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InvisiblePinkerton
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Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different.
    #26473966 - 02/07/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Nothing may be certain thus the atheist believes in lack of belief. He/she too is a believer. When you get whizzy you realize an atheist knows God exist unknowingly - if God exists. Keep in mind, it's all belief at this point in existence. The atheist believe in God and the atheist doesn't believe in God.

May I make the party a lot more fun by telling you, I am God. redgreenvines and orgy can confirm. :cool:


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26473971 - 02/07/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

It works in the same way for fundies. If God doesn't exist, they unknowingly know this. Like I said, it's all belief at this point in existence. Thus fundies too believe in God and disbelieve in God.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26473984 - 02/07/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Of course the atheist/fundie doesn't understand he/she believes/disbelieves contrary to their original position.


Edited by Pinkerton (02/07/20 02:10 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26474031 - 02/07/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You omit folks who never  heard of 'god'.
You omit millions who have many 'gods'.
You omit native peoples who believe in  spirits, demons, & ghosts.
As well as some other categories it doesn't take too much imagination to include.

You just assume because you had a thought, that seemed novel to yourself, that it must really be new, meaningful & useful. That is what I call a belief.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: laughingdog]
    #26474113 - 02/07/20 03:08 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You omit folks who never  heard of 'god'.
You omit millions who have many 'gods'.
You omit native peoples who believe in  spirits, demons, & ghosts.
As well as some other categories it doesn't take too much imagination to include.


What's your point?

You just assume because you had a thought, that seemed novel to yourself, that it must really be new, meaningful & useful. That is what I call a belief.

You believe you know what my feelings and intention are. What is the metric for this belief of yours? How much do you believe in knowing my feelings and intention and how much do you disbelieve in knowing my feelings and intention?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26475065 - 02/08/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

no you are not god, but you are not not god either.

this is a thread like all others you start, striving for merit at others' expense.


--------------------
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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26475104 - 02/08/20 08:11 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Atheists are not certain. They (I) just know there is no rational reason to believe. I'm an atheist because I believe in science, and don't think all the rules are supposed to change for my benefit if I'm about to die. If you believe in science, certainty never enters into the equation, but incredibly large probabilities do.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26475120 - 02/08/20 08:27 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

the spirit of scientific investigation is the most holy spirit, and that transcends any struggle with the idea of god.


--------------------
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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26475392 - 02/08/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:


What's your point?






You would have to think, to get it! Which is what you once again evidently don't want to do.
( Apparently you would rather believe than think.)
You expect me to explain my point to you, apparently because you don't want to make the effort to think for yourself.
Because the points are so simple, I will do so. It is of course pointless, to do so; but simply because it is amusing I will do so. However I needn't do so, as you just proved one of the main points, inadvertently. One can't make this stuff up.


Edited by laughingdog (02/08/20 12:15 PM)


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26482200 - 02/12/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
no you are not god, but you are not not god either.

this is a thread like all others you start, striving for merit at others' expense.



Orgy says I'm Unique Ill God. Not sure how much you really know, rgv.

Nah, I'm pointing out hypocrisy.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26482225 - 02/12/20 03:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Atheists are not certain. They (I) just know there is no rational reason to believe. I'm an atheist because I believe in science, and don't think all the rules are supposed to change for my benefit if I'm about to die. If you believe in science, certainty never enters into the equation, but incredibly large probabilities do.




If God exists atheists knows God exists unknowingly, thus they believe without understanding it and don't believe in God at this point in existence. :wink:

There may be an error in my reasoning.


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26482269 - 02/12/20 04:16 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)



What's with all the jesus freaks trying to convince atheists that they actually do already believe in god.  You guys are worse than the fucking church folk I knew growing up.

Let's turn it around for a moment...you already know there is no god.  That's why you need to spend so much time convincing everyone else that there is one.  Kind of like the closeted gay minister with a wife and kids that rails against homosexuality because deep down he really despises himself and thinks that taking it out on "the gays" will make things right in the world

Sharing opinions is one thing, but telling people what they do or should believe is fuckin stupid and rude


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #26482285 - 02/12/20 04:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:


What's with all the jesus freaks trying to convince atheists that they actually do already believe in god.  You guys are worse than the fucking church folk I knew growing up.

Let's turn it around for a moment...you already know there is no god.  That's why you need to spend so much time convincing everyone else that there is one.  Kind of like the closeted gay minister with a wife and kids that rails against homosexuality because deep down he really despises himself and thinks that taking it out on "the gays" will make things right in the world

Sharing opinions is one thing, but telling people what they do or should believe is fuckin stupid and rude



I really don't know what I am but Christian probably not.

Try again.


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26482375 - 02/12/20 05:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)



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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: laughingdog]
    #26490630 - 02/17/20 06:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Pinkerton said:


What's your point?






You would have to think, to get it! Which is what you once again evidently don't want to do.
( Apparently you would rather believe than think.)
You expect me to explain my point to you, apparently because you don't want to make the effort to think for yourself.
Because the points are so simple, I will do so. It is of course pointless, to do so; but simply because it is amusing I will do so. However I needn't do so, as you just proved one of the main points, inadvertently. One can't make this stuff up.




I only came in here because of the hilarious topic title.

Now, because of this excellent response, I am going to follow, just to find out exactly which of you is trolling the other. :popcorn:


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26494024 - 02/19/20 08:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Cults will be cults...the weak pray to others then them selfs..the strong pray to thy self..amen.


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OfflineMarkas
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26495124 - 02/20/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I don't believe in belief. Reality doesn't care what anyone believes.  Those who believe in god and other nonsense are simply fucking idiots not deserving of any consideration.  They are a lower form of human life holding back evolution.  Fuck them and their children.  May they die young and reproduce less for the sake of true Homo SAPIENS!


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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Markas]
    #26527074 - 03/10/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Markas said:
I don't believe in belief.



You don't really believe that do you?


--------------------


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: TheStallionMang] * 1
    #26530711 - 03/12/20 10:36 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:


What's with all the jesus freaks trying to convince atheists that they actually do already believe in god.  You guys are worse than the fucking church folk I knew growing up.

Let's turn it around for a moment...you already know there is no god.  That's why you need to spend so much time convincing everyone else that there is one.  Kind of like the closeted gay minister with a wife and kids that rails against homosexuality because deep down he really despises himself and thinks that taking it out on "the gays" will make things right in the world

Sharing opinions is one thing, but telling people what they do or should believe is fuckin stupid and rude




IMHO, that's the most correct reply of them all.

Quote:

I'm an atheist because I believe in science




Science doesn't need a retinue or followers. Science is the perception, through an epistemological process, of reality itself. Either you accept it or you don't and live in denial. There's nothing faith related to it. Although some may argue about the influence of subjective options when you create the hypothesis in the scientific method, there's no "believe" in science. Only knowledge.

With that being said, the most legitimate way to understand the subject, IMHO, is directly related to the understanding of both concepts: Faith and Knowledge. For that purpose there is this well known chart:



For example, I consider myself an agnostic theist - more exactly a deist instead of a theist - because I do feel I do believe in something but my thought process can not validate it. Still, such thought exists and I give it the meaning I think they deserve. Nevertheless, anything religious that I believe in, is inconsequential and just has an intrinsic personal value for myself. Not reality and not the others.


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: MAIA]
    #26530776 - 03/12/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
IMHO, that's the most correct reply of them all.




Thank you, that's very nice of you to say
:seriousthankyou:


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Offlinekitten6
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26531045 - 03/12/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

by definition science isn't a religion. Science is the collective practice of accumulating knowledge by applying the use of the scientific method invented in the renaissance period.

The problem is nowadays, Atheism is just too popular. Everyone is on about science now, we can all see that all the comforts and progression that we have seen throughout our lives is all but simply the product of science. Now we have become so dependant on science, more and more of us have forgotten religion, and began to reject god. But the reason why people reject god is not out of freedom of thought. It is because science suggests that religion is bullshit.

And i think that anything which ends up denying a religion must be a religion in itself. This is because anything that has the following to create support for ideas that go against another religion, must be by definition a religion. Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices.

Sure Atheism is not a religion but what is it that brings together people in such a way that it affects peoples belief and practices on a major scale and in ways that oppose other religions like all religions do.  You have religious dogmas you have scientific dogmas. Science and religion are more similar than you think. So the same things you say about religion can readily be said against science


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: kitten6]
    #26531182 - 03/12/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You are clearly confused about what science is


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: kitten6] * 1
    #26531522 - 03/12/20 06:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

kitten6 said:
by definition science isn't a religion.




:thumbup:

Quote:

kitten6 said:
Science is the collective practice of accumulating knowledge by applying the use of the scientific method invented in the renaissance period.





Science is the most objective process by which humans test reality, thus understanding it. A rock has minerals constituted of atoms which have quantified weight. Such measure serves the purpose of understanding the constituents of matter. This serves several purposes but each purpose can be validated by a scientific premise. You create laws this way because they are verifiable and expectable. Thus, such understanding becomes a map of the absolute. A way as close as possible to reality.

Quote:

kitten6 said:
It is because science suggests that religion is bullshit.





Science doesn't suggest such thing. Science just can't prove what it can't quantify. That's its intrinsic limitation and that's why the affirmation of religion, on scientific terms, is logically impossible. Nevertheless, that's the only space I can find for believers and that's why I'm not an atheist. But the absence of objective knowledge, science, on that context - the leap of faith - doesn't mean you have the grounds to prove whatever you want - long live the the irony of the spaghetti monster - that's why what I believe, not what I know, is just a bunch of thought experiments I like to play with my self and with the possibilities of the unknown. Call it god or whatever but, to me, to my experience it has a meaning, not a purpose by itself, just a meaning. I like to think I set the purpose, if ever deemed needed.

Quote:

kitten6 said:
And i think that anything which ends up denying a religion must be a religion in itself. This is because anything that has the following to create support for ideas that go against another religion, must be by definition a religion. Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices.





That's why you don't understand the meaning of science and you show it. Science is not a set of beliefs, it's a set ideas which are verifiable and proved in this reality. There might be other dimensions, aliens, higher gods, lower gods, santa, the spaghetti monster, even good and evil. What matters is what we know of it. What we can measure in the most different and limited ways. So, please, fathom about what you don't know, what you believe, but please, get over it. It's just a bunch of unproved concepts and ideas. From here to religion goes a long, long way. You really need to be indoctrinated to achieve such length.

Quote:

kitten6 said:
Sure Atheism is not a religion but what is it that brings together people in such a way that it affects peoples belief and practices on a major scale and in ways that oppose other religions like all religions do.  You have religious dogmas you have scientific dogmas. Science and religion are more similar than you think. So the same things you say about religion can readily be said against science




Personally, it's a question of acceptance. If whatever I believe contradicts what I know, I will always go with what I know. The contrary - you have to admit it - is a fucking Russian roulette ...


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Edited by MAIA (03/12/20 07:03 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: MAIA]
    #26532415 - 03/13/20 10:05 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think you can call nature god, but there is no simple comprehensive way of knowing what one's rights and obligations are to this god, or to society and technology that insulates us from nature/god, and yet which is also part of nature/god.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26532635 - 03/13/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I've experienced certain things my fellow brother.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton] * 1
    #26532963 - 03/13/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

certainty is not all it's cracked up to be.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26533491 - 03/13/20 08:50 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think you can call nature god, but there is no simple comprehensive way of knowing what one's rights and obligations are to this god, or to society and technology that insulates us from nature/god, and yet which is also part of nature/god.





I think this is because god isn’t personal.  The religions especially Christianity like to peddle a god that’s caring, personal, and always has your back.  Ime god is the complete opposite.  Impersonal and is amused through tragedy and glory.  In the few authentic religious experiences I’ve had there’s always this “circusy” vibe to the exchange.  Like we’re performing stunts and aerials to the delight of this omnipresent creator lord that is impersonally amused by all the stunts playing out.  Death, carnage, glory it’s all the same and in good fun.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26533966 - 03/14/20 05:50 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think you can call nature god, but there is no simple comprehensive way of knowing what one's rights and obligations are to this god, or to society and technology that insulates us from nature/god, and yet which is also part of nature/god.





I think this is because god isn’t personal.  The religions especially Christianity like to peddle a god that’s caring, personal, and always has your back.  Ime god is the complete opposite.  Impersonal and is amused through tragedy and glory.  In the few authentic religious experiences I’ve had there’s always this “circusy” vibe to the exchange.  Like we’re performing stunts and aerials to the delight of this omnipresent creator lord that is impersonally amused by all the stunts playing out.  Death, carnage, glory it’s all the same and in good fun.




Hmm.

If you really do believe in a god like that... have you considered atheism? :cool:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26533969 - 03/14/20 05:51 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

they are peddling a manipulative construct, one that might serve to improve morality and behavior


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Offlinekitten6
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: MAIA]
    #26534018 - 03/14/20 06:34 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

well yes I probably haven't made it clear, science as the actual definition of science doesn't do any of the things I claimed it to do. It is the collective practice of science, where suddenly it's not just science, science is the underlying method (which can still be exploited), the collective practice of science by human beings brings in the human factor, human nature, and collective behaviour is mixed into an institution that practices science. If you have ever experienced universities and other scientific institutions, the amount of politics, bullshit and spam flying around is extraordinary. You don't have to publish science any more for the sake of science, there is also money involved people can make money from science, and science can make money from people.

If you compared a scientific institution with a religious institution how many similarities do you think there will be. Science is not a religion, but it's the same human nature that can give it the same effect that a religion can have.

And even then, you will see the uneducated people the people who aren't clear on what science really is, they will see scientist as a source for the truth, to explain the things that haven't been explained yet and some scientists especially like to play that role they enjoy supposedly being the ones who know more, the "experts" in a certain field as people will be looking up to them for information. But in fact science isn't about telling the people what's right and wrong what's true and false and what to believe in (which is what a religion is). In fact science is the exact opposite the whole purpose of science is to try and do whatever you can to disprove what we think we already know. But even then you still have dogmas in science however they may not last as long as in religions as the whole concept of religion is based on dogma rather than scientific method.

But yeah i guess i didn't make my point clear earlier. But thanks for ironing out any contradictions i may have put forward.


Edited by kitten6 (03/14/20 06:37 AM)


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: kitten6]
    #26534094 - 03/14/20 07:42 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think I can agree with you on your point of many “uneducated people” using the fallacy of appealing to the expert quite often. Tho, I also diverge slightly, I am able to see value in the expert opinion.

Scientists. People who are in involved in actual research, IMO, are mostly serious about it.
They may have normal human bias, but, I am not sure that could ever be fully excluded from any piece of knowledge. However, the scientific methods and peer review are excellent ways to mitigate more dubious biases.

Sure, there is money in research. If we look at the actual research papers, not just articles, many times you will be able to clearly see the strength or weakness of the particular study and weigh it as evidence from there.

And an even greater point is, even if money is in research, does that automatically invalidate the research?

There is a lot of money is religion. :smile:

Thanks for explaining what you meant, it did help me a lot.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26534146 - 03/14/20 08:08 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
certainty is not all it's cracked up to be.



I think you may be wrong, compared to what I feel now and have been feeling for most of my life.

If I ever experience certainty. :strokebeard:

Keep in mind: if it sounds good to be true... it must be OC. Which way to interpret that and if it's something truly good I'm kind of uncertain but I tend to believe it's something magical - in the awesome way. OC said in the Council of Elders-thread it is totally awesome. The stuff I experienced: clairvoyance, hearing a crystal clear voice saying *name* and then when I cross the corner I see *name*. People turning their heads, very automatic - at the same time looking at me. One night I dreamt of Kylian Mbappe (soccer player for Paris St. Germain) scoring exactly two goals in the next match, so he did, I never dream such things. OC claiming I'm Unique Ill God, LunarEclipse saying I'm becoming a god etc. OC saying I'm going to marry PT. OC blocking me on the forums. And a lot of other weird happenings occuring after the Council of Elders-thread was posted (which is now nearly 7 years ago). My life has turned upside down but I believe something good will come out of it - that's what keeps me going. If things pointed towards something horrible I think I would kill myself. :shrug:

If only these crazy running thoughts would stop, my anxiety would stop and especially my depression would stop.

There's something out of the ordinary going on. I think you know that, rgv. :wink:


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26535142 - 03/14/20 04:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think you can call nature god, but there is no simple comprehensive way of knowing what one's rights and obligations are to this god, or to society and technology that insulates us from nature/god, and yet which is also part of nature/god.





I think this is because god isn’t personal.  The religions especially Christianity like to peddle a god that’s caring, personal, and always has your back.  Ime god is the complete opposite.  Impersonal and is amused through tragedy and glory.  In the few authentic religious experiences I’ve had there’s always this “circusy” vibe to the exchange.  Like we’re performing stunts and aerials to the delight of this omnipresent creator lord that is impersonally amused by all the stunts playing out.  Death, carnage, glory it’s all the same and in good fun.




Hmm.

If you really do believe in a god like that... have you considered atheism? :cool:




I’m a theist.  In the spirit of trusting direct experience, consciousness, and all that.

You ?


Edited by Yellow Pants (03/14/20 04:23 PM)


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26535238 - 03/14/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Similar.

I change my mind often enough that I don’t like to pick a label for my beliefs if I don’t have too.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26535736 - 03/15/20 12:16 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Similar.

I change my mind often enough that I don’t like to pick a label for my beliefs if I don’t have too.





I mean like trusting religious/mystical experiences I’ve had and then later saying that I believe in the existence of a god.  So I think different.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26536097 - 03/15/20 07:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:...
There's something out of the ordinary going on. I think you know that, rgv. :wink:



there is more that is outside of the ordinary, than inside of the ordinary.

still if you want your mind to stop making a racket you will have to learn to sit still, quietly and calmly.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26536137 - 03/15/20 08:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You are right in saying that currently in this day yes most scientists take their work seriously, most scientists are dedicated to progression in their field. Of course with peer review it makes it very difficult for bogus research to go anywhere amongst the academic community. However it isn't the scientifically unacquainted that go about reading peer review papers. They are more likely to fall into the trap reading dumb articles on word-press and other shit coming from self entitled arm chair scientists because the amount of verbal diarrhoea coming from these sources is honestly astonishing, and what's even more surprising is the amount of people who actually read this bullshit. So i correct myself, a lot things that unscientific people will read doesn't come from bullshit scientists rather it comes from bullshit bullshitters. Now I am not saying that a lot of scientists don't bullshit either, but rather than causing damage in their field instead it just slows progress, because even in peer review it takes time for shit to get processed.

A wise old man once said, an eminent scientist slows progression in their own field, a very eminent scientist slows progression in other fields as well. When a scientist becomes well known, it often fuels an ego in them and we all know that egos and scientific method don't go together.

And about money, true, large sums of money doesn't make research invalid often enough the research would be impossible in the first place without large sums of money. Especially as we advance forward, research becomes more and more advanced therefore more and more expensive. And I think that a product of this is the growing attraction between business and university. University management is shifting from the interests of science, to the interests of business. Suddenly when research costs become so high, the research is at the mercy of the businesses. Universities start to adopt a target based approach to research and education, and this is especially the case in the bigger universities where I live in Manchester where universities are beginning to be run like businesses, this goes to the point where university staff with their trade unions go out onto the streets and have little demonstrations every now and then. This is happening all over Europe at the moment apart from in France and Italy.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26536201 - 03/15/20 09:01 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
still if you want your mind to stop making a racket you will have to learn to sit still, quietly and calmly.



I've tried to do just that, even deep breathing and meditating. OC is creating the crazy running thoughts.

How much do you really know about this stuff, rgv?


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26536315 - 03/15/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I know what I need to know to type on my keyboard,
it does not matter really what I know,
you know you have to try to sit calmly or you never will,
others cannot do it for you.

that is the mystery of self. that which nobody else can do.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: kitten6]
    #26536381 - 03/15/20 10:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, I don’t disagree, the academic system in the US is fucked too.

I was meaning for gathering and judging information for individual use.

As far as the point about the ignorant masses. I generally try not to concern myself for two major reasons.

1. I respect the individual too much to believe that they are not able to understand complex subjects. If I take a random person and assume they are more ignorant than I am, how can I also respect them? This also causes me not to feel compelled to rescue the sheeple, as some do. They aren’t sheeple. They are people, which is made of persons. Like, myself.

2. I don’t believe I know everything, or really too much of anything. Thus, I feel I would be presumptuous to judge a person or group of persons as incapable of the ability to think for themselves. Even when I think they are thinking wrongly... I also have thought wrongly many times, and probably still do. I can’t judge “them” without feeling a bit hypocritical.

Not saying you should be like me, just that it seems to work for me. :sun:

I think we might be way off topic too:

So, what do you think about this fad of “atheism” that’s been going around? People believe the strangest things, don’t they? Seems pretty ridiculous to me.  :grin:


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26536425 - 03/15/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

haha yeah these athiests u know what are they on about, saying there is no god and then admitting that you can't disprove god only to say that you can't prove god either.

all seems a bit baseless really.

But to be honest I don't really see the point having to give yourself a label like that, you have to pretty sure about yourself to do such a thing. I don't really see where that sureness comes from?? Maybe they just didn't like going to church as a kid. But I can't really say cause I never went myself.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: kitten6]
    #26536438 - 03/15/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

It’s a response to religious fundamentalism, or anybody who says a bit too confidently that they saw something special. The thought process of the atheist is usually pretty simple.  Often times more of a criticism of others than a real stance.  I haven’t heard a good stance on atheism other than “prove it” or “religion is stupid”.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26536554 - 03/15/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I know what I need to know to type on my keyboard,
it does not matter really what I know,
you know you have to try to sit calmly or you never will,
others cannot do it for you.

that is the mystery of self. that which nobody else can do.



Of course it matters what you know, you may help ease my situation and explain to me WTF is going on. But I suppose that is not a part of the programme, let the elect suffer. :sad:

It's funny you tell me to sit calmly in my chair. I lay in my bed most of the day, calmly.

The mystery of myself is OC knows me more than I know myself fer chrissakez.

Some years back after I was forced into the program OC posted a video of a mantis or something, the man talking in the background tried to be funny and I laughed hard to myself thinking ironically that is OC's humour. Guess what, the next post OC posted in the thread he posted something like "Yes, this is exactly my humor." completely out of the blue, I.E it had no relevance to the threads previous posts. Can't find the thread now.

You never post direct answers, rgv, it's all beating around the bush.  :shakefist:


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26536884 - 03/15/20 03:33 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

more like right in the thicket, than beating around the bush.
but I can say I know nothing about your OC history and subsequent issues.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26538494 - 03/16/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Hopefully, you will know more "When the stewdent is ready...".


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26538935 - 03/16/20 03:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26539223 - 03/16/20 07:05 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the spirit of scientific investigation is the most holy spirit, and that transcends any struggle with the idea of god.




Are you drunk dude?


--------------------
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26539884 - 03/17/20 03:33 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Have you changed your mustache, rgv?

It looks like me though. :shakefist:


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26540022 - 03/17/20 06:02 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the spirit of scientific investigation is the most holy spirit, and that transcends any struggle with the idea of god.




Are you drunk dude?



alcohol is not my thing


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26540152 - 03/17/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Then maybe it should be because that was total nonsense. You like science woop dee fucking doo da. No need to push your shit onto everyone else like some kind of Mormon.

I don't see any reason we all need to start being scientists, sure science has some marvellous achievements (and some catastrophes). Firstly, the tale is science is one yet to be told, and secondly the world coped just fine without them for centuries and there were already plenty of blessings... reason, logic, discrimination, love (this list can go on and on) without it.

Don't act like, or try to sell me on, the idea that your beanstalk transcends someone else's because you have no way of knowing that. So many of the problems of the past can be reduced to all the saviour types doing exactly that and then people herd up and don't listen to one another. "most holy thing" my arse, you have no idea.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26540573 - 03/17/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

ok, let me ask you, if there is a vaccine for covid, would you take it?


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26540641 - 03/17/20 11:55 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Whatever that has to do with the spirit of science being the most holy thing i have no idea. I could very well ask you whether if you had a nuke would you drop it. Einstein said yes do it.


--------------------
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26540784 - 03/17/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Science is a method to achieve greatness or despair. It's all up to humanity what they want to achieve with science.

Science is the holy spirit if advancements in brain research and the medical field can fix our emotional issues through permanent empathogenic medicines.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26540883 - 03/17/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26542170 - 03/18/20 07:43 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26542319 - 03/18/20 09:19 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think a lot of people look to science as a way, or kind of hope that the products of science may be able to ease their sufferings. Things people are scared of like disease, hard work, war and more ranging from minor to life threatening have a chance of being solved by some form of science. In general people who are scared of dying look to science as a way to postpone.

But I think it's not good to encourage the idea of trying to escape suffering. People need to learn to live with it. And if it means you die, you die, better luck in the next life. You try and escape, normally it won't get you anywhere and even if it does, it will only cause you numerous more problems in the process.

Religion on the other hand gives people the hope that things may get better as well. By praying enough eventually you learn how to cope with your issues. And if you die it's no big deal you'll always get another chance in the next life.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: kitten6]
    #26542818 - 03/18/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think of the gifts of science or god, but in science I can understand how things are, I can see how they work together, it is a meditation upon what is, all of what is.
science is sort of like hunting, but hunting without killing, just finding more of what is.

maybe an extension of childhood discovery?

In that way science is exciting. all kinds of people get into it. many are crazy kooks, but all have something in common, and it is not about the gifts they will get, it's about revealing what is underneath what we take for granted.
of course some like Prometheus bring fire to the tribe, and Archimedes spilled water...


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26543072 - 03/18/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Einstein did not support use of nuclear weapons.




https://www.businessinsider.com/albert-einstein-wrote-letter-us-roosvelt-atomic-bomb-2019-8?r=US&IR=T

But he did, and he regretted it his whole life apparently. It's pretty well known. Even supposing we only assume it's true in theory it seems to me that science is very much in need of stuggling with thoughts about karmic law (god?), and you could easily say that makes that struggle for sanity a higher and holier spirit than that of science alone.

To quote some Tesla

“The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.”


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26543997 - 03/19/20 06:54 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Not so much that he supported the bomb, but he did support atomic research and knew that the balance of power with the Axis crucially required equivalent knowledge development in the USA.

He did regret that supremacy in this knowledge was a terrible path of escalation but as the man in the high castle suggests, it was better this way.

Quote:

from grapefruit's link which scrolls endlessly:
Einstein sent Roosevelt:
Sir:
Some recent work by E. Fermi and L. Szilard, which has been communicated to me in manuscript, leads me to expect that the element uranium may be turned into a new and important source of energy in the immediate future. Certain aspects of the situation which has arisen seem to call for watchfulness and, if necessary, quick action on the part of the Administration. I believe therefore that it is my duty to bring to your attention the following facts and recommendations:
In the course of the last four months it has been made probable — through the work of Joliot in France as well as Fermi and Szilard in America — that it may become possible to set up a nuclear chain reaction in a large mass of uranium, by which vast amounts of power and large quantities of new radium-like elements would be generated. Now it appears almost certain that this could be achieved in the immediate future.
This new phenomenon would also lead to the construction of bombs, and it is conceivable — though much less certain — that extremely powerful bombs of a new type may thus be constructed. A single bomb of this type, carried by boat and exploded in a port, might very well destroy the whole port together with some of the surrounding territory. However, such bombs might very well prove to be too heavy for transportation by air.
The United States has only very poor ores of uranium in moderate quantities. There is some good ore in Canada and the former Czechoslovakia, while the most important source of uranium is Belgian Congo.
In view of this situation you may think it desirable to have some permanent contact maintained between the Administration and the group of physicists working on chain reactions in America. One possible way of achieving this might be for you to entrust with this task a person who has your confidence and who could perhaps serve in an inofficial capacity. His task might comprise the following:
a) to approach Government Departments, keep them informed of the further development, and put forward recommendations for Government action, giving particular attention to the problem of securing a supply of uranium ore for the United States;
b) to speed up the experimental work, which is at present being carried on within the limits of the budgets of University laboratories, by providing funds, if such funds be required, through his contacts with private persons who are willing to make contributions for this cause, and perhaps also by obtaining the co-operation of industrial laboratories which have the necessary equipment.
I understand that Germany has actually stopped the sale of uranium from the Czechoslovakian mines which she has taken over. That she should have taken such early action might perhaps be understood on the ground that the son of the German Under-Secretary of State, von Weizsäcker, is attached to the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institut in Berlin where some of the American work on uranium is now being repeated.
Yours very truly,
A.E.




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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26544018 - 03/19/20 07:05 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Eh, excuses. Sticking up for your man. My link puts across the four main points in bold right at the start. Also ignored and didn't respond to the principle of it in theory that I laid down. Carry on.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26544624 - 03/19/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

would you vaccinate or not?


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26544736 - 03/19/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

If one removes the 'I' from science, only then will it make scence.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26544742 - 03/19/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Of course. But I don't see how that relates. I'm not suggesting we go back to the stone ages here. How about you actually respond to the point I was making. Namely that to call science alone the highest and say that struggling with ideas about god, philosophy, or how to live are near worthless beside it is a ridiculous assertion. You say that and yet here you are struggling with it just like I am (or perhaps you really aren't bothered), it's totally hypocritical.

This seems to be a common flaw with the rationalist. They think they have it all figured out.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26545064 - 03/19/20 03:54 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Of course. But I don't see how that relates. I'm not suggesting we go back to the stone ages here. How about you actually respond to the point I was making. Namely that to call science alone the highest and say that struggling with ideas about god, philosophy, or how to live are near worthless beside it is a ridiculous assertion. You say that and yet here you are struggling with it just like I am (or perhaps you really aren't bothered), it's totally hypocritical.

This seems to be a common flaw with the rationalist. They think they have it all figured out.



wait a minute, you must be confusing me with somebody else.
I truly never would have said "that struggling with ideas about god, philosophy, or how to live are near worthless".

I think that one must strive to transcend themselves, including morally, philosophically, scholastically, religiously and physically. It is most important.

I would not be here if I did not think that way.

However, I am somewhat of a critical thinker, so when words get twisted, I want to unravel them.

I do love theory, and I enjoy devising tests for theory before accepting theoretical premises as fact, or assume they mean what they do not mean by persons that do not really understand.

It is about being true to myself. I keep refining that. (also now that you invoke god, I know of no two people that actually agree totally about god, so I do not feel so bad leaving that issue behind science which is about testing and being true to my self.)


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26545141 - 03/19/20 04:39 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Okay well I can definitely dig all of that. I just think you're overstating it and being way too romantic to start calling the spirit of science the most holy spirit. It sounds a little cracked to me.

When I use god it is just a way of speaking (loosely) mostly at least thats how it goes for me i dont like to get too deep into it either. Edit: Mind you I think that shit does work for some people.


Edited by Grapefruit (03/19/20 08:20 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26545904 - 03/20/20 05:58 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

if there were some thing that would be better if more developed, it would be human integrity. that would involve understanding. that would involve science.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26546381 - 03/20/20 10:39 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

To a degree probably but that degree is going to be different for everybody. Everyone has their own path and way to go.


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26546741 - 03/20/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

yah


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26548030 - 03/21/20 02:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think one thing is that the lingo of science is very complex for a lot of people especially if they don't have that kind of training or extensive education. I see this a lot in DQs posts. They make a lot of sense but they are difficult for me to get on with and understand properly.

I think sometimes discussing truth in simple and direct ways has more value in it given that it doesn't leave anyone out.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26548165 - 03/21/20 06:07 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

simple truths work in simple language,
but that same language does not handle complexity very well.
in fact, some scientific descriptions are impossible to comprehend in language alone without a diagram.
fortunately those diagrams exist, however they are not that easy to look at either.
at least with science the crumbs are there and can be followed and critiqued by peers and the path can be furthered by studious and dedicated scientists.
the links and meaning in science are not dependent upon any belief or practice, or vague dependencies.

in any case, the universe exists, and we are in it, and we can all understand ourselves if we look consistently, even without a diagram, but we have to look, and be honest about what we see, and about when that changes. we may never understand anything else very well.


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