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pacmanbreed



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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze]
#26478858 - 02/10/20 04:09 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Double slits Sound both finity and infinity to me. From macro(galaxy-universe(s)....) to micro/nano(atom-quark(s)....).
Not by ever expansion: Very recently, high calibre international scientists were presenting evidences that contradicted the idea of Doppler and Hubble that Red Shift implies stars and galaxies are going farther from each other, therefore suggesting an ever expanding universe
So in an expanding Universe the most distant galaxies should have hundreds of times dimmer surface brightness than similar nearby galaxies, making them actually undetectable with present-day telescopes.
But that is not what observations show, as demonstrated by this new study published in the International Journal of Modern Physics D.
The scientists carefully compared the size and brightness of about a thousand nearby and extremely distant galaxies. They chose the most luminous spiral galaxies for comparisons, matching the average luminosity of the near and far samples.
Contrary to the prediction of the Big Bang theory, they found that the surface brightnesses of the near and far galaxies are identical.
These results are consistent with what would be expected from ordinary geometry if the Universe was not expanding, and are in contradiction with the drastic dimming of surface brightness predicted by the expanding Universe hypothesis. http://www.sci-news.com/astronomy/science-universe-not-expanding-01940.htmlbut by a end-point/edge/finity, in an Infinitum(Alive fractal).  
Edited by pacmanbreed (02/11/20 07:22 AM)
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BrendanFlock
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: pacmanbreed] 1
#26479406 - 02/10/20 11:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Every time you observe something you naturally react to it.
So like whats the deal with frames of experience? Maybe the frames are real and interacting with you?
Like ideas are suits that have textures..
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BrendanFlock
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#26479407 - 02/10/20 11:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Time is art!
When sewn together properly..
Being beyond time is true freedom!
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dbreeze
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#26479858 - 02/11/20 09:47 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe "that wich is not" (shiva) is infinite and the material inside is expanding into that but expanding at such a rate that is quicker than we are discovering it...to me that is the most simple way to describe it....i personally dont know the science of it. even the big bang do we know for sure it happened?...isnt it that we think it happened because the universe is expanding scientist have argued over it expanding to nothing or collapsing down on itself what if it breathes (gets bigger for a while until the force pushing it out isnt enough then it colapses back a little then expands again.....essentially everything in life has a way of being "recycled" so why not the universe itself
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r00tcmplx
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze] 1
#26480889 - 02/11/20 07:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dbreeze said: so the double slit experiment says things like light can be particle or wave depending on how you look. whenn they set up the experiment to see particle thats what they got same for wave (if i am correct this says the universe itself is alive and knows we are looking.) So as we keep looking out to space i think reality will just make more and more space so we never see the end. The bigger the telescope the bigger the universe. Thats what i think it just keeps creating what is just out of reach. So this would mean technicly right now there is a edge we just cant see it. But as we are able to look deeper space would get deeper and we would never find the end. or is everything already made and truely infinite already what do you guys think??
Infinite can just be considered as anything past the point that you can count and when you arrive at it, it increases again and again beyond your capture ad infinitum. Our galaxy is 1000 light years across. That means, even if you could travel at the speed of light, it would take 1000 years to get to the other side. You'd be dead by then simply put.
Now consider that there are trillions of galaxies, some 1000 times bigger than ours... What sensical basis beyond theoretical physicists trying to establish things about our universe does the concept of infinite even have any merit? How do you even establish concretely if there is an edge to the universe when you can't even travel across your own galaxy ....you literally can't which is why all of this is held in theoretical physics which is based on a slew of assumptions the average person takes for granted. At the center of our galaxy is a massive black hole. Still no word on what localized distortions this creates by MATTER of FACT science. For all we know, all of what we see could be a lensed bubble distortion from within our galaxy... Why? because we've never sent anything outside of it.. Not even in the least :
 Our furthest telescopes have barely even escaped the bow shock bubble of our localized solar system orbiting the center of our galaxy :

I get the idea of human wonder and basking in and enjoying it but its good to ground this stuff every now and again. It's also good to understand the limits of science and its theories and framings. A lot of it tbqh, is b.s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_aberration
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1909.04401.pdf Infinite this and that and for all we know were in a bubble with optical properties we haven't the slightest grasp of because that's all were using as data.. what we can see throughout the EM spectrum
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dbreeze
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26481678 - 02/12/20 09:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well thats kinda my point.i think we can only see/measure so far out the universe is still being created things are still happening. my spiritual belief is everything including the universe itself is alive it knows we are loooking and creates more to look at as soon as we can see farther. Like i said that is a belief i have but many scientist are now talking about our universe as a simulation like real life matrix maybe its smart and acts like that we WILL NEVER get the big scope of everything cause as soon as we see that it builds more. So technicly i guess its finite but we cant see the edge and never will so thinking of it as infinte is ok. but if its finite whats outside of that is there a point where everything hits a literal wall. or does physicality run out meaning when you get to a certain point all the galaxies are behind you (but again we would never get there)
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze]
#26481710 - 02/12/20 10:19 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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We can see light from about 13.8 billion light years away. We have equipment to see further than that but there doesn't appear to be anything. This is generally said to be because the universe is only 13.8 billion years old and light from anything further hasn't had time to reach here.
This makes the visible universe about 28 billion light years across but because of expansion it's estimated the size of the visible universe now is much larger.
I don't know the evidence behind it but many cosmologists think the universe is actually about 7 trillion light years across. I have read up to 50 trillion but that was years ago and 7 trillion seems to be a more modern estimate.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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r00tcmplx
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze]
#26482126 - 02/12/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dbreeze said: Well thats kinda my point.
Stick to it...
Quote:
dbreeze said: i think we can only see/measure so far out the universe is still being created things are still happening. my spiritual belief is everything including the universe itself is alive it knows we are loooking and creates more to look at as soon as we can see farther.
And here's where things go off the rails. If I put a chair in a room. The chair is there. It doesn't care if you're looking at it or not. You can leave and come back a year later and the chair will be there. The universe isn't reacting to you beyond local interactions. Further, what you see is photons/EM being adsorbed and reflected. It doesn't care about your existence. It isn't reacting to you. As far as your eyes are concerned, it terminates on your retina. That's it. A healthy study of optics will serve you well here.
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dbreeze said: Like i said that is a belief i have but many scientist are now talking about our universe as a simulation like real life matrix
This is what's known as pop-science and theoretical physics. It's literal shower-thoughts from educated people. Please don't take this stuff seriously as no one of a scientific pedigree does.
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dbreeze said: maybe its smart and acts like that we WILL NEVER get the big scope of everything cause as soon as we see that it builds more.
Except this is not how light works. It interacts with things, is absorbed and re-emitted, this is what you see. A sea of water flowing around. The water, unless your hand is in the stream, doesn't react to you or interact with you. Light terminates on your retina. The universe isn't some game engine responding to your actions here on earth 1 billion light years away.
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dbreeze said: So technicly i guess its finite but we cant see the edge and never will so thinking of it as infinte is ok.
It's ok to believe in anything. It's not ok to assert it as truth or anything beyond a belief. When I maintain a belief that is 'way out there'.. I spend time and effort to ground it and ultimately I maintain it in order to get somewhere. I have wild beliefs. However, every day I widdle away at them and ground them in a plausible reality. The concept of the universe reacting to you beyond physics was weighted down some time ago. People used to think you send beams out of your eyes that causes the universe to respond....
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dbreeze said: but if its finite whats outside of that is there a point where everything hits a literal wall. or does physicality run out meaning when you get to a certain point all the galaxies are behind you (but again we would never get there)
Ultimately, until you reach that limit, it frankly does/doesn't exist nor does it matter. For theoretical physics, they are paid to explore the range of possibility and permutation of possibility but that isn't to say that 99% of it isn't foolishness. I maintain that the universe is both finite/infinite because neither belief gets me anything of value. The universe could be a simulation or it couldn't, unless you're able to exit it, you can't prove it. Until you hit a limit, it does/doesn't exist. As I said, infinite is literally anything past what you can measure/observe/quantify... And once you hit that limit, a new one will be present and so on and so forth.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Rahz]
#26482136 - 02/12/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: We can see light from about 13.8 billion light years away.
This is a theory.
Quote:
Rahz said: We have equipment to see further than that but there doesn't appear to be anything. This is generally said to be because the universe is only 13.8 billion years old and light from anything further hasn't had time to reach here.
This is a theory based on lots of other theories and assumptions.
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Rahz said: This makes the visible universe about 28 billion light years across but because of expansion it's estimated the size of the visible universe now is much larger.
Yet another theory.
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Rahz said: I don't know the evidence behind it but many cosmologists think the universe is actually about 7 trillion light years across. I have read up to 50 trillion but that was years ago and 7 trillion seems to be a more modern estimate.
A theory.
Fun and creative to think of it as fact. However, it's all conjecture and theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens As there are no broadly established systems model from micro to macro that capture all phenomenon, we quite frankly don't know what were measuring or seeing at incredible distances. Instead, we have theoretical models based on even more theories that give us plausible ideas of what it is. As I said, we could be in one big limited bubble even within our own galaxy and everything out of it could be distorted. Meanwhile, there's this theory that we see things clearly outside of it and its 28 billion light years old.... Wrong : That's just a theory based on pretty loosely strung together theories. Good and great that someone put it together and put lots of work into it but still based on theory.
We know nothing about the significantly small or large nor of far away things.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26482473 - 02/12/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's theory, not established fact. There are issues that can complicate the answers but the evidence and science behind the simple answer is fairly sound. Besides, knowing or considering such things has no practical purpose. It is for fun. Fuel for the imagination.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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laughingdog
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Rahz]
#26482664 - 02/12/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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What physicists are working on now https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sean+carroll%2C+fields especially this one which is fascinating: "Particles, Fields and The Future of Physics" A Lecture by Sean Carroll & more by him https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sean+carroll
the joy of science and wonder, was a remarkable man: Richard Feynman https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=feynman the first two are great
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Yellow Pants


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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: laughingdog]
#26482718 - 02/12/20 08:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Condensed energy, substance, explodes and progresses (Big Bang), falls back into itself (torus and/or contraction), new condensed energy substance. We go around.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Rahz]
#26483907 - 02/13/20 03:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: It's theory, not established fact. There are issues that can complicate the answers but the evidence and science behind the simple answer is fairly sound. Besides, knowing or considering such things has no practical purpose. It is for fun. Fuel for the imagination.
Glad we concur. I agree 100% and treat it as such.. and the thing about that is once you've burnt out the mystery of a thing, you long and strive to create another. It's a ride that never ends. So, while I might critique anther's mystery as I have already done in my own personal life sufficiently to for instance call it flawed/incorrect/foolish, I indeed have some even farther off one I built atop it. Enough to say that ultimately say, we all believe in foolishness such to a degree that we take ourselves further beyond the mundane
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r00tcmplx
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26483909 - 02/13/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Condensed energy, substance, explodes and progresses (Big Bang), falls back into itself (torus and/or contraction), new condensed energy substance. We go around.
As framed here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
A form/idea I partially subscribe too
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Yellow Pants


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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26484239 - 02/13/20 07:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
r00tcmplx said:
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Condensed energy, substance, explodes and progresses (Big Bang), falls back into itself (torus and/or contraction), new condensed energy substance. We go around.
As framed here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
A form/idea I partially subscribe too
No reason to subscribe fully.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26484258 - 02/13/20 07:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said:
Quote:
r00tcmplx said:
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Condensed energy, substance, explodes and progresses (Big Bang), falls back into itself (torus and/or contraction), new condensed energy substance. We go around.
As framed here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
A form/idea I partially subscribe too
No reason to subscribe fully.
Never is for ideation/imagination. I maintain multiple theories .. some even contradict each other... Whatever gives me better ideas for my work. I wish more people grasped this. Then again, when someone is married to or fully subscribed, it forms very good debates and can lead to good things. So, I always appreciate a good argument. So long as it is intelligible, which is hard to find.
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kitten6
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze]
#26484808 - 02/14/20 06:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't think any of us are qualified to say anything in this matter. But i think its cool. Maybe it would be a kind of fractal that you can go infinitely deep into but the fractal has many dimensions, 8 dimensions maybe. An 8 dimensional shape, regular?.
That would be cool, because then there would be all kinds of proof for metaphysicals, and world convergence. Things that dictate time. How do we even measure time? Do we even measure that?
Maybe that would mean that the stars do indeed dictate the course of causality. Astrology would be real, and phenomenons like alchemy and magic could be real. What do they call it? cabalistic? Hermetics? Are they the same thing? Who knows. Stars have the closest connection to the higher dimensions and where you are in terms of the stars dictates everything maybe?
Not much magical shit happening much at this point in time. Or maybe it does but we just don't know. We'd have to study the books of old written down in the ancient libraries of there was once a point where wisdom from the west and wisdom from the east converged. Now i think western wisdom has taken over and eastern wisdom is all but forgotten by most. Probably need to bring this into balance again maybe.
Scientists can have good look trying to figure the truth out I don't think they will ever succeed because the answer is already within us, it is within us all. We are nowhere near the truth and science is not going to bring us any closer, I think there was a point where we did know the truth but these days are lost in time. But maybe there are still survivors of this age. lets hope they still remember.
Scientists will have times of great progression but this progression is in no means bringing us closer to truth, just how to manipulate the truth to our own benefit so we can fly around in aeroplanes and shit like who the fuck asked.
I think we are coming closer to the turning point where scientists will be overwhelmed by truth and have no idea how to interpret it. Once the meteorites start landing most people are gna be fucked.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: kitten6]
#26484893 - 02/14/20 07:42 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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at the moment, I think Trump is suppressing all science by executive privilege, as well as suppressing other representations of truth/reality in the media, while paying big bucks to generate untruth customized to suit every type of character on Facebook.
forget the time space continuum, which remains complex for the brightest among the brightest. any basic facts at this particular time are being challenged and the crowds are being whooped into a kind of neo-nazi frenzy.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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r00tcmplx
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26485721 - 02/14/20 04:33 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: at the moment, I think Trump is suppressing all science by executive privilege, as well as suppressing other representations of truth/reality in the media, while paying big bucks to generate untruth customized to suit every type of character on Facebook.
Most science isn't science. Lately, it's been iterative B.S for funding and profit. It's been a lot of disinformation/misinformation. There's been lots of plagiarism. There's been lots of falsified data. There's been a lack of innovation or new ideas. There's been a lack of funding of truly innovative research. There's been corruption. There's been an echo chamber. There's been bureaucratic nonsense and gate keeping. Trump has nothing to do with this but any business person will tell you, when you have such broad spread waste/graft, cut the funding/pull the plug, let the chips fall where they may, and let it collapse and build something better from the dust after it settles. You can't suppress science, truth. No one has the power. No one stops anyone from publishing a paper. It's drop dead simple. The media especially mainstream media and social media are filled with lies because the average person couldn't be bothered to spend their precious time filtering it out and/or looking for the truth. Lies are easier. Sensationalist b.s captures people's attention and is more profitable. This was going on long before and will continue long after the idiot we have in office is gone. Part of the reason he was elected is because the average person in America is an idiot.
Please explain this chicken/egg paradox :
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redgreenvines said: while paying big bucks to generate untruth customized to suit every type of character on Facebook.
What came first? the widespread business and practice or trump's usage of it towards his ends like every other clown ass in the west?
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redgreenvines said: forget the time space continuum, which remains complex for the brightest among the brightest. any basic facts at this particular time are being challenged and the crowds are being whooped into a kind of neo-nazi frenzy.
Those with intelligence aren't forgetting, they are pursuing understanding in earnest even as the masses chow-down on dogfood media. Facts and truth don't change just because a swell of people decide to be idiots and center on idiocy. The gap simply grows between those with intelligence who can impact/build/create things and those that can't... and this is a self-willed result and not the fault of anyone else besides the individual who consumes junkfood. You can't challenge facts. They stand alone. You can create a big scene but only idiots will be attracted.
Quote:
redgreenvines said: the crowds are being whooped into a kind of neo-nazi frenzy.
I've really enjoyed, as a black man online, when a white person calls me a neo-nazi. Just goes to show the frantic disconnect people have with reality now-a-days.
Nothing occurs in a vacuum, if hate is fomented to a degree of absurdity and it is widespread, there likely is a root cause. If people play dumb about the root cause and try to obscure it, the problem just gets worst. Life is cyclical and zero sum. If you play stupid games, eventually you'll win a stupid prize. If you claim everything is everything and is fine and good eventually someone will use that logic to do something deplorable enough to challenge such logic. If you liberally abandon sound practices, you invite chaos. If you try to change society too fast, you will make mistakes, piss people off, and cause people to act against you. If you try to shove something down people's throats, they will react in kind. If you try to destroy traditional social values and demonize people who uphold them, you'll invite chaos and chaos leaders. Liberals are as much to blame as anyone as to why a chaotic candidate got put into office. The same holds for the historic precedence. Play stupid games and eventually you'll win a stupid prize. I don't doubt for a minute that humans who play these advanced games in society aren't aware of their actions. The universe and cosmos is simply answering/responding. Unless a persons considers them-self a God, no one is above the cosmic universe. You can challenge its natures and limits all you want. History defines what will result. Playing dumb when the cosmos answers back also doesn't change anything.
 Getting a special kick out of various factions of Human beings calling themselves masters of the Cosmos in modern times only to be crushed under far more transcendent orders and powers. It's especially hilarious when people craft false realities around themselves and their movements and pretend as though the cosmos/universe will conform.
The cosmos is the Koolaid man. It doesn't care about what fake walls you construct around yourself. It will always break through and show you what reality is.
 You can't run. You can't hide and no wall is strong enough.
When you play stupid games against society and people, eventually they'll use your same games and tactics against you and on goes the sick cycle of universal suffering.
Edited by r00tcmplx (02/14/20 04:50 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


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Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26485814 - 02/14/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Gosh, I don't have a source, but I've read a fair amount about it, and many cosmologists subscribe to the notion that the universe is bounded, and has a shape (but is expanding at the speed of light). Most calculations show it might be a toroid or torus. And, as I have said, there are several who feel it is unbounded and effectively infinite, all this in a multiverse that is infinite or at least transfinite.
Infinity only exists, even in mathematics, because a path towards it exists which is less than infinite As yet, there is not enough evidence to know which position is right, but both sides have many adherents.
What if infinity was something that seemed finite when observed but also seemed to be increasing at the maximum allowed speed for the observer. Just like any mathematical function it doesn't really matter until its observed/solved for some value. Because we perceive at all especially the fact we perceive time makes an expanding universe perhaps technically an infinite universe that appears to have bounds that expand as a function of time like its the X axis.
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