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OfflineBackbone
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Are all the spores from a clone the same?
    #26473841 - 02/07/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

spores?:thumbup:


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OfflineGrowtech
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26473846 - 02/07/20 12:07 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No... spores are genetically different.  It would be like if an identical twin human could only produce clones of themselves when they have kids (also not the case).


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OfflineNichrome
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Growtech] * 1
    #26473855 - 02/07/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

All mushrooms are more than one organism. Spores are sexual reproduction.


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Nichrome]
    #26473872 - 02/07/20 12:24 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

spores arent reproduction, two spores are needed to germinate


Edited by Backbone (02/07/20 12:28 PM)


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26473897 - 02/07/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that even the tissue used to make a clone is made up of multiple genetics. That is why you have to make many transfers, and pay attention to sectoring, to get to an isolate.


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Growtech]
    #26473903 - 02/07/20 12:46 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

What exactly are you saying a clone is not a twin neither are spores


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone] * 2
    #26473918 - 02/07/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Cloned isolates would be twins.


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OfflineGrowtech
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26474071 - 02/07/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that even the tissue used to make a clone is made up of multiple genetics. That is why you have to make many transfers, and pay attention to sectoring, to get to an isolate.




If you get a clean tissue sample, normally it will be a single isolate.  "Normally" because mushrooms also do weird shit sometimes like a mushroom growing inside a mushroom.  But a clean tissue sample from a normal mushroom shouldn't have more than one strain going on.


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Growtech]
    #26474112 - 02/07/20 03:08 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

You may find this mean but i don't understand how you analogy applies. What are the identical twins in this case, because the two mushrooms in question are exact duplicates of eachother, this stems from my lack of knowledge surely because the spores cant be mere physical attributes if they were the spores would be the same, and i mean compared between the clone and the sample not the spores themselves. So obviously some reproductive process is happening during the growth of the mushroom to produce the spores. I like to try and understand myself before i just look up all the information so forgive me. Someone on this post (sorry typing a long ass post and don't want to restart) said that a clone isolate is (in your case) the identical twin so again this is just my lack of knowledge but id assume that means that different parts of mycelium even from a clone contain different genetics but are very similar? This would make sense because the other guy here suggested that a sample contains multiple genetics. Yeah so i didn't mean all the spores are the same on an INDIVIDUAL mushroom. I just meant compared to its source i.e. the clone sample, if that's what you meant. Like someone would have made that distinction, surely, that if i cloned a mushroom that eventually senescence would kick in if i was using that mushroom to make spore syringes because in my case ( i grow mushshrooms) i'm wondering what i have to do to be self sufficient do i make syringes from a non clone culture or can i just clone and do it that way?


Edited by Backbone (02/07/20 03:23 PM)


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26474141 - 02/07/20 03:24 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Mushrooms are made up of multiple strains, so if you clone one you’re growing all the strains found in your donor fruit, until you do a transfer which would narrow it down.

I think he meant a cloned monoculture would be like identical twins in that a mono has one strain so cloning it would just be continuing the same strain.

I’m pretty sure that’s how it all goes down.

Spores idk, I wondered the same recently when I grew my first clones.

I think they must be more diverse because I was told to take prints from a clone grow rather than clone a clone.


Edited by A.k.a (02/07/20 03:25 PM)


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone] * 1
    #26474155 - 02/07/20 03:31 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Backbone said:
spores arent reproduction, two spores are needed to germinate




Incorrect. A single spore will germinate fine.


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: FooMan]
    #26474169 - 02/07/20 03:44 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Are you sure cus i read that spores use some hooking mechanism i could just look it up i guess this clone shit is way more obscure i feel


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26474178 - 02/07/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: I'm sure. The reason we use the term "multispore" is because more than one spore is used. A culture can be created from a monospore (single) spore. Workman used monospore cultures in the creation of the APE strain. Typically done by diluting spore solutions, streaking them thin onto agar then using a microscope to isolate the culture.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: FooMan]
    #26474229 - 02/07/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?


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OfflineBackbone
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26474236 - 02/07/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

trusted cultivator


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26474284 - 02/07/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26474526 - 02/07/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Backbone said:
Are you sure cus i read that spores use some hooking mechanism i could just look it up i guess this clone shit is way more obscure i feel





This guy just questioned Fooman......... :eww:


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Sockadin]
    #26474546 - 02/07/20 07:23 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Trust no one. :rofl:


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: A.k.a] * 1
    #26474566 - 02/07/20 07:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mix when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it


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OfflineDoyledozo
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: FooMan]
    #26474573 - 02/07/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Ive been curious about all this myself. Is there any narrowing of genetics at all when you grow a cloned culture out to spores again?


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Doyledozo]
    #26474587 - 02/07/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Most of the strains around now are about as narrowed down as they will be as far as MS goes. After a few generations they are stabilized but MS is MS. You'll get occasionally get a red-headed stepchild in a family of blondes.


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: FooMan]
    #26474786 - 02/07/20 10:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So a single strain isolation and a monoculture are technically the same?

You said monoculture is a single spore germinated..
Wouldnt an isolated strain be essentially a mono at that point?

Is it possible to separate a single spore under a scope to noc agar?

I've seen - and + spore illustrations. Is this out dated information?

When mix variety are created, is it easier with isolated strains? Do they at that point need - and + to interact or am I out to lunch.

Sorry for the amount of questions. You seem knowledgeable.


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Offlinemagicschoolbus
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26474843 - 02/08/20 12:13 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BlueTryptoYoshi said:
So a single strain isolation and a monoculture are technically the same?




mono = one ... one culture
single strain isolate = one culture

Quote:


You said monoculture is a single spore germinated..
Wouldnt an isolated strain be essentially a mono at that point? 




If a single spore germinated, then yes, there would only be one culture actively growing, the single spore being the point of origin for the whole culture. If only one spore germinated, then you know the mycelium contains the same genetic makeup throughout the culture. If 10 spores germinated, then there would be 10 strains growing inside of the culture.. assuming all the spores are next to eachother/piled on top. If 10 spores germinated all a few mm away from eachother but weren't touching, yes they'd each be a monoculture, but once they grew over top eachother, then the whole plate of agar would represent a single cultures, with multiple strains inside of it.

Quote:


Is it possible to separate a single spore under a scope to noc agar?




Yes, it's definitely possible. We just told you there has been members of Shroomery who have done this to start experimental strains. I don't know exactly how, but I'd imagine it involves very tiny pipettes, maybe a special type of solution in tiny amounts that "suck" up nearby microscopic organisms like an oil or suspension. I think if you were to get a 1cc drop of water with spores in it, you could keep diluting or concentration the solution to narrow down the amount of spores found in the dilution/concentration

Quote:


I've seen - and + spore illustrations. Is this out dated information?



I'm not familiar, never seen it.

Quote:


When mix variety are created, is it easier with isolated strains? Do they at that point need - and + to interact or am I out to lunch.



Do you mean crossing strains when you say "mix variety"? I believe crossing strains utilizes mycelium with a special characteristic  that allows it to clamp to other mycelium... I don't really know much about this because I've only read about it a handful of times.  I forget what the "characteristic" is exactly. For example, if you put B+ and PE mycelium on a agar plate, they're just gonna grow around eachother and there will be a obvious border where they avoid eachother. When mycelium is "compatible" between two different cultures, they will clamp to eachother, and will not grow around.


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Edited by magicschoolbus (02/08/20 12:13 AM)


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: magicschoolbus]
    #26475020 - 02/08/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)


Or does this go back to Paul Stamets being wrong, outdated etc.

Wow thanks for answering my questions!
Appreciated so much.


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Offlineiwh678
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: FooMan]
    #26475043 - 02/08/20 07:20 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




This is correct a monokaryon will not fruit. Mushrooms are the sexual reproductive structures of fungi and it requires a dikaryotic system to form.

Fungal sex is really weird you could take an entire graduate level course on the subject.


Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mix when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it




Spores are nothing like plant seeds. Plant seeds contain all of the genetic information of the organism while spores contain half because they are the product of meiosis. Spores would be better compared to pollen or sperm. I think that you know that though and that's kinda what you are describing, but that analogy could really confuse some people.


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475080 - 02/08/20 07:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


This is correct a monokaryon will not fruit. Mushrooms are the sexual reproductive structures of fungi and it requires a dikaryotic system to form.

Fungal sex is really weird you could take an entire graduate level course on the subject.




So then you need 2 compatable spores. They can each grow mycelium, then the mycelium of each compatible spore needs to do there thing and fruit... .. This illustration is true then? Not outdated?

So if one were to isolate a single spore under a scope, it would not give fruits? That's boggling.

I think anything microscopic is probably more baffling than we expect.
I love this info.. dont stop lol


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475081 - 02/08/20 07:53 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iwh678 said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




This is correct a monokaryon will not fruit. Mushrooms are the sexual reproductive structures of fungi and it requires a dikaryotic system to form.

Fungal sex is really weird you could take an entire graduate level course on the subject.


Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mix when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it




Spores are nothing like plant seeds. Plant seeds contain all of the genetic information of the organism while spores contain half because they are the product of meiosis. Spores would be better compared to pollen or sperm. I think that you know that though and that's kinda what you are describing, but that analogy could really confuse some people.




The seed analogy explains how it germinates alone but sperm and pollen doesnt.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26475092 - 02/08/20 08:00 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

But it will also confuse people. If you tell someone who knows next to nothing about mycology that a spore is like a see they will assume a spore sprouts and becomes a mushroom.

Quote:

BlueTryptoYoshi said:
Quote:


This is correct a monokaryon will not fruit. Mushrooms are the sexual reproductive structures of fungi and it requires a dikaryotic system to form.

Fungal sex is really weird you could take an entire graduate level course on the subject.




So then you need 2 compatable spores. They can each grow mycelium, then the mycelium of each compatible spore needs to do there thing and fruit... .. This illustration is true then? Not outdated?

So if one were to isolate a single spore under a scope, it would not give fruits? That's boggling.

I think anything microscopic is probably more baffling than we expect.
I love this info.. dont stop lol




A lot of people have put misinformation on here because they have diluted their spores and assumed they ended up with a monokaryon. The problem is spores like to stick together. It is much harder to do than a lot of people here realize.


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475100 - 02/08/20 08:07 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iwh678 said:
But it will also confuse people. If you tell someone who knows next to nothing about mycology that a spore is like a see they will assume a spore sprouts and becomes a mushroom.





lol, a sperm that can germinate and colonise a substrate without an egg........ Simples......... I'll get my coat


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Edmunter]
    #26475121 - 02/08/20 08:28 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Where did I say that?

A spore can't complete its life cycle without another just like a sperm can't without an egg. They are both they are both haploids and seed is a diploid.


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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475125 - 02/08/20 08:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mix when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it





Quote:

iwh678 said:
Where did I say that?

A spore can't complete its life cycle without another just like a sperm can't without an egg. They are both they are both haploids and seed is a diploid.



Not confusing at all..........


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475129 - 02/08/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Ok that’s what I thought, but there’s such an incredible amount of information to take in on this site it’s easy to mix things up.

I think In that quote when I said fruit he took it as germinate is all.

No kidding about taking a master class on fungi, sometimes I feel like with the amount of time and studying I put in on here I should just be back in college getting credits.


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Edited by A.k.a (02/08/20 08:39 AM)


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OfflineBlueTryptoYoshi
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26475140 - 02/08/20 08:45 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah this is nuts.

So back up a bit. 

Can anyone show me a link where I can find pictures of a grown out mushroom monoculture/isolation fruited and describe why this is valuable or a popular goal?

I see many people talk about the task of isolating strong strains, making a single spore isolation a goal.
Disregaurding the chance they could have a questionable grow of potency, size, weight until they completed the mycelium life cycle.. grow mushrooms etc...
Wouldnt a ms grow typically be they easiest way to practically guarantee great fruits? I'm just wondering.. can anyone show me some pictures. Google doesn't really understand the vocabulary.



This looks much more complicated than imagined.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26475145 - 02/08/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think in that case they’re doing it from a clone, so it would be a monoculture that can produce mushrooms.

I’ve seen people use a needle to pick up a single spore under the scope and germ it to get a monoculture with the goal of introducing two of them together to form a fruiting strain or cross.

I’ve heard figures like only ten percent or less of monocultures are worth growing because like you said there’s only one strain so if it’s slow or weak that’s all you get.

Ms is more like taking the average of all the strains rather than a crapshoot on just one.


I think.


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Edited by A.k.a (02/08/20 08:52 AM)


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26475152 - 02/08/20 08:55 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Edmunter said:
Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mi
x when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it





Quote:

iwh678 said:
Where did I say that?

A spore can't complete its life cycle without another just like a sperm can't without an egg. They are both they are both haploids and seed is a diploid.



Not confusing at all..........




If you don't see how comparing a spore to seed while on the topic of if a monokaryon can fruit would confuse a laymen then I'm at a loss.

Quote:

BlueTryptoYoshi said:
Yeah this is nuts.

So back up a bit. 

Can anyone show me a link where I can find pictures of a grown out mushroom monoculture/isolation fruited and describe why this is valuable or a popular goal?

I see many people talk about the task of isolating strong strains, making a single spore isolation a goal.
Disregaurding the chance they could have a questionable grow of potency, size, weight until they completed the mycelium life cycle.. grow mushrooms etc...
Wouldnt a ms grow typically be they easiest way to practically guarantee great fruits? I'm just wondering.. can anyone show me some pictures. Google doesn't really understand the vocabulary.



This looks much more complicated than imagined.




Imagine it like this. A sperm and an egg need to fuse to create a human. Fungi are the same way, but they do not have genders and they're "sperm" (spores) can form hyphal networks to seek each other out.


Again a monokaryon can't fruit. Anyone who claims to have friuted one actually had a dikaryon.


Edited by iwh678 (02/08/20 08:57 AM)


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26475163 - 02/08/20 09:07 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:


I’ve seen people use a needle to pick up a single spore under the scope and germ it to get a monoculture with the goal of introducing two of them together to form a fruiting strain or 




You seen this?
So my further back question was valid? It's easier to cross strain by having 2 isolated spores of each variety.

Assuming they're the compatable types. I'm understanding there is multiple types of spores. Not just - + ?

What a rabbit hole of a morning


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26475194 - 02/08/20 09:30 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I have no idea about negative positive.

And by seen it I mean in a thread here where the guy had a camera rigged to his scope. It’s pretty cool. Also I think that’s how pasty made rw, with single spores.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26475214 - 02/08/20 09:51 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Will a single spore produce fruits, can you make a ms syringe from a clone without senescence? Do you need to grow out multiple strains then get a print instead?


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475228 - 02/08/20 09:59 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Ms from clone is fine.

I was told the way to develop a clone is clone-grow-print-grow-clone-print.

I’m pretty sure single spores can’t fruit


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26475231 - 02/08/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

sounds sensible


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475233 - 02/08/20 10:02 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

All right to clear things up just a little bit or hey maybe to muddy things whatever lol.

monoculture is not the same as a mono-karyon

Mono culture is an isolated strain,

a strain is formed when 2 or more germinated spores mate to form a dikaryon, which is required to form A fruiting body of a mushroom which can probably (science is still iffy on this) contain multiple “strains” than can be isolated down into mono-cultures but they will always contain some of the genetic information they shared using clamp connections.

A monokaryon is a single spore that has germinated, and will mate with any compatible mono- or dikatyotic mycelium it comes with contact with, and using clamp connections will share genetic information. This can never be returned to a monokayrotic state, it is now a dikaryon for the rest of its life.

is a monokaryon also technically a “monoculture” well yes but in this situation it is confusing to call it that because we typically use mono culture to mean an isolated strain.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: AyePlus]
    #26475269 - 02/08/20 10:35 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Monostrain!


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: AyePlus]
    #26475279 - 02/08/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Don't mean to change the subject because this is equally as interesting but see i'm interested in thinking about why a clone does not have the exact same spores as its source, i know that a mushroom is male and female in a certain sense so during its fruiting stages some kind of reproduction is PROBABLY happening to produce RANDOM spores so a single mushroom probably has MULTIPLE GENETICS even in a clone. I also found it really interesting to think that if all that is true, then if i cloned to agar and transferred enough times id essentially be isolating in reverse since the quickest way to isolate a strain is to clone and its just a way of approaching isolation from the other direction so to speak. The other way being using a ms syringe on agar then transferring to more and more dishes. The key to remember is that a clone of a mushroom is not like if we cloned a human which would, by definition, be the EXACT same organism minus all the environmental influences lol if spores were nothing more than a physical feature on a mushroom then by the definition we use for cloned humans, the spores would be exactly the same lol clone isnt really the right word is what im trying to say


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475349 - 02/08/20 11:35 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Its really interesting to make the analogy between humans and mushrooms, mushrooms dont need to be ingested to teach you things about yourself and reality. A human needs another body to reproduce, a mushroom's priorities are not consumed by sex, instead reproduction is merely a part of its growth cycle. If you clone a human, in order to reproduce he/she needs a mate. If you clone a mushroom it will produce different offspring each time. I keep bringing this up, and i guess its something subconscious, just me seeking significance...but its really easy to think that if i cloned a human he'd by definition have the exact same physical features and therefore that a "cloned" mushroom would have the exact same offspring if its spores could be seen as a physical feature, so common sense is telling me that they undergo reproduction during its growth. Like worms are hermaphrodites but do they still have to interact with themselves to produce more worms, a mushrooms way of interacting with itself is just by simply growing. Really weird stuff to think about yall, i suppose there's some dude that loves worms and cherishes them and wouldn't see the significance in anything im saying. Mushrooms are like ghosts in the world of living organisms.


Edited by Backbone (02/08/20 11:41 AM)


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475355 - 02/08/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

A clone of an isolated strain will have the exact same genetics. This is why its a clone. There will be no variation without mutation.
The reason spores are different goes down to how they form.
When two monokaryons mate [when two spores mate] they share their nuclei, but then each cell has both nuclei, they do not fuse. Its like if a human sperm went into an egg and then just sat there on the couch like 'screw it, I don't have to do anything yet' and the resulting human was made of eggs with a sperm inside.
Then, when a mushroom forms and tries to produce spores, that is when the two parent nuclei fuse and then split back apart. This mixes up the genes into new random combinations for each spore. That is why spores are genetically different, each is a random selection of the many genes of both of the parents of the mushroom that made the spore.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: AyePlus]
    #26475362 - 02/08/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

:brainscream:
Wow


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Elrik]
    #26475383 - 02/08/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

lmao im just proud i somehow came to that conclusion whilst navigating all my hippy thoughts mannnnnnnnn. Why would you ever isolate a strain instead of just cloning if you experience no senescence when you use the spores, you're basically guaranteeing a decent fruit body each time, are they just approaching the different priorities from opposite ends hmmmm


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475413 - 02/08/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting discussion. I spent hours last night looking for microscope pics of germinating spores and reading about the process.
Found there is 'asexual reproduction' but i guess i'm wonder if that results in fruiting or just growing more myc?

edit: maybe this different all together because its 'cup fungi'



Edited by C12ShroomMan (02/08/20 01:13 PM)


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: C12ShroomMan]
    #26475432 - 02/08/20 12:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Sounds like both according to that diagram, also you can only make so many transfers before mycelium stops colonizing, in the wild its different, obviously.


Edited by Backbone (02/08/20 12:53 PM)


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26475573 - 02/08/20 02:06 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Many fungi can reproduce asexually, but but its not going to be common in macrofungi. And encase you were wondering P. cubensis definitely does not. I'm not aware of any that do, but there are always oddballs. If you want a real mind bender look into the reproduction of lichen. Lichen are the result of obligate symbiosis between a fungi, a lichen and/or a bacteria. Because of this they have some truly funky reproductive strategies.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: iwh678]
    #26476426 - 02/09/20 04:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

iwh678 said:
Quote:

Edmunter said:
Quote:

FooMan said:
Quote:

A.k.a said:
One spore will germ but can’t fruit right? It needs to link with another compatible one?




No. Think of a spore more like a plant seed. The seed sprouts and you get a plant. When a spore sprouts it grows into mycelium that colonizes the substrate it germinated in. If its a single spore you get a monoculture that'll have the genetics of that single spore. But unlike plant seeds that'll grow a field of separate plants when you germinate them, the mycelium from several spores will all link up into a network of mycelium and you'll get mixed genetics of all the spores in the mi
x when it fruits. While mycelium from the spores can "mate" in the sense that their genes are combined they dont need to mate like a human egg & sperm do in order to reproduce.

This is a super simplified explanation but thats the jist of it





Quote:

iwh678 said:
Where did I say that?

A spore can't complete its life cycle without another just like a sperm can't without an egg. They are both they are both haploids and seed is a diploid.



Not confusing at all..........




If you don't see how comparing a spore to seed while on the topic of if a monokaryon can fruit would confuse a laymen then I'm at a loss.







Im saying using the analogy of seed or seamen is confusing if 1 spore alone can germinate.

I think my sarcasm was lost in the last post I made.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Edmunter] * 1
    #26476508 - 02/09/20 07:23 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Cubensis makes spores in the gills.

Each spore germinates it will make a monokaryon.
Monolaryotic mycelium has one nucleus in the cell.

Monokaryons seek each other out.

If compatible they mate to form dikaryotic mycelium

The result of two monokaryons successfully mating is a single strain. The dikaryotic mycelium has two nuclei per cell.

Monokaryotic mycelium will not fruit. Dikaryotic mycelium will.

Dikaryotic mycelium will further fuse with other strains of its own species via anastomosis

A single strain isolate is the product of only two spores/monokaryons.

A monoculture is one culture of fingi. It can be a single strain or many. Monocultures don't have to be isolates.

For example
Clones may be made of many strains these strains together would be monoculture but not a single strain isolate.

Monoculture = multi strain OR single strain isolates.

Single strain isolates are more compelling when used for research than using multi strain cultures. Even if the same multi strain culture is used it's not as compelling as using the same single strain isolate.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26476596 - 02/09/20 08:54 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:



Clones may be made of many strains these strains together would be monoculture but not a single strain isolate.

Monoculture = multi strain OR single strain isolates.

Single strain isolates are more compelling when used for research than using multi strain cultures. Even if the same multi strain culture is used it's not as compelling as using the same single strain isolate.




Okay awesome. I really understand this better.
I get how a clone is a mono culture. It's one fruit... makes sense. So would there be no way to consiously isolate down to a monoculture? Or is this a microscope type task, yadda yadda

I do have a question...

Not trying to go off topic but...

If I'm going to create a clone, would it be beneficial to take many clone pieces from multiple areas of that one mushroom/stem. THEN once it grows out cut the entire outer circumference of all the mycelium so that I'm ensuring I collect all strains that create that fruit entirely.
I always see everyone just grabs 1 piece then doesn't take in count ungathered sectors while inoculating grain. I feel like you would want all the strains you can get to duplicate its genetic make up as much as possible.
Would this be why so many people have not cloned mushrooms successfully with perfect canopy duplicate monocultures of that selected clone?





Or is that not neccesary?
Wouldnt you think leaving strains behind result in not being able to properly clone the selected fruit.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26476626 - 02/09/20 09:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BlueTryptoYoshi said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:



Clones may be made of many strains these strains together would be monoculture but not a single strain isolate.

Monoculture = multi strain OR single strain isolates.

Single strain isolates are more compelling when used for research than using multi strain cultures. Even if the same multi strain culture is used it's not as compelling as using the same single strain isolate.




Okay awesome. I really understand this better.
I get how a clone is a mono culture. It's one fruit... makes sense. So would there be no way to consiously isolate down to a monoculture? Or is this a microscope type task, yadda yadda

I do have a question...

Not trying to go off topic but...

If I'm going to create a clone, would it be beneficial to take many clone pieces from multiple areas of that one mushroom/stem. THEN once it grows out cut the entire outer circumference of all the mycelium so that I'm ensuring I collect all strains that create that fruit entirely.
I always see everyone just grabs 1 piece then doesn't take in count ungathered sectors while inoculating grain. I feel like you would want all the strains you can get to duplicate its genetic make up as much as possible.
Would this be why so many people have not cloned mushrooms successfully with perfect canopy duplicate monocultures of that selected clone?





Or is that not neccesary?
Wouldnt you think leaving strains behind result in not being able to properly clone the selected fruit.




Its an interesting question.  For me id rather clone 2 different mushrooms and take 2 samples from each rather than take just 4 samples from 1.    The other stuff is overthinking it IMHO.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Edmunter]
    #26476647 - 02/09/20 09:25 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Your clone should be homogeneous. So taking a small wedge from a plate probably isn't a problem the majority of the time.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26476669 - 02/09/20 09:41 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So you're saying any piece and size from a selected mushroom shall contain all strains needed to create a clone canopy, as well as on agar, there are no sectors to isolate as it is a monoculture, so it does not matter where the transfer comes from?


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26476754 - 02/09/20 10:31 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think most MS cultures can put out a canopy and it has WAY more time do with conditions than genetics.

It seems cultures can eventually break apart but that's just interpretation of what people see happening on dishes. Could just be morphological differences


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26476819 - 02/09/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Lots of awesome information in this thread.  I've read up on cloning and isolates and I just can't seem to get a full understanding of it. 

So you can you can make a mono culture.  A mono culture can be two single strains of monokaryotic mycelium that have bonded and this is a true isolate. You can also clone a mushroom and you will have multiple dikaryotic strains in your culture. This is also a monoculture as it will produce fruit with the same genetics every time?

So assuming I understand the concept.  Will cloned cultures slowly change or stop fruiting over time?  Or could you just keep transferring the same mycelium from a master plate and continuously to get mushrooms with the same characteristics? Is that what a variety is, a stable monoculture that has been distributed?


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: unibrowscowl]
    #26476839 - 02/09/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think most people with a true isolate would still get varying performance and some people wouldn't.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: unibrowscowl]
    #26476852 - 02/09/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

A clone has the same genetics but you can still take a spore print from a clone, mushrooms undergo reproduction during growth to produce different offspring. Havent cloned yet but my instincts tell me youd experience senescence from repeated cloning, also what i read on here hehe lol


Edited by Backbone (02/09/20 12:28 PM)


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26476887 - 02/09/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

This is so interesting. My questions came from a situation im in currently. Have a ksss print I got from one source then saw someone selling swabs from the squat mutants. If the spores from a clone are MS again I should expect similar results from both sources correct?  I suppose what Im really trying to learn is how certain phenos are isolated and stabilized. Intensive "blind" agar work growing out different sectors until the correct one is isolated?


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26476914 - 02/09/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
I think most people with a true isolate would still get varying performance and some people wouldn't.




This answers so many questions I've had.  Thank you.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26476921 - 02/09/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

its a really interesting question for us noobs yoshi, id assume the answer has to do with what happens when you clone a piece of tissue, i think were confused about the multiple strain part, i mean i still dont know what is happening when you clone a mushroom are we extracting mycelium or dna or both? is it the dna thats programmed to grow mycelium? if the tissue is mycelium IT WOULD contain multiple strains, but i dont think that sounds right. Also think about this couldn't i just take two spores to create a single strain? instead of making an innumerable amount of transfers. It seems to me you make two choices, select for the body type via cloning or select for mycelium via isolation. See i want to say id prefer to clone but neither way seems like its more proficient than the other, i could clone get spores than get shit genetics for the fruits, or i could isolate and get both great mycelium and great fruit bodies until i cloned took spores and got shit genetics. The other question is whether or not all of the possible dna of a single mushroom is allotted between every spore. Thats really the million dollar question


Edited by Backbone (02/09/20 01:49 PM)


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26476939 - 02/09/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

There are no guarantees in mycology or any other science.


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Nichrome]
    #26477051 - 02/09/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

ok so i think my longs ass posts came from a simple lack of knowledge that i wouldn't have known if someone hadn't posted a diagram on here so this is what i gather. Two spores containing less dna then the parent(s) interact to form mycelium which interacts with the mycelium from two other spores to produce a fruit body and a clone is exactly that, the same exact genetic information as the parent, not including any genetic mutations. Or do the spores have the same amount of dna but how the f would that work for ms syringes which are made from prints because all the fruits would look the same? lmaoooooooooooo :thumbup: im not drunk i promise


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26477117 - 02/09/20 03:32 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

They explained it like 4 times.
A single spore can make mycelium. (Monokaryotic)
This mycelium cannot fruit by itself.
It interacts with other compatable Monokaryotic then it becomes dikaryotic. This is now a single strain culture. This can fruit. It can also interact and create more strains within a single culture.

I think spores are always just spores. Carrying unknown genetics. Pretty sure.


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Edited by BlueTryptoYoshi (02/09/20 03:38 PM)


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26477126 - 02/09/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

oh yeah true


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26477148 - 02/09/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Each spore contains one full set genes (for example, lets say there's only four genes in the species: gene A, gene B, gene C, and gene D. each spore has one copy of each of those genes). Say two spores germinate forming two monokaryote myceliums. Monokaryote #1 contain the genes A1, B1, C1, and D1. Monokaryote #2 have genes A2, B2, C2, and D2. The two monokaryons meet, they hit it off, they fuse to become a single strain of dikaryotic mycelium.

Dikaryotic mycelium have two nuclei per cell, one from each of the parent monokaryon. So now the dikaryotic mycelium grow, each cell have two nuceli, one nucleus with gene A1, B1, C1, and D1, and the other nucelus with A2, B2, C2, and D2.

When this mycelium fruit and make spores, the two nuceli combine. And then are split (meiosis) to produce spores, each with a full set of genes. The thing is, the split won't be where every spore has either (A1, B1, C1, D1) or (A2, B2, C2, D2); some crossing over can happen and you end up with some spores that have for example A1, B2, C1, D1... or A2, B2, C1, D1... etc etc. Like a spore might get some of its genes derive from monokaryote #1 and others from monokarote #2. And now keep in mind that there's where more htan just 4 genes in a species... its more like thousands of genes. And you end up with billions of possibilities in the genetic make up of the spores, so even if you're dealing with a true single-strain isolate, no the spores will not be identical


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Hans Wermhat]
    #26477167 - 02/09/20 04:07 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So technically a mushroom only has two offspring just repeated? Can two spores with the same genes match up? and if two with half of the other two nuclei match up isnt that technically a clone?


Edited by Backbone (02/09/20 04:17 PM)


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26477199 - 02/09/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No,
Yes If sexually compatible ,
A clone is strictly when you clone a mushroom


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26477202 - 02/09/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

i give up


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Backbone]
    #26477205 - 02/09/20 04:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Read a basic biology introduction book. Especially the part about meiosis
Or google tetrad analysis in yeast. Mushrooms spores are much like this


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: BlueTryptoYoshi]
    #26477274 - 02/09/20 05:07 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

How long can a monokaryon live/grow without encountering another monokaryon? Can a monokaryon fuse with a dikaryon?


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Bowman]
    #26477283 - 02/09/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Forever, provided the right conditions I would assume. Whether or not they fuse, they can surely exchange linear transferable gene clusters.:heart:


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Bowman]
    #26477286 - 02/09/20 05:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bowman said:
How long can a monokaryon live/grow without encountering another monokaryon? Can a monokaryon fuse with a dikaryon?



Probably a very long time but maybe not. Also probably depends on species.

Probably. Sometimes different species accidentally fuse so I would say the kind of fusing your proposed is somewhere between rare to commonplace


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26477349 - 02/09/20 05:59 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

:header:


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26477389 - 02/09/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Re: different species accidentally fuse...(!) I have to ask, can this lead to intrageneric hybrids? Are there hybrids of Psylocybe species?


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Re: Are all the spores from a clone the same? [Re: Bowman]
    #26477419 - 02/09/20 06:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Different species wouldn't be compatible. That's part of what makes them different species. There might be a few exception with some close relatives, but I doubt it.


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