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Invisibledbreeze
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how would a infinite universe work?
    #26475273 - 02/08/20 10:40 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

so the double slit experiment says things like light can be particle or wave depending on how you look. whenn they set up the experiment to see particle thats what they got same for wave (if i am correct this says the universe itself is alive and knows we are looking.) So as we keep looking out to space i think reality will just make more and more space so we never see the end. The bigger the telescope the bigger the universe. Thats what i think it just keeps creating what is just out of reach. So this would mean technicly right now there is a edge we just cant see it. But as we are able to look deeper space would get deeper and we would never find the end. or is everything already made and truely infinite already what do you guys think??


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze]
    #26475467 - 02/08/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

infinitely hard to answer such a question, but maybe while the universe is infinite, the number of stars and the total mass of them is not infinite.
you could ask a big bang specialist about the total mass of the universe, and how dark matter fits in.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze]
    #26475499 - 02/08/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Some scientists feel that our universe is infinite, and some feel it is finite. We really have no idea. But one of the most striking hypotheses is that of the multiverse, which comes out of the math of quantum mechanics, inflation theory, string theory, M theory and others, and is generally accepted as legit by many physicists in the areas of quantum mechanics and cosmology.

In the multiverse, our universe is only one universe out of a possible infinity of other universes. Within this hypothesis, it is still not known whether our individual universe has a boundary or not. Some physicists feel the multiverse is probably infinite, and some calculations show that it is actually finite, with about 10^500 different universes. If not truly infinite, 1 with 500 zeroes after it is still, probably, big enough. Especially if each individual universe turns out to have infinite space.

All in all, an interesting topic that we really understand very little about, if anything at all.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26475659 - 02/08/20 02:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

As neither "the infinite" or infinity cannot be imagined, what possible difference could it make?
And any answer can only be a matter of belief.
In the case of prime numbers, it is supposed to be proven that they are infinite.
But of course being abstract they take up no space!!!
https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/272791/how-many-prime-numbers-are-known.

It is said: "the Tao that can be named, is not the 'Tao" (over 2000 years ago : 6th-century BC).
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tao
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching
In the same way, infinity is not a number.
By definition it has no limit or cannot be defined, as to define is to limit or objectify.
To attempt to answer the question, thus seems to me an exercise in futility, that ignores both the limitations of mind, and the existence of paradox.
The physical universe is presumed to be an object, and hence by de-finition must have a boundary.
Yet in spite of 'big bang theory' of course no one can really imagine a world, or  time before or without time. Like wise no one can imagine a place without space.

Seems to me we get a choice between enjoying a state of wonder in regards to the inexplicable amazing universe, or we can be fearful and so desperate for final answers that we accept some sort of religious dogma that promises final answers.

This didn't work out so well for the Heaven's Gate followers.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Heaven%27s+Gate+followers&t=h_&ia=web


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze]
    #26475665 - 02/08/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

dbreeze said:
so the double slit experiment says things like light can be particle or wave depending on how you look.




Apparently that is an over simplification for nonscientists:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=particles%2C+waves%2C+or+fields&t=h_&ia=web

for example

"When scientists talk to non-scientists about particle physics, they talk about the smallest building blocks of matter: what you get when you divide cells and molecules into tinier and tinier bits until you can’t divide them any more.

That’s one way of looking at things. But it’s not really the way things are, said Caltech theoretical physicist Sean Carroll in a lecture at Fermilab. And if physicists really want other people to appreciate the discovery of the Higgs boson, he said, it’s time to tell them the rest of the story.

“To understand what is going on, you actually need to give up a little bit on the notion of particles,” Carroll said in the June lecture.

Instead, think in terms of fields."...  rest of article here:

https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/july-2013/real-talk-everything-is-made-of-fields

also

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=feilds%2C+particles%2C+waves

-----------
Particles, Fields and The Future of Physics - A Lecture by Sean Carroll

'Sounds starts at 0:19. I recommend adding an annotation at the beginning, as 19 seconds may exceed the "patience threshold" of some users. '



Edited by laughingdog (02/09/20 12:08 AM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26476174 - 02/08/20 09:34 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

"Seems to me we get a choice between enjoying a state of wonder in regards to the inexplicable amazing universe, or we can be fearful and so desperate for final answers that we accept some sort of religious dogma that promises final answers."

and what is (the state of, or sense of) wonder?



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze]
    #26476266 - 02/08/20 11:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The known universe is expanding and it seems to be accelerating according to cosmologists. The manifest universe is expanding into the not-yet existent. What does that mean? Maybe the universe is God's dream as they say in Vaishnava Hinduism. Now when one of our dream-egos in in a dreamscape, there is no boundary because the dreamscape is not a physical place it is purely psychic. Perhaps there is a correspondence between these concepts on cosmic scales of magnitude. If God is spirit [S]He is formless and without spacial or temporal extension, just like our dreams.

Now, whether consciousness, psyche is an equal aspect of the universe has been suggested by the psychologist C.G. Jung in collaboration with the physicist Wolfgang Pauli that physics and psyche are two sides of the same reality. They converge in human beings and really in all living creatures who are psychosomatic beings. Why not the very fabric of space-time also being self-aware although not self-created? The Creator or the universe goes by many names and concepts but Whomever It is (surely not Whatever It is because the Creator cannot be less sentient than It's creation), It/[S]He is eternal and IS when the universe was not yet.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26476483 - 02/09/20 06:35 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

what scientist thinks it is not infinite?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26476575 - 02/09/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Gosh, I don't have a source, but I've read a fair amount about it, and many cosmologists subscribe to the notion that the universe is bounded, and has a shape (but is expanding at the speed of light). Most calculations show it might be a toroid or torus. And, as I have said, there are several who feel it is unbounded and effectively infinite, all this in a multiverse that is infinite or at least transfinite.

As yet, there is not enough evidence to know which position is right, but both sides have many adherents.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26476602 - 02/09/20 08:59 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

They're 95% certain now the universe is flat (doesn't curve in on itself).

I think the majority consensus is that it's not infinite in 3d, but the source of it should be infinite.

Then again, the size of the universe can only be measured in relation to things inside of it, so I'm not sure size is relevant to the universe. Big or small? It's "big" compared to me. It's bigger than anything! :lol:


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Rahz]
    #26476612 - 02/09/20 09:02 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, either way it's big enough.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: dbreeze]
    #26476622 - 02/09/20 09:07 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Imagine, you have an endless void that tends to form bubbles that degrade into stronger, smaller bubbles, until the smallest bubbles pop and void remains.

Now imagine that in this void, there's a phemomenon where at once you get a raging foam of bubbles in one spot, a big bang, that initially very rapidly and finally, very slowly, has its bubbles pop until void remains, through a Big Rip that bursts all bubbles.

Then you're there.

About the nature of all things, my Spirit Guide said this:






That's it.

Combine that and there you have your infinite universe.

But, it has consequences!

As my spirit guide puts it:


Quote:


THE END?

There is a beginning, and there is an end to all things. we grieve the loss of what we hold dear and go on until we, too, end.


But! What if this universe is eternal? What if all things that once begun and ended, will happen again in every possible way, forever?

Think about it! You would not just have one life, but you would have every possible life, in every possible way, forever!

That means that no matter what you lose, your keys, your friends, your life, it would all come back to you, forever.

Rather than a prisoner of circumstance, you are liberated into total freedom.

Even if the sun would explode, a new earth would be, life would form on it and you will be born again into every possible reality.

Be free! Be brave! Play! Work! Achieve! Love!

Not even all the nukes in the world can stop you!

YOU ARE ETERNAL!





So, don't fear the Reaper. Dont fear your bubble bursting. it will emerge anew.
YOU ARE THAT FOAMY VOID.




Not even all the nukes of the Earth can blow that away.



Want a quick primer on THE MAGNIFICENCE OF YOU?


Hold onto your hat!




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Asante]
    #26476676 - 02/09/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

the extent of all matter in this infinite space, which is the universe, is finite but immense, however the space of the universe - which is all that there is, is infinite.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26476699 - 02/09/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the extent of all matter in this infinite space, which is the universe, is finite but immense, however the space of the universe - which is all that there is, is infinite.





I disagree.

Void is not absolute. An amount of energy is proportionate to an amount of void..

Thus, an infinite fireworks show of big bangs going off in every possible way, forever!

A finite amount of energy per big bang though.

A big bang is a particle which decays, like a neutron. It just happens to be a VERY BIG particle decaying into an IMMENSE number of particles and antiparticles. Its a bubble giving rise to a foam.




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InvisibleRahz
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Asante]
    #26476733 - 02/09/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Something very similar, I tend to think of the universe dissolving. This idea came about due to something I read which states that space is a product of sub-atomic interactions. Gravity and space-time are related. Therefore, since everything radiates, eventually there will be no mass. No mass = no space = a singularity.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Rahz]
    #26476936 - 02/09/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

.    Seems to me, metaphysically speaking, the question, is based on the assumption, that "things" must either exist or not exist. But do numbers exist? They have no location or weight, or any measurable characteristics - except in relation to one another. Yet math seems to explain the most fundamental aspects of the physical world. The concept of infinity is even more abstract, and there are many! *
So infinities "exist" within the universe. Does this mean the universe must be infinite to contain them? And if they can be contained are they infinite?

* "...Thus the mathematical concept of infinity refines and extends the old philosophical concept, in particular by introducing infinitely many different sizes of infinite sets. Among the axioms of Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory, on which most of modern mathematics can be developed, is the axiom of infinity, which guarantees the existence of infinite sets.[2] ..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26476979 - 02/09/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I suspect the universe can be described materialistically, and there is a finite quality to such observations but even in that case time makes it infinite. The end is the beginning.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: Rahz]
    #26477009 - 02/09/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

.    In terms of our experience the universe, as we experience it, is incomprehensible, infinite, and inconceivable.
.  Consider all the thoughts in a day, all the sights, all the leaves on a single tree one sees, the sensations of every step one takes, the changing tastes of every bite of food one chews, the changing body from youth to old age eventually leading to death, changing desires, moods, feelings etc. 99.99...% of all this vanishes, almost immediately. And most of the rest fairly shortly thereafter.
.  Because our minds generalize, and we make up stories about ourselves and our lives, just as movies, comics, stories & dreams do---that is by making cuts from shot to shot (in movies), or frame to frame (comics), paragraphs & chapters (stories and books) and yet get caught up in emotions relating to the story line, we get the feeling that we have a continuous and real time grasp of what is going on.
.  But again like a movie made of still pictures, but run at 24 or 32 frames per second,
this notion is pure illusion. We focus on what we take to be important, and never miss the infinities we ignore.
.    Of course when tripping a bit more is revealed, and it feels amazing, but it is still only "a drop in the ocean", and we seemingly are still in "Plato's cave".
.    Since our own experiencing is on the one hand much richer than we can fathom intellectually, and on the other hand so limited in terms of what is actually continually happening, speculating on some supposed objective reality (that presumably also contains all subjective realities), seems a strange endeavor to me.


Edited by laughingdog (02/09/20 02:35 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26477681 - 02/09/20 09:41 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

so infinite then,  ok


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: how would a infinite universe work? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26478630 - 02/10/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Not necessarily. "Infinite or finite. One of the presently unanswered questions about the universe is whether it is infinite or finite in extent." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe The expanding universe is expanding into the unmanifest, the 'not yet.' There is no pre-existent infinite space 'beyond' the expanding horizon (some 13.8 billion lightyears from some unknown point of origination) into which the universe is expanding.  I will not pretend to understand non-Euclidean geometry or advanced calculus (I did rather poorly in Euclidean geometry and Calculus I). But I cannot help but wax metaphysical and metaphorical when discussing this. We cannot grasp this in imagination and our psyche generates a 'place-holder,' an image of empty, starless void beyond the expanding universe of galaxies to take the place of an incomprehensible Mystery.

Professional mathematicians are not exempt from such processes within the psyche so they take a stand on flat, positive, or negative curvatures and make an assumption about finite or infinite because even though they can formulate equations to express  age, size, and velocity, the boundary/edge is a transcendental problem that defies all logic for anyone, mathematicians included. Going backwards in time to the origin of space-time 10-43 seconds ago, the Big Bang event. The mind also cannot imagine being a singularity, a mathematical point. The mind must use spacial representations and a point cannot be imagined unless it is a point on a line, a plane, a sphere, etc. But according to cosmology space itself did not exist prior to the Big Bang (or, the biblical "Fiat Lux!" which I think is the same thing expressed in mythic language). The universe did not expand from a mathematical point to its current size/shape into a pre-existent void. The void grew from the singularity/point. But again, this defies imagination because we cannot comprehend zero-dimension.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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