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Offlinekitten6
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26531045 - 03/12/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

by definition science isn't a religion. Science is the collective practice of accumulating knowledge by applying the use of the scientific method invented in the renaissance period.

The problem is nowadays, Atheism is just too popular. Everyone is on about science now, we can all see that all the comforts and progression that we have seen throughout our lives is all but simply the product of science. Now we have become so dependant on science, more and more of us have forgotten religion, and began to reject god. But the reason why people reject god is not out of freedom of thought. It is because science suggests that religion is bullshit.

And i think that anything which ends up denying a religion must be a religion in itself. This is because anything that has the following to create support for ideas that go against another religion, must be by definition a religion. Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices.

Sure Atheism is not a religion but what is it that brings together people in such a way that it affects peoples belief and practices on a major scale and in ways that oppose other religions like all religions do.  You have religious dogmas you have scientific dogmas. Science and religion are more similar than you think. So the same things you say about religion can readily be said against science


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: kitten6]
    #26531182 - 03/12/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You are clearly confused about what science is


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: kitten6] * 1
    #26531522 - 03/12/20 06:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

kitten6 said:
by definition science isn't a religion.




:thumbup:

Quote:

kitten6 said:
Science is the collective practice of accumulating knowledge by applying the use of the scientific method invented in the renaissance period.





Science is the most objective process by which humans test reality, thus understanding it. A rock has minerals constituted of atoms which have quantified weight. Such measure serves the purpose of understanding the constituents of matter. This serves several purposes but each purpose can be validated by a scientific premise. You create laws this way because they are verifiable and expectable. Thus, such understanding becomes a map of the absolute. A way as close as possible to reality.

Quote:

kitten6 said:
It is because science suggests that religion is bullshit.





Science doesn't suggest such thing. Science just can't prove what it can't quantify. That's its intrinsic limitation and that's why the affirmation of religion, on scientific terms, is logically impossible. Nevertheless, that's the only space I can find for believers and that's why I'm not an atheist. But the absence of objective knowledge, science, on that context - the leap of faith - doesn't mean you have the grounds to prove whatever you want - long live the the irony of the spaghetti monster - that's why what I believe, not what I know, is just a bunch of thought experiments I like to play with my self and with the possibilities of the unknown. Call it god or whatever but, to me, to my experience it has a meaning, not a purpose by itself, just a meaning. I like to think I set the purpose, if ever deemed needed.

Quote:

kitten6 said:
And i think that anything which ends up denying a religion must be a religion in itself. This is because anything that has the following to create support for ideas that go against another religion, must be by definition a religion. Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices.





That's why you don't understand the meaning of science and you show it. Science is not a set of beliefs, it's a set ideas which are verifiable and proved in this reality. There might be other dimensions, aliens, higher gods, lower gods, santa, the spaghetti monster, even good and evil. What matters is what we know of it. What we can measure in the most different and limited ways. So, please, fathom about what you don't know, what you believe, but please, get over it. It's just a bunch of unproved concepts and ideas. From here to religion goes a long, long way. You really need to be indoctrinated to achieve such length.

Quote:

kitten6 said:
Sure Atheism is not a religion but what is it that brings together people in such a way that it affects peoples belief and practices on a major scale and in ways that oppose other religions like all religions do.  You have religious dogmas you have scientific dogmas. Science and religion are more similar than you think. So the same things you say about religion can readily be said against science




Personally, it's a question of acceptance. If whatever I believe contradicts what I know, I will always go with what I know. The contrary - you have to admit it - is a fucking Russian roulette ...


--------------------
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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Edited by MAIA (03/12/20 07:03 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: MAIA]
    #26532415 - 03/13/20 10:05 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think you can call nature god, but there is no simple comprehensive way of knowing what one's rights and obligations are to this god, or to society and technology that insulates us from nature/god, and yet which is also part of nature/god.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26532635 - 03/13/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I've experienced certain things my fellow brother.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton] * 1
    #26532963 - 03/13/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

certainty is not all it's cracked up to be.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26533491 - 03/13/20 08:50 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think you can call nature god, but there is no simple comprehensive way of knowing what one's rights and obligations are to this god, or to society and technology that insulates us from nature/god, and yet which is also part of nature/god.





I think this is because god isn’t personal.  The religions especially Christianity like to peddle a god that’s caring, personal, and always has your back.  Ime god is the complete opposite.  Impersonal and is amused through tragedy and glory.  In the few authentic religious experiences I’ve had there’s always this “circusy” vibe to the exchange.  Like we’re performing stunts and aerials to the delight of this omnipresent creator lord that is impersonally amused by all the stunts playing out.  Death, carnage, glory it’s all the same and in good fun.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26533966 - 03/14/20 05:50 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think you can call nature god, but there is no simple comprehensive way of knowing what one's rights and obligations are to this god, or to society and technology that insulates us from nature/god, and yet which is also part of nature/god.





I think this is because god isn’t personal.  The religions especially Christianity like to peddle a god that’s caring, personal, and always has your back.  Ime god is the complete opposite.  Impersonal and is amused through tragedy and glory.  In the few authentic religious experiences I’ve had there’s always this “circusy” vibe to the exchange.  Like we’re performing stunts and aerials to the delight of this omnipresent creator lord that is impersonally amused by all the stunts playing out.  Death, carnage, glory it’s all the same and in good fun.




Hmm.

If you really do believe in a god like that... have you considered atheism? :cool:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26533969 - 03/14/20 05:51 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

they are peddling a manipulative construct, one that might serve to improve morality and behavior


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Offlinekitten6
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: MAIA]
    #26534018 - 03/14/20 06:34 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

well yes I probably haven't made it clear, science as the actual definition of science doesn't do any of the things I claimed it to do. It is the collective practice of science, where suddenly it's not just science, science is the underlying method (which can still be exploited), the collective practice of science by human beings brings in the human factor, human nature, and collective behaviour is mixed into an institution that practices science. If you have ever experienced universities and other scientific institutions, the amount of politics, bullshit and spam flying around is extraordinary. You don't have to publish science any more for the sake of science, there is also money involved people can make money from science, and science can make money from people.

If you compared a scientific institution with a religious institution how many similarities do you think there will be. Science is not a religion, but it's the same human nature that can give it the same effect that a religion can have.

And even then, you will see the uneducated people the people who aren't clear on what science really is, they will see scientist as a source for the truth, to explain the things that haven't been explained yet and some scientists especially like to play that role they enjoy supposedly being the ones who know more, the "experts" in a certain field as people will be looking up to them for information. But in fact science isn't about telling the people what's right and wrong what's true and false and what to believe in (which is what a religion is). In fact science is the exact opposite the whole purpose of science is to try and do whatever you can to disprove what we think we already know. But even then you still have dogmas in science however they may not last as long as in religions as the whole concept of religion is based on dogma rather than scientific method.

But yeah i guess i didn't make my point clear earlier. But thanks for ironing out any contradictions i may have put forward.


Edited by kitten6 (03/14/20 06:37 AM)


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: kitten6]
    #26534094 - 03/14/20 07:42 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think I can agree with you on your point of many “uneducated people” using the fallacy of appealing to the expert quite often. Tho, I also diverge slightly, I am able to see value in the expert opinion.

Scientists. People who are in involved in actual research, IMO, are mostly serious about it.
They may have normal human bias, but, I am not sure that could ever be fully excluded from any piece of knowledge. However, the scientific methods and peer review are excellent ways to mitigate more dubious biases.

Sure, there is money in research. If we look at the actual research papers, not just articles, many times you will be able to clearly see the strength or weakness of the particular study and weigh it as evidence from there.

And an even greater point is, even if money is in research, does that automatically invalidate the research?

There is a lot of money is religion. :smile:

Thanks for explaining what you meant, it did help me a lot.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26534146 - 03/14/20 08:08 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
certainty is not all it's cracked up to be.



I think you may be wrong, compared to what I feel now and have been feeling for most of my life.

If I ever experience certainty. :strokebeard:

Keep in mind: if it sounds good to be true... it must be OC. Which way to interpret that and if it's something truly good I'm kind of uncertain but I tend to believe it's something magical - in the awesome way. OC said in the Council of Elders-thread it is totally awesome. The stuff I experienced: clairvoyance, hearing a crystal clear voice saying *name* and then when I cross the corner I see *name*. People turning their heads, very automatic - at the same time looking at me. One night I dreamt of Kylian Mbappe (soccer player for Paris St. Germain) scoring exactly two goals in the next match, so he did, I never dream such things. OC claiming I'm Unique Ill God, LunarEclipse saying I'm becoming a god etc. OC saying I'm going to marry PT. OC blocking me on the forums. And a lot of other weird happenings occuring after the Council of Elders-thread was posted (which is now nearly 7 years ago). My life has turned upside down but I believe something good will come out of it - that's what keeps me going. If things pointed towards something horrible I think I would kill myself. :shrug:

If only these crazy running thoughts would stop, my anxiety would stop and especially my depression would stop.

There's something out of the ordinary going on. I think you know that, rgv. :wink:


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26535142 - 03/14/20 04:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think you can call nature god, but there is no simple comprehensive way of knowing what one's rights and obligations are to this god, or to society and technology that insulates us from nature/god, and yet which is also part of nature/god.





I think this is because god isn’t personal.  The religions especially Christianity like to peddle a god that’s caring, personal, and always has your back.  Ime god is the complete opposite.  Impersonal and is amused through tragedy and glory.  In the few authentic religious experiences I’ve had there’s always this “circusy” vibe to the exchange.  Like we’re performing stunts and aerials to the delight of this omnipresent creator lord that is impersonally amused by all the stunts playing out.  Death, carnage, glory it’s all the same and in good fun.




Hmm.

If you really do believe in a god like that... have you considered atheism? :cool:




I’m a theist.  In the spirit of trusting direct experience, consciousness, and all that.

You ?


Edited by Yellow Pants (03/14/20 04:23 PM)


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26535238 - 03/14/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Similar.

I change my mind often enough that I don’t like to pick a label for my beliefs if I don’t have too.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26535736 - 03/15/20 12:16 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shr00mEater said:
Similar.

I change my mind often enough that I don’t like to pick a label for my beliefs if I don’t have too.





I mean like trusting religious/mystical experiences I’ve had and then later saying that I believe in the existence of a god.  So I think different.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26536097 - 03/15/20 07:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pinkerton said:...
There's something out of the ordinary going on. I think you know that, rgv. :wink:



there is more that is outside of the ordinary, than inside of the ordinary.

still if you want your mind to stop making a racket you will have to learn to sit still, quietly and calmly.


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Offlinekitten6
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Shr00mEater]
    #26536137 - 03/15/20 08:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You are right in saying that currently in this day yes most scientists take their work seriously, most scientists are dedicated to progression in their field. Of course with peer review it makes it very difficult for bogus research to go anywhere amongst the academic community. However it isn't the scientifically unacquainted that go about reading peer review papers. They are more likely to fall into the trap reading dumb articles on word-press and other shit coming from self entitled arm chair scientists because the amount of verbal diarrhoea coming from these sources is honestly astonishing, and what's even more surprising is the amount of people who actually read this bullshit. So i correct myself, a lot things that unscientific people will read doesn't come from bullshit scientists rather it comes from bullshit bullshitters. Now I am not saying that a lot of scientists don't bullshit either, but rather than causing damage in their field instead it just slows progress, because even in peer review it takes time for shit to get processed.

A wise old man once said, an eminent scientist slows progression in their own field, a very eminent scientist slows progression in other fields as well. When a scientist becomes well known, it often fuels an ego in them and we all know that egos and scientific method don't go together.

And about money, true, large sums of money doesn't make research invalid often enough the research would be impossible in the first place without large sums of money. Especially as we advance forward, research becomes more and more advanced therefore more and more expensive. And I think that a product of this is the growing attraction between business and university. University management is shifting from the interests of science, to the interests of business. Suddenly when research costs become so high, the research is at the mercy of the businesses. Universities start to adopt a target based approach to research and education, and this is especially the case in the bigger universities where I live in Manchester where universities are beginning to be run like businesses, this goes to the point where university staff with their trade unions go out onto the streets and have little demonstrations every now and then. This is happening all over Europe at the moment apart from in France and Italy.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26536201 - 03/15/20 09:01 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
still if you want your mind to stop making a racket you will have to learn to sit still, quietly and calmly.



I've tried to do just that, even deep breathing and meditating. OC is creating the crazy running thoughts.

How much do you really know about this stuff, rgv?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26536315 - 03/15/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I know what I need to know to type on my keyboard,
it does not matter really what I know,
you know you have to try to sit calmly or you never will,
others cannot do it for you.

that is the mystery of self. that which nobody else can do.


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InvisibleShr00mEater
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Re: Yet another thread about atheism and God. But this time it's different. [Re: kitten6]
    #26536381 - 03/15/20 10:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, I don’t disagree, the academic system in the US is fucked too.

I was meaning for gathering and judging information for individual use.

As far as the point about the ignorant masses. I generally try not to concern myself for two major reasons.

1. I respect the individual too much to believe that they are not able to understand complex subjects. If I take a random person and assume they are more ignorant than I am, how can I also respect them? This also causes me not to feel compelled to rescue the sheeple, as some do. They aren’t sheeple. They are people, which is made of persons. Like, myself.

2. I don’t believe I know everything, or really too much of anything. Thus, I feel I would be presumptuous to judge a person or group of persons as incapable of the ability to think for themselves. Even when I think they are thinking wrongly... I also have thought wrongly many times, and probably still do. I can’t judge “them” without feeling a bit hypocritical.

Not saying you should be like me, just that it seems to work for me. :sun:

I think we might be way off topic too:

So, what do you think about this fad of “atheism” that’s been going around? People believe the strangest things, don’t they? Seems pretty ridiculous to me.  :grin:


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