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InvisibleAyePlusS
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475233 - 02/08/20 10:02 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

All right to clear things up just a little bit or hey maybe to muddy things whatever lol.

monoculture is not the same as a mono-karyon

Mono culture is an isolated strain,

a strain is formed when 2 or more germinated spores mate to form a dikaryon, which is required to form A fruiting body of a mushroom which can probably (science is still iffy on this) contain multiple “strains” than can be isolated down into mono-cultures but they will always contain some of the genetic information they shared using clamp connections.

A monokaryon is a single spore that has germinated, and will mate with any compatible mono- or dikatyotic mycelium it comes with contact with, and using clamp connections will share genetic information. This can never be returned to a monokayrotic state, it is now a dikaryon for the rest of its life.

is a monokaryon also technically a “monoculture” well yes but in this situation it is confusing to call it that because we typically use mono culture to mean an isolated strain.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: AyePlus]
    #26475269 - 02/08/20 10:35 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Monostrain!


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: AyePlus]
    #26475279 - 02/08/20 10:43 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Don't mean to change the subject because this is equally as interesting but see i'm interested in thinking about why a clone does not have the exact same spores as its source, i know that a mushroom is male and female in a certain sense so during its fruiting stages some kind of reproduction is PROBABLY happening to produce RANDOM spores so a single mushroom probably has MULTIPLE GENETICS even in a clone. I also found it really interesting to think that if all that is true, then if i cloned to agar and transferred enough times id essentially be isolating in reverse since the quickest way to isolate a strain is to clone and its just a way of approaching isolation from the other direction so to speak. The other way being using a ms syringe on agar then transferring to more and more dishes. The key to remember is that a clone of a mushroom is not like if we cloned a human which would, by definition, be the EXACT same organism minus all the environmental influences lol if spores were nothing more than a physical feature on a mushroom then by the definition we use for cloned humans, the spores would be exactly the same lol clone isnt really the right word is what im trying to say


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475349 - 02/08/20 11:35 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Its really interesting to make the analogy between humans and mushrooms, mushrooms dont need to be ingested to teach you things about yourself and reality. A human needs another body to reproduce, a mushroom's priorities are not consumed by sex, instead reproduction is merely a part of its growth cycle. If you clone a human, in order to reproduce he/she needs a mate. If you clone a mushroom it will produce different offspring each time. I keep bringing this up, and i guess its something subconscious, just me seeking significance...but its really easy to think that if i cloned a human he'd by definition have the exact same physical features and therefore that a "cloned" mushroom would have the exact same offspring if its spores could be seen as a physical feature, so common sense is telling me that they undergo reproduction during its growth. Like worms are hermaphrodites but do they still have to interact with themselves to produce more worms, a mushrooms way of interacting with itself is just by simply growing. Really weird stuff to think about yall, i suppose there's some dude that loves worms and cherishes them and wouldn't see the significance in anything im saying. Mushrooms are like ghosts in the world of living organisms.


Edited by Backbone (02/08/20 11:41 AM)


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OfflineElrik
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475355 - 02/08/20 11:37 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

A clone of an isolated strain will have the exact same genetics. This is why its a clone. There will be no variation without mutation.
The reason spores are different goes down to how they form.
When two monokaryons mate [when two spores mate] they share their nuclei, but then each cell has both nuclei, they do not fuse. Its like if a human sperm went into an egg and then just sat there on the couch like 'screw it, I don't have to do anything yet' and the resulting human was made of eggs with a sperm inside.
Then, when a mushroom forms and tries to produce spores, that is when the two parent nuclei fuse and then split back apart. This mixes up the genes into new random combinations for each spore. That is why spores are genetically different, each is a random selection of the many genes of both of the parents of the mushroom that made the spore.


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: AyePlus]
    #26475362 - 02/08/20 11:40 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

:brainscream:
Wow


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Elrik]
    #26475383 - 02/08/20 12:04 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

lmao im just proud i somehow came to that conclusion whilst navigating all my hippy thoughts mannnnnnnnn. Why would you ever isolate a strain instead of just cloning if you experience no senescence when you use the spores, you're basically guaranteeing a decent fruit body each time, are they just approaching the different priorities from opposite ends hmmmm


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OfflineC12ShroomMan
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475413 - 02/08/20 12:37 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Interesting discussion. I spent hours last night looking for microscope pics of germinating spores and reading about the process.
Found there is 'asexual reproduction' but i guess i'm wonder if that results in fruiting or just growing more myc?

edit: maybe this different all together because its 'cup fungi'



Edited by C12ShroomMan (02/08/20 01:13 PM)


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: C12ShroomMan]
    #26475432 - 02/08/20 12:47 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Sounds like both according to that diagram, also you can only make so many transfers before mycelium stops colonizing, in the wild its different, obviously.


Edited by Backbone (02/08/20 12:53 PM)


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Offlineiwh678
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475573 - 02/08/20 02:06 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Many fungi can reproduce asexually, but but its not going to be common in macrofungi. And encase you were wondering P. cubensis definitely does not. I'm not aware of any that do, but there are always oddballs. If you want a real mind bender look into the reproduction of lichen. Lichen are the result of obligate symbiosis between a fungi, a lichen and/or a bacteria. Because of this they have some truly funky reproductive strategies.


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26476426 - 02/09/20 04:58 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

iwh678 said:
Quote:

Edmunter said:
Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mi
x when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it





Quote:

iwh678 said:
Where did I say that?

A spore can't complete its life cycle without another just like a sperm can't without an egg. They are both they are both haploids and seed is a diploid.



Not confusing at all..........




If you don't see how comparing a spore to seed while on the topic of if a monokaryon can fruit would confuse a laymen then I'm at a loss.







Im saying using the analogy of seed or seamen is confusing if 1 spore alone can germinate.

I think my sarcasm was lost in the last post I made.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Edmunter] * 1
    #26476508 - 02/09/20 07:23 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Cubensis makes spores in the gills.

Each spore germinates it will make a monokaryon.
Monolaryotic mycelium has one nucleus in the cell.

Monokaryons seek each other out.

If compatible they mate to form dikaryotic mycelium

The result of two monokaryons successfully mating is a single strain. The dikaryotic mycelium has two nuclei per cell.

Monokaryotic mycelium will not fruit. Dikaryotic mycelium will.

Dikaryotic mycelium will further fuse with other strains of its own species via anastomosis

A single strain isolate is the product of only two spores/monokaryons.

A monoculture is one culture of fingi. It can be a single strain or many. Monocultures don't have to be isolates.

For example
Clones may be made of many strains these strains together would be monoculture but not a single strain isolate.

Monoculture = multi strain OR single strain isolates.

Single strain isolates are more compelling when used for research than using multi strain cultures. Even if the same multi strain culture is used it's not as compelling as using the same single strain isolate.


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26476596 - 02/09/20 08:54 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:



Clones may be made of many strains these strains together would be monoculture but not a single strain isolate.

Monoculture = multi strain OR single strain isolates.

Single strain isolates are more compelling when used for research than using multi strain cultures. Even if the same multi strain culture is used it's not as compelling as using the same single strain isolate.




Okay awesome. I really understand this better.
I get how a clone is a mono culture. It's one fruit... makes sense. So would there be no way to consiously isolate down to a monoculture? Or is this a microscope type task, yadda yadda

I do have a question...

Not trying to go off topic but...

If I'm going to create a clone, would it be beneficial to take many clone pieces from multiple areas of that one mushroom/stem. THEN once it grows out cut the entire outer circumference of all the mycelium so that I'm ensuring I collect all strains that create that fruit entirely.
I always see everyone just grabs 1 piece then doesn't take in count ungathered sectors while inoculating grain. I feel like you would want all the strains you can get to duplicate its genetic make up as much as possible.
Would this be why so many people have not cloned mushrooms successfully with perfect canopy duplicate monocultures of that selected clone?





Or is that not neccesary?
Wouldnt you think leaving strains behind result in not being able to properly clone the selected fruit.


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26476626 - 02/09/20 09:08 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

BlueTryptoYoshi said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:



Clones may be made of many strains these strains together would be monoculture but not a single strain isolate.

Monoculture = multi strain OR single strain isolates.

Single strain isolates are more compelling when used for research than using multi strain cultures. Even if the same multi strain culture is used it's not as compelling as using the same single strain isolate.




Okay awesome. I really understand this better.
I get how a clone is a mono culture. It's one fruit... makes sense. So would there be no way to consiously isolate down to a monoculture? Or is this a microscope type task, yadda yadda

I do have a question...

Not trying to go off topic but...

If I'm going to create a clone, would it be beneficial to take many clone pieces from multiple areas of that one mushroom/stem. THEN once it grows out cut the entire outer circumference of all the mycelium so that I'm ensuring I collect all strains that create that fruit entirely.
I always see everyone just grabs 1 piece then doesn't take in count ungathered sectors while inoculating grain. I feel like you would want all the strains you can get to duplicate its genetic make up as much as possible.
Would this be why so many people have not cloned mushrooms successfully with perfect canopy duplicate monocultures of that selected clone?





Or is that not neccesary?
Wouldnt you think leaving strains behind result in not being able to properly clone the selected fruit.




Its an interesting question.  For me id rather clone 2 different mushrooms and take 2 samples from each rather than take just 4 samples from 1.    The other stuff is overthinking it IMHO.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Edmunter]
    #26476647 - 02/09/20 09:25 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Your clone should be homogeneous. So taking a small wedge from a plate probably isn't a problem the majority of the time.


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26476669 - 02/09/20 09:41 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

So you're saying any piece and size from a selected mushroom shall contain all strains needed to create a clone canopy, as well as on agar, there are no sectors to isolate as it is a monoculture, so it does not matter where the transfer comes from?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26476754 - 02/09/20 10:31 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

I think most MS cultures can put out a canopy and it has WAY more time do with conditions than genetics.

It seems cultures can eventually break apart but that's just interpretation of what people see happening on dishes. Could just be morphological differences


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Offlineunibrowscowl
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26476819 - 02/09/20 11:24 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Lots of awesome information in this thread.  I've read up on cloning and isolates and I just can't seem to get a full understanding of it. 

So you can you can make a mono culture.  A mono culture can be two single strains of monokaryotic mycelium that have bonded and this is a true isolate. You can also clone a mushroom and you will have multiple dikaryotic strains in your culture. This is also a monoculture as it will produce fruit with the same genetics every time?

So assuming I understand the concept.  Will cloned cultures slowly change or stop fruiting over time?  Or could you just keep transferring the same mycelium from a master plate and continuously to get mushrooms with the same characteristics? Is that what a variety is, a stable monoculture that has been distributed?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: unibrowscowl]
    #26476839 - 02/09/20 11:40 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

I think most people with a true isolate would still get varying performance and some people wouldn't.


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: unibrowscowl]
    #26476852 - 02/09/20 11:45 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

A clone has the same genetics but you can still take a spore print from a clone, mushrooms undergo reproduction during growth to produce different offspring. Havent cloned yet but my instincts tell me youd experience senescence from repeated cloning, also what i read on here hehe lol


Edited by Backbone (02/09/20 12:28 PM)


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