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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26485818 - 02/14/20 05:33 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Infinity only exists because there's a path to it made out of non infinite things


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26485846 - 02/14/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

is that so?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26485964 - 02/14/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Change my mind


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26486061 - 02/14/20 07:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I love your reply
I will return the favor
change my mind
by clarifying what you mean by ' a path leading up to' & giving an example


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26486234 - 02/14/20 10:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Gosh, I don't have a source, but I've read a fair amount about it, and many cosmologists subscribe to the notion that the universe is bounded, and has a shape (but is expanding at the speed of light). Most calculations show it might be a toroid or torus. And, as I have said, there are several who feel it is unbounded and effectively infinite, all this in a multiverse that is infinite or at least transfinite.

Infinity only exists, even in mathematics, because a path towards it exists which is less than infinite
As yet, there is not enough evidence to know which position is right, but both sides have many adherents.



What if infinity was something that seemed finite when observed but also seemed to be increasing at the maximum allowed speed for the observer. Just like any mathematical function it doesn't really matter until its observed/solved for some value. Because we perceive at all especially the fact we perceive time makes an expanding universe perhaps technically an infinite universe that appears to have bounds that expand as a function of time like its the X axis.





Yes, this is like limits in calculus, or even more specifically, the "transfinite" sets of Cantor. There are all sorts of finite infinities in mathematics, and to some extent also in nature. What you describe is probably one of them. For example, how many numbers are there between 1 and 2? The answer is: an infinite number. There is an infinite number of decimals in between one and two, yet one and two are only separated by a single integer. That stuff gets wild if you're interested in reading about it further. You make a good point.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26486255 - 02/14/20 10:34 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
I love your reply
I will return the favor
change my mind
by clarifying what you mean by ' a path leading up to' & giving an example



Infinities are only found by paths that converge towards them.
asymptotes and limits are the physical manifestations of mathematics to describe these paths. Whether it's a series or function it's really a path to infinity. And anywhere before infinities that path can be integrated to give a finite values.

We can only say how big the universe is with respect to time. The universe doesn't really care about time only humans do. The "size of the universe" is everything from t=0 to t=∞

You need to ask the size of the universe at t=x and integrate from t=o to t=x to get the universe size at that given time.

Presumably time goes forever so at t=∞ the area of the universe would also be ∞
(In an expanding universe or assuming expansion)


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26486262 - 02/14/20 10:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I imagine the universe ending in a big crunch scenario with a " negative big bang" such that through t=0 to t=∞ there's a oscillating area with net 0 and during the inverse big bang it is like a mirror of our universe that cancels out the "zero point energy" of the universe field.

We perceive time but the universe does not. Everything happens immediately from t= 0 to ∞ so the "eventual" negative side of the oscillation cancels out the positive and the reason we exist is because literally nothing split apart into positive and negative equals.

But that may be some nutty idea too


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26486974 - 02/15/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

r00tcmplx said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
at the moment, I think Trump is suppressing all science by executive privilege, as well as suppressing other representations of truth/reality in the media, while paying big bucks to generate untruth customized to suit every type of character on Facebook.




Most science isn't science. ...



wrong, funded research may not be science, but science really is science, unless you are laying foundations for your own alternate truth.
Astonishingly Trump is inclined to revise weather warnings to his whim, and completely deny all environmental science and climate change.
Let us not start finding cracks in science to support and empower absolute buffoonery.

Quote:


Please explain this chicken/egg paradox :
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
while paying big bucks to generate untruth customized to suit every type of character on Facebook.




What came first? the widespread business and practice or trump's usage of it towards his ends like every other clown ass in the west?




targeting ads is one thing
ads that are lies are regulated under laws governing false advertising.
targeted political lies are not being governed as false advertising (even though they are an implementation of that same IT infrastructure).
the chicken is facebook's relationship with advertising that can be political (should that not also be covered by the same laws for false advertising?) and with twitter permitting lies if they are political.
the egg is on all of our  faces with that.
Quote:

...

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the crowds are being whooped into a kind of neo-nazi frenzy.




I've really enjoyed, as a black man online, when a white person calls me a neo-nazi.
Just goes to show the frantic disconnect people have with reality now-a-days.
...



did you interpret that I was calling you a neo-Nazi, are you actually whooping it up for Trumpy wumpy?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26487080 - 02/15/20 01:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
wrong, funded research may not be science, but science really is science, unless you are laying foundations for your own alternate truth.




When you speak of science, it is generally agreed upon that you're refunded to funded scientific research which is what you framed in your own commentary. With that being said, and being on the same page, the state of funded scientific research is in shambles and it has to do with over-funding and the bureaucracy, graft, and corruption therein not under-funding. Unfunded self-led science, of course, with less of these ailments indeed really is science as there are minimal detractors.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Astonishingly Trump is inclined to revise weather warnings to his whim, and completely deny all environmental science and climate change.
Let us not start finding cracks in science to support and empower absolute buffoonery.




I'm not even sure I want to get started on this topic as I rarely find people are personally, scientifically, and formally educated on the matter to speak intelligently on it. Echoing common themes and talking points doesn't mean any of them are correct. Trump is a clown in many ways but the state of funded scientific research is in the gutter and Over-funded not underfunded. Cutting funds to shenanigans is the first step in getting back to a proper baseline. 

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
targeting ads is one thing
ads that are lies are regulated under laws governing false advertising.




So, you're correctly saying that modern media, social media, and marketing firms push misinformation and b.s 24/7 ... and that industry worth hundreds of billions of dollars was present before trump got elected.. Namely, it was used by Obama for 8+ years setting a precedence. Correct.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
did you interpret that I was calling you a neo-Nazi, are you actually whooping it up for Trumpy wumpy?




I called the very mention of nazi/neo-nazi to be absurd. I did so partially by referencing that I'm black but it is not discernible online so I've been called a neo-nazi/nazi hilariously a number of times. Trumpy wumpy? Also get called a trump supporter even though I never voted for him and think he's an idiot. Seems people have some serious hangups that cloud their ability to grasp reality... makes it hard to talk about something as complex as climate change intelligently especially as its likely something that requires a graduate degree in various feeder disciplines to even begin parsing the foundations intelligently. Yet, everyone has an opinion and thinks they're right simply because they're parroting mainstream media talking points that are proven to contain tons of lies/misinformation.

Yet, by referencing some 'expert' or something someone mentioned in main-stream media, Ah' the masses think they are in the right. How incredibly flawed our society.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26487148 - 02/15/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

It might be possible to have a conversation in real time with you , but this point for point is not working in my opinion, because we seem not to be getting eachothers' points:
a) science funding as well as military funding and medical research (which is not the same as science funding in general) all work at less efficiency than road building or house construction (which are also rife with graft or favoritism and politics).
the cost of exploratory ventures is high, but valuable, especially as it feeds back into education (which should also be funded) - no education leads to stupid people (like trump and trumpists). Arguing about science funding is not where I am coming from - but research is the tip of the spear for our developing world, and also for our recovering world as relates to getting the environment back in order.
b) Self directed science projects may or may not turn into science, though often a rogue thinker disassembles systems uniquely and puts them back together in new ways. I have not been talking about any of this.

I also have never looked at the Obama administration's use of social media, but I would not expect that it would use the principle of falsification in order to mobilize voters against each other. I am really surprised that you brought up that type of polarity yourself. Bringing up Obama's use of fake news in Facebook (without clear examples) not functional at this time, FAKE NEWS is pretty new on facebook which is pretty new in the world. It is as if you inserted it to make seem true (and that is an abuse of this forum, and of my time and attention).

When lying people intentionally polarize the public, they are treating all people as sub-human. like playing with static electricity to make shocks - that seems to be a poor way to spend money. I would prefer to waste money on scientific research, and waste it on the arts too, for that matter.

Apparently some people have excess of it and others don't.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26487226 - 02/15/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
It is as if you inserted it to make seem true (and that is an abuse of this forum, and of my time and attention).




I had a long, detailed, and informative reply written up but I'm going to do the smart thing and avoid replying.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26487701 - 02/15/20 10:23 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
I love your reply
I will return the favor
change my mind
by clarifying what you mean by ' a path leading up to' & giving an example



Infinities are only found by paths that converge towards them.
asymptotes and limits are the physical manifestations of mathematics to describe these paths. Whether it's a series or function it's really a path to infinity. And anywhere before infinities that path can be integrated to give a finite values.

We can only say how big the universe is with respect to time. The universe doesn't really care about time only humans do. The "size of the universe" is everything from t=0 to t=∞

You need to ask the size of the universe at t=x and integrate from t=o to t=x to get the universe size at that given time.

Presumably time goes forever so at t=∞ the area of the universe would also be ∞
(In an expanding universe or assuming expansion)




.  Frankly I have no idea what this means : "You need to ask the size of the universe at t=x and integrate from t=o to t=x to get the universe size at that given time."

.  Simple logic suggests that infinity is a sort of abstract concept for that, which by definition, can never be measured. In the case of numbers, which we say are infinite, the numbers are already an abstraction and the concept of infinity just adds more abstraction.
.  And abstractions neither exist nor do not exist. (Existence is only a characteristic of objects. As regards actions or verbs we realize they are temporary & do not have conventional permanence--thus we don't say "running" exists- because it can manifest & stop at anytime an animal chooses). Like wise one cannot say of infinity that it exists or does not.
.    So to say there is a path (of finite things) that lead to it, seems simply non-sensical to me.

The 4 negations point to a similar view

"LR
What Are the Four Negations?
...According to Mahayana Buddhism, any concepts we have about the basic nature of reality are incomplete, inaccurate, and in fact block our direct experience of things as they really are. The Middle Way (Madhyamaka) philosophy pioneered by the Indian Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna (2nd–3rd century CE) uses reason to negate our mistaken concepts about reality. Take a pair of opposites, such as real and unreal. Madhyamaka logic looks at four possibilities—that things are either real, unreal, both, or neither—and refutes them in turn. So in this case, the four negations are: ... and it continues.... at:

https://www.lionsroar.com/what-are-the-four-negations/

and/or

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=4+negations+%2C+buddhism&t=h_&ia=web


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze]
    #26494026 - 02/19/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

recycling wasnt a human invention...


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26494546 - 02/20/20 07:23 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I've wondered what force draws on things to become less PSI.

Some kind of overflowing push..... but wouldnt it be a finite universe.... so an expansion of the universe in size but not in location..... and that expansion creates the pull that creates vacuum....

And IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO ...... why the fuck is it expanding..... where the fuck did it all come from.....

DAMNIT I want the fucking answers. FUCK YOU being born in this era. I want the answers NOW.

But obviously thats just grass is always greener. I'd be unhappy everywhere with any knowledge. Thats why humans rule the earth though.

How fucking HILARIOUS is all this shit? We are fucked everywhich way we look.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26496360 - 02/21/20 02:02 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So with each dot(unit) the full threshold becomes apparent.

The full threshold is an expansing infinity..


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26496820 - 02/21/20 10:50 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein"

.  If Einstein wasn't sure IF it was infinite and Buddha refused to answer the question (for good reasons), I wonder what benefit folks here, hope to derive from the time they invest, hoping to get, or prove, a definitive answer?

https://dhammakami.org/2018/08/26/what-are-the-ten-questions-that-the-buddha-did-not-answer/

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=questions+buddha+would+not+answer&t=h_&ia=web


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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze] * 1
    #26497991 - 02/22/20 05:38 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Like a circle. The last event is the same exact thing as the first. It all repeats itself the exact same way as the cycle repeats. When you die you are born again as yourself and life the exact same life. You have done exactly what you are doing right now an infinite number of times before you will do it an infinite number of times again.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: xFrockx]
    #26498000 - 02/22/20 06:02 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

wacky idea unless u r a groundhog


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26498098 - 02/22/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
wacky idea unless u r a groundhog




I GOT YOU BABE!


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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26499254 - 02/22/20 11:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The idea that time doesn't end is both eternity and an infinite forward mechanism.


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