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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Doyledozo]
    #26474587 - 02/07/20 07:51 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Most of the strains around now are about as narrowed down as they will be as far as MS goes. After a few generations they are stabilized but MS is MS. You'll get occasionally get a red-headed stepchild in a family of blondes.


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: FooMan]
    #26474786 - 02/07/20 10:40 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

So a single strain isolation and a monoculture are technically the same?

You said monoculture is a single spore germinated..
Wouldnt an isolated strain be essentially a mono at that point?

Is it possible to separate a single spore under a scope to noc agar?

I've seen - and + spore illustrations. Is this out dated information?

When mix variety are created, is it easier with isolated strains? Do they at that point need - and + to interact or am I out to lunch.

Sorry for the amount of questions. You seem knowledgeable.


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Offlinemagicschoolbus
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26474843 - 02/08/20 12:13 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

BlueTryptoYoshi said:
So a single strain isolation and a monoculture are technically the same?




mono = one ... one culture
single strain isolate = one culture

Quote:


You said monoculture is a single spore germinated..
Wouldnt an isolated strain be essentially a mono at that point? 




If a single spore germinated, then yes, there would only be one culture actively growing, the single spore being the point of origin for the whole culture. If only one spore germinated, then you know the mycelium contains the same genetic makeup throughout the culture. If 10 spores germinated, then there would be 10 strains growing inside of the culture.. assuming all the spores are next to eachother/piled on top. If 10 spores germinated all a few mm away from eachother but weren't touching, yes they'd each be a monoculture, but once they grew over top eachother, then the whole plate of agar would represent a single cultures, with multiple strains inside of it.

Quote:


Is it possible to separate a single spore under a scope to noc agar?




Yes, it's definitely possible. We just told you there has been members of Shroomery who have done this to start experimental strains. I don't know exactly how, but I'd imagine it involves very tiny pipettes, maybe a special type of solution in tiny amounts that "suck" up nearby microscopic organisms like an oil or suspension. I think if you were to get a 1cc drop of water with spores in it, you could keep diluting or concentration the solution to narrow down the amount of spores found in the dilution/concentration

Quote:


I've seen - and + spore illustrations. Is this out dated information?



I'm not familiar, never seen it.

Quote:


When mix variety are created, is it easier with isolated strains? Do they at that point need - and + to interact or am I out to lunch.



Do you mean crossing strains when you say "mix variety"? I believe crossing strains utilizes mycelium with a special characteristic  that allows it to clamp to other mycelium... I don't really know much about this because I've only read about it a handful of times.  I forget what the "characteristic" is exactly. For example, if you put B+ and PE mycelium on a agar plate, they're just gonna grow around eachother and there will be a obvious border where they avoid eachother. When mycelium is "compatible" between two different cultures, they will clamp to eachother, and will not grow around.


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Edited by magicschoolbus (02/08/20 12:13 AM)


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: magicschoolbus]
    #26475020 - 02/08/20 06:45 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)


Or does this go back to Paul Stamets being wrong, outdated etc.

Wow thanks for answering my questions!
Appreciated so much.


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Offlineiwh678
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: FooMan]
    #26475043 - 02/08/20 07:20 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




This is correct a monokaryon will not fruit. Mushrooms are the sexual reproductive structures of fungi and it requires a dikaryotic system to form.

Fungal sex is really weird you could take an entire graduate level course on the subject.


Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mix when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it




Spores are nothing like plant seeds. Plant seeds contain all of the genetic information of the organism while spores contain half because they are the product of meiosis. Spores would be better compared to pollen or sperm. I think that you know that though and that's kinda what you are describing, but that analogy could really confuse some people.


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475080 - 02/08/20 07:48 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:


This is correct a monokaryon will not fruit. Mushrooms are the sexual reproductive structures of fungi and it requires a dikaryotic system to form.

Fungal sex is really weird you could take an entire graduate level course on the subject.




So then you need 2 compatable spores. They can each grow mycelium, then the mycelium of each compatible spore needs to do there thing and fruit... .. This illustration is true then? Not outdated?

So if one were to isolate a single spore under a scope, it would not give fruits? That's boggling.

I think anything microscopic is probably more baffling than we expect.
I love this info.. dont stop lol


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475081 - 02/08/20 07:53 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

iwh678 said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




This is correct a monokaryon will not fruit. Mushrooms are the sexual reproductive structures of fungi and it requires a dikaryotic system to form.

Fungal sex is really weird you could take an entire graduate level course on the subject.


Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mix when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it




Spores are nothing like plant seeds. Plant seeds contain all of the genetic information of the organism while spores contain half because they are the product of meiosis. Spores would be better compared to pollen or sperm. I think that you know that though and that's kinda what you are describing, but that analogy could really confuse some people.




The seed analogy explains how it germinates alone but sperm and pollen doesnt.


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Offlineiwh678
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26475092 - 02/08/20 08:00 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

But it will also confuse people. If you tell someone who knows next to nothing about mycology that a spore is like a see they will assume a spore sprouts and becomes a mushroom.

Quote:

BlueTryptoYoshi said:
Quote:


This is correct a monokaryon will not fruit. Mushrooms are the sexual reproductive structures of fungi and it requires a dikaryotic system to form.

Fungal sex is really weird you could take an entire graduate level course on the subject.




So then you need 2 compatable spores. They can each grow mycelium, then the mycelium of each compatible spore needs to do there thing and fruit... .. This illustration is true then? Not outdated?

So if one were to isolate a single spore under a scope, it would not give fruits? That's boggling.

I think anything microscopic is probably more baffling than we expect.
I love this info.. dont stop lol




A lot of people have put misinformation on here because they have diluted their spores and assumed they ended up with a monokaryon. The problem is spores like to stick together. It is much harder to do than a lot of people here realize.


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475100 - 02/08/20 08:07 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

iwh678 said:
But it will also confuse people. If you tell someone who knows next to nothing about mycology that a spore is like a see they will assume a spore sprouts and becomes a mushroom.





lol, a sperm that can germinate and colonise a substrate without an egg........ Simples......... I'll get my coat


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Offlineiwh678
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Edmunter]
    #26475121 - 02/08/20 08:28 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Where did I say that?

A spore can't complete its life cycle without another just like a sperm can't without an egg. They are both they are both haploids and seed is a diploid.


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475125 - 02/08/20 08:34 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mix when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it





Quote:

iwh678 said:
Where did I say that?

A spore can't complete its life cycle without another just like a sperm can't without an egg. They are both they are both haploids and seed is a diploid.



Not confusing at all..........


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475129 - 02/08/20 08:37 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Ok that’s what I thought, but there’s such an incredible amount of information to take in on this site it’s easy to mix things up.

I think In that quote when I said fruit he took it as germinate is all.

No kidding about taking a master class on fungi, sometimes I feel like with the amount of time and studying I put in on here I should just be back in college getting credits.


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LAGM2020


Edited by A.k.a (02/08/20 08:39 AM)


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475140 - 02/08/20 08:45 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Yeah this is nuts.

So back up a bit. 

Can anyone show me a link where I can find pictures of a grown out mushroom monoculture/isolation fruited and describe why this is valuable or a popular goal?

I see many people talk about the task of isolating strong strains, making a single spore isolation a goal.
Disregaurding the chance they could have a questionable grow of potency, size, weight until they completed the mycelium life cycle.. grow mushrooms etc...
Wouldnt a ms grow typically be they easiest way to practically guarantee great fruits? I'm just wondering.. can anyone show me some pictures. Google doesn't really understand the vocabulary.



This looks much more complicated than imagined.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26475145 - 02/08/20 08:49 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

I think in that case they’re doing it from a clone, so it would be a monoculture that can produce mushrooms.

I’ve seen people use a needle to pick up a single spore under the scope and germ it to get a monoculture with the goal of introducing two of them together to form a fruiting strain or cross.

I’ve heard figures like only ten percent or less of monocultures are worth growing because like you said there’s only one strain so if it’s slow or weak that’s all you get.

Ms is more like taking the average of all the strains rather than a crapshoot on just one.


I think.


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LAGM2020


Edited by A.k.a (02/08/20 08:52 AM)


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Offlineiwh678
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26475152 - 02/08/20 08:55 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Edmunter said:
Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mi
x when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it





Quote:

iwh678 said:
Where did I say that?

A spore can't complete its life cycle without another just like a sperm can't without an egg. They are both they are both haploids and seed is a diploid.



Not confusing at all..........




If you don't see how comparing a spore to seed while on the topic of if a monokaryon can fruit would confuse a laymen then I'm at a loss.

Quote:

BlueTryptoYoshi said:
Yeah this is nuts.

So back up a bit. 

Can anyone show me a link where I can find pictures of a grown out mushroom monoculture/isolation fruited and describe why this is valuable or a popular goal?

I see many people talk about the task of isolating strong strains, making a single spore isolation a goal.
Disregaurding the chance they could have a questionable grow of potency, size, weight until they completed the mycelium life cycle.. grow mushrooms etc...
Wouldnt a ms grow typically be they easiest way to practically guarantee great fruits? I'm just wondering.. can anyone show me some pictures. Google doesn't really understand the vocabulary.



This looks much more complicated than imagined.




Imagine it like this. A sperm and an egg need to fuse to create a human. Fungi are the same way, but they do not have genders and they're "sperm" (spores) can form hyphal networks to seek each other out.


Again a monokaryon can't fruit. Anyone who claims to have friuted one actually had a dikaryon.


Edited by iwh678 (02/08/20 08:57 AM)


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26475163 - 02/08/20 09:07 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:


I’ve seen people use a needle to pick up a single spore under the scope and germ it to get a monoculture with the goal of introducing two of them together to form a fruiting strain or 




You seen this?
So my further back question was valid? It's easier to cross strain by having 2 isolated spores of each variety.

Assuming they're the compatable types. I'm understanding there is multiple types of spores. Not just - + ?

What a rabbit hole of a morning


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26475194 - 02/08/20 09:30 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

I have no idea about negative positive.

And by seen it I mean in a thread here where the guy had a camera rigged to his scope. It’s pretty cool. Also I think that’s how pasty made rw, with single spores.


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26475214 - 02/08/20 09:51 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Will a single spore produce fruits, can you make a ms syringe from a clone without senescence? Do you need to grow out multiple strains then get a print instead?


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475228 - 02/08/20 09:59 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Ms from clone is fine.

I was told the way to develop a clone is clone-grow-print-grow-clone-print.

I’m pretty sure single spores can’t fruit


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Edited by A.k.a (02/08/20 10:00 AM)


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26475231 - 02/08/20 10:01 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

sounds sensible


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