...

Legit :
Quote:


Bernardo Kastrup's work has been leading the modern renaissance of metaphysical idealism, the notion that reality is essentially mental. He has a Ph.D. in philosophy (ontology, philosophy of mind) and another Ph.D. in computer engineering (reconfigurable computing, artificial intelligence). Bernardo has worked as a scientist in some of the world's foremost research laboratories, including the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) and the Philips Research Laboratories (where the "Casimir Effect" of Quantum Field Theory was discovered). He has authored many academic papers and books on philosophy and science, being a regular contributor to Scientific American and the Institute of Art and Ideas. His most recent book is The Idea of the World: A multi-disciplinary argument for the mental nature of reality. For more information, freely downloadable papers, videos, etc., please visit www.bernardokastrup.com.





> metaphysical idealism, the notion that reality is essentially mental
What? ....

I feel like if I read any more of his stuff my brain will become more scrambled than a bowl of spaghetti.
I have my qualms with those in the AI industry and I took issue with : Yoshua bengio recently calling philosophers who have weighed in on AI as being people who waste time playing around in wasteful mental gymnastics but after parsing this article.. Jesus christ, he appears to be correct at least in the case of Bernado Kastrup... What's shocking is this guy has a PhD in Computer science and still mistakes the forest for the trees.

How can people be soo blind to this problem and so married to mental frameworks that will get them nowhere?
Materialism? Isn't the end all be all.. it frames a portion of the problem. Stop writing 400 page books arguing about it and move on to other schools of thoughts that are better at framing/discussing the problem.

I'll never understand this this obsession with trying to cram every single thing under the sun under one -ism/-ist? It's borderline blind religion. Is this how people keep up long careers and write endless pages of books in philosophy?
:wtfno:

Good God.


Edited by r00tcmplx (02/11/20 06:35 PM)


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26480807 - 02/11/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it is deficient because it casts the experience as "in the skull" which is not the experience at all...

Usually no part of experiencing includes in the skull perception unless the person is trying to model consciousness which is very rare.

The contents and functioning of the mind in the brain is a conditioned reflection of what is not particularly in the skull - but rather reflections of all the sensible world.



Bernado's article linked in OP was probably one of the worst recent dissections of this topic I have ever read.
Deficient is an understatement. I feel like Bernado completely missed the mark and muddled a swath of far more clearer framings of the topic all to be controversial and promote himself.

The whole article could have been summarized in a single paragraph :
My name is Bernado and I have no clue what consciousness is.
There is objective reality and we make subjective internalization of it.
I have no clue how this is done but its a hard thing to approach. Even though I have a PhD in computer engineering and one in Philosophy, I have no clue how to marry the two into deeper understanding and the following is is my airing of my personal frustrations with this lacking...

I especially take issue with what I feel was a clear attempt by Bernardo to muddy the waters and obscure far more concise and established understanding. Reminds me of a recent debate I watched between an "AI specialist" and a more ontological philosopher AI specialist. The philosopher got absolutely destroyed not to say that the AI specialist wasn't full of it and off the mark as well.

And I just found that Bernado writes for Scientific American and has written countless and similar articles for them? Dam, things have fallen off in terms of quality.


Edited by r00tcmplx (02/11/20 06:36 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26480968 - 02/11/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

my favorite inference about consciousness derives from the loss of consciousness.

I know what that is in my life, and I take consciousness to be everything else.  (and yes, Veronica, it does have the character of a stream.)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26481050 - 02/11/20 08:46 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

That's not what's meant in this context, though. What you're referring to is an interruption of perception; when your mind temporarily disconnects from the outside world. The article is using "consciousness" to refer to the subjective experience of perception.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #26481171 - 02/11/20 10:31 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

InsultingLizard said:
That's not what's meant in this context, though. What you're referring to is an interruption of perception; when your mind temporarily disconnects from the outside world. The article is using "consciousness" to refer to the subjective experience of perception.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia



Yea and Bernando the author of the article  did a horrible job of muddying waters on a concept that is actually quite clear and is on workable terms. Literally reads as a person's personal frustration with not being able to move the ball forward thus writing a raging scorched earth article filled with babbling. I've read framings from other philosophers that are ten times better even those with critiques of established thinking.

Meanwhile not only does this guy have a PhD in Philosophy but one in Comp Sci. too and he's lost in both arenas?
:tryingnottodie:


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OfflineSexySmurff
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26481193 - 02/11/20 10:54 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

step outside of time flatlanders!


--------------------
Exalted is He from what they utter. Exalted is He from what they imagine. Exalted is He that exists without a place. Exalted is He that was there forever without a time or a beginning. Exalted is He that will be there forever without a time or an end. Exalted is He that will forever be praised. That is your God.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26481356 - 02/12/20 02:35 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Particles and fields, in and of themselves, have quantitative properties but no intrinsic qualities, such as colour or flavour. Only our perceptions of them—or so the materialist argument goes—are accompanied by qualities somehow generated by our brain.




Gold is valuable for the properties intrinsic to gold.

The quality isn't generated by the brain, it is picked up on by the brain, it is noticed and studied and recorded and reveled.

Like what good use can this piece of gold be put to? :sun:

Quote:

However, our phenomenal consciousness is eminently qualitative, not quantitative. There is something it feels like to see the colour red, which is not captured by merely noting the frequency of red light. If we were to tell Helen Keller that red is an oscillation of approximately 4.3*1014 cycles per second, she would still not know what it feels like to see red. Analogously, what it feels like to listen to a Vivaldi sonata cannot be conveyed to a person born deaf, even if we show to the person the sonata’s complete power spectrum. Experiences are felt qualities—which philosophers and neuroscientists call ‘qualia’—not fully describable by abstract quantities.




Our good consciousness is clearly qualitative, and rationally quantitative.

That something it is to see the colour of red is a specific wavelength of light that certain cones and rods in our eyes can detect. This is elementary, that no matter what you do Helen Keller was blind and would not be able to see red. As with a deaf person, they cannot hear.

Thanks to modern science there are colour blind correcting glasses and cochlear implants available.

Experiences are felt, but they are conveyed within environs.

Quote:

But as discussed above, qualities have no function under materialism, for quantitatively-defined physical models are supposed to be causally-closed; that is, sufficient to explain every natural phenomenon. As such, it must make no difference to the survival fitness of an organism whether the data processing taking place in its brain is accompanied by experience or not: whatever the case, the processing will produce the same effects; the organism will behave in exactly the same way and stand exactly the same chance to survive and reproduce. Qualia are, at best, superfluous extras.




Qualia, sentience and consciousness led to improved fitness via tool use.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #26481391 - 02/12/20 03:50 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

InsultingLizard said:

I mean, "consciousness" is a noun. I don't see how this can be disputed by any English speaker. You can say "I have consciousness", but you can't say "I am consciousnessing".

As for the consciousness of insect colonies, I don't know. I don't find the idea unacceptable in principle. Whether a brain is a large collection of neurons, of ants, or of transistors is of little importance in my opinion. But I said above, until we can come up with a way to test for consciousness I think it's a pointless exercise.




.    Exactly a verb (and one can say both experience & experiencing which are synonyms IMO) ) that has been turned into a noun. Consciousness in reality cannot be an object as objects are precisely that which is not conscious, as opposed to life and 'mind'.
.  This process is called nominalization or reification. I give the example : Where does your fist go, when you open your hand? Nominalization or reification is a trick of language that misleads us. 'Fist' should actually be a verb as it is a process, as it lasts only as long as the muscles (of the hand & forearm are actively contracting).
.  The consequence is that  we are told consciousNESS is an uncaused, eternal object, which is also disembodied, & independent, which i find absurd.
.    Even being alert without thinking, is an activity, as it does not last, and it only occurs while we are experiencING and feeling its active nature.
.    BK wants (like many others) to turn "consciousness" into an absolute, (where as I see it as interdependent with both 'self' (also not absolute) & 'mind') & put it on a pedestal, but I have been over many of these points previously, plus other objections to the article, and don't wish to repeat them all here now, when it is not necessary, to retype what is readily available, if anyone, were interested.


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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: laughingdog]
    #26481577 - 02/12/20 08:22 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Exactly a verb (and one can say both experience & experiencing which are synonyms IMO) ) that has been turned into a noun.



"Consciousness" is the adjective "conscious" with the suffix "-ness", which turns it into a noun.

Quote:

Consciousness in reality cannot be an object as objects are precisely that which is not conscious, as opposed to life and 'mind'.



Whether consciousness is an object or a process and whether "consciousness" is a verb or a noun are independent facts. Life is a process, but "life" is a noun.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #26481910 - 02/12/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

seems like this is a poorly defined word, one with little consensus, or rather a word that different camps of theorists and believers use to mean different things.

for me it is the experience of life as I said above:
Quote:

my favorite inference about consciousness derives from the loss of consciousness.

I know what that is in my life, and I take consciousness to be everything else.



the twist is that consciousness is an innate renonant and reflective ability of our brains, which can be inhibited by sleep or coma, and enhanced (i.e. made more resonant) by emotions, dreams and drugs.

this way of looking at it should not invite confusion.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26481985 - 02/12/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

my favorite inference about consciousness derives from the loss of consciousness.

I know what that is in my life, and I take consciousness to be everything else.




The loss of consciousness for me wasn't like sleep, because when you wake up from a night of sleep you first awake, and are aware of yourself within your room. It's being asleep and waking up within seconds.

From my coma experience the 'going to sleep' part is only fractionally remembered with intermittent memories, the waking up was a slow hazy phasing in over several hours and days.

The sleeping part, was like a flat lining heart, I wasn't dreaming or anything, it was a short moment of calm in my experience. Waking up was less so but I recovered well.

So if I know what inference can be derived from the loss of consciousness, I can take consciousness to be everything else, because my coma was the most absolute nothing I've ever felt, like a short calm nap.

But still so, I was not with any consciousness yet I was alive and performing a vast array of metabolic processes.

Can anyone else explain their view of what was left over when I was in a coma?
If I was without consciousness.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (02/12/20 11:02 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: sudly]
    #26482617 - 02/12/20 07:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

sudly this thread started with BKs articles which attempted to prove, theoretical aspects in regards to consciousness, most of us felt he bit off more than he could chew.

If you want to enjoy exploring the experimental and experiential research aspects, Oliver Sacks & Vilayanur Subramanian Ramachandran's books are very popular.

And the rubber hand illusion on you tube at:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rubber+hand+illusion%2C+science
and the body swap illusion  at:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=body+swap+illusion+

returning to the theoretical both
Donald Hoffman
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=interface+theory+consciousness

and
Stanislas Dehaene
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=+Stanislas+Dehaene%2C+

are more on the ball than BK


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: laughingdog]
    #26482799 - 02/12/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The stream is a concsious idea within consciousness.. observation.


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OfflineInsultingLizard
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: sudly]
    #26482906 - 02/12/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The loss of consciousness for me wasn't like sleep, because when you wake up from a night of sleep you first awake, and are aware of yourself within your room. It's being asleep and waking up within seconds.

From my coma experience the 'going to sleep' part is only fractionally remembered with intermittent memories, the waking up was a slow hazy phasing in over several hours and days.



Waking up isn't an on-off thing for everyone. Some people experience sleep paralysis, where they are fully conscious, but unable to move. And then there's sleepwalkers, who are asleep but behave is they were awake and may perform complex activities.

Quote:

sudly said:
Can anyone else explain their view of what was left over when I was in a coma?
If I was without consciousness.



While I do believe that your consciousness was completely shut off, the experience as you describe it is indistinguishable from simple amnesia. I had a concussion a few years ago and during the following 30-60 minutes in the car ride home I had several chunks were nothing was recorded. The only reason I know time was passing is because during the periods where I do have memory I recognized where I was along the route. I don't think I lost consciousness during those times, but honestly I have no way to know.

What was the cause of your coma, if you don't mind?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: InsultingLizard]
    #26482939 - 02/12/20 11:34 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Getting up out of bed may be different for people, but when you wake up in the morning, I at least recognise that I'm awake. I try going back to sleep but I know that I've woken up.

It was a medical complication.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26486271 - 02/14/20 10:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The only journal piece that was referenced in this article states in its abstract that,
Quote:

According to this view, consciousness emerged in evolution when organisms gained the ability to perform internal simulations using internal models,


 

And yet the title of the article is that consciousness cannot have evolved?!

Quote:

What is the biological advantage of having consciousness? Functions of consciousness have been elusive due to the subjective nature of consciousness and ample empirical evidence showing the presence of many nonconscious cognitive performances in the human brain. Drawing upon empirical literature, here, we propose that a core function of consciousness be the ability to internally generate representations of events possibly detached from the current sensory input. Such representations are constructed by generative models learned through sensory-motor interactions with the environment.

We argue that the ability to generate information underlies a variety of cognitive functions associated with consciousness such as intention, imagination, planning, short-term memory, attention, curiosity, and creativity, all of which contribute to non-reflexive behavior. According to this view, consciousness emerged in evolution when organisms gained the ability to perform internal simulations using internal models, which endowed them with flexible intelligent behavior. To illustrate the notion of information generation, we take variational autoencoders (VAEs) as an analogy and show that information generation corresponds the decoding (or decompression) part of VAEs.

In biological brains, we propose that information generation corresponds to top-down predictions in the predictive coding framework. This is compatible with empirical observations that recurrent feedback activations are linked with consciousness whereas feedforward processing alone seems to occur without evoking conscious experience. Taken together, the information generation hypothesis captures many aspects of existing ideas about potential functions of consciousness and provides new perspectives on the functional roles of consciousness.

Neuroscience of Consciousness, Volume 2019, Issue 1, 2019, niz016, https://doi.org/10.1093/nc/niz016
Published: 29 November 2019




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: sudly]
    #26486578 - 02/15/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The only journal piece that was referenced in this article states in its abstract that,
Quote:

According to this view, consciousness emerged in evolution when organisms gained the ability to perform internal simulations using internal models,


 
...



we are leaning into complexity that is not well defined in this statement, however, the ability to perform internal simulations using internal models, can be viewed as the ability to perform internal simulations using associative memory, and this ability can be defined and tested without vagueness or abstraction.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: sudly]
    #26487567 - 02/15/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think
Quote:

sudly said:
....We argue that the ability to generate information underlies a variety of cognitive functions associated with consciousness such as intention, imagination, planning, short-term memory, attention, curiosity, and creativity, all of which contribute to non-reflexive behavior. ....
Neuroscience of Consciousness, Volume 2019, Issue 1, 2019, niz016, https://doi.org/10.1093/nc/niz016
Published: 29 November 2019







This definition of consciousness, admits, that (just like 'mind' & 'self') that 'it' is not unitary or stable or permanent.
It seems to be defined as an emergent property, of various different processes that so to speak/metaphorically, through interacting reach  a critical mass or phase transition.

I think how & when self recognition occurs is a missing piece here. (As per the mirror test, etc.)

But regardless, once it is deconstructed, it becomes apparent that it is not a mysterious, incomprehensible, absolute, monolith. And that to speak of it in such a fashion may be quite misleading.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: "Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved " [Re: laughingdog]
    #26487810 - 02/16/20 01:36 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

a mysterious, incomprehensible, absolute, monolith.




You say?

That's the first I've heard of this :shrug:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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